Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eldariel 07-25-07, 11:08 PM	Well, Arcane Archer is one of personal favourite Prestige Classes since I like Elves, I like Archers and I like Magic, but the particular class just feels horribly lacking with its caster-geared abilities and no casting progression, horribly low-DC Arrow of Death, no Will-save progression (for a friggin' caster) and once-per-day sitiuational abilities that take a Standard Action. Not only that, but the naturally advancing ability of enhanced arrows, while flavourful, is almost totally dead weight thanks to the existence of Greater Magic Weapon. So, I decided to remake the class for a game I'm planning on in future, I'd like your takes on how to handle each ability and if the class is actually too good now. Anyway, here's where I ended up at: Requirements: Race: Elf or Half-Elf BAB: +6 Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow or Shortbow) Able to cast 1st level Arcane spells. Skillpoints: 4+Int per level. Class skills: Climb, Concentration, Craft, Handle Animals, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Geography), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, Use Rope BAB Fort Ref Will CL Ability Lvl 1 1 0 2 2 1 Arrow +1 Lvl 2 2 0 3 3 1 Seeker Arrow, max ½ class lvl Lvl 3 3 1 3 3 2 Arrow +2 Lvl 4 4 1 4 4 2 Imbue Arrow Lvl 5 5 1 4 4 3 Arrow +3, Uncanny Dodge Lvl 6 6 2 5 5 3 Phase Arrow, max ½ class lvl Lvl 7 7 2 5 5 4 Arrow +4 Lvl 8 8 2 6 6 4 Hail of Arrows, ½ class lvl/day Lvl 9 9 3 6 6 5 Arrow +5 Lvl 10 10 3 7 7 5 Arrow of Death, DC 10+Mod+Class, Evasion Enhance Arrows: At every odd level, every arrow Arcane Archer shoots is of the mentioned enhancement bonus. These can't be passed to others, once Arcane Archer shoots an arrow, if she so pleases, the arrow is enhanced as listed. Seeker Arrow: Negates concealment and cover, hits a known target as long as there're no unpassable obstacles, such as target in closed room, stopping it. Arcane Archer can enhance any arrow into a Seeker Arrow in a minute, but can only support ½ her Arcane Archer level at once. These Seeker Arrows only work for the Arcane Archer who created them. When a Seeker Arrow leaves Arcane Archer's possession, the enhancement dissipates in one hour. Imbue Arrow: Standard action to throw a Standard Actionable spell with Bow's range. Phase Arrow: Negates concealment, cover and AC, goes through all non-magical barriers in the way. Arcane Archer can enhance any arrow into a Phase Arrow in 10 minutes, but can only support ½ her Arcane Archer level at once. These Phase Arrows only work for the Arcane Archer who created them. When a Phase Arrow leaves Arcane Archer's possession, the enhancement dissipates in one round. Hail of Arrows: Attacks all targets in range, up to max. of Arcane Archer class level. Arrow of Death: Slays target unless target succeeds in Fortitude Save against DC 10+Arcane Archer class level+Arcane Archer's modifier to her primary casting stat (Int for Wizards, Cha for Sorcerers, etc.). If an Arcane Archer has multiple Arcane casting classes that qualify her for Arcane Archer, she can use whichever she prefers. If the save succeeds, target takes extra 4d8 damage instead. If the save fails, target is slain immediately. An Arcane Archer can only support one Arrow of Death at a time and it takes an hour to create a new one. The Arrow of Death only works for the Arcane Archer who created it. When Arrow of Death leaves Arcane Archer's possession, the enhancement dissipates in one round. Basically, gave her half Caster Level-progression (plus bonus on level 10, else not enough of an incentive to take it at all in once/day ability, that's only so-so, especially for a caster), moved good save from Fort to Will, made Phase and Seeker Arrows pre-prepared like Arrow of Death, with half class level maximum for Arrows in possession at any given time (they only work for the AA too, like Arrow of Death) and gave Arrow of Death a healthy bump in the DC with Intelligence-modifier added (after all, it IS magical). Hail of Arrows is a pimpy ability, but once per day just doesn't do anything, it's even trumped by feats like Whirlwind Attack with some high-reach weapon and that's unlimited, so turned Hail into ½ class level ability too. Has a nice progression of different arrow every other 'ability-level' and a different way to attack every other (Imbue, Hail). I kept the Enhance Arrow in, since it IS flavourful and handy if you're stuck without Greater Magic Weapon-mage (for example, captured alone, or some such) and can't fit it to your own spells, not to mention, great once you go Epic. It ain't broken, but not totally useless either. Skills chosen keeping an eye for 'magical wilderness sentry'-theme. Int probably so high that don't dare to give any more than 4 skillpoints per level.So, what do you think? Good enough to be playable? Too good? Somehow stupid? The oddball extra caster level at last bothers someone? Do I need to actually playtest 'em? Comments would be nice. I think it's playable right now, and it'd be nice to get either a confirmation or a denial.
