Fixing the Mindbender [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fixing the Mindbender [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shamgi
09-21-07, 02:46 AM So everyone agrees the Mindbender is broken. I'd like to attempt to fix it.

And by fix it, make it do what it was designed to do. That means that simply adding caster levels to it isn't a way to fix it, because the class was designed to loss spellcasting in return for mental abilities that can't be reproduced by a normal mage. I find my own suggestions lacking in some reguards, but they're a start, at least.

Enchantment Mastery(EX) - A mindbender has gained the utmost control of their enchantment spells, allowing them to control even the mindless in the world. When a Mindbender targets a natural creature that has the mindless trait(such as a spider) with a complusion based enchantment, it makes a will save(Use it's hit dice as it's base save). If the save succeeds the Mindbender may not affect this creature with any spells, if it fails, the spell works as normal and the Mindbender may cast any other effects on it(the creature gets further will saves as normal, but a success does not prevent the Mindbender from casting further spells on it). These spells work by controlling the body rather than the mind, transmitting the correct electrical signals through the creatures nevours system to control it how the Mindbender wishes. Unnatural creatures with the mindless trait(such as undead or constructs) remain immune to this effect and only complusion spells may be used, charm spells are ineffective against mindless creatures no matter what.

Notes: I need to edit this one pretty badly, but the general idea is there.

Piercing the Mental Barrier(EX) - A mindbender has faced countless defenses against his mental skills, and in time, has learned to slip past even the tightest mental walls. When faced with a creature who has immunity to mind effecting abilities by either natural of spell effect(but is not mindless) the Mindbender may make a caster level check(DC = 15 + spell level of the effect, use Mindblank if no specific spell effect is in place). If the check succeeds, then the Mindbender affects the creature with the spell dispite it's mental defenses.

Notes - A simple counter to give the Mindbender an edge even when faced with prepared opponents. Attempts to overcome how easily a Enchanter can be countered.

Well, that's what I can think of right now, any Comments? Suggestions? Hopefully I can add to this later.
goawayugh
09-21-07, 08:13 AM I would take both of your ideas and make them scaling.

Penetrate Protection: AT 2nd level, when a Mindbender casts a mind-affecting spell against a creature that has a spell effect protecting it, the Mindbender can make a caster level check to overcome the magical protection. The spell that the Mindbender casts must be the same level or higher as the spell that is protecting the target creature. The Mindbender makes a CL check (DC=11+CL of the protecting spell). at 4th level, a Mindbender gets a +4 bonus on this check.

Mindless Mastery: When a Mindbender casts a mind-affecting spell, it has the potential to affect creatures that would otherwise be immune to it. The creature targeted by the spell gets any save a normal creature would get, but with a +10 bonus. At 6nd level a Mindbender can affect vermin with this ability. At 8th level, constructs. At 10th level, undead.

Not sure about the wording of each, but the idea sounds good. The problem with the Mindbender is that all of it's abilities (for the most part) can be dublicated by spells. For a class that only gives 5/10ths progresstion, it's other abilities that can't be duplicated by spells aren't that appealing.
Shamgi
09-21-07, 12:01 PM Scaling would be nice, one could use them to replace the other Mindbender abilities.

And that's what the sucker of the Mindbender is, it's supposted to give abilities worth losing those caster levels for, but it doesn't.
Puca
09-21-07, 12:27 PM So everyone agrees the Mindbender is broken. I'd like to attempt to fix it.For the record, I dont think it is broken. I think there are two problems with it, one of which is it is a bit weak for a full caster to take. (I am not though a member of any group committed to "saving the weak PrCs" out there.)

And by fix it, make it do what it was designed to do. That means that simply adding caster levels to it isn't a way to fix it, because the class was designed to loss spellcasting in return for mental abilities that can't be reproduced by a normal mage. What cant a normal mage do? Sorry to start off so negative; I havent read your ideas yet, but I question some of the assumptions on which they are based.

Enchantment Mastery(EX) - A mindbender has gained the utmost control of their enchantment spells, allowing them to control even the mindless in the world. When a Mindbender targets a natural creature <snip>Define "natural." Better, use standard types/subtypes for the sake of clarity, like Vermin et al. to cover spiders.

that has the mindless trait(such as a spider) with a complusion based enchantment, it makes a will save(Use it's hit dice as it's base save). If the save succeeds the Mindbender may not affect this creature with any spells, if it fails, the spell works as normal and the Mindbender may cast any other effects on it(the creature gets further will saves as normal, but a success does not prevent the Mindbender from casting further spells on it).This seems a bit complicated. The weird will save is odd. Why not just a fixed bonus? You could just say: This ability allows the mindbender to use mind-influencing compulsion spells on some creatures otherwise immune to such effect blah blah, list types, blah give a bonus to the save.

