Gestalt PrCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt PrCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ArchmageOmega
10-19-07, 06:12 PM I've been thinking about this for a bit and I want to add some PrCs to my gestalt game, but most of the existing ones aren't really suited to gestalt play. What I'd like is to have some PrCs that are gestalt only (taking both slots). One example would be a Warrior Poet based on Barbarian//Bard (my group calls this the Bardarian). The Mystic Theurge would be another one, although it'd have to be rewritten.

So far, I haven't written anything down, but what I think I should do is write out the base class, then at the desired level, mark down the prerequisites and then trade some abilities for other, unique abilities. Does this sound like a good way of making such a thing? Has anyone else already done something like this?
vorpo
10-19-07, 06:51 PM Most, if not all, of the PrC are designed outside of the gestalt concept. Have a single PrC that takes up both slots of a gestalt would probably be the best way to cope with PrC in gestalt game. All that said, every combination would warrant its own PrC and they have to be written down for us to see to really judge it. Your way of designing would give a workable PrC that combines 2 base classes but will not be very uniquely flavorful.
ArchmageOmega
10-20-07, 02:49 AM Another possibility would be to try and combine three classes into something balanced. :D I think that may be a bit too complicated though. Can you suggest anything else? All I can think of is to change around the drawbacks and abilites to give different variations, but that's much more limited in a gestalt game. (Compare the number of types of Fighters or Wizards to the number of types of Fighter//Wizards or Barbarian//Bards.)
StruckingFuggle
10-20-07, 03:55 AM I've been thinking about this for a bit and I want to add some PrCs to my gestalt game, but most of the existing ones aren't really suited to gestalt play.

I'm curious ... why's this?

What I'd like is to have some PrCs that are gestalt only (taking both slots). One example would be a Warrior Poet based on Barbarian//Bard (my group calls this the Bardarian). The Mystic Theurge would be another one, although it'd have to be rewritten.

Why would you ever take Mystic Theurge in a gestalt game if it took both sides? You'd be better off as a Wizard/Cleric in every way... o.o (and I don't just mean mechanically).
ArchmageOmega
10-20-07, 06:32 AM I'm curious ... why's this?

Just to give my players some more options really, and to help develop the setting a little further. No really good reason I suppose. I just want to. Or did you mean why the normal ones aren't suitable? In that case, I'd say that they are mostly unbalanced as part of a gestalt. That's why most people suggest that PrCs either take both slots or be banned in gestalt play AFAICT.

Why would you ever take Mystic Theurge in a gestalt game if it took both sides? You'd be better off as a Wizard/Cleric in every way... o.o (and I don't just mean mechanically).

That's why I said it'd have to be rewritten (as a gestalt PrC).
StruckingFuggle
10-20-07, 12:27 PM In that case, I'd say that they are mostly unbalanced as part of a gestalt. That's why most people suggest that PrCs either take both slots or be banned in gestalt play AFAICT.

Huh. I personally never really noticed that, either in my games or in general when the topic comes up.
ArchmageOmega
10-20-07, 03:31 PM Prestige Classes
The high-powered nature of the gestalt character variant gives you more room to create unique prestige classes. First, you can create narrowly specialized prestige classes, and they’ll still be compelling choices for PCs because the characters can simultaneously advance in a regular class while taking levels in the prestige class. Players won’t feel shoehorned into a very specific prestige class if they have another class they’re also advancing in. Second, you can create truly outrageous prestige classes-but add the additional cost that such classes take up both class choices for gestalt characters. For example, a prestige class that offered a d12 Hit Die, +1/level base attack bonus, two good saves, full spellcasting, and a host of class features would be completely unbalanced in a standard game. But if it takes up both “class slots” for a gestalt characters, it’s no more powerful than taking a level in the barbarian/wizard gestalt.

It doesn't actually say that old prestige classes should be banned, but consider how much easier it is to get in to a PrC. You can get improved evasion by second level, etc. True, BAB and Skill are still limiting factors, but without some houserules, you can take Fighter or Rouge at the same time as your PrC so you'll quickly be ready for the next one, or you could take two PrCs at once.
StruckingFuggle
10-20-07, 04:35 PM It doesn't actually say that old prestige classes should be banned, but consider how much easier it is to get in to a PrC. You can get improved evasion by second level, etc. True, BAB and Skill are still limiting factors, but without some houserules, you can take Fighter or Rouge at the same time as your PrC so you'll quickly be ready for the next one, or you could take two PrCs at once.

First: the basic gestalt rules say no doubling up on PrCs.

Second: House rules are easy. You can figure out the general normal prc entry level fairly quickly and say "no getting in before this level, regardless of what you have." :)
ArchmageOmega
10-20-07, 09:30 PM Ah. Missed that, but I'm still sticking with the idea of some gestalt only PrCs. Do you have any suggestions for good ways to make them interesting but not overpowering?
vorpo
10-20-07, 09:49 PM Ah. Missed that, but I'm still sticking with the idea of some gestalt only PrCs. Do you have any suggestions for good ways to make them interesting but not overpowering?