Neff 07-25-07, 11:17 PM	I've always wanted to play an Arcane Archer, but the class as it is now is just too weak compared to all the fancy new prestige classes we have nowadays. The only thing I would change is to base the Death Arrow's DC on the user's spellcasting ability modifier (Int for wizards, Cha for sorcerer, etc.), just to prevent non-wizards from getting shortchanged on it. I also kinda have a problem with the racial prerequisite, but that's just me. Good job otherwise.
Eldariel 07-25-07, 11:23 PM	Well, I love the Elf-only flavour although I can see where you're coming from (but since Arcane Archers represent Elven Elite Troops, I'm sticking to it, especially as it allows the skill selection to make sense). Good point about the primary casting stat, fixed it. A crude oversight on my part. I too am quite happy with how it looks at the present. I'd actually love to play one myself now, and it isn't comparatively probaly stronger than...say Spellsword or Abjurant Champion (actually, Abjurant Champion probably still washes her 10-0. That just means that all the characters have to be Abjurant Champion>Arcane Archers :P).
StevenO 07-25-07, 11:40 PM	I'd say the standard Arcane Archer is generally fine. The only things I'd change on the original are making the special arrows part of a "trick pool" so you could use them more than once per day but not increase the total number of tricks used. The other change would be the Slaying Arrow DC which should be higher; the DC = 10 + class level + modifier isn't bad but I'd actually use the Dex Modifier instead of a casting modifier as this reflect putting that arrow it the exact spot to hurt the most. If you want to continue a casting progression just go into one of the other "Gish" classes. The AA never has been good for the caster but more for the ranged character who has some hint of magic. The best ways to get the magic for this class are usually the secondary casters who also have some fighting ability. One last thing, the alternate PrC is missing all those feats that should be required for AA or are you trying to make another very simple DIP class for a gish build to use.
SmiloDan 07-26-07, 01:46 AM	Here's what I've done in the past to update it. All the prereqs and stuff the same. LEVEL ABILITY 1. +1 Arrows 2. Imbue Arrow, +1 caster level 3. +2 Arrows, Silver Arrows 4. Seeker Arrow, +1 caster level 5. +3 Arrows, Aligned Arrows 6. Phase Arrows, +1 caster level 7. +4 Arrows, Cold Iron Arrows 8. Hail of Arrows, +1 caster level 9. +5 Arrows, Adamantine Arrows 10. Arrow of Death DC 10 + level + Dex mod, +1 caster level At every even level, caster level increases by 1. At 3rd level and every odd level thereafter, the arrows used by the Arcane Archer can bypass DR as if they had the listed material and/or alignment type. The Aligned Arrows must match the AL of the AA, so a N one is kind of disadvantaged, but the CG and LG ones do OK.
