Full BA/+1 caster level, that Warlock qualifies for ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Full BA/+1 caster level, that Warlock qualifies for ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
nighttree
08-23-07, 01:04 AM Are there ANY +1 BA per level, +1 caster level/per level prestige classes that a Warlock can qualify for ?
nighttree
08-23-07, 10:58 AM I guess that's a NO......:weep:

How about this then.....can anyone direct me to a "Melee/Glaive-lock" build ?
RobbyPants
08-23-07, 11:01 AM Are there ANY +1 BA per level, +1 caster level/per level prestige classes that a Warlock can qualify for ?
There's only one full BAB/full caster progression PrC that I know of, and it's the Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage). Other than that, all I know of are PrCs with a mostly full caster progression and full BAB.

I don't know that a warlock could qualify for Abjurant Champion.
nighttree
08-23-07, 11:57 AM I don't think a warlock can qualify....requires the ability to CAST 1st level "arcane spells".

I could take a level of sorcerer, but I was under the impression that I would HAVE to advance the sorcerer levels, since that is what I used to get into the PrC in the first place?
bkdubs123
08-23-07, 12:16 PM No, you don't have to advance the sorcerer. +1 Caster level of any arcane caster class. You can use that to advance Warlock.
Jaxgaret
08-23-07, 05:07 PM I don't think a warlock can qualify....requires the ability to CAST 1st level "arcane spells".

I could take a level of sorcerer, but I was under the impression that I would HAVE to advance the sorcerer levels, since that is what I used to get into the PrC in the first place?

Take a level of Duskblade instead of Sorcerer if you're going to go that route, for the +1 BAB and MWP, Armored Mage, better HD/saves, etc.

You can advance your Warlock invoking with the +1 spellcasting per level.
nighttree
08-23-07, 10:28 PM Good Idea :D
Thanks
zorgling25
08-23-07, 11:03 PM You can advance your Warlock invoking with the +1 spellcasting per level.

No you can't. Read the Warlock's entry on page 18 of Complete Arcane.
A Warlock cannot qualify for Prestige Classes with spellcasting level requirements, as he never actually learns to cast spells.
Can't cast spells = can't get +1 spellcasting.
Jaxgaret
08-24-07, 02:12 AM No you can't. Read the Warlock's entry on page 18 of Complete Arcane.

Can't cast spells = can't get +1 spellcasting.

The question wasn't whether a straight Warlock could qualify for the class, it was whether a multiclassed Arcane/Warlock could level up his Warlock invocations with the +1 spellcasting per level, and the answer is yes.

Reference the same page you stated.
bkdubs123
08-24-07, 02:19 AM lol.
demonic_dante
08-24-07, 02:34 PM If your trying for a good glaive/blaster lock build (and by good I mean broken) just go warlock9/hellfire warlock3/legacy champion 8. Take the shape soulmeld feat and pick up a legacy item in order to do this properly. If you do each hit with your blast does 26d6 damage (I believe) meaning a full attack deals 78d6, and all at no cost to you.
bkdubs123
08-24-07, 03:10 PM "A" legacy item? Can you perhaps explain that post a little more throughly? Like what soulmeld it uses, what you actually need the legacy item/champion for?

I'm just curious now.
Duelpersonality
08-24-07, 03:22 PM You need a legacy item to qualify for Legacy Champion, so any legacy item will do. Legacy Champion has a progression for your original class abilities, not just spellcasting, so you use it to stack the damage bonus for Hellfire Warlock.
Jaxgaret
08-24-07, 03:26 PM If your trying for a good glaive/blaster lock build (and by good I mean broken) just go warlock9/hellfire warlock3/legacy champion 8. Take the shape soulmeld feat and pick up a legacy item in order to do this properly. If you do each hit with your blast does 26d6 damage (I believe) meaning a full attack deals 78d6, and all at no cost to you.

20th level builds are not a good place to start from an optimization standpoint - that's the end of the road for most campaigns.

I'm not sure where you're getting the full attack routine from. EB is a standard action, so you get only one per round. Or are you talking about something else entirely?
Puca
08-24-07, 03:57 PM I think the Eldritch Glaive allows full attack with EB. Thats what Ive heard anyway. I dont have Dragon Magic.

You need a legacy item to qualify for Legacy Champion, so any legacy item will do. Legacy Champion has a progression for your original class abilities, not just spellcasting, so you use it to stack the damage bonus for Hellfire Warlock.:) Oh, no. I dont think so. The Hellfire Warlock is a 3-level PrC, right? You cant progress class abilities beyond the maximum level of the class itself.
EpicEvokerElf
08-24-07, 04:18 PM I think the Eldritch Glaive allows full attack with EB. Thats what Ive heard anyway. I dont have Dragon Magic.

