Full Casting + Bardic Music? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Full Casting + Bardic Music? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DeathlessJuan
02-20-08, 02:15 PM Hi everyone. I was wondering if anyone knows a prestige class that can be taken lvls 5-10 that has full casting + bardic music, but that doesnt require bardic music in the first place?

Or maybe just the first level with +1 spellcasting and bardic music?

I want to make a Wizard 5 / Prestige 5 / Sublime chord and am having a little difficulty with it without losing a caster level.
Cartigan
02-20-08, 02:47 PM Does any prestige class give you a base class feature without having that feature in the first place? You might get Smite, but something as class specific as Wildshape or Bardic Music I havn't seen.
DeathlessJuan
02-20-08, 02:55 PM That's a very good point. Very well then, I will have to take a bard level. Thanks for your help!
Cartigan
02-20-08, 03:00 PM I'm not saying there isn't, but I would give it a very low probability. Maybe some one could look it up.
DeathlessJuan
02-20-08, 03:06 PM If anyone could find such a prestige, I would be very grateful. I probably do not have access to the book but I can go out and buy it.
The_Shaman
02-20-08, 03:11 PM I think the CAdv Virtuoso is your best bet: 9/10 casting, advances some bardic music without requiring it, and gives you some special performances. Its skill rank prerequisites, however, make it unattainable until level 8, as you need lvl 7 to get 10 ranks in a perform skill.

Still worth it for bards and skilled arcanists who meet the prerequisites, though.
Cartigan
02-20-08, 03:12 PM I think the CAdv Virtuoso is your best bet: 9/10 casting, advances some bardic music without requiring it, and gives you some special performances. It requires ACL 1 and some ranks, including 10 in perform.
You would still lose a caster level which I think is what he is trying to avoid.
The_Shaman
02-20-08, 04:44 PM Well, he loses a caster level. Most PrCs that advance bardic music features lose more... or require more. Or both. It works best if you find a way to minimize the lost CL somehow, of course - such as with the Sublime Chord, which is what this build eventually gets. In the OP's build Sublime Chord does the heavy magical hitting anyway; he gets up to level 5 wizard spells at most. Note that he gets lvl 5 wizard spells with wiz 7/virt 3 just as well as he gets them with wiz 10. Of course, I'd use Virtuoso to boost SChord progression anyway; past SC 2, virtuoso levels bring better stuff.

Speaking of which, can you make a wizard/Schord ultimate magus? Due to the calculation of SChord caster level, your wizard CL will be lower - at least at first, which means UMagus gives you a full wizard casting progression. In fact,as SChord uses wizard CL to calculate its own (SC class level + level in another arcane casting class), Ultimate Magus should boost SC progression twice - once on the spontaneous side, and once on the wizard side - meaning not only will it give full wizard CL (as wizard CL will always be lower than wizard level + SC level), but give the Sublime chord a CL equal to the sum of both! Damn it, if this works, the Sublime Chord caster level would become astro-freaking-nomical!

Can someone help here? If this is legal, and it could be made to work, it could be quite fun!
DeathlessJuan
02-20-08, 04:56 PM Yes, you can use this to make an Ultimate Magus, but you have to use the Spontaneous Diviner variant on the wizard to qualify for 1st lvl spontaneous casting. Sublime chords do not get lvl 1 spells.

Spontaneous Diviner 5 / Ultimate Magus 1 / Wizard Prestige 3 / Bard 1 / Sublime chord 1 / Ultimate Magus 2-9

You'll get 9th level casting on both sides.

I'd like to do it without the Bard lvl... I can get Perform as a class skill easy enough (feat), skill points are no problem and caster level is great, but that darned bardic music ability. I'd rather not delay my spell casting by (effectively) 2 levels even though my caster level skyrockets with Ultimate magus.

If we could find bardic music + full casting (for even 1 level dip), we gain sorcerer-like spellcasting and a great deal many more spells. We basically gain a sorcerer's power with a wizards spells known and 1.5x the 9th level spell slots.

If that wont work, we can always go for Nar Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2) vs Sublime Chord
Neraagile
02-20-08, 05:21 PM Speaking of which, can you make a wizard/Schord ultimate magus? Due to the calculation of SChord caster level, your wizard CL will be lower - at least at first, which means UMagus gives you a full wizard casting progression. In fact,as SChord uses wizard CL to calculate its own (SC class level + level in another arcane casting class), Ultimate Magus should boost SC progression twice - once on the spontaneous side, and once on the wizard side - meaning not only will it give full wizard CL (as wizard CL will always be lower than wizard level + SC level), but give the Sublime chord a CL equal to the sum of both! Damn it, if this works, the Sublime Chord caster level would become astro-freaking-nomical!

Edit: Sublime Chord makes the CL of all arcane spellcasting classes to the sum of the Sublime Chord levels + levels in one other acane spellcasting class. so a Wiz -9/Bard - 1/Sublime Chord -1 would have a CL of 10 (including bard).... however a Wizard -5/Incantatrix - 4/Bard -1/Sublime Chord -1 would have a CL of 6 for SC and Bard and 10 for Wiz

Heres why, direct quote: A Sublime Chord's caster level for both her Sublime Chord spell and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her Sublime Chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class.

Edit 2: this is actually really good otherwise it would be broken with demonbinder because they would make an infinite caster level loop (x=x+1 kinda thing).
Cartigan
02-20-08, 05:35 PM Well, he loses a caster level.

As you would for taking a level of Bard.
Jaxgaret
02-20-08, 07:01 PM IIRC you are SOL, OP.

Sorry.
DeathlessJuan
02-20-08, 07:13 PM IIRC you are SOL, OP.