Eldariel 07-26-07, 05:58 AM	I'd say the standard Arcane Archer is generally fine. The only things I'd change on the original are making the special arrows part of a "trick pool" so you could use them more than once per day but not increase the total number of tricks used. The other change would be the Slaying Arrow DC which should be higher; the DC = 10 + class level + modifier isn't bad but I'd actually use the Dex Modifier instead of a casting modifier as this reflect putting that arrow it the exact spot to hurt the most. If you want to continue a casting progression just go into one of the other "Gish" classes. The AA never has been good for the caster but more for the ranged character who has some hint of magic. The best ways to get the magic for this class are usually the secondary casters who also have some fighting ability. Well, the thing is, her Imbue Arrow-ability is entirely useless without some actual spells worth casting. Also, if you've taken a level of Sorcerer/Wizard and start to advance a character who enhances all her arrows, wouldn't you want actual spells to go with it? I sure would. Thanks for the feedback though. I think the Arrow of Death needs to be keyed off the casting stat since it's clearly a magical arrow as you have to take a day to prepare, so it isn't precision that's killing the target, it's magic. I was thinking of a trickpool, but it just feels more eloquent to have actual enhanced arrows in your bag of tricks coupled with abilities every other level. And compared to any Gish-PrC (Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Phantom Knight, etc.), Arcane Archer always feels lacking. I couldn't come up with a single reason to pick her up when pondering an Archer-build on CO. Her main ability is eclipsed by a level 3 spell, her secondary abilities are all but useless with Imbue having no spells to use due to the lack of caster level advancement, Seeker being a standard action, phase being a standard action and Arrow of Death having a ridiculously low DC for 17th level attack, one that isn't pumpable by any means. One last thing, the alternate PrC is missing all those feats that should be required for AA or are you trying to make another very simple DIP class for a gish build to use. Another oversight. Fixing. SmiloDan: Looks real good. I opted to add more uses to the previous abilities instead, making them scaling by class level, and just now I added some new abilities I think fit the flavour (Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, Evasion trying to replace the lost CL on level 10). I was also thinking of making Imbue Arrow have two functions: the present function, and making 'Spell Storing Arrows' to storage, like my present Phase Arrow and Seeker Arrow, so you could essentially use Magic in lieu of your attacks for greater efficiency. Or perhaps shove that to level 10 too?
The_Shaman 07-26-07, 06:53 AM	I do not think evasion or UD fits them, really. Better give them an ability to improve their archery or casting, and save evasion for the classes that need to go into acrobatics more often. An ability to weaken the use of concealment, say by negating any magical concealment (it is an arcane archer, and we are talking a lvl 10 ability) can be much better imo. Or, if you do not mind stacking a lot of modifiers, give them an additional feature to add enhancements to their arrows if the +x figure represents only attack/damage bonus. You could have the enhancements picked for the day, with a longish period required for change (10 minutes to an hour) or with a short period (1 full-round action) For example: - level 3: metalline : - level 5: flaming/cold/caustic, X bane (only for creatures the AA has on their favored enemy list, if you want to spice it up a bit) - lvl 7: holy/unholy/anarchic/axiomatic/ X burst - lvl 9: brilliant energy / splitting - lvl 10: An arcane archer can put two enhancements, rather than one. (alternatively, have it as separate pool of points that one can allocate, and rate enhancements from +1 to +3) I believe that this is a powerful ability - even before lvl 10, as arrows and bows both can carry abilities - and would advise you to weaken the spellcasting progression if you include it to 3/10 or 4/10 at most. Think of the poor Dragon Disciples, who don't even get full BAB.
Eldariel 07-26-07, 07:11 AM	I suppose I could. I'd still want to fit Arrow of Death there somewhere in a fixed version. And all of those aren't really that powerful if you can only have one at once, but they're really iconic. Maybe make it the level 9 enhancement. Also, Imbue Arrow and Hail of Arrows offer more options in combat, which is why I sorta like those abilities. Mmm, maybe I should go back to drawing board. I think every Arcane Archer wants Evasion, since archery is keyed off dexterity AND they have good Reflex save progression, so their Ref will be ridiculous, especially since they're elves with natural bonus to Dex to boot. Uncanny Dodge for similar reasons, they're always ready.
jaelis 07-26-07, 07:36 AM	I kind of figured that the enhance arrow ability was really the main point of the class, and it seems pretty good to me. The other abiliities are OK, but I like StevenO's idea of a trick pool. I'd be inclined to use the casting stat for the arrow of death DC though.