Piercing the Mental Barrier(EX) - A mindbender has faced countless defenses against his mental skills, and in time, has learned to slip past even the tightest mental walls. When faced with a creature who has immunity to mind effecting abilities by either natural of spell effect(but is not mindless) the Mindbender may make a caster level check(DC = 15 + spell level of the effect, use Mindblank if no specific spell effect is in place). If the check succeeds, then the Mindbender affects the creature with the spell dispite it's mental defenses.Again, Id clean some things up. Use some examples. But this does seem like something a Mindbender could be able to do, sort of the way the Argent Savant gets to dispel force effects.

If I were going to "fix" the Mindbender, Id give him a caster-level boost to enchantment spells and enchantment-like invocations. I might model this on the Unseen Seers boosts to divination at the cost of caster-level in other schools.

I would make telepathy the second-level ability or reorder the levels at which you give up casting. Im fine with one-level dips in general, but this is a bit too good.

I would look at the minor esoterica from the enchanter Master Specialist. Well, all the esoterica but that one in particular.
Shamgi
09-21-07, 01:11 PM Giving it abilties that a normal mage can't do would mostly be providing it abilities that can't be reproduced with spells. Thrall is a good example, a normal mage can't make a dominate monster with a duration of forever(it can last weeks, yes, but not forever). My two examples are focused on that idea, both eliminate the weaknesses of enchantment spells with the crux of not providing them the higher level spells in return(A mindbender can't cast 9th level spells, but a normal enchanter can't do anything against mindblank).

The key is to give it abilities that a normal mage would want to have. Most of what Mindbender gets, enchantment spells at a better range, don't make up for the lost levels of utility from five less spell levels. It would be a simple matter to just give the mindbender 7-8/10 spell progression, but that kind of defeats the original purpose of the class, to provide powerful spell like abilities at the cost of spells.

On to the abilities

Enchantment Mastery - Yes, I need to define natural. I was trying to restrict it to monsters that aren't otherwise controlled, such as undead or contructs. I was thinking of oozes, vermin, and other such "natural" mindless creatures. But the progression version provides that benefit.

As for the non-fixed save, I was attempting to keep it scaling so that the higher level monsters would be harder to control than the lower level ones. A fixed bonus would be simplier, however.

And Mindbender does get a caster level boost to his Enchantment spells, up to a +4 at tenth level.
StevenO
09-21-07, 02:22 PM So everyone agrees the Mindbender is broken. I'd like to attempt to fix it.
.

No they don't.

It may not compare well vs. a wizard using enchantment spells but that isn't its only use. You can enter Mindbender with a Warlock in which case the class really does allow a character to proceed in a different direction than following the standard progression would allow.
Puca
09-21-07, 02:32 PM I agree with Steven on Mindbender warlocks. Their Charm, for example, is limited to one creature, so adding others is cool.

I think it can also go well with bard, but not all ten levels as written.

Thrall is a good example, a normal mage can't make a dominate monster with a duration of forever(it can last weeks, yes, but not forever).Dominate Monster isnt forever, but with a one day/level duration, you can renew it daily. And it effects a greater variety of creatures that the mindbenders version, and I can have as many as I like Dominated. This is really the problem I have with the mindbender, but the ability to break through immunities was a good example and one I think anyone called "mindbender" could have.

As for the non-fixed save, I was attempting to keep it scaling so that the higher level monsters would be harder to control than the lower level ones. A fixed bonus would be simplier, however.Keep in mind that even things like spiders still have a will save that gets better as they get bigger. Higher hit die spiders are already going to be harder to control.

And Mindbender does get a caster level boost to his Enchantment spells, up to a +4 at tenth level.Oops.
Shamgi
09-21-07, 06:35 PM Dominate was just an example, and I bet simply removing the size requirements from Mindbender would help it a lot.

