Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nonengel 05-27-07, 06:23 PM	A quick question. I've been trying to convert an old second edition character of mine to 3.5 and by the looks of the current classes and prestige classes available the geomancer prestige cless from complete divine would best capture the flavor of the kit my character had (for those who played 2nd ed, the witch doctor kit). My question is how playable is the geomancer really? It seems interesting but I'm curious as to whether or not its really balanced compared to other spell casters (the biggest worry being that it seems underpowered) Opinions and tips from those who have either played one or seen it in action would be appreciated.
Disciple_of_Juiblex 05-27-07, 06:45 PM	Well you can get into at what 7th level? cleric 3/Wizard 3/ Geomancer 1. Ive personally never played one but every once in awhile i go back to look at it. personally i think on paper it looks like a solid option. And ultimaly how cool is it to cast arcane spells in full plate :D Put just look at some of the things you could grablike one build you could get +5 to your speed, low light vision,gills, weapon finess, scent, rage, wings, and N.A. on top of that if you have your lay line area in in the same thing your caster level is back up to normal. One day i might get around to it, though it have to be in a higher level type game, just to see it at its full potential. at lower levels (like 1-10) it seems to me to be just to far behind, but at higher it definatly takes its own stage.
Jaxgaret 05-27-07, 08:01 PM	It depends on what you mean by "underpowered". Basically, there are two mindsets (or philosophies of play) as to what should be used as the measuring stick to compare classes. Some say that the classes that are the most 'balanced' - in other words, of average power, like the Rogue - should be used for comparison. Others think that all classes should be balanced to the Wizard/Druid/Cleric, which are the most powerful classes, and taking anything less powerful is a bad idea. So, about the Geomancer specifically; if you build it right, your character will be above average in terms of power, but not on the Druid/Wizard/Cleric level. In particular, you should concentrate on either arcane casting or divine casting with your spellcasting progression; arcane is probably a better choice. With each level of Geomancer, only progress one or the other, don't stagger the progression. This means that you only lose three spellcasting levels [or four if you're a spontaneous caster] of the favored side, but gain a fair amount of benefits, particularly if you progress your arcane casting. These benefits will, of course, not be as good as what you would have had with full arcane spellcasting progression. But they're definitely not bad, by any means, and you can take the Practiced Spellcaster feat to bring your CL (caster level) back up to your full HD. Even if you build it poorly, you will still fall smack in the middle of the power spectrum, even with the Barbarians, Bards, Rangers, etc.
utilitarian 05-27-07, 10:03 PM	Geomancer also has access to some of the more "elusive" traits that folks like to have on characters, such as Pounce. While I agree that focusing on one of your casting trees is a good idea, I'd personally reccomend Cleric over Wizard. Why? Most of the benefits of Geomancer favor melee options. Cleric offers superior melee augmenting spells and Divine feats to really turn you into a powerhouse. Divine Power, Divine Might, these sorts of things can get you full BAB, increased size, strength, temporary HP... without sacrificing your spellcasting ability. The Wizard options to do similar things like Tenser's Transformation and Nightstalker's Transformation sacrifice your spellcasting ability, and just generally don't stack up. Coming from someone who played an Arcane caster with melee backup (Dragon Disciple, I know, a poor choice) I just found myself wishing I had either full magical power or full melee power.
Ander Spectacular 05-29-07, 09:15 AM	Geomancer is pretty worthless unless you want to make a natural attack styke character. I believe you can get 5+ natural attacks from geomancer. Other than that, it is worthless. So a geomancer focused on Cleric spells would be using combos like divine power, righteous might, divine favor, etc with Wraith strike so that all of those attacks hit nice and hard. -AS-
Jaxgaret 05-29-07, 01:23 PM	Geomancer is pretty worthless unless you want to make a natural attack styke character. I believe you can get 5+ natural attacks from geomancer. Other than that, it is worthless. Going back to my point in my first post in this thread, this is an example of a player that uses the Druid/Wizard/Cleric as the measuring stick. Any class that doesn't compete with those in terms of power is "worthless". In other words, any character build that falls below the top of the power spectrum is unplayable. Which, to many people, makes no sense.