Eldariel 07-26-07, 07:54 AM	I kind of figured that the enhance arrow ability was really the main point of the class, and it seems pretty good to me. The other abiliities are OK, but I like StevenO's idea of a trick pool. I'd be inclined to use the casting stat for the arrow of death DC though. See, the ability is an equivalent of a level 3 spell at ALL levels. That's why it isn't very good, especially since you give up lots of your spells by advancing Arcane Archer. Just having your mage (or yourself with Practiced Spellcaster and such) cast Greater Magic Weapon on your weapon has the same effect as that ability, hence why I'm not valuing it very highly. When I first played an Arcane Archer, I thought 'man, this is awesome'. Then I just realized that a Wizard could easily do the same and more. As it stands, your average Gish makes for a far better Arcane Archer than any Arcane Archer could ever hope to be, which is sad, since no Gish specializes in Archery. They've got that +5 Magic Weapon-spell on their person, so they've got no issues outdoing AA's signature abilities and their 9th level spells more than make up for the lack of the few weak arrows. Trick pool is an interesting idea, but it's been done with other classes such as fatespinner. Still, it might be the best way to incorporate different enhancements on arrows, have them draw points from the trick reservoire and add something like 'trickpool is doubled' as the level 10 ability. I was also thinking of keeping 'Seeker' and 'Phase'-arrows along as unique enhancements not available in normal weapons, and Imbue and Hail definitely need to stay as they give the class colour and make her distinct as an archer of her own style. I was thinking of giving Seeker-arrow the ability to ignore Range Increment (it's effectively homing, so that makes sense, no?), so you could shoot it up to 1100ft with perfect accuracy (2200ft with Distance/Far Shot and 2600ft with Far Shot+Ranged Weapon Mastery), making for a great sniper weapon, as long as you can have enough payload in that object (for example, imbue arrow for some damage spell). Thanks for all your ideas, my first version was relatively simple, but it seems like there's so much more to be done with the class.
Eldariel 07-26-07, 08:37 AM	Let's see, how about this: Lvl 1: Arrow +1, Enhancement Power, Distance - 1 point Lvl 2: CL +1, Flaming/Shock/Frost/Acidic/corresponding Sonic-enhancement - 1 point Lvl 3: Arrow +2, Undead Bane/Servant of Lolth Bane/Orc Bane - 1 point Lvl 4: CL +1, Metalline/Seeker - 2 points Lvl 5: Arrow +3, Imbue Arrow Lvl 6: CL +1, Holy/Anarchic/Axiomatic/Unholy-matching alignment only - 2 points Lvl 7: Arrow +4, Hail of Arrows class lvl/day Lvl 8: CL +1, Greater Dispelling/Banishing - 3 points Lvl 9: Arrow +5, Splitting/Phasing - 4 points Lvl 10: CL +1, Evasion, Arrow of Death - 5 points Enhancement Power: Arcane Archer can channel her Magic into her arrows. Whenever Arcane Archer shoots an arrow, if she so desires, it's enhanced by her base Arrow enhancement. In addition, she can add enhancements to that arrow from her enhancements known-list up to a maximum of her present level of standard Arrow enhancement. She can use enhancement points up to a maximum of her Caster Level per day. Imbue Arrow: Same as always Hail of Arrows: Same as always Evasion: Same as always Skills, saves, etc: Same as before. I think there might be a call for some sort of limitation to spamming lower level enhancements on her arrows (Frost, Shock, Acidic, Flaming, Sonic arrows sting), but I couldn't come up with an elegant way to do it. I think keying the enhancement max off her Caster Level makes sense, since she IS using her Magic to enhance those arrows.
jaelis 07-26-07, 09:12 AM	See, the ability is an equivalent of a level 3 spell at ALL levels. That's why it isn't very good, especially since you give up lots of your spells by advancing Arcane Archer. Eh, I guess you don't run into dispel magic very much. But it that's the case, then comparing any fighting class to a caster is going to be disheartening. Though it is also nice to have your magic arrows available in the middle of the night. And its not at all hard for a high level archer to burn through more than 50 arrows in a day.
