gish questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

gish questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
danzibr
06-26-07, 11:29 AM Q1: What does gish mean? I know it's a term for fighter/casters and I assume it is not an acronym because it's not capitalized, but where does the term come from?

Q2: What is the best gish build? I'm sure this is debatable, but what are some of the best? I read about the Swiftblade recently and they seem pretty good, and I know Eldritch Knight is alright, but what are some really good gish PrC's (or base classes, but I'd assume there's more PrC's) and what books are they in?

Dan
schnynkle
06-26-07, 01:47 PM Gish as a term to describe fighter/casters comes from Githayanki lore. According to the Monster Manual (p.127) Githyankis encountered outside their homes are mostly fighters but there are also wizards (called warlocks) and mutliclass (called gish).
RobbyPants
06-26-07, 01:53 PM Q2: What is the best gish build? I'm sure this is debatable, but what are some of the best? I read about the Swiftblade recently and they seem pretty good, and I know Eldritch Knight is alright, but what are some really good gish PrC's (or base classes, but I'd assume there's more PrC's) and what books are they in?
This is a tough question to easily answer. It largely depends on what you want out of your build. The typical "best" gish build tries to maximize your BAB and casting progression. As a general rule of thumb when picking your class levels, a caster level increase will almost always do you more good than some other class feature.

With that in mind, here is my favorite gish build:

Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 10. This is a nice build in that you get (at 20th level) a BAB of +17 and a caster level of 17. Also, with three levels of Spellsword, you can ignore 15% of arcane spell failure (ASF). This is enough to cast in Twilight Mithril Fullplate with 0% ASF.

I came up with that build before the Complete Mage came out. Assuming you meet the prerequs (which you almost certainly will), swapping out 5 levels of Eldritch Knight for 5 levels of Abjurant Chamion is only a good thing.

One bad thing about this build is that it's tough to pull off at low levels. it doesn't really start to pay off until about 8th to 10th level. As for the order of levels for the build (if playing from level 1), I'd suggest the following:

Wizard 1 - make sure you take enlarge person as a spell at this point.
Fighter 1 - utilize the heck out of enlarge person.
Wizard 2 - 6 get your caster levels up!
Spellsword 1 - 3 - you want to get the ability to wear armor soon.
Abjurant Champion 1 - 5 - it's better than Eldritch Knight, so why not?
Eldritch Knight 1 - 5 - just to fill up until 20th level.

The sooner you can get your hands on a Twilight Mithrilshirt (0% ASF), the better.

One other thing to do is look at what the three typical gish PrCs offer:
Eldritch Knight (found in DMG): Really, this class is just for filler. It offers a full BAB progression and 9/10 casting. The two downsides are that your first level has no caster level increase, and the class has no other special features. Again, it's good filler, so only fill in levels with this once you have what you want from the other PrCs.
Spellsword (found in Complete Arcane):The first three levels of this class are in every way superior to the first three of Eldritch Knight. Now, because you only get caster level increases on the odd levels, I don't like taking this one past 3rd level. As I stated earlier, caster levels are going to get you further than class abilities, so at 4th level, your channel spell feature probably won't be good enough to justify losing a caster level in this class.
Abjurant Champion (found in Complete Mage):This is by far the best gish PrC. You get both a full BAB progression and a full (5/5) caster progression. In addition, you get all sorts of useful class features. The only real downside is that it's a five level class, so you'll run out quickly.

There's also the Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer 18 build, which is more simple, but it has it's plusses. You get to add your primary casting stat to all of your saves. With the battle caster feat, you can cast in medium armor with no ASF. This allows you to cast in mithril fullplate. The only real downside (apart from the alignment) is that you only get a BAB of +15 (3 attacks, instead of the 4 you get at BAB +16). The Battle Sorcerer is a sorcerer variant found in Unearthed Arcana.
danzibr
06-26-07, 03:46 PM Wow, that's probably the most useful response I've gotten to a post... ever. Thank you!

Alright, so I should get Complete Mage and Complete Arcane next... oh, and what's Twilight armor? Does that help with arcane spell failure?

Thanks again.

Dan
RobbyPants
06-26-07, 03:53 PM Wow, that's probably the most useful response I've gotten to a post... ever. Thank you!
Thanks: :D That's probably the nicest compliment I've gotten on the boards! :blush: It's a combination of personal insight, and things I've read on many other threads.

