Fohlucan Lyrist awesome? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fohlucan Lyrist awesome? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Raiziel07
03-20-07, 10:18 PM Fochlucan Lyrist's gain 1 spell level as a divine caster, 1 spell level as a arcane caster and +1 BAB every level. This seems pretty over-powered to me. Is this thought by many to be a broken class or am I putting too much stock in double the number of spells and still having physical attacks? True, it isn't the BEST arcane caster, the BEST divine caster, or the BEST meleer/ranger but having access to all 3 seems like a winner. Any ideas on why this class isn't a step above any other?
Lotus Crane
03-20-07, 10:49 PM Try actually qualifying for the PrC; by the time you take your 1st level of Fochlucan Lyrist, you're already completely useless. FL has to give out the goodies it does in order to make you stop sucking by 20th level. Build a rogue/bard/druid/FL 10, and see if you still think it's better than a druid 20, or heck even a bard 20.
Raiziel07
03-20-07, 11:17 PM Rogue2/Druid1/Bard7/FL10 = Bard17+6th level divine spells and +4 BAB(total =16 so 4 attacks). not quite a 20th bard, but i think the divine spells make up for it a bit.

as opposed to Rogue2/Druid6/Bard12 = Bard12+3rd level divine spells and total bab +14

Rogue2/Druid7/Bard1/FL10 = Bard11+9th level divine spells and +8 BAB(total = 16 again).

going Fochlucan is definitely better than going bard....

as for Druid....I do like wild shape, but thats really all your missing other than the few other mild abilities.
LordPendragon
03-21-07, 12:50 AM Nah, Fochlucan is far from overpowered. Everyone reads the class, and goes "OMFG look at that!!", then they read the requirements and go "Oh... who would want to put themselves through that".

As with anything, there are builds that break the Fochlucan Lyrist by setting out to do so in a methodical manner. However, playing the class normally as it was intended to be played should be no more powerful than an average character.
NineInchNall
03-21-07, 01:00 AM Rogue2/Druid1/Bard7/FL10 = Bard17+6th level divine spells and +4 BAB(total =16 so 4 attacks). not quite a 20th bard, but i think the divine spells make up for it a bit.

The ability to cast 6th level Bard spells and 6th level Druid spells is crappy enough that even a +16 BAB can't save things. (Like it ever really could.)

as opposed to Rogue2/Druid6/Bard12 = Bard12+3rd level divine spells and total bab +14

Yes, it's a totally worthless character throughout all 20 levels without the PrC. With it, the character sucks for only 12-13 levels.

Rogue2/Druid7/Bard1/FL10 = Bard11+9th level divine spells and +8 BAB(total = 16 again).

And then the character drops dead because he doesn't actually qualify for the class.

as for Druid....I do like wild shape, but thats really all your missing other than the few other mild abilities.

And there your credibility with respect to judging class balance goes out the window.
navar100
03-21-07, 01:41 AM Rogue2/Druid1/Bard7/FL10 = Bard17+6th level divine spells and +4 BAB(total =16 so 4 attacks). not quite a 20th bard, but i think the divine spells make up for it a bit.

as opposed to Rogue2/Druid6/Bard12 = Bard12+3rd level divine spells and total bab +14

Rogue2/Druid7/Bard1/FL10 = Bard11+9th level divine spells and +8 BAB(total = 16 again).

going Fochlucan is definitely better than going bard....

as for Druid....I do like wild shape, but thats really all your missing other than the few other mild abilities.

Maybe, at 20th level, but what about in the meantime? At 6th level, would you like being rogue2/druid1/bard3? I guess you could be rogue2/bard4 and wait for your druid level at level 10 before going into Fochlucan. Still, you are two levels behind in bard stuff. Can you deal with it? Your other option at 6th level is rogue 2/druid 4, waiting for your bard level at level 10. You don't have wildshape and don't even have 3rd level druid spells yet. Are you ok with that?

Maybe it is 'just me'. If I'm going to multiclass into a prestige class, I want those pre-prestige class levels to be "awesome" in their own right, define "awesome" as personal aesthetic funness as opposed to being an uberoverlord. I'm already aesthetically bothered with not taking that 3rd level rogue for +2d6 sneak attack. Maybe it's just that balance taste of indecision popping up.