Eldariel 07-26-07, 09:16 AM	Eh, I guess you don't run into dispel magic very much. But it that's the case, then comparing any fighting class to a caster is going to be disheartening. Though it is also nice to have your magic arrows available in the middle of the night. Running into disspell Magic is common enough, but that isn't enough of an incentive to really make the ability amazing. It just makes it better than nothing. But yea, of course it's handy, but it's just not so overexceedingly powerful that I'd want to base a class on just 'in case'-sitiuations.
The_Shaman 07-26-07, 09:33 AM	I think it is a bit too good now, but you decide.
Eldariel 07-26-07, 10:33 AM	I think it is a bit too good now, but you decide. Maybe, gotta find a way to tweak it into a flavourful and strong class without going overboard. I think I may have done just that.
Sothar_Borealis 07-26-07, 04:14 PM	First I would like to say that this class revision is awesome. I always liked the idea of the AA, but as it is presented in the DMG, the class is underpowered. When you feel that this class is finished you should try to make it in a pdf (kinda like the remade paladin.) well at least I hope that you make it into on... This way i can print and distribute to my PC's lol :angel: If you can't make it into a pdf then i can i got the software for it. But alass that is all up to you and either way im going to mark this page! Great class! have a cookie :cookie: ! you deserve it!
Hideous Phidias 07-26-07, 04:34 PM	To "fix" the arcane archer all you have to do is give it a plus to spell caster levels at every other level and change the ability to imbue spell onto an arrow from area effect spells to any spell.
Eldariel 07-26-07, 04:35 PM	First I would like to say that this class revision is awesome. I always liked the idea of the AA, but as it is presented in the DMG, the class is underpowered. When you feel that this class is finished you should try to make it in a pdf (kinda like the remade paladin.) well at least I hope that you make it into on... This way i can print and distribute to my PC's lol :angel: If you can't make it into a pdf then i can i got the software for it. But alass that is all up to you and either way im going to mark this page! Great class! have a cookie :cookie: ! you deserve it! Sure, that can be done, but which one are you specifically talking about? The one in post one, or the later, more powerful concept?
Eldariel 07-26-07, 04:42 PM	To "fix" the arcane archer all you have to do is give it a plus to spell caster levels at every other level and change the ability to imbue spell onto an arrow from area effect spells to any spell. However, that doesn't make the class any more interesting, leaves Arrow of Death totally lackluster, still has the illogical lack of good Will-save and you've still got pretty useless seeker and phase-arrows, since you have to use a Standard action to fire one, meaning it will never be anywhere near the damage output of a full attack, Manyshot or any other such effect, and we're talking about CLASS SPECIAL ABILITIES. That's what triggered me to remake the class, everything about it pretty much sucked except for BAB, Reflex save and skillpoints.