Sorry.Yeah, it does look like I have to drop a caster level to make it work. Bummer

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeathlessJuan 02-20-08, 02:15 PM	Hi everyone. I was wondering if anyone knows a prestige class that can be taken lvls 5-10 that has full casting + bardic music, but that doesnt require bardic music in the first place? Or maybe just the first level with +1 spellcasting and bardic music? I want to make a Wizard 5 / Prestige 5 / Sublime chord and am having a little difficulty with it without losing a caster level.
Cartigan 02-20-08, 02:47 PM	Does any prestige class give you a base class feature without having that feature in the first place? You might get Smite, but something as class specific as Wildshape or Bardic Music I havn't seen.
DeathlessJuan 02-20-08, 02:55 PM	That's a very good point. Very well then, I will have to take a bard level. Thanks for your help!
Cartigan 02-20-08, 03:00 PM	I'm not saying there isn't, but I would give it a very low probability. Maybe some one could look it up.
DeathlessJuan 02-20-08, 03:06 PM	If anyone could find such a prestige, I would be very grateful. I probably do not have access to the book but I can go out and buy it.
The_Shaman 02-20-08, 03:11 PM	I think the CAdv Virtuoso is your best bet: 9/10 casting, advances some bardic music without requiring it, and gives you some special performances. Its skill rank prerequisites, however, make it unattainable until level 8, as you need lvl 7 to get 10 ranks in a perform skill. Still worth it for bards and skilled arcanists who meet the prerequisites, though.
Cartigan 02-20-08, 03:12 PM	I think the CAdv Virtuoso is your best bet: 9/10 casting, advances some bardic music without requiring it, and gives you some special performances. It requires ACL 1 and some ranks, including 10 in perform. You would still lose a caster level which I think is what he is trying to avoid.
The_Shaman 02-20-08, 04:44 PM	Well, he loses a caster level. Most PrCs that advance bardic music features lose more... or require more. Or both. It works best if you find a way to minimize the lost CL somehow, of course - such as with the Sublime Chord, which is what this build eventually gets. In the OP's build Sublime Chord does the heavy magical hitting anyway; he gets up to level 5 wizard spells at most. Note that he gets lvl 5 wizard spells with wiz 7/virt 3 just as well as he gets them with wiz 10. Of course, I'd use Virtuoso to boost SChord progression anyway; past SC 2, virtuoso levels bring better stuff. Speaking of which, can you make a wizard/Schord ultimate magus? Due to the calculation of SChord caster level, your wizard CL will be lower - at least at first, which means UMagus gives you a full wizard casting progression. In fact,as SChord uses wizard CL to calculate its own (SC class level + level in another arcane casting class), Ultimate Magus should boost SC progression twice - once on the spontaneous side, and once on the wizard side - meaning not only will it give full wizard CL (as wizard CL will always be lower than wizard level + SC level), but give the Sublime chord a CL equal to the sum of both! Damn it, if this works, the Sublime Chord caster level would become astro-freaking-nomical! Can someone help here? If this is legal, and it could be made to work, it could be quite fun!
DeathlessJuan 02-20-08, 04:56 PM	Yes, you can use this to make an Ultimate Magus, but you have to use the Spontaneous Diviner variant on the wizard to qualify for 1st lvl spontaneous casting. Sublime chords do not get lvl 1 spells. Spontaneous Diviner 5 / Ultimate Magus 1 / Wizard Prestige 3 / Bard 1 / Sublime chord 1 / Ultimate Magus 2-9 You'll get 9th level casting on both sides. I'd like to do it without the Bard lvl... I can get Perform as a class skill easy enough (feat), skill points are no problem and caster level is great, but that darned bardic music ability. I'd rather not delay my spell casting by (effectively) 2 levels even though my caster level skyrockets with Ultimate magus. If we could find bardic music + full casting (for even 1 level dip), we gain sorcerer-like spellcasting and a great deal many more spells. We basically gain a sorcerer's power with a wizards spells known and 1.5x the 9th level spell slots. If that wont work, we can always go for Nar Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2) vs Sublime Chord
Neraagile 02-20-08, 05:21 PM	Speaking of which, can you make a wizard/Schord ultimate magus? Due to the calculation of SChord caster level, your wizard CL will be lower - at least at first, which means UMagus gives you a full wizard casting progression. In fact,as SChord uses wizard CL to calculate its own (SC class level + level in another arcane casting class), Ultimate Magus should boost SC progression twice - once on the spontaneous side, and once on the wizard side - meaning not only will it give full wizard CL (as wizard CL will always be lower than wizard level + SC level), but give the Sublime chord a CL equal to the sum of both! Damn it, if this works, the Sublime Chord caster level would become astro-freaking-nomical! Edit: Sublime Chord makes the CL of all arcane spellcasting classes to the sum of the Sublime Chord levels + levels in one other acane spellcasting class. so a Wiz -9/Bard - 1/Sublime Chord -1 would have a CL of 10 (including bard).... however a Wizard -5/Incantatrix - 4/Bard -1/Sublime Chord -1 would have a CL of 6 for SC and Bard and 10 for Wiz Heres why, direct quote: A Sublime Chord's caster level for both her Sublime Chord spell and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her Sublime Chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. Edit 2: this is actually really good otherwise it would be broken with demonbinder because they would make an infinite caster level loop (x=x+1 kinda thing).
Cartigan 02-20-08, 05:35 PM	Well, he loses a caster level. As you would for taking a level of Bard.
Jaxgaret 02-20-08, 07:01 PM	IIRC you are SOL, OP. Sorry.
DeathlessJuan 02-20-08, 07:13 PM	IIRC you are SOL, OP. Sorry.Yeah, it does look like I have to drop a caster level to make it work. Bummer