Just playing my warlock with no intention of multi-classing, I'm already "bothered" I can't fly yet at level 5. I'm frustrated I don't have Noxious Blast, which I'll have to wait until 11th level. I'm enjoying my character and what he can already do, but real world playing time not at the "juicy" levels takes its toll. When I finally reach 6th level and can fly I'll be on :cloud9: , but until then 6th level is taking "forever" to be reached. How more frustrated I would be if I had to wait until 20th level to get the good stuff with multiclassing into a prestige class.

For my personal taste, if I were to go into a prestige class, I much prefer a single core class entry. That allows me the fun of that class. If I had to multi-class, I can do a 1 level dip. (Hello 4/1 fighter/cleric Prestige Paladin :love: ) A two-level dip, maybe. Having to multi-class with three classes, no way. Needing at least 3 levels in two classes, probably not unless those base classes synergize really well with each other before the prestige class. I wouldn't mind Arcane Trickster if I just didn't suck at playing rogues. :P
AbyssKnight
03-21-07, 02:08 AM I like Human Bard 2/Ranger 9/Druid 1/Fohluchan Lyrist 8 with the Able Learner feat. Add FL caster bumps to Druid.

18 BAB
5th level Druid spells
4th level Bard spells
Empiro
03-21-07, 02:56 AM I remember that someone else posted a pretty solid build that was something like a Bard 4/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant 3/Lyrist 10. It did include a cheesy way to get evasion that I don't quite remember though. The build is quite powerful, and playable from level 8 onwards with no problem. You get level 8 druid spells and level 6 bard spells as well as great saves, plenty of HP, and a BAB of 17.

If you give up an extra caster level for Druid, you can even squeeze in a level of Sublime Chord so that you get level 9 wizard spells.

People also like the class because it's like the 1st edition Bard.
ArcTan
03-21-07, 03:09 AM Yes, the Fochlucan Lyrist is a tribute to the old-school Bard, which was all about the concept of having a really awesome set of class abilities you could *only* get by jumping through an insane set of hoops.
MerlintheTuna
03-21-07, 03:14 AM Sigh. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9962304&postcount=796) I've had to post that link quite a few times lately. At any rate, that's an interesting take on the Lyrist from shadow mage over on CharOp. I don't agree with his decision to make a sundermonkey, but hey, whatever, those are feat slots that can be swapped out a lot of different ways. The buildup is certainly a bit tenuous, but it's far from useless.
runestar
03-21-07, 08:40 AM I suppose if your game started at lv20 off the bat, and you did not have to go through the headache of managing the multiclassing disaster that is rogue/bard/druid, it might make for a decent build. But I don't see how it can be broken.
Edea
03-21-07, 02:37 PM Breaking it involves finding alternative methods to meet the prereqs without taking levels in specific classes (rogue or bard, for example). There are ways. In fact, it's possible to get in without levels in any of the three predicted classes, but the process is convoluted and cheesy.
CantripN
03-21-07, 03:12 PM Breaking it involves finding alternative methods to meet the prereqs without taking levels in specific classes (rogue or bard, for example). There are ways. In fact, it's possible to get in without levels in any of the three predicted classes, but the process is convoluted and cheesy.

How?
Binder for Bardic Knowledge.
Divine Oracle, Item, Chakra Bind or some Template for Evasion...
Druidic using Loremaster or Roleplay?
Edea
03-21-07, 07:31 PM Loredelver gives Bardic Knowledge and Evasion without having to use temporaries (such as soulmelds). Ironically it requires trapfinding, best found on a Beguiler. Loremaster is capable of learning the Druidic language on its own as you indicated. Get 1st level divine spells from an accelerated divine spellcasting class. The real problem is all of the skill ranks, especially Perform (I despise that skill with a passion), but you're likely able to blow a feat slot for it. Also; try to detach from taking all 10 levels of Lyrist, 9 is plenty.