StevenO 07-26-07, 08:18 PM	Well, the thing is, her Imbue Arrow-ability is entirely useless without some actual spells worth casting. Also, if you've taken a level of Sorcerer/Wizard and start to advance a character who enhances all her arrows, wouldn't you want actual spells to go with it? I sure would. Thanks for the feedback though. I think the Arrow of Death needs to be keyed off the casting stat since it's clearly a magical arrow as you have to take a day to prepare, so it isn't precision that's killing the target, it's magic. I was thinking of a trickpool, but it just feels more eloquent to have actual enhanced arrows in your bag of tricks coupled with abilities every other level. And compared to any Gish-PrC (Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Phantom Knight, etc.), Arcane Archer always feels lacking. I couldn't come up with a single reason to pick her up when pondering an Archer-build on CO. Her main ability is eclipsed by a level 3 spell, her secondary abilities are all but useless with Imbue having no spells to use due to the lack of caster level advancement, Seeker being a standard action, phase being a standard action and Arrow of Death having a ridiculously low DC for 17th level attack, one that isn't pumpable by any means. Lets be honest, Imbue Arrow is actually the biggest throw away ability in AA. It may seem thematic but if it had never appeared people would quit trying to "improve" the class by adding caster level increases. If Imbue Arrow is all (Ok, just a major reason) you're looking at AA just go for the two level dip. I know this goes against all the optimization recommendations but a Wiz/Sor 12 can qualify for AA and neither loses 9th level spells at 20th level with a two level dip because of it. If I only take a level of wizard or sorcerer I'm either planning on taking a LOT more or justing sticking with the minimum needed for whatever reason I took it for. Admittedly I'd prefer Duskblade for entry in Dragon Disciple or AA but a single base arcanist level will do when required. In a warrior heavy build I'd just take one level to get into Abjurant Champ and generally consider the six levels of spellcasting I'd get an acceptable trade for the momentary weakness of taking an arcane class. If you look at AA as a "caster" class it will definitely lack when compared to other "gish" classes. A problem with trying to improve any class because there is a better class is that it leads to power creap. Wizards may like that because it means you have to keep buying new books to stay at the top but that doesn't make it right. If you're going to improve AA without building a completely new class you just need to focus on the special abilities. Using the "trick pool" I mentioned earlier and have one use per two levels which would offer an upgrade without destroying what is already there. If you don't like the standard action to use a trick then make it a swift action instead. As for needing to use a caster stat on an Arrow of Death DC mod, why? Claiming the save is based on your aim is just a valid as saying it is based on your arcane power; if you claim the DC is too low why not use DEX as it should be higher than your casting stat because you are working harder at being an archer instead of a spellcaster. The claim that the AA's main power, Enhanced Arrow, is completely negated by a 3rd level spell has some merit but isn't completely true. If Dispel Magic is part of the game the AA remains relavent. Perhaps at higher levels 3rd level spells can/should be spent on long duration enchantments but that isn't always true; there are times when that spell would best be used elsewhere (like say that Cold Iron Morningstar) and you also run the risk of having it end before it is needed.
Eldariel 07-26-07, 08:38 PM	Lets be honest, Imbue Arrow is actually the biggest throw away ability in AA. It may seem thematic but if it had never appeared people would quit trying to "improve" the class by adding caster level increases. If Imbue Arrow is all (Ok, just a major reason) you're looking at AA just go for the two level dip. I know this goes against all the optimization recommendations but a Wiz/Sor 12 can qualify for AA and neither loses 9th level spells at 20th level with a two level dip because of it. The ability isn't strong enough to dip for, but it's flavourful and if caster progression is given, it becomes useful too. One of the great reasons to actually give caster progression. It's just poor class designing that they combined a non-caster class with caster-abilities. If I only take a level of wizard or sorcerer I'm either planning on taking a LOT more or justing sticking with the minimum needed for whatever reason I took it for. Admittedly I'd prefer Duskblade for entry in Dragon Disciple or AA but a single base arcanist level will do when required. In a warrior heavy build I'd just take one level to get into Abjurant Champ and generally consider the six levels of spellcasting I'd get an acceptable trade for the momentary weakness of taking an arcane class. If you look at AA as a "caster" class it will definitely lack when compared to other "gish" classes. A problem with trying to improve any class because there is a better class is that it leads to power creap. Wizards may like that because it means you have to keep buying new books to stay at the top but that doesn't make it right. Which is why I changed it to not be weaker anymore. Yes, it causes powercreep, but there's nothing wrong with going to powerlevel equal to the present powerlevel. It's not stronger than Abjurant Champion even in its new guise. It's about on par with Spellsword, except for range, which is exactly what I both, think Arcane Archer is supposed to be and what I think the changes highlight. If you're going to improve AA without building a completely new class you just need to focus on the special abilities. Using the "trick pool" I mentioned earlier and have one use per two levels which would offer an upgrade without destroying what is already there. If you don't like the standard action to use a trick then make it a swift action instead. As for needing to use a caster stat on an Arrow of Death DC mod, why? Claiming the save is based on your aim is just a valid as saying it is based on your arcane power; if you claim the DC is too low why not use DEX as it should be higher than your casting stat because you are working harder at being an archer instead of a spellcaster. You spend a day preparing the Arrow and you can only own one. You can't spend a day aiming at a target you don't know of. Also, it only lasts for a year. It's just fairly obvious that it's a magical enhancement. Also, the class is named Arcane Archer. That means she's got the Arcane Art and she's got the Archery. She's a character that combines both. Why should she advance Archery (BAB) and not Arcane (CL) if that's even what her name implies? Also, why do I need to focus on special abilities? I don't see a single reason to do that. As long as it stays in flavour better than the original class, while maintaining playability, everything goes. Or any reason not to? The claim that the AA's main power, Enhanced Arrow, is completely negated by a 3rd level spell has some merit but isn't completely true. If Dispel Magic is part of the game the AA remains relavent. Perhaps at higher levels 3rd level spells can/should be spent on long duration enchantments but that isn't always true; there are times when that spell would best be used elsewhere (like say that Cold Iron Morningstar) and you also run the risk of having it end before it is needed. Yes, it isn't entirely useless, but close enough to not make it worth taking a class, and close enough that the class can afford additional abilities at those levels without being broken.