Karzach 05-29-07, 01:40 PM	Oneof the things I don't like about the geomancer is, if you try and qualify for it at your earliest possible level (7) you're fairly subpar for what you could be with your chosen classes. Not enough healing spells to be the heal bot, not enough arcane spells to handle the wizardly thing, and not enough caster level to do much crafting (without spending a feat). The other oddball issue I have is that you end up looking like a circus sideshow freak at 10th level Geomancer heh. The drift largely supports physical bonuses, rather than casterly ones. The odd spread of abilities makes it a little harder to find a niche in the party, other than maybe being a replacement bard.
Ander Spectacular 05-29-07, 04:19 PM	Going back to my point in my first post in this thread, this is an example of a player that uses the Druid/Wizard/Cleric as the measuring stick. Any class that doesn't compete with those in terms of power is "worthless". In other words, any character build that falls below the top of the power spectrum is unplayable. Which, to many people, makes no sense. Trying to dispute my words does not lessen the worthlessness of geomancer. Read the class and its abilities. They don't make sense, and there are at least 3 other classes that provide caster level increases for both divine and arcane. Geomancer suffers from bad design syndrome, thats why they hang out with all the Animal Lords from Complete Adventurer. -AS-
Khatoblepas 05-29-07, 06:40 PM	It is worth it, somewhat. In gestalt. Bard 9/War Weaver 1/Sublime Chord 1/War Weaver 4/Geomancer +5// Cleric 4/Geomancer 5/Cleric +1/Geomancer +1/Cleric +10 Ending up with: Bard 9/War Weaver 5/Sublime Chord 1/Geomancer 5// Cleric 15/Geomancer 5 You get: - Persistant Divine Metamagic on both arcane and divine spells. - Cha casting everywhere (No MAD :) ). - 9th level arcane and divine, 5th level on both in the Weave. - No Arcane Spell Failure, ever. - No loss in caster level. : ) - Inspire Greatness in bardic music! But then again, it could just be the mechanics of gestalt doing that. - The thing with early entrying on Geomancer is that though it's spell-versatility only starts with Cantrips, it quickly catches up to you. By level 9, you've already got up to 4th level spells, which is more than your entire bard thing. And most often what you'll be using in your weave. While in Full plate. Geomancer isn't totally worthless... I've got to find a way to make it not suck without gestalt! D:
Jaxgaret 05-29-07, 10:38 PM	Trying to dispute my words does not lessen the worthlessness of geomancer. Read the class and its abilities. They don't make sense, and there are at least 3 other classes that provide caster level increases for both divine and arcane. Geomancer suffers from bad design syndrome, thats why they hang out with all the Animal Lords from Complete Adventurer. -AS- I am not disputing your words. I am just stating that there are different viewpoints on that particular issue of how to measure classes. IMO a Wizard7/Divine3/Geomancer10 would be - and disagree with me if you like - at least as powerful as a straight Rogue20 all the way through its power curve, from level 1-20. Levels 10-13 of this build will be tougher than the rest, assuredly, but the character will not be useless to the party by any means. For trading away three levels of spellcasting (no loss to CL if you take Practiced Spellcaster), the character gains these benefits from the Geomancer PrC: Slightly better HD. d6 vs. d4. More skill points. 4 vs. 2. Ley Lines CL bonus. If your campaign focuses on certain types of terrain, this is very useful. If not, it still has its use. Spell Versatility. Cast your Arcane spells as Divine spells, if that will benefit you. There are situations where this will come in handy. Also, this confers some minor benefits like making spell components unnecessary. Drift. Drift is no gamebreaker in terms of power, but these are the benefits that will probably help a caster the most by level: 2nd: +5 land speed and low-light vision (or halving progressive damage if you already have LLV) 3rd: +4 on all Spot checks 4th: Scent and Boar's Ferocity 5th: Blindsense, Tremorsense, Natural Flight or +1 Natural Armor. Note that many of these bonuses are to perception. Sometimes it's nice to have additional ways to sense opponents (particularly non-magically-aided undetectable foes), even with arcane measures in place to assist you. So, all in all, I say that is definitely not a bad class. Please take your time to rebutt what I have said :) P.S. You can also build it as Wiz3/Div3/MT4/Geo10. But that is not really playable in the low levels; it is more of a build for a game that starts at high level.