The Sublime Ur-Lyrist has potential, but you're still stuck taking Bard levels. Caelic wrote a real nice one using Arcane Heirophant, but it uses soulmelds (I'm a bit hesitant to accept that as meeting a prereq, only because it's quite possible to be caught by an enemy without having them shaped).
FreAkOuTRG
03-21-07, 07:45 PM To make an effective build, I recommend making good use of the feats Chaos Music (and I hear there is a feat called practiced spellcaster too, though I haven't actually seen it), Able Learner and variant bards and druids (such as the harbinger bard for a "debuff" bard, or totem druid for a better animal companion and wildshaping abilities. I also like the wildshape variant in PHB2, although that will cripple your spellcasting a bit, since you can't cast while using it)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raiziel07 03-20-07, 10:18 PM	Fochlucan Lyrist's gain 1 spell level as a divine caster, 1 spell level as a arcane caster and +1 BAB every level. This seems pretty over-powered to me. Is this thought by many to be a broken class or am I putting too much stock in double the number of spells and still having physical attacks? True, it isn't the BEST arcane caster, the BEST divine caster, or the BEST meleer/ranger but having access to all 3 seems like a winner. Any ideas on why this class isn't a step above any other?
Lotus Crane 03-20-07, 10:49 PM	Try actually qualifying for the PrC; by the time you take your 1st level of Fochlucan Lyrist, you're already completely useless. FL has to give out the goodies it does in order to make you stop sucking by 20th level. Build a rogue/bard/druid/FL 10, and see if you still think it's better than a druid 20, or heck even a bard 20.
Raiziel07 03-20-07, 11:17 PM	Rogue2/Druid1/Bard7/FL10 = Bard17+6th level divine spells and +4 BAB(total =16 so 4 attacks). not quite a 20th bard, but i think the divine spells make up for it a bit. as opposed to Rogue2/Druid6/Bard12 = Bard12+3rd level divine spells and total bab +14 Rogue2/Druid7/Bard1/FL10 = Bard11+9th level divine spells and +8 BAB(total = 16 again). going Fochlucan is definitely better than going bard.... as for Druid....I do like wild shape, but thats really all your missing other than the few other mild abilities.
LordPendragon 03-21-07, 12:50 AM	Nah, Fochlucan is far from overpowered. Everyone reads the class, and goes "OMFG look at that!!", then they read the requirements and go "Oh... who would want to put themselves through that". As with anything, there are builds that break the Fochlucan Lyrist by setting out to do so in a methodical manner. However, playing the class normally as it was intended to be played should be no more powerful than an average character.
NineInchNall 03-21-07, 01:00 AM	Rogue2/Druid1/Bard7/FL10 = Bard17+6th level divine spells and +4 BAB(total =16 so 4 attacks). not quite a 20th bard, but i think the divine spells make up for it a bit. The ability to cast 6th level Bard spells and 6th level Druid spells is crappy enough that even a +16 BAB can't save things. (Like it ever really could.) as opposed to Rogue2/Druid6/Bard12 = Bard12+3rd level divine spells and total bab +14 Yes, it's a totally worthless character throughout all 20 levels without the PrC. With it, the character sucks for only 12-13 levels. Rogue2/Druid7/Bard1/FL10 = Bard11+9th level divine spells and +8 BAB(total = 16 again). And then the character drops dead because he doesn't actually qualify for the class. as for Druid....I do like wild shape, but thats really all your missing other than the few other mild abilities. And there your credibility with respect to judging class balance goes out the window.
navar100 03-21-07, 01:41 AM	Rogue2/Druid1/Bard7/FL10 = Bard17+6th level divine spells and +4 BAB(total =16 so 4 attacks). not quite a 20th bard, but i think the divine spells make up for it a bit. as opposed to Rogue2/Druid6/Bard12 = Bard12+3rd level divine spells and total bab +14 Rogue2/Druid7/Bard1/FL10 = Bard11+9th level divine spells and +8 BAB(total = 16 again). going Fochlucan is definitely better than going bard.... as for Druid....I do like wild shape, but thats really all your missing other than the few other mild abilities. Maybe, at 20th level, but what about in the meantime? At 6th level, would you like being rogue2/druid1/bard3? I guess you could be rogue2/bard4 and wait for your druid level at level 10 before going into Fochlucan. Still, you are two levels behind in bard stuff. Can you deal with it? Your other option at 6th level is rogue 2/druid 4, waiting for your bard level at level 10. You don't have wildshape and don't even have 3rd level druid spells yet. Are you ok with that? Maybe it is 'just me'. If I'm going to multiclass into a prestige class, I want those pre-prestige class levels to be "awesome" in their own right, define "awesome" as personal aesthetic funness as opposed to being an uberoverlord. I'm already aesthetically bothered with not taking that 3rd level rogue for +2d6 sneak attack. Maybe it's just that balance taste of indecision