:) Oh, no. I dont think so. The Hellfire Warlock is a 3-level PrC, right? You cant progress class abilities beyond the maximum level of the class itself.
You guys just killed a good thread by mentioning that.
Puca
08-24-07, 04:36 PM You guys just killed a good thread by mentioning that.
???
I doubt that.

If the point of the thread was to give good advice, advising someone that a proposed build is against the rules is not going to kill it.

If the point of the thread was to give advice that was against the rules, and I dont think it was, but if so, then pointing that something is against the rules isnt going to hurt anything.
EpicEvokerElf
08-24-07, 04:44 PM But it's not, by RAW, against the rules.
dman11235
08-24-07, 04:45 PM Read Warlocks and Prestige Classes on page 18 of the complete arcane. Spell casting PrCs stack with warlock for invos and eldritch blast.
Duelpersonality
08-24-07, 05:15 PM :) Oh, no. I dont think so. The Hellfire Warlock is a 3-level PrC, right? You cant progress class abilities beyond the maximum level of the class itself.

I should perhaps have included some more qualifiers to my statement. I in no way condone the use of legacy champion for this purpose. It's cheesy and terrible. Also, the DM has complete control over this PrC, as he or she can simply not add any legacy items to the game. I was just trying to answer the question, and I really needed to interject some opinion in there, it seems. :D
bkdubs123
08-24-07, 06:18 PM But it's not, by RAW, against the rules.

Sure it is. By the very nature of classes and class features it has to be against the rules. Legacy Champion indeed provides a +1 level to existing class features. +1 level. If there are no more levels to grant for a specific class feature you can't grant them one. That's like saying a 20 Wizard should gain higher level spell slots and Epic Spellcasting automatically for having levels in L. Chp. The rules say that the spell casting stops (unless you decide to spend feats). The rules say that the class features of a Prestige Class stop when the Prestige class ends (unless an Epic Progression is provided).
MystErikEry
08-24-07, 09:20 PM Not that particular Prestige class ability. It says it's based on your level in the class (effective or otherwise). Normally abilities just say "as shown on the chart" or "at second level, this is x, and at fourth, it increases to y"...

Adding to a wizard's effective level will increase his Caster Level, after all - not the spells/day, because those rely on the chart (and there's no chart after 20th, and in fact it specifies explicitly that they no longer gain spells per day after that)...
Puca
08-25-07, 01:04 PM But it's not, by RAW, against the rules.The RAW cannot possibly address everything you cant do. Sometime it is just obvious. In this case, the fact that there are no existing rules actually shows why what you are doing is “against the RAW.”

The Legacy Champion grants +1 of class abilities. Thats fine. If you had one level of Hellfire Warlock, 2 levels of a class granting +1 class abilities would be fine; youd have the +6d6*.

But what you are doing is continuing to advance the abilities of the hellfire warlock to 4th, 5th, on to ninth-level. Except it doesnt have those levels. A 4th-level Hellfire Warlock has no class abilities because there is no 4th-level Hellfire Warlock.

What your build does is grant the abilities that you assume a higher-level HW would have. But, there are no rules saying you can use to do this. The closest are epic advancement rules; the mathematical progression is pretty obvious. But this isnt an epic character. And even with epic rules, you cant advance 3-level, or even 5-level, PrCs. (Theres a reason for this, and HW is a good example.)

And that is where your suggested build breaks down. There is no RAW, anywhere, that even hints that what you are suggesting is possible within the rules. When it comes to making up the abilities of nonexistent class-levels, the onus is on you to provide a process or example from the RAW allowing it. And you cant.

If your DM allows this, fine. I dont trouble myself with balance questions in games I dont sit at. If the OPs DM will allow it, again, I dont sit at his table either. But, Im of the opinion that when people ask for advice on these boards, they deserve to know when the advice they are getting is going to justifiably **** their DM off when they try to use it. This is pretty clearly one of those times.

A warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3 can with Eldritch Glaive make iterative touch attacks for 15d6 before feats or items boost it. I think thats pretty decent right there without breaking making up rules to improve it.