Gestalt PrCs are as varied with possibilities as normal PrCs. You will need to give more specifications. Better yet, have your own player submit their PrC and post them here for criticism.
ArchmageOmega
10-21-07, 02:09 AM Actually, I suppose that's a good idea.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ArchmageOmega 10-19-07, 06:12 PM	I've been thinking about this for a bit and I want to add some PrCs to my gestalt game, but most of the existing ones aren't really suited to gestalt play. What I'd like is to have some PrCs that are gestalt only (taking both slots). One example would be a Warrior Poet based on Barbarian//Bard (my group calls this the Bardarian). The Mystic Theurge would be another one, although it'd have to be rewritten. So far, I haven't written anything down, but what I think I should do is write out the base class, then at the desired level, mark down the prerequisites and then trade some abilities for other, unique abilities. Does this sound like a good way of making such a thing? Has anyone else already done something like this?
vorpo 10-19-07, 06:51 PM	Most, if not all, of the PrC are designed outside of the gestalt concept. Have a single PrC that takes up both slots of a gestalt would probably be the best way to cope with PrC in gestalt game. All that said, every combination would warrant its own PrC and they have to be written down for us to see to really judge it. Your way of designing would give a workable PrC that combines 2 base classes but will not be very uniquely flavorful.
ArchmageOmega 10-20-07, 02:49 AM	Another possibility would be to try and combine three classes into something balanced. :D I think that may be a bit too complicated though. Can you suggest anything else? All I can think of is to change around the drawbacks and abilites to give different variations, but that's much more limited in a gestalt game. (Compare the number of types of Fighters or Wizards to the number of types of Fighter//Wizards or Barbarian//Bards.)
StruckingFuggle 10-20-07, 03:55 AM	I've been thinking about this for a bit and I want to add some PrCs to my gestalt game, but most of the existing ones aren't really suited to gestalt play. I'm curious ... why's this? What I'd like is to have some PrCs that are gestalt only (taking both slots). One example would be a Warrior Poet based on Barbarian//Bard (my group calls this the Bardarian). The Mystic Theurge would be another one, although it'd have to be rewritten. Why would you ever take Mystic Theurge in a gestalt game if it took both sides? You'd be better off as a Wizard/Cleric in every way... o.o (and I don't just mean mechanically).
ArchmageOmega 10-20-07, 06:32 AM	I'm curious ... why's this? Just to give my players some more options really, and to help develop the setting a little further. No really good reason I suppose. I just want to. Or did you mean why the normal ones aren't suitable? In that case, I'd say that they are mostly unbalanced as part of a gestalt. That's why most people suggest that PrCs either take both slots or be banned in gestalt play AFAICT. Why would you ever take Mystic Theurge in a gestalt game if it took both sides? You'd be better off as a Wizard/Cleric in every way... o.o (and I don't just mean mechanically). That's why I said it'd have to be rewritten (as a gestalt PrC).
StruckingFuggle 10-20-07, 12:27 PM	In that case, I'd say that they are mostly unbalanced as part of a gestalt. That's why most people suggest that PrCs either take both slots or be banned in gestalt play AFAICT. Huh. I personally never really noticed that, either in my games or in general when the topic comes up.
ArchmageOmega 10-20-07, 03:31 PM	Prestige Classes The high-powered nature of the gestalt character variant gives you more room to create unique prestige classes. First, you can create narrowly specialized prestige classes, and they’ll still be compelling choices for PCs because the characters can simultaneously advance in a regular class while taking levels in the prestige class. Players won’t feel shoehorned into a very specific prestige class if they have another class they’re also advancing in. Second, you can create truly outrageous prestige classes-but add the additional cost that such classes take up both class choices for gestalt characters. For example, a prestige class that offered a d12 Hit Die, +1/level base attack bonus, two good saves, full spellcasting, and a host of class features would be completely unbalanced in a standard game. But if it takes up both “class slots” for a gestalt characters, it’s no more powerful than taking a level in the barbarian/wizard gestalt. It doesn't actually say that old prestige classes should be banned, but consider how much easier it is to get in to a PrC. You can get improved evasion by second level, etc. True, BAB and Skill are still limiting factors, but without some houserules, you can take Fighter or Rouge at the same time as your PrC so you'll quickly be ready for the next one, or you could take two PrCs at once.
StruckingFuggle 10-20-07, 04:35 PM	It doesn't actually say that old prestige classes should be banned, but consider how much easier it is to get in to a PrC. You can get improved evasion by second level, etc. True, BAB and Skill are still limiting factors, but without some houserules, you can take Fighter or Rouge at the same time as your PrC so you'll quickly be ready for the next one, or you could take two PrCs at once. First: the basic gestalt rules say no doubling up on PrCs. Second: House rules are easy. You can figure out the general normal prc entry level fairly quickly and say "no getting in before this level, regardless of what you have." :)
ArchmageOmega 10-20-07, 09:30 PM	Ah. Missed that, but I'm still sticking with the idea of some gestalt only PrCs. Do you have any suggestions for good ways to make them interesting but not overpowering?
vorpo 10-20-07, 09:49 PM	Ah. Missed that, but I'm still sticking with the idea of some gestalt only PrCs. Do you have any suggestions for good ways to make them interesting but not overpowering? Gestalt PrCs are as varied with possibilities as normal PrCs. You will need to give more specifications. Better yet, have your own player submit their PrC and post them here for criticism.
ArchmageOmega 10-21-07, 02:09 AM	Actually, I suppose that's a good idea.