popping up. Just playing my warlock with no intention of multi-classing, I'm already "bothered" I can't fly yet at level 5. I'm frustrated I don't have Noxious Blast, which I'll have to wait until 11th level. I'm enjoying my character and what he can already do, but real world playing time not at the "juicy" levels takes its toll. When I finally reach 6th level and can fly I'll be on :cloud9: , but until then 6th level is taking "forever" to be reached. How more frustrated I would be if I had to wait until 20th level to get the good stuff with multiclassing into a prestige class. For my personal taste, if I were to go into a prestige class, I much prefer a single core class entry. That allows me the fun of that class. If I had to multi-class, I can do a 1 level dip. (Hello 4/1 fighter/cleric Prestige Paladin :love: ) A two-level dip, maybe. Having to multi-class with three classes, no way. Needing at least 3 levels in two classes, probably not unless those base classes synergize really well with each other before the prestige class. I wouldn't mind Arcane Trickster if I just didn't suck at playing rogues. :P
AbyssKnight 03-21-07, 02:08 AM	I like Human Bard 2/Ranger 9/Druid 1/Fohluchan Lyrist 8 with the Able Learner feat. Add FL caster bumps to Druid. 18 BAB 5th level Druid spells 4th level Bard spells
Empiro 03-21-07, 02:56 AM	I remember that someone else posted a pretty solid build that was something like a Bard 4/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant 3/Lyrist 10. It did include a cheesy way to get evasion that I don't quite remember though. The build is quite powerful, and playable from level 8 onwards with no problem. You get level 8 druid spells and level 6 bard spells as well as great saves, plenty of HP, and a BAB of 17. If you give up an extra caster level for Druid, you can even squeeze in a level of Sublime Chord so that you get level 9 wizard spells. People also like the class because it's like the 1st edition Bard.
ArcTan 03-21-07, 03:09 AM	Yes, the Fochlucan Lyrist is a tribute to the old-school Bard, which was all about the concept of having a really awesome set of class abilities you could only get by jumping through an insane set of hoops.
MerlintheTuna 03-21-07, 03:14 AM	Sigh. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9962304&postcount=796) I've had to post that link quite a few times lately. At any rate, that's an interesting take on the Lyrist from shadow mage over on CharOp. I don't agree with his decision to make a sundermonkey, but hey, whatever, those are feat slots that can be swapped out a lot of different ways. The buildup is certainly a bit tenuous, but it's far from useless.
runestar 03-21-07, 08:40 AM	I suppose if your game started at lv20 off the bat, and you did not have to go through the headache of managing the multiclassing disaster that is rogue/bard/druid, it might make for a decent build. But I don't see how it can be broken.
Edea 03-21-07, 02:37 PM	Breaking it involves finding alternative methods to meet the prereqs without taking levels in specific classes (rogue or bard, for example). There are ways. In fact, it's possible to get in without levels in any of the three predicted classes, but the process is convoluted and cheesy.
CantripN 03-21-07, 03:12 PM	Breaking it involves finding alternative methods to meet the prereqs without taking levels in specific classes (rogue or bard, for example). There are ways. In fact, it's possible to get in without levels in any of the three predicted classes, but the process is convoluted and cheesy. How? Binder for Bardic Knowledge. Divine Oracle, Item, Chakra Bind or some Template for Evasion... Druidic using Loremaster or Roleplay?
Edea 03-21-07, 07:31 PM	Loredelver gives Bardic Knowledge and Evasion without having to use temporaries (such as soulmelds). Ironically it requires trapfinding, best found on a Beguiler. Loremaster is capable of learning the Druidic language on its own as you indicated. Get 1st level divine spells from an accelerated divine spellcasting class. The real problem is all of the skill ranks, especially Perform (I despise that skill with a passion), but you're likely able to blow a feat slot for it. Also; try to detach from taking all 10 levels of Lyrist, 9 is plenty. The Sublime Ur-Lyrist has potential, but you're still stuck taking Bard levels. Caelic wrote a real nice one using Arcane Heirophant, but it uses soulmelds (I'm a bit hesitant to accept that as meeting a prereq, only because it's quite possible to be caught by an enemy without having them shaped).
FreAkOuTRG 03-21-07, 07:45 PM	To make an effective build, I recommend making good use of the feats Chaos Music (and I hear there is a feat called practiced spellcaster too, though I haven't actually seen it), Able Learner and variant bards and druids (such as the harbinger bard for a "debuff" bard, or totem druid for a better animal companion and wildshaping abilities. I also like the wildshape variant in PHB2, although that will cripple your spellcasting a bit, since you can't cast while using it)