* I can see potential problems with advancing the invoking this way. It is similar to the way a +1 spell-casting PrC could not be applied to a +1 arcane and +1 divine PrC like the Mystic Theurge. In this case, I would allow it, but I would tentatively allow it here precisely because it was only a 3-level PrC. What is ok over three levels is not necessarily ok though ten. But, Im not your DM.
________________________
I should perhaps have included some more qualifiers to my statement. I in no way condone the use of legacy champion for this purpose. It's cheesy and terrible. Also, the DM has complete control over this PrC, as he or she can simply not add any legacy items to the game. I was just trying to answer the question, and I really needed to interject some opinion in there, it seems. :DIt isnt the legacy items of the Legacy Champion I have a problem with; it is the non-existence of 4th-level Hellfire Warlocks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nighttree 08-23-07, 01:04 AM	Are there ANY +1 BA per level, +1 caster level/per level prestige classes that a Warlock can qualify for ?
nighttree 08-23-07, 10:58 AM	I guess that's a NO......:weep: How about this then.....can anyone direct me to a "Melee/Glaive-lock" build ?
RobbyPants 08-23-07, 11:01 AM	Are there ANY +1 BA per level, +1 caster level/per level prestige classes that a Warlock can qualify for ? There's only one full BAB/full caster progression PrC that I know of, and it's the Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage). Other than that, all I know of are PrCs with a mostly full caster progression and full BAB. I don't know that a warlock could qualify for Abjurant Champion.
nighttree 08-23-07, 11:57 AM	I don't think a warlock can qualify....requires the ability to CAST 1st level "arcane spells". I could take a level of sorcerer, but I was under the impression that I would HAVE to advance the sorcerer levels, since that is what I used to get into the PrC in the first place?
bkdubs123 08-23-07, 12:16 PM	No, you don't have to advance the sorcerer. +1 Caster level of any arcane caster class. You can use that to advance Warlock.
Jaxgaret 08-23-07, 05:07 PM	I don't think a warlock can qualify....requires the ability to CAST 1st level "arcane spells". I could take a level of sorcerer, but I was under the impression that I would HAVE to advance the sorcerer levels, since that is what I used to get into the PrC in the first place? Take a level of Duskblade instead of Sorcerer if you're going to go that route, for the +1 BAB and MWP, Armored Mage, better HD/saves, etc. You can advance your Warlock invoking with the +1 spellcasting per level.
nighttree 08-23-07, 10:28 PM	Good Idea :D Thanks
zorgling25 08-23-07, 11:03 PM	You can advance your Warlock invoking with the +1 spellcasting per level. No you can't. Read the Warlock's entry on page 18 of Complete Arcane. A Warlock cannot qualify for Prestige Classes with spellcasting level requirements, as he never actually learns to cast spells. Can't cast spells = can't get +1 spellcasting.
Jaxgaret 08-24-07, 02:12 AM	No you can't. Read the Warlock's entry on page 18 of Complete Arcane. Can't cast spells = can't get +1 spellcasting. The question wasn't whether a straight Warlock could qualify for the class, it was whether a multiclassed Arcane/Warlock could level up his Warlock invocations with the +1 spellcasting per level, and the answer is yes. Reference the same page you stated.
bkdubs123 08-24-07, 02:19 AM	lol.
demonic_dante 08-24-07, 02:34 PM	If your trying for a good glaive/blaster lock build (and by good I mean broken) just go warlock9/hellfire warlock3/legacy champion 8. Take the shape soulmeld feat and pick up a legacy item in order to do this properly. If you do each hit with your blast does 26d6 damage (I believe) meaning a full attack deals 78d6, and all at no cost to you.
bkdubs123 08-24-07, 03:10 PM	"A" legacy item? Can you perhaps explain that post a little more throughly? Like what soulmeld it uses, what you actually need the legacy item/champion for? I'm just curious now.
Duelpersonality 08-24-07, 03:22 PM	You need a legacy item to qualify for Legacy Champion, so any legacy item will do. Legacy Champion has a progression for your original class abilities, not just spellcasting, so you use it to stack the damage bonus for Hellfire Warlock.
Jaxgaret 08-24-07, 03:26 PM	If your trying for a good glaive/blaster lock build (and by good I mean broken) just go warlock9/hellfire warlock3/legacy champion 8. Take the shape soulmeld feat and pick up a legacy item in order to do this properly. If you do each hit with your blast does 26d6 damage (I believe) meaning a full attack deals 78d6, and all at no cost to you. 20th level builds are not a good place to start from an optimization standpoint - that's the end of the road for most campaigns. I'm not sure where you're getting the full attack routine from. EB is a standard action, so you get only one per round. Or are you talking about something else entirely?
Puca 08-24-07, 03:57 PM	I think the Eldritch Glaive allows full attack with EB. Thats what Ive heard anyway. I dont have Dragon Magic. You need a legacy item to qualify for Legacy Champion, so any legacy item will do. Legacy Champion has a progression for your original class abilities, not just spellcasting, so you use it to stack the damage bonus for Hellfire Warlock.:) Oh, no. I dont think so. The Hellfire Warlock is a 3-level PrC, right? You cant progress class abilities beyond the maximum level of the class itself.