Alright, so I should get Complete Mage and Complete Arcane next... oh, and what's Twilight armor? Does that help with arcane spell failure?
Twilight is printed in two places. It was originally printed in the Book of Exalted Deeds, and was re-printed in the Player's Handbook II. There's a good chance it's also in the Magic Item Compendium, but I'm not sure.

Basically, it's a +1 enchantment that reduces the arcane spell failure (ASF) of an armor by 10%. Now you can see why I like it so much with a 3rd level spellsword. Just to clear the math up:

At 3rd level, a Spellsword can ignore up to 15% ASF.
Fullplate has 35% ASF.
If made of mithril, it reduces the ASF by 10% (down to 25%).
With the Twilight enchantment, it is further reduced 10% (down to 15%)...
...which means that a 3rd level Spellsword can wear it and cast with impunity.

Awesomesauce!
SilverXXX
06-26-07, 04:11 PM This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) is setting specific and has stricter requirements, but is better than eldritch knight.
The_Shaman
06-26-07, 06:08 PM Gish tends to mean high-performance warrior/(arcane)caster hybrids, usually involving multiclassing and PrCs. Manifester/warrior hybrids and divine caster/warrior hybrids are less popular, but exist (Slayer, Sanctified mind, Hospitaller, some specialty priests) Some PrCs that might help with a gish build are:

EK: use as filler; possibly substitute for Phantom Knight 9/10 progression
Spellsword: use 1 to 3 levels (3 levels equal 1 lost caster level). If you do not care about ASF - say you have high dex and are okay with Mithral chain - you may consider the Dragonslayer (Draconomicon). Both are 5/10 progression
Abjurant champion: best. 5/5 progression, easy prerequisites
Fist of Raziel: LG and violent about it. Book of Exalted Deeds, 9/10 progression
Topaz Guardian: While not among the greatest, it is powerful. 3/5 progression, featured in Lords of Madness.

Other classes with medium BAB and full casting progression (Master of Yuirwood, Evereskan Tomb Guardian) can also work, but gishes are characterized by their fighting abilities as much as by their casting. Generally, unless you have 16+ BAB, you could improve.

Other PrCs can be useful if needed. The paladin/BSorc combo can take a little AChamp, EK or any of the others

