Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tema69 07-09-07, 04:37 PM	Allright. This class needs a capstone ability other than autofire. Any ideas? Anyone? And if ChaoticGood is still out there, I'd love it if you had a (second) try at the capstone. Here's a drawing I made of my girlfriend's character, a Bugbear sergeant in the Palthan Special Forces. A normal grenadier would have a shortsword and a musket instead of the pistol and the rapier. Enjoy: http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc38/Tema69/2007-12-04-1230-25_edited.jpg And yes, the character is female, but rather masculin. (Palthas is a major city-state in my campaign, feel free to use, change and adapt any material found here) PALTHAN GRENADIER “Yeah, I know it’s all muddy and filled with decaying people, but it’s home.” Tom Wallander, Grenadier in the 1st Palthan Grenadier Infantry Battalion, describing his trenches. Modern warfare is quickly evolving, new technology is being developped, and old equipment becomes archaic and near-useless. With the arrival of the firearms and various powder-powered explosive devices, the need for experts in the field arrises, and the Grenadier class is born. The city-state Palthas was the first to use these troops as standard infantry and they now make up around half of the Palthan infantry, along with Palthan Knights, Leafs, Shields and Pikemen. Prerequisites: Bab: +4 Skills: Survival 4 ranks, Climb 7 ranks, Jump 7 ranks, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 5 ranks, Profession (soldier) 3 ranks. Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Musket), Armor Proficiency (Light), Point Blank Shot, Grenadier. Hit Die: d8 Class Skills: The Grenadier's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (weaponsmithing) (Int), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) and (history) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Survival (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str). Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Poor Level, Abilities: 1. Veteran Grenadier, Weapon Focus (Musket), Rifle Training +1 2. Ready Shot, Trench Digger 3. Armored Infantry, Bayonet 4. Plunging Shot, Rifle Training +1d6 5. Acrobatic Charge, Trench Jumper, Fast Crawl 6. Musket Sniper, Close Quarter Fighting 7. Trench Veteran, Rifle Training +2 8. Increased Splash, Bayonet Charge 9. Rapid Reload (Musket), Rifle Training +2d6 10. Brutal Strike, [Automatic Fire], Combat Crawl Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Grenadier gains no proficiency with armor (but with the breastplate later on) but gains proficiency with martial weapons. Veteran Grenadier: You are skilled in using grenadelike weapons. You are an expert with bombs, splash weapons and incendiary mixtures. You gain a +1 bonus on the weapons attack and damage roll (including splash damage). This stacks with the Grenadier feat. Weapon Focus (Musket): You gain this feat as a bonus feat. If you allready have this feat, you gain Weapon Specialization(Musket) even if you do not meet the prerequesites. Ready Shot: You can ready an action to fire a ranged weapon at a foe who charges you. You must wait until the target is within 30 feet before you attack. If you score a hit with this readied attack, your attack deals an extra 3d6 points of damage. Creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are immune to this effect. Trench Digger: You create earthworks, fortifications (foxholes, berms, trenches, etc.) and the like twice as fast as normal. See Heroes of Battle for rules concerning earthworks. Acrobatic Charge: You gain the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. You may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, you may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain. Fast Crawl: Your crawling speed improves to 10 feet (instead of 5 feet). Armored Infantry: You gain proficiency with the breastplate, and the armor check penalty decreases by one when wearing one. Plunging Shot: You can use the force of gravity as well as a better view of your targets to make your ranged attacks deal extra damage if your target is below you. If your target is at least 20 feet lower than you, you deal an extra 1d6 damage with a thrown or projectile weapon. Bayonet: If you have a shortsword and a musket of at least masterwork quality, you can, with a DC 13 Craft (weaponsmithing), make an attachment for the sword on the rifle. It can be removed or attached as a move action or as part of another move action from this point on. Once attached, the weapon functions as a spear, dealing 1d8 piercing damage and a critical threat of 20/x3. Any enhancement bonus the shortsword has applies to the bayonet. It can be set against a charge. Close Quarter Fighting: You excel at using your musket in melee. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from your target when firing your musket, even if you are in that opponents threatened area. You still incur attacks of opportunity from other foes. You may use your musket in melee as a standard club. Trench Jumper: You are used to climb and jump over trenches, you gain a competence bonus to Climb and Jump checks equal to half your class level. Increased Splash: You know how to use a splash weapon with maximum efficiency. Every time you use a weapon for which the Grenadier ability applies, the splash range is increased by 5 feet. Rapid Reload (Musket): You gain this feat as a bonus feat. If you allready have this feat, you may choose any other feat for which you meet the prerequesites. Trench Veteran: Living in the filfth and mud of the trenches have made you near immune to sickness and disease. Also, working closely with other military branches gives you a small understanding of their job. You gain a +8 to any saves against nonmagical disease and +2 on Profession (siege engineer). Musket Sniper: You add half your Dexterity bonus on any ranged attack made with a musket. If you have the skirmish, sudden strike, or sneak attack ability, the maximum range at which you can make such attacks doubles when using a musket. Bayonet Charge: If you charge an opponent with a loaded musket with an attached bayonet, you deal double damage with the bayonet and get a free musket hit. Brutal Strike: You can batter your foe senseless with your musket, when used as a club. You must declare your intention to use brutal strike before making the attack. If you hit, and your opponent takes damage, he/she must make a Fortitude save DC 10 + half the damage dealt or be sickened for 1 round. If you have power attack and use it in conjunction with this ability, the DC is 10 + the damage dealt. You can use this ability once per round during your attack action. A creature not subject to critical hits is also immune to this ability. Automatic Fire: With a DC 15 Craft (Weaponsmithing) you can alter your masterwork musket’s ammunition feed so that it can be fitted a magazine. It still can still function as a normal musket of it’s kind, but, with a DC 13 Craft (Weaponsmithing) create magazines that can contain up to 10 rounds. This allows you to fire ten times before needing to reload again, which takes a full round action (decreased to a move action by the Rapid Reload feat). Any feat that allows you to fire multiple times also applies to an automatic musket, such as Rapid Shot, but not Manyshot (as it only applies to arrows). Rifle Training: When first equipped with the muskets, the grenadiers trained intensely with the firearms for months. As a result of this, their training applies only to living creatures with discernable anatomies, because of the training targets they were given. Whenever you fire a firearm, you gain the indicated bonus to attack and damage rolls. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to Rifle Training. Combat Crawl: Your prone speed increases to 15 feet, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when crawling. Any comments are very welcome, I've not created prestige classes before, so please help me out here. :) Thanks to Wall and The Wasp for comments, critics and ideas.
Tema69 07-09-07, 04:44 PM	I was thinking about adding an ability like: Pack Mule: You know how to optimize space in your backpack and reduce the encumbrance your equipment imposes. You decrease the weight of anything you carry in your backpack by 20%. This ability takes 1 minute for each 5 lb you carry in your backpack. but I don't know where to put it in, because I think I have too many levels already, but I might have too few levels for the quantity of abilities. What do you think? PEACH PEACH PEACH
Wall 07-09-07, 08:39 PM	GRENADIER “Yeah, I know it’s muddy and filled with decaying people, but it’s home” Tom Wallander, Grenadier in the 1st Grenadier Infantry Battalion, describing his trenches Cute. :) Prerequisites: Bab: +4 [QUOTE]Skills: Survival 4 ranks, Climb 7 ranks, Jump 7 ranks, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 5 ranks, Profession (soldier) 7 ranks Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Musket), Armor Proficiency (Light), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot You can take the first level of this class at 5th; most PRCs try to keep it at 6th or above, but exceptions do exist. I don't think Profession (Soldier) should be a prereq, though. Just strikes me as a little odd. Kinda restricts the character flavoring, too. Hit Die: d8 Class Skills: The Grenadier's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (weaponsmithing) (Int), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) and (history) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (soldier) and (siege engineer) (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str). Skills/Level: 2 + Intelligence Bonus BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Poor; Will: Poor That is a lot of skills for only 2 + Int; I suggest upping to 4 + int. Additionally, Survival is a prereq but not on the list. I think you should make Profession generic instead of only those two as well. A bit more opportunity to customize. BAB and saves look good, although you may want to give a good Reflex; you'd need it on the battlefield. Level, Abilities: 1. Grenadier, Weapon Focus (Musket), Rifle Training +1d6 2. Ready Shot, Trench Digger 3. Armored Infantry, Rifle Training +2d6 4. Plunging Shot, Bayonet 5. Acrobatic Charge, Rifle Training +1 attack roll 6. Musket Sniper, Trench Veteran 7. Close Quarter Fighting, Trench Jumper 8. Rifle Training +3d6, Increased Splash 9. Rapid Reload (Musket) 10. Bayonet Charge 11. Brutal Strike, Rifle Training +2 attack roll Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Grenadier gains no proficiency with armor (but with the breastplate later on) but becomes proficient with the shortsword. Short sword seems a little random, but OK. Grenadier: You are skilled in using grenadelike weapons. You are an expert with bombs, splash weapons and incendiary mixtures. You gain a +1 bonus on the weapons attack and damage roll (including splash damage). Looks good. Weapon Focus (Musket): You gain this feat as a bonus feat. If you allready have this feat, you gain Greater Weapon Focus (Musket) even if you do not meet the prerequesites.