EpicEvokerElf 08-24-07, 04:18 PM	I think the Eldritch Glaive allows full attack with EB. Thats what Ive heard anyway. I dont have Dragon Magic. :) Oh, no. I dont think so. The Hellfire Warlock is a 3-level PrC, right? You cant progress class abilities beyond the maximum level of the class itself. You guys just killed a good thread by mentioning that.
Puca 08-24-07, 04:36 PM	You guys just killed a good thread by mentioning that. ??? I doubt that. If the point of the thread was to give good advice, advising someone that a proposed build is against the rules is not going to kill it. If the point of the thread was to give advice that was against the rules, and I dont think it was, but if so, then pointing that something is against the rules isnt going to hurt anything.
EpicEvokerElf 08-24-07, 04:44 PM	But it's not, by RAW, against the rules.
dman11235 08-24-07, 04:45 PM	Read Warlocks and Prestige Classes on page 18 of the complete arcane. Spell casting PrCs stack with warlock for invos and eldritch blast.
Duelpersonality 08-24-07, 05:15 PM	:) Oh, no. I dont think so. The Hellfire Warlock is a 3-level PrC, right? You cant progress class abilities beyond the maximum level of the class itself. I should perhaps have included some more qualifiers to my statement. I in no way condone the use of legacy champion for this purpose. It's cheesy and terrible. Also, the DM has complete control over this PrC, as he or she can simply not add any legacy items to the game. I was just trying to answer the question, and I really needed to interject some opinion in there, it seems. :D
bkdubs123 08-24-07, 06:18 PM	But it's not, by RAW, against the rules. Sure it is. By the very nature of classes and class features it has to be against the rules. Legacy Champion indeed provides a +1 level to existing class features. +1 level. If there are no more levels to grant for a specific class feature you can't grant them one. That's like saying a 20 Wizard should gain higher level spell slots and Epic Spellcasting automatically for having levels in L. Chp. The rules say that the spell casting stops (unless you decide to spend feats). The rules say that the class features of a Prestige Class stop when the Prestige class ends (unless an Epic Progression is provided).
MystErikEry 08-24-07, 09:20 PM	Not that particular Prestige class ability. It says it's based on your level in the class (effective or otherwise). Normally abilities just say "as shown on the chart" or "at second level, this is x, and at fourth, it increases to y"... Adding to a wizard's effective level will increase his Caster Level, after all - not the spells/day, because those rely on the chart (and there's no chart after 20th, and in fact it specifies explicitly that they no longer gain spells per day after that)...
Puca 08-25-07, 01:04 PM	But it's not, by RAW, against the rules.The RAW cannot possibly address everything you cant do. Sometime it is just obvious. In this case, the fact that there are no existing rules actually shows why what you are doing is “against the RAW.” The Legacy Champion grants +1 of class abilities. Thats fine. If you had one level of Hellfire Warlock, 2 levels of a class granting +1 class abilities would be fine; youd have the +6d6. But what you are doing is continuing to advance the abilities of the hellfire warlock to 4th, 5th, on to ninth-level. Except it doesnt have those levels. A 4th-level Hellfire Warlock has no class abilities because there is no 4th-level Hellfire Warlock. What your build does is grant the abilities that you assume a higher-level HW would have. But, there are no rules saying you can use to do this. The closest are epic advancement rules; the mathematical progression is pretty obvious. But this isnt an epic character. And even with epic rules, you cant advance 3-level, or even 5-level, PrCs. (Theres a reason for this, and HW is a good example.) And that is where your suggested build breaks down. There is no RAW, anywhere, that even hints that what you are suggesting is possible within the rules. When it comes to making up the abilities of nonexistent class-levels, the onus is on you to provide a process or example from the RAW allowing it. And you cant. If your DM allows this, fine. I dont trouble myself with balance questions in games I dont sit at. If the OPs DM will allow it, again, I dont sit at his table either. But, Im of the opinion that when people ask for advice on these boards, they deserve to know when the advice they are getting is going to justifiably *** their DM off when they try to use it. This is pretty clearly one of those times. A warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3 can with Eldritch Glaive make iterative touch attacks for 15d6 before feats or items boost it. I think thats pretty decent right there without breaking making up rules to improve it. * I can see potential problems with advancing the invoking this way. It is similar to the way a +1 spell-casting PrC could not be applied to a +1 arcane and +1 divine PrC like the Mystic Theurge. In this case, I would allow it, but I would tentatively allow it here precisely because it was only a 3-level PrC. What is ok over three levels is not necessarily ok though ten. But, Im not your DM. ________________________ I should perhaps have included some more qualifiers to my statement. I in no way condone the use of legacy champion for this purpose. It's cheesy and terrible. Also, the DM has complete control over this PrC, as he or she can simply not add any legacy items to the game. I was just trying to answer the question, and I really needed to interject some opinion in there, it seems. :DIt isnt the legacy items of the Legacy Champion I have a problem with; it is the non-existence of 4th-level Hellfire Warlocks.