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
danzibr 06-26-07, 11:29 AM	Q1: What does gish mean? I know it's a term for fighter/casters and I assume it is not an acronym because it's not capitalized, but where does the term come from? Q2: What is the best gish build? I'm sure this is debatable, but what are some of the best? I read about the Swiftblade recently and they seem pretty good, and I know Eldritch Knight is alright, but what are some really good gish PrC's (or base classes, but I'd assume there's more PrC's) and what books are they in? Dan
schnynkle 06-26-07, 01:47 PM	Gish as a term to describe fighter/casters comes from Githayanki lore. According to the Monster Manual (p.127) Githyankis encountered outside their homes are mostly fighters but there are also wizards (called warlocks) and mutliclass (called gish).
RobbyPants 06-26-07, 01:53 PM	Q2: What is the best gish build? I'm sure this is debatable, but what are some of the best? I read about the Swiftblade recently and they seem pretty good, and I know Eldritch Knight is alright, but what are some really good gish PrC's (or base classes, but I'd assume there's more PrC's) and what books are they in? This is a tough question to easily answer. It largely depends on what you want out of your build. The typical "best" gish build tries to maximize your BAB and casting progression. As a general rule of thumb when picking your class levels, a caster level increase will almost always do you more good than some other class feature. With that in mind, here is my favorite gish build: Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 10. This is a nice build in that you get (at 20th level) a BAB of +17 and a caster level of 17. Also, with three levels of Spellsword, you can ignore 15% of arcane spell failure (ASF). This is enough to cast in Twilight Mithril Fullplate with 0% ASF. I came up with that build before the Complete Mage came out. Assuming you meet the prerequs (which you almost certainly will), swapping out 5 levels of Eldritch Knight for 5 levels of Abjurant Chamion is only a good thing. One bad thing about this build is that it's tough to pull off at low levels. it doesn't really start to pay off until about 8th to 10th level. As for the order of levels for the build (if playing from level 1), I'd suggest the following: Wizard 1 - make sure you take enlarge person as a spell at this point. Fighter 1 - utilize the heck out of enlarge person. Wizard 2 - 6 get your caster levels up! Spellsword 1 - 3 - you want to get the ability to wear armor soon. Abjurant Champion 1 - 5 - it's better than Eldritch Knight, so why not? Eldritch Knight 1 - 5 - just to fill up until 20th level. The sooner you can get your hands on a Twilight Mithrilshirt (0% ASF), the better. One other thing to do is look at what the three typical gish PrCs offer: Eldritch Knight (found in DMG): Really, this class is just for filler. It offers a full BAB progression and 9/10 casting. The two downsides are that your first level has no caster level increase, and the class has no other special features. Again, it's good filler, so only fill in levels with this once you have what you want from the other PrCs. Spellsword (found in Complete Arcane):The first three levels of this class are in every way superior to the first three of Eldritch Knight. Now, because you only get caster level increases on the odd levels, I don't like taking this one past 3rd level. As I stated earlier, caster levels are going to get you further than class abilities, so at 4th level, your channel spell feature probably won't be good enough to justify losing a caster level in this class. Abjurant Champion (found in Complete Mage):This is by far the best gish PrC. You get both a full BAB progression and a full (5/5) caster progression. In addition, you get all sorts of useful class features. The only real downside is that it's a five level class, so you'll run out quickly. There's also the Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer 18 build, which is more simple, but it has it's plusses. You get to add your primary casting stat to all of your saves. With the battle caster feat, you can cast in medium armor with no ASF. This allows you to cast in mithril fullplate. The only real downside (apart from the alignment) is that you only get a BAB of +15 (3 attacks, instead of the 4 you get at BAB +16). The Battle Sorcerer is a sorcerer variant found in Unearthed Arcana.
danzibr 06-26-07, 03:46 PM	Wow, that's probably the most useful response I've gotten to a post... ever. Thank you! Alright, so I should get Complete Mage and Complete Arcane next... oh, and what's Twilight armor? Does that help with arcane spell failure? Thanks again. Dan
RobbyPants 06-26-07, 03:53 PM	Wow, that's probably the most useful response I've gotten to a post... ever. Thank you! Thanks: :D That's probably the nicest compliment I've gotten on the boards! :blush: It's a combination of personal insight, and things I've read on many other threads. Alright, so I should get Complete Mage and Complete Arcane next... oh, and what's Twilight armor? Does that help with arcane spell failure? Twilight is printed in two places. It was originally printed in the Book of Exalted Deeds, and was re-printed in the Player's Handbook II. There's a good chance it's also in the Magic Item Compendium, but I'm not sure. Basically, it's a +1 enchantment that reduces the arcane spell failure (ASF) of an armor by 10%. Now you can see why I like it so much with a 3rd level spellsword. Just to clear the math up: At 3rd level, a Spellsword can ignore up to 15% ASF. Fullplate has 35% ASF. If made of mithril, it reduces the ASF by 10% (down to 25%). With the Twilight enchantment, it is further reduced 10% (down to 15%)... ...which means that a 3rd level Spellsword can wear it and cast with impunity. Awesomesauce!
SilverXXX 06-26-07, 04:11 PM	This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) is setting specific and has stricter requirements, but is better than eldritch knight.
The_Shaman 06-26-07, 06:08 PM	Gish tends to mean high-performance warrior/(arcane)caster hybrids, usually involving multiclassing and PrCs. Manifester/warrior hybrids and divine caster/warrior hybrids are less popular, but exist (Slayer, Sanctified mind, Hospitaller, some specialty priests) Some PrCs that might help with a gish build are: EK: use as filler; possibly substitute for Phantom Knight 9/10 progression Spellsword: use 1 to 3 levels (3 levels equal 1 lost caster level). If you do not care about ASF - say you have high dex and are okay with Mithral chain - you may consider the Dragonslayer (Draconomicon). Both are 5/10 progression Abjurant champion: best. 5/5 progression, easy prerequisites Fist of Raziel: LG and violent about it. Book of Exalted Deeds, 9/10 progression Topaz Guardian: While not among the greatest, it is powerful. 3/5 progression, featured in Lords of Madness. Other classes with medium BAB and full casting progression (Master of Yuirwood, Evereskan Tomb Guardian) can also work, but gishes are characterized by their fighting abilities as much as by their casting. Generally, unless you have 16+ BAB, you could improve. Other PrCs can be useful if needed. The paladin/BSorc combo can take a little AChamp, EK or any of the others