[QUOTE] I'd give Weapon Specialization instead. Don't wanna take more away from the fighter. [QUOTE] Ready Shot: You can ready an action to fire a ranged weapon at a foe who charges you. You must wait until the target is within 30 feet before you attack. If you score a hit with this readied attack, your attack deals an extra 3d6 points of damage. Creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are immune to this effect. Looks Good. Trench Digger: You create earthworks, fortifications (foxholes, berms, trenches, etc.) and the like twice as fast as normal. And how long do they normally take? Are skill checks involved? Acrobatic Charge: You gain the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. You may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, you may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain. Also good. Armored Infantry: You gain proficiency with the breastplate, and the armor check penalty decreases by one when wearing one. This kinda bugs me. I think perhaps you should decrease the ACP by 2 or so in Light Armor instead of lowering the penalty in breastplate. Gives them a reason to keep wearing it. At a later level you could also lower the penalty in medium armor. Plunging Shot: You can use the force of gravity as well as a better view of your targets to make your ranged attacks deal extra damage if your target is below you. If your target is at least 20 feet lower than you, you deal an extra 1d6 damage with a thrown or projectile weapon. Okay. Bayonet: If you have a shortsword and a musket of at least masterwork quality, you can, with a DC 13 Craft (weaponsmithing), make an attachment for the sword on the rifle. It can be removed or attached as a move action or as part of another move action from this point on. Once attached, the weapon functions as a spear, dealing 1d8 piercing damage and a critical threat of 20/x3. Any enhancement bonus the shortsword has applies to the bayonet. It can be set against a charge. This also kinda bugs me. A Bayonet is a piece of equipment, so I don't think you should get it as a class feature. People can just buy them. Close Quarter Fighting: You excel at using your musket in melee. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from your target when firing your musket, even if you are in that opponents threatened area. You still incur attacks of opportunity from other foes. You may use your musket in melee as a standard club. I'd just make it so that you don't provoke AoOs in melee with your musket, period. Trench Jumper: You are used to climb and jump over trenches, and the DC of any Jump or Climb skills involving a trench are reduced by 5. Way too specific; no use outside of a war zone. How about they gain a bonus on Climb and Jump in general? You could also grant it earlier and scale it as the class levels up. I'd go with 1/2 class level, personally. Increased Splash: By tinkering a bit with the fuses and the explosives with any weapon for which the grenadier ability applies, the splash range is increased by 5 feet. It requires 1 minute per bomb. Hmm... Well, the ability is not uncalled for, but I think this should be more of a skill thing. "Grenadiers know how to throw a splash weapon to..." Takes away the minute-long tinkering time. Rapid Reload (Musket): You gain this feat as a bonus feat. If you allready have this feat, you may choose any other feat for which you meet the prerequesites. Looks good. Trench Veteran: Living in the filfth and mud of the trenches have made you near immune to sickness and disease. Also, working closely with other military branches gives you a small understanding of their job. You gain a +8 to any saves against nonmagical disease and +2 on Profession (siege engineer). All right. Musket Sniper: You add half your Dexterity bonus on any ranged attack made with a musket. If you have the skirmish, sudden strike, or sneak attack ability, the maximum range at which you can make such attacks doubles when using a musket. Half Dex, rounded up or rounded down? Bayonet Charge: If you charge an opponent with a loaded musket with an attached bayonet, you deal double damage with the bayonet and may fire the musket as a free action with a +4 attack roll bonus. The target of such an attack cannot use his Dexterity or any dodge bonuses to his armor class against the musket attack. Hmm... Makes sense, but how about it allows an automatic rifle hit on a successful bayonet charge? Takes away the messy mechanics. Brutal Strike: You can batter your foe senseless with your musket, when used as a club. You must declare your intention to use brutal strike before making the attack. If you hit, and your opponent takes damage, he/she must make a Fortitude save DC 10 + half the damage dealt or be sickened for 1 round. If you have power attack and use it in conjunction with this ability, the DC is 10 + the damage dealt. You can use this ability once per round during your attack action. A creature not subject to critical hits is also immune to this ability. Doesn't really seem to have to do with anything else in the class, but it is useful. Rifle Training: When first equipped with the muskets, the grenadiers trained intensely with the firearms for months. As a result of this, their training applies only to living creatures with discernable anatomies, because of the training targets they were given. Whenever you fire a firearm, you gain the indicated bonus to attack and damage rolls. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to Rifle Training. This one makes sense, but the chart is a little whack. My suggestion is: 1st level: +1/+0 4th level: +1/+1d6 7th level: +2/+1d6 10th level: +2/+2d6 I'll put a few more comments in the next post.