Ander Spectacular 05-30-07, 11:55 AM	Almost all of the abilities can be replicated more effectively by a single class caster. PrCs that offer weaker benefits than a single core class do not help a character. If you were building a geomancer that was designed to be a melee combatant, the class is slightly more useful, but still weaker than a real melee class would be. The class could be cool, but without dual-casting its not super helpful. Being able to wear armor and cast arcane spells? Simply cast greater mage armor or any other buff spell to duplicate that ability. Need enhanced senses, spells can do it better. Clerics can get blindsense 60' with a 3rd level spell. I have tried to make the gemonacer useful before, but have been unable to make it competitive with higher level challenges. It works much better to mix casting PrCs like Suel Arcanamach and Divine Crusader, but even then you still have the problem of usefulness. Perhaps some sort of Paladin or Ranger mixed with an arcane class could help, but there is always a better option than geomancer. Remember Drift 5 choices are available at roughly 15th level, and at 15th level things like a fly speed, blindsense and tremorsense are weak additions to a characters repertoire. This becomes even more apparent the more books they release which increases the power of characters far more dramatically than geomancer does. Even from a simple design angle, geomancer can be replicated far more effectively by other classes. -AS-
madbliza 05-30-07, 12:48 PM	I created one with the Favored Soul and Sorceror. That way my spells rely only one one stat, allowing me to focus on strength or constitution to bring up my fighter end. Still, the set spell list was annoying.
drade 05-30-07, 04:48 PM	When using gestalt I had a player go into it. He waited until 9cleric/warmage9 then moved into Geomancer. 3 lvls into Geomancer he hated it. Wasn't really what he wanted. Also by this time he was wishing that he wouldn't have taken Warmage stating there are so many things that he could have take over it. Over all I think if your taking Geomancer it should be for roleplayin reasons. But however in terms of power it falls short just a bit.
Jaxgaret 05-30-07, 08:19 PM	It works much better to mix casting PrCs like Suel Arcanamach and Divine Crusader, but even then you still have the problem of usefulness. Perhaps some sort of Paladin or Ranger mixed with an arcane class could help, but there is always a better option than geomancer. Remember Drift 5 choices are available at roughly 15th level, and at 15th level things like a fly speed, blindsense and tremorsense are weak additions to a characters repertoire. This becomes even more apparent the more books they release which increases the power of characters far more dramatically than geomancer does. Even from a simple design angle, geomancer can be replicated far more effectively by other classes. -AS- I understand that almost any Geomancer build will be less efficacious than a straight spellcaster build. But that is most certainly not the same thing as saying that it is completely useless. You still have not answered my question. Is a basic Geomancer build (Wiz7/Div3/Geomancer10) significantly less powerful than a Rogue20, throughout its power curve? Also, there are ways to build around the Geomancer PrC to improve its effectiveness. One obvious way is: Bard7/Div3/SublimeChord1/Geomancer9.
Khatoblepas 05-30-07, 08:39 PM	Monk 1/Bard 5/Ur-Priest 2/Geomancer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Geomancer 8? You get 9th level spells.. I think. Divine Metamagic, anyone?
Jaxgaret 05-30-07, 08:45 PM	Monk 1/Bard 5/Ur-Priest 2 Heh, one of my favorite characters was a Zenythri Monk1/Bard4/Ur-PriestX named Humble Pie. Hum for short. He took Perform (Humming). :)
nonengel 06-06-07, 03:28 PM	Hmm.... some interesting viewpoints have been brought up in this and I thank everyone who has replied. I think right now my biggest issue with the class after working through a few builds is that if i went with the basic arcane x levels/divine y levels/geomancer 10 levels one of its main features, the versatility benefit isn't giving that much at higher levels. Sure its great that I could pick between my casting traits/requirements for the best combo in any spell between 0 and 9th level but at the point I won't have 9th level spells (unless I never advanced beyond level 2 spells in one of my core casting classes) until I've gone epic. One thing I have looked at is the following build. Druid 4/sorcerer 4/geomancer 6 (all 6 spell casting increases would go to druid)/ arcane hierophant 6. Any opinions on that build?