Sothar_Borealis 07-27-07, 12:18 AM	Here's what I've done in the past to update it. All the prereqs and stuff the same. LEVEL ABILITY 1. +1 Arrows 2. Imbue Arrow, +1 caster level 3. +2 Arrows, Silver Arrows 4. Seeker Arrow, +1 caster level 5. +3 Arrows, Aligned Arrows 6. Phase Arrows, +1 caster level 7. +4 Arrows, Cold Iron Arrows 8. Hail of Arrows, +1 caster level 9. +5 Arrows, Adamantine Arrows 10. Arrow of Death DC 10 + level + Dex mod, +1 caster level At every even level, caster level increases by 1. At 3rd level and every odd level thereafter, the arrows used by the Arcane Archer can bypass DR as if they had the listed material and/or alignment type. The Aligned Arrows must match the AL of the AA, so a N one is kind of disadvantaged, but the CG and LG ones do OK. Hmmmm...this is good I like it. The main reason I didn't like the AA in canon is because they get no spell progression unlike other gish classes. The only thing that I would do away with, (since with the addition of spell progression) is the DR bypassing. The way I see it, now that you can continue with your spells and the other AA class features, this class is just as good as its contemporaries (spell sword, abjurant champion). It would be much easier for an AA to get cold iron or admantine arrows, having them as given class abilities pushes this class into the uber realms.
Hideous Phidias 07-27-07, 01:14 AM	However, that doesn't make the class any more interesting, leaves Arrow of Death totally lackluster, still has the illogical lack of good Will-save and you've still got pretty useless seeker and phase-arrows, since you have to use a Standard action to fire one, meaning it will never be anywhere near the damage output of a full attack, Manyshot or any other such effect, and we're talking about CLASS SPECIAL ABILITIES. That's what triggered me to remake the class, everything about it pretty much sucked except for BAB, Reflex save and skillpoints. Interesting, interesting get you killed. I look at many of the new classes and prestige classes and wonder why. They have some many class abilities that are "interesting", but that does not make them anymore better then the straight forward classes and prestige classes. The book of the nine swords is a great example of this. The classes and prestige classes are interesting but not really need. I still say a boring fighter or barbarian are better on any given day. If you fit something enough it will always die. I also find that they slow down combat in game, it is just another system that both player and DM have to learn and keep straight. You say, "everything about it pretty much sucked ", then why even spend time on the class if you think so little of it? I understand it is a classic prestige from the old day but it was never anything more then what it is today. Why rewrite the whole class? Why don't you just make up your own prestige class and leaveit at that?