Wall 07-09-07, 08:44 PM	It's a good idea, but the class is kinda muddled and confusing. My suggestion is to give two different paths the character can take; kinda like the Ranger styles. One for splash weapons, and the other for Muskets. You'd be able to apply many of the abilities to either weapon so I think it's work. The other thing, is that the class doesn't seem to build up to anything. The capstone ability doesn't really fit the rest of the class, and isn't particularly impressive either. It would be good for around 6th or 7th level instead, I think. I hope that helps. It's a good idea, and a good job so far... there could just be a few improvements.
Tema69 07-09-07, 09:05 PM	Thanks a lot. What do you suggest the class should be building up to? I've thought about it too, but I didn't quite get any good ideas. Shortsword is very random indeed, but I was thinking of it as more like a sabre-thing as well as a bayonet. I've changed to Wp Spec. There aren't really any time indications in ToB about time and fortifications apart from a 5 feet wide berm takes one hour to dig. So I guess it's aprox. the same for a trench or a foxhole. But I plan on making house rules about that. I'm not changing the breastplate though.. :) I just love the idea. A bayonet is not just a piece of equipment. Not in my game anyway. It functions as a dagger at best. So here it's more like an improved bayonet or something. Stronger mounts and the like. I might change the AoO thing and make it your way. I changed the Climb/Jump. I don't get what you're saying about the tinkering bit of the increased splash. And, you always round down when in doubt or not stated otherwise, so Musket Sniper as well. I changed to automatic rifle hit with the charge. I changed to your Rifle Training chart. It's better, your right. I know Brutal Strike doesn't have anything to do with the class, but I like it. I might make it a two-path class like the ranger.. Thanks a lot for the help so far!
Tema69 07-09-07, 09:06 PM	The Level tree now looks like this: 1. Grenadier, Weapon Focus (Musket), Rifle Training +1 2. Ready Shot, Trench Digger 3. Armored Infantry, Bayonet 4. Plunging Shot, Rifle Training +1d6 5. Acrobatic Charge, Trench Jumper 6. Musket Sniper, Close Quarter Fighting 7. Trench Veteran, Rifle Training +2 8. Increased Splash, Bayonet Charge 9. Rapid Reload (Musket) Rifle Training +2d6 10. Brutal Strike, [I need something here!! ] What about some tinkering with the musket so that it has ammo capacity? like a semi-automatic rifle? That way the character could take advantage of his high BAB..?
The Wasp 07-10-07, 04:31 AM	How about an ability that allows him to move faster while prone. Would be appropriate for a firefight.
Tema69 07-10-07, 06:19 AM	Nice one Wasp, thanks, I'll keep it in mind :)
Tema69 07-10-07, 01:43 PM	How about an ability that allows him to move faster while prone. Would be appropriate for a firefight. How fast can you move while prone? I can't find it in the SRD. Is it in the PHB? I've looked under Combat movement..
Tuhljin 07-10-07, 07:38 PM	You'd think this class would require the feat Grenadier from Player's Handbook II. Do you have access to that book? It's essentially identical to your "Grenadier" class feature at 1st level. If that was your intent, you might consider changing that class feature to either say you gain Grenadier as a bonus feat or say that it stacks with the bonuses of the Grenadier feat. Personally, my initial reaction would be to remove that feature from 1st level and make it a prerequisite of the PrC instead and perhaps add a later class feature like "Veteran Grenadier" or something that improves the effect of said feat, but the PrC already requires quite a few feats so maybe just giving Grenadier as a bonus feat at 1st level isn't too bad.