ANother ability might be to expand it's telepathy to inculde the Mindsight(would allow the Mindbender to know of any creature within 100 feet that has an Int score) feat as a later level improvement. Telepathy is one of the classes's strong points, so improving it would only help.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shamgi 09-21-07, 02:46 AM	So everyone agrees the Mindbender is broken. I'd like to attempt to fix it. And by fix it, make it do what it was designed to do. That means that simply adding caster levels to it isn't a way to fix it, because the class was designed to loss spellcasting in return for mental abilities that can't be reproduced by a normal mage. I find my own suggestions lacking in some reguards, but they're a start, at least. Enchantment Mastery(EX) - A mindbender has gained the utmost control of their enchantment spells, allowing them to control even the mindless in the world. When a Mindbender targets a natural creature that has the mindless trait(such as a spider) with a complusion based enchantment, it makes a will save(Use it's hit dice as it's base save). If the save succeeds the Mindbender may not affect this creature with any spells, if it fails, the spell works as normal and the Mindbender may cast any other effects on it(the creature gets further will saves as normal, but a success does not prevent the Mindbender from casting further spells on it). These spells work by controlling the body rather than the mind, transmitting the correct electrical signals through the creatures nevours system to control it how the Mindbender wishes. Unnatural creatures with the mindless trait(such as undead or constructs) remain immune to this effect and only complusion spells may be used, charm spells are ineffective against mindless creatures no matter what. Notes: I need to edit this one pretty badly, but the general idea is there. Piercing the Mental Barrier(EX) - A mindbender has faced countless defenses against his mental skills, and in time, has learned to slip past even the tightest mental walls. When faced with a creature who has immunity to mind effecting abilities by either natural of spell effect(but is not mindless) the Mindbender may make a caster level check(DC = 15 + spell level of the effect, use Mindblank if no specific spell effect is in place). If the check succeeds, then the Mindbender affects the creature with the spell dispite it's mental defenses. Notes - A simple counter to give the Mindbender an edge even when faced with prepared opponents. Attempts to overcome how easily a Enchanter can be countered. Well, that's what I can think of right now, any Comments? Suggestions? Hopefully I can add to this later.
goawayugh 09-21-07, 08:13 AM	I would take both of your ideas and make them scaling. Penetrate Protection: AT 2nd level, when a Mindbender casts a mind-affecting spell against a creature that has a spell effect protecting it, the Mindbender can make a caster level check to overcome the magical protection. The spell that the Mindbender casts must be the same level or higher as the spell that is protecting the target creature. The Mindbender makes a CL check (DC=11+CL of the protecting spell). at 4th level, a Mindbender gets a +4 bonus on this check. Mindless Mastery: When a Mindbender casts a mind-affecting spell, it has the potential to affect creatures that would otherwise be immune to it. The creature targeted by the spell gets any save a normal creature would get, but with a +10 bonus. At 6nd level a Mindbender can affect vermin with this ability. At 8th level, constructs. At 10th level, undead. Not sure about the wording of each, but the idea sounds good. The problem with the Mindbender is that all of it's abilities (for the most part) can be dublicated by spells. For a class that only gives 5/10ths progresstion, it's other abilities that can't be duplicated by spells aren't that appealing.
Shamgi 09-21-07, 12:01 PM	Scaling would be nice, one could use them to replace the other Mindbender abilities. And that's what the sucker of the Mindbender is, it's supposted to give abilities worth losing those caster levels for, but it doesn't.
Puca 09-21-07, 12:27 PM	So everyone agrees the Mindbender is broken. I'd like to attempt to fix it.For the record, I dont think it is broken. I think there are two problems with it, one of which is it is a bit weak for a full caster to take. (I am not though a member of any group committed to "saving the weak PrCs" out there.) And by fix it, make it do what it was designed to do. That means that simply adding caster levels to it isn't a way to fix it, because the class was designed to loss spellcasting in return for mental abilities that can't be reproduced by a normal mage. What cant a normal mage do? Sorry to start off so negative; I havent read your ideas yet, but I question some of the assumptions on which they are based. Enchantment Mastery(EX) - A mindbender has gained the utmost control of their enchantment spells, allowing them to control even the mindless in the world. When a Mindbender targets a natural creature <snip>Define "natural." Better, use standard types/subtypes for the sake of clarity, like Vermin et al. to cover spiders. that has the mindless trait(such as a spider) with a complusion based enchantment, it makes a will save(Use it's hit dice as it's base save). If the save succeeds the Mindbender may