Eldariel 07-27-07, 07:07 AM	Interesting, interesting get you killed. I look at many of the new classes and prestige classes and wonder why. They have some many class abilities that are "interesting", but that does not make them anymore better then the straight forward classes and prestige classes. The book of the nine swords is a great example of this. The classes and prestige classes are interesting but not really need. I still say a boring fighter or barbarian are better on any given day. If you fit something enough it will always die. I also find that they slow down combat in game, it is just another system that both player and DM have to learn and keep straight. I play the game because of interesting classes. Sorry. In my opinion, Tome of Battle is the best thing ever, their turns take no longer than a Wizard's and it makes Fighter-types worth playing. You say, "everything about it pretty much sucked ", then why even spend time on the class if you think so little of it? I understand it is a classic prestige from the old day but it was never anything more then what it is today. Why rewrite the whole class? Why don't you just make up your own prestige class and leaveit at that? Because I want a good Arcane Archer. I have no reason not to make one, really. Leaving bad PrCs to be bad serves nobody.
BoSheck 07-27-07, 10:53 AM	I think that keeping the phase and seeker abilities might be worthwhile if you had a trick pool 1/level or somesuch. Honestly, they may not be anything compared to a full attack, but if you combine them with something like the Splitting quality (a much easier purchase, thanks to the Enhanced Arrows ability) and a few low level scrying spells (arcane eye, a ring of x-ray vision, chain of eyes and a bag of tricks, etc.) you start to see some viable applications. Beyond that: you may want to consider the original text for the arrows ability of only affecting nonmagical arrows. ALSO: (far less of a concern, and this is just a beef with the rules) Who decided that Improved Arrow of Death should be Wis based of all things?
Eldariel 07-27-07, 08:12 PM	I think that keeping the phase and seeker abilities might be worthwhile if you had a trick pool 1/level or somesuch. Honestly, they may not be anything compared to a full attack, but if you combine them with something like the Splitting quality (a much easier purchase, thanks to the Enhanced Arrows ability) and a few low level scrying spells (arcane eye, a ring of x-ray vision, chain of eyes and a bag of tricks, etc.) you start to see some viable applications. Something like that, extended uses anyways and I want them usable as parts of volleys and Imbue Arrow, which is a change I already made, but that doesn't mean you can't also use 'em for scouting. Beyond that: you may want to consider the original text for the arrows ability of only affecting nonmagical arrows. Good point, in the 'Arrow Enchanter'-version of AA, that's definitely a good limitation, but I don't know about the normal AA. ALSO: (far less of a concern, and this is just a beef with the rules) Who decided that Improved Arrow of Death should be Wis based of all things? It's based on primary casting stat, which is perfectly logical since you use Magic to prepare it (takes a day). I guess it could end up with Wis if you are playing a Wis-based Arcane caster, but that's rare. Nobody has suggested Arrow of Death being keyed of solely Wisdom.
ThroteCutter 07-29-07, 08:36 PM	Recently I played a level 15 campaign where I was a wizard 5/fighter 1/Arcane Archer 2/Eldrich Knight 7 I wanted to make a truly arcane, arcane archer which turned out to be the strongest character in the group. It was our primary arcane spell caster with a caster level of 11 but could still attack with a bab of 13. The AA imbue arrow ability is actually greater than you guys are giving it credit. You get to deal weapon damage along with a spell. Also, what is even better, is the clause in the description "even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster." Nothing annoyed the DM more than having a spell caster boss that is stuck in an anti-magic field. And nothing is funnier than firing an Invisibility Sphere in the middle of combat so when any person attacks, everyone else winks out of sight. Also, it never hurts to be able to fire spells 2200 feet (if you have bow of distance) Finally, if you are going to have a trickpool, why would anyone ever use Seeker arrow? Since both arrows require knowing where a target is, why not use phase arrow and make them lose their armor bonus too? (In case you haven't noticed, I think the Seeker arrow is the most pointless ability since 60% of the time, a few arrows of seeking are sufficient.) However, I would never complain about adding spellcaster levels to a class though.
Eldariel 07-29-07, 08:54 PM	Seeker Arrow costs less 'trickpoints'. Also, it ignores Range Increments, unlike Phasing Arrow which you still have to aim yourself.
BoSheck 07-30-07, 10:30 AM	And a seeker arrow will go around a wall of force. Being a force effect, that would stop a phase arrow.