Tema69 07-10-07, 08:40 PM	Yeah, I have PHBII right here, I copied the Grenadier class feature from that book. The class is more of a musket oriented ranged weapon specialist PrC, and the Grenadier side of it is more as a flavor part. To spice things up. But thanks though.. :)
Tema69 11-04-07, 07:26 AM	@Tuhljin: I've changed the Grenadier thing. I think it's better your way.
Fend 11-06-07, 01:18 PM	Personally - I liked the class in the first write up :D I love this gritty feel. but it Really does sound to me like it was made and intended as an NPC class where there is a "mass flavoring" of the armys soldiers, and anyone in the party is likely to have a background in it (just as Paladins are steriotyped, and rouges may be steriotyped) Bayonette x3 seems abit much. but i guess you did turn it into a spear i suppose. It seems like a class that youd expect alot of lower level soldiers to be.. perhaps you should Try makeing a Base class - Grenadier. As a low level prestige class as the others say is fairly low. Otherwise the critisism you have received is good for it :) But otherwise i dont think its muddled and anymore ability (like the packmule) would prolly make it alittle too elaborate. Musket proficiency, armor proficiency, focus on battlefield training and building and use of explosives. Seems all around great in my eyes. Kudos!
Tema69 11-07-07, 05:57 AM	Well, most Trenchers (basic infantry - warriors) aspire to become Grenadiers (this PrC) or Long Gunners (high level warriors with scoped rifles). Some of them are assigned to chainguns and are referred to as Chaingunners. So, I though it should be a PrC since it's a status to be obtained. And a player of mine, a Gnome Ninja/Assassin has taken levels in it, and is doing fine. He is the ranged specialist of the group, carrying a force bow, a musket, and an automatic crossbow (that he built himself). Well, thanks, and yes, I took the x3 from the spear, since that's basically what it is. And it's supposed to represent a great bayonet, not a standard one. That would be like 1d4; 20/x2. So thank you to everyone that has helped me out here, it has become a success in my setting.
ArkhamInmate 11-08-07, 06:42 PM	Shortsword is very random indeed, but I was thinking of it as more like a sabre-thing as well as a bayonet. I like this class and people are right, the short sword is a little odd, and since you said the bayonet is something that alreadt exists in your campaign, why not change the short sword to either a Rapier(fits the musketeer motif) or a scimitar(just call it a sabre) if you want more of a cavalry type feel, hell if you do add the two paths instead of explosives and guns pathes try tinkering with a mounted(fast attack style skirmishing) and unmounted(more along the lines of maybe defensive trench style warfare) combat abilities
Tema69 11-09-07, 06:21 AM	I'd like to keep it as a single path class. This class has nothing to do with mounted cavalry. It's the class representing the basic infantry PrC in my setting. Additionally, it is not a musketeer (as you might think of it - rapier fencing french guy), but a Grenadier (using explosives). I'll remove the short sword if it makes you all uncomfortable...
ArkhamInmate 11-09-07, 05:50 PM	I'd like to keep it as a single path class. This class has nothing to do with mounted cavalry. It's the class representing the basic infantry PrC in my setting. Additionally, it is not a musketeer (as you might think of it - rapier fencing french guy), but a Grenadier (using explosives). I'll remove the short sword if it makes you all uncomfortable... oh i'm sorry i misunderstood where you were heading with this class, as a member of the military i'd say a Long sword would be a bit better, but then again it's your campaign world and whatever is the default weapon of this kingdom's military would probably work fine(i'm assuming short sword)
Tema69 11-10-07, 08:31 AM	Well, since the majority of the Palthan army are ranged specialists, only using swords when separated from their muskets. There are a some elite close combat specialist troops, resembling dismounted knights, and the same, only mounted, form up the cavalry. And thats basically the main army. To that, add several elite branches.
