Good requirements? Where? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Good requirements? Where? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
imakuni67
08-16-07, 02:48 PM I've been wondering why a lot of PRC's have useless non-flavorful requirements sometimes. I will give you my example: The Dragonslayer from Draconomicon. I can see Dodge and 2 ranks of Tumble being very good flavorful requirements to adapt the class, but Iron Will? Why? My biggest puzzle comes from the fact that there is better choices in the same book than Iron Will. Dragon Defense or Dragonfoe! Come on! I could probably think of many other examples...

Skills are good requirements for flavor reasons and to make think forwards towards taking the class. Tumble is a cross-class for most base classes but it makes sense. Spending 4 ranks to get into Dragonslaying seems well worth it. Feats need to be better chosen though across the board when it comes to PRC requirements. Anyone agree?
JellyPooga
08-16-07, 03:02 PM Heh, there are many PrC's with dumb requirements, take the Invisible Blade for example: PBS and Far Shot for a Melee oriented PrC?
ZeronHitaro
08-16-07, 03:03 PM Frightful Presence (Ex)

A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 30 feet × the dragon’s age category are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

Iron Will is perfectly fine. Lot of good all those Dragon slaying feats do you if you're running away screaming like a little 30 year old elven girl.
Puca
08-16-07, 03:17 PM I dont think having lame prereqs is a bad thing. It can be a balance issue.

IMHO, if a PrC has only prereqs you were going to take anyway, and then gives a host of cool abilities without asking you to give anything up, its a bad PrC.

I believe that when you see a prereq that is a feat you would never, ever take normally, it is a safe bet that it was intended to be a "cost" of entry.
The_Shaman
08-16-07, 07:50 PM Dragonslayer does not, unfortunately, even crack the top 10 for weird prerequisites. Mental fortitude is, indeed, useful for fighting dragons. Now, dodge on Dwarven defender? Come on, those guys are about as mobile as the mountain.

As for the "weird prerequisites - balance" idea, it has always seemed wrong to me. If the prerequisite does not make sense, then it shouldn't be there, powerful or no. You can always include a RP prerequisite if you are worried that people left and right would get it.
imakuni67
08-17-07, 11:28 AM But considering you are immune to Dragon Fear starting at first level...but I do agree that RP or strange requirements are better requirements. Rite of intiation are also very flavorful. I liked the one for the Nerull worshipping Monk PrC, where you had to almost die.

Have any DMs allowed allow feats that make more sense to be substituted for PRC requirements here?
ZeronHitaro
08-17-07, 01:17 PM But considering you are immune to Dragon Fear starting at first level...but I do agree that RP or strange requirements are better requirements. Rite of intiation are also very flavorful. I liked the one for the Nerull worshipping Monk PrC, where you had to almost die.

Have any DMs allowed allow feats that make more sense to be substituted for PRC requirements here?

However until that time you are not immune. Iron Will is something you take before you are immune to fear. And if you're taking that particular PrC odds are you've been fighting against or at least training for dragon fighting before hand, including mental preparation. But this is getting into semantics.
Ogreman
08-17-07, 02:25 PM Yeah, I changed prereqs on some PrCs, including Invisible Blade (it's now Weapon Focus, TWF and Combat Expertise).
imakuni67
08-17-07, 02:50 PM However until that time you are not immune. Iron Will is something you take before you are immune to fear. And if you're taking that particular PrC odds are you've been fighting against or at least training for dragon fighting before hand, including mental preparation. But this is getting into semantics.

If they have training against dragons, then why not make it Dragon Defense (from the same book even) instead of plain Iron Will. :confused: Weird stuff...
The_Shaman
08-18-07, 08:56 AM The way I see it, Iron will is a prerequisite of sorts for the immunity to fear. Dodge shows extra training in avoiding blows, rather than withstanding them - a good idea when you are fighting something like a dragon :) .

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
imakuni67 08-16-07, 02:48 PM	I've been wondering why a lot of PRC's have useless non-flavorful requirements sometimes. I will give you my example: The Dragonslayer from Draconomicon. I can see Dodge and 2 ranks of Tumble being very good flavorful requirements to adapt the class, but Iron Will? Why? My biggest puzzle comes from the fact that there is better choices in the same book than Iron Will. Dragon Defense or Dragonfoe! Come on! I could probably think of many other examples... Skills are good requirements for flavor reasons and to make think forwards towards taking the class. Tumble is a cross-class for most base classes but it makes sense. Spending 4 ranks to get into Dragonslaying seems well worth it. Feats need to be better chosen though across the board when it comes to PRC requirements. Anyone agree?
JellyPooga 08-16-07, 03:02 PM	Heh, there are many PrC's with dumb requirements, take the Invisible Blade for example: PBS and Far Shot for a Melee oriented PrC?
ZeronHitaro 08-16-07, 03:03 PM	Frightful Presence (Ex) A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 30 feet × the dragon’s age category are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons. Iron Will is perfectly fine. Lot of good all those Dragon slaying feats do you if you're running away screaming like a little 30 year old elven girl.
Puca 08-16-07, 03:17 PM	I dont think having lame prereqs is a bad thing. It can be a balance issue. IMHO, if a PrC has only prereqs you were going to take anyway, and then gives a host of cool abilities without asking you to give anything up, its a bad PrC. I believe that when you see a prereq that is a feat you would never, ever take normally, it is a safe bet that it was intended to be a "cost" of entry.
The_Shaman 08-16-07, 07:50 PM	Dragonslayer does not, unfortunately, even crack the top 10 for weird prerequisites. Mental fortitude is, indeed, useful for fighting dragons. Now, dodge on Dwarven defender? Come on, those guys are about as mobile as the mountain. As for the "weird prerequisites - balance" idea, it has always seemed wrong to me. If the prerequisite does not make sense, then it shouldn't be there, powerful or no. You can always include a RP prerequisite if you are worried that people left and right would get it.
imakuni67 08-17-07, 11:28 AM	But considering you are immune to Dragon Fear starting at first level...but I do agree that RP or strange requirements are better requirements. Rite of intiation are also very flavorful. I liked the one for the Nerull worshipping Monk PrC, where you had to almost die. Have any DMs allowed allow feats that make more sense to be substituted for PRC requirements here?
ZeronHitaro 08-17-07, 01:17 PM	But considering you are immune to Dragon Fear starting at first level...but I do agree that RP or strange requirements are better requirements. Rite of intiation are also very flavorful. I liked the one for the Nerull worshipping Monk PrC, where you had to almost die. Have any DMs allowed allow feats that make more sense to be substituted for PRC requirements here? However until that time you are not immune. Iron Will is something you take before you are immune to fear. And if you're taking that particular PrC odds are you've been fighting against or at least training for dragon fighting before hand, including mental preparation. But this is getting into semantics.
Ogreman 08-17-07, 02:25 PM	Yeah, I changed prereqs on some PrCs, including Invisible Blade (it's now Weapon Focus, TWF and Combat Expertise).
imakuni67 08-17-07, 02:50 PM	However until that time you are not immune. Iron Will is something you take before you are immune to fear. And if you're taking that particular PrC odds are you've been fighting against or at least training for dragon fighting before hand, including mental preparation. But this is getting into semantics. If they have training against dragons, then why not make it Dragon Defense (from the same book even) instead of plain Iron Will. :confused: Weird stuff...
The_Shaman 08-18-07, 08:56 AM	The way I see it, Iron will is a prerequisite of sorts for the immunity to fear. Dodge shows extra training in avoiding blows, rather than withstanding them - a good idea when you are fighting something like a dragon :) .