not affect this creature with any spells, if it fails, the spell works as normal and the Mindbender may cast any other effects on it(the creature gets further will saves as normal, but a success does not prevent the Mindbender from casting further spells on it).This seems a bit complicated. The weird will save is odd. Why not just a fixed bonus? You could just say: This ability allows the mindbender to use mind-influencing compulsion spells on some creatures otherwise immune to such effect blah blah, list types, blah give a bonus to the save. Piercing the Mental Barrier(EX) - A mindbender has faced countless defenses against his mental skills, and in time, has learned to slip past even the tightest mental walls. When faced with a creature who has immunity to mind effecting abilities by either natural of spell effect(but is not mindless) the Mindbender may make a caster level check(DC = 15 + spell level of the effect, use Mindblank if no specific spell effect is in place). If the check succeeds, then the Mindbender affects the creature with the spell dispite it's mental defenses.Again, Id clean some things up. Use some examples. But this does seem like something a Mindbender could be able to do, sort of the way the Argent Savant gets to dispel force effects. If I were going to "fix" the Mindbender, Id give him a caster-level boost to enchantment spells and enchantment-like invocations. I might model this on the Unseen Seers boosts to divination at the cost of caster-level in other schools. I would make telepathy the second-level ability or reorder the levels at which you give up casting. Im fine with one-level dips in general, but this is a bit too good. I would look at the minor esoterica from the enchanter Master Specialist. Well, all the esoterica but that one in particular.
Shamgi 09-21-07, 01:11 PM	Giving it abilties that a normal mage can't do would mostly be providing it abilities that can't be reproduced with spells. Thrall is a good example, a normal mage can't make a dominate monster with a duration of forever(it can last weeks, yes, but not forever). My two examples are focused on that idea, both eliminate the weaknesses of enchantment spells with the crux of not providing them the higher level spells in return(A mindbender can't cast 9th level spells, but a normal enchanter can't do anything against mindblank). The key is to give it abilities that a normal mage would want to have. Most of what Mindbender gets, enchantment spells at a better range, don't make up for the lost levels of utility from five less spell levels. It would be a simple matter to just give the mindbender 7-8/10 spell progression, but that kind of defeats the original purpose of the class, to provide powerful spell like abilities at the cost of spells. On to the abilities Enchantment Mastery - Yes, I need to define natural. I was trying to restrict it to monsters that aren't otherwise controlled, such as undead or contructs. I was thinking of oozes, vermin, and other such "natural" mindless creatures. But the progression version provides that benefit. As for the non-fixed save, I was attempting to keep it scaling so that the higher level monsters would be harder to control than the lower level ones. A fixed bonus would be simplier, however. And Mindbender does get a caster level boost to his Enchantment spells, up to a +4 at tenth level.
StevenO 09-21-07, 02:22 PM	So everyone agrees the Mindbender is broken. I'd like to attempt to fix it. . No they don't. It may not compare well vs. a wizard using enchantment spells but that isn't its only use. You can enter Mindbender with a Warlock in which case the class really does allow a character to proceed in a different direction than following the standard progression would allow.
Puca 09-21-07, 02:32 PM	I agree with Steven on Mindbender warlocks. Their Charm, for example, is limited to one creature, so adding others is cool. I think it can also go well with bard, but not all ten levels as written. Thrall is a good example, a normal mage can't make a dominate monster with a duration of forever(it can last weeks, yes, but not forever).Dominate Monster isnt forever, but with a one day/level duration, you can renew it daily. And it effects a greater variety of creatures that the mindbenders version, and I can have as many as I like Dominated. This is really the problem I have with the mindbender, but the ability to break through immunities was a good example and one I think anyone called "mindbender" could have. As for the non-fixed save, I was attempting to keep it scaling so that the higher level monsters would be harder to control than the lower level ones. A fixed bonus would be simplier, however.Keep in mind that even things like spiders still have a will save that gets better as they get bigger. Higher hit die spiders are already going to be harder to control. And Mindbender does get a caster level boost to his Enchantment spells, up to a +4 at tenth level.Oops.
Shamgi 09-21-07, 06:35 PM	Dominate was just an example, and I bet simply removing the size requirements from Mindbender would help it a lot. ANother ability might be to expand it's telepathy to inculde the Mindsight(would allow the Mindbender to know of any creature within 100 feet that has an Int score) feat as a later level improvement. Telepathy is one of the classes's strong points, so improving it would only help.