ChaoticGood 11-12-07, 09:11 AM	I'm about to make a lot of criticisms, so before I do, let me just say that I really do like what you're trying to do here. You've assembled a lot of good ideas into one very awesome concept, and you've got me thinking about using trench warfare in my Eberron campaign when and if I ever spark a Next War. Something you need to consider when designing a PrC is what base class you expect to see entering the PrC most frequently. For this one, I most often expect to see warrior-types such as Fighters and Rangers. However, as it stands, the prerequisites would eat up almost the entirety of a minimum-level warrior-type's skill points, leaving little to no room for customization. On the other hand, this is a powerful PrC that definitely requires high prerequisites. Furthermore, many of the class features are already existing feats, so I would suggest that you pull the ones that are already feats and offer a bonus feat chosen from that list at the appropriate levels. This allows a character to be a bit more customized. Finally, some of the higher-level abilities don't make much sense. The three I have the biggest problem with are: Bayonet Charge - This allows the character to score a musket shot with a successful bayonet hit. This is not how a bayonet works. The bayonet is fixed inside the barrel of the musket; you cannot fire the musket while a bayonet is attached. Brutal Strike - I understand where you're going with this, but it seems to come out of nowhere. The class is geared towards skilled fighting rather than brute strength, and I think this defeats the purpose of the PrC. Automatic Musket - The term "musket" is fairly narrow; an automatic weapon of any kind simply isn't a musket, and treating it as such goes into the realm of ridiculous. Turning a short sword into a bayonet is one thing, but this is akin to turning a short sword into a halberd while still allowing a rogue to sneak attack with it and use Weapon Focus (short sword) and Weapon Finesse while doing so. To a lesser extent, I dislike the Dexterity bonus granted by Musket Sniper, because Dexterity is already applied to ranged attacks. Rifle Training (which should be called Musket Training, since a Rifle is an altogether different type of firearm) needs to be limited in range, but could perhaps be added to the list of class features whose range Musket Sniper doubles. So, with my criticisms made, this is how I would change the class, including two new 10th-level class features. Admittedly, even my version of this PrC is extremely powerful compared to most PrC, but I think the high prerequisites make it balanced. Prerequisites: BAB: +5 Skills: Craft (weaponsmithing) 4, Climb 8 ranks, Jump 8 ranks, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 4 ranks, Survival 4 ranks. Feats: Armor Proficiency (Light), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Musket), Grenadier, Weapon Focus (musket). [Upped the BAB to bring it line with other warrior-type PrC minimums, made the skill requirements a little more Fighter/Ranger-friendly, and swapped out Point Blank Shot for Weapon Focus (musket).] Hit Die: d8 Class Skills: The Grenadier's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) and (history) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Survival (Wis), Spot (Wis). Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Poor Level, Abilities: 1. Veteran Grenadier, Musket Training +1 2. Trench Jumper, Trench Digger, Bonus Feat 3. Armored Infantry 1, Fast Crawl, Improvised Bayonet 4. Bonus Feat, Musket Training +1/+1d6 5. Ready Shot, Trench Fighting 6. Trench Veteran, Bonus Feat 7. Armored Infantry 2, Musket Training +2/+1d6 8. Blast Radius, Musket Sniper, Bonus Feat 9. Combat Crawl, Musket Training +2/+2d6 10. Hail of Lead, Cover Fire Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Grenadier gains proficiency with breastplate and with all martial weapons. Veteran Grenadier: You are skilled in using grenadelike weapons. You are an expert with bombs, splash weapons and incendiary mixtures. When using grenade-like weapons, you gain a +1 to attack and damage rolls. This bonus stacks with the Grenadier feat. Musket Training: When first equipped with the muskets, the grenadiers trained intensely with the firearms for months, granting them bonuses to hit and additional damage dice. This bonuses only apply to living creatures with discernable anatomies, and such targets must be within 30 feet. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to Rifle Training. Trench Jumper: You are used to climbing and jumping over trenches, you gain a competence bonus to Climb and Jump checks equal to half your class level. Additionally, you may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, you may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain. [Folded Acrobatic Charge into this ability. "Acrobatic Charge" just doesn't have that "grizzled trench warrior" flavor, you know?] Trench Digger: You create earthworks, fortifications (foxholes, berms, trenches, etc.) and the like twice as fast as normal. See Heroes of Battle for rules concerning earthworks. Bonus Feat: You gain a bonus feat from the following list: Great Fortitude, Plunging Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Weapon Focus (Bayonet only), Weapon Specialization (Bayonet or Musket only). [Feel free to add other appropriate feats to this list.] Armored Infantry: At 3rd level, your armor check penalty when wearing a breastplate is reduced by 1. At 7th level, it is reduced by an additional 1. Fast Crawl: Your crawling speed improves to 10 feet (instead of 5 feet). Improvised Bayonet: You can make a DC 13 Craft (weaponsmithing) as a full-round action to turn a shortsword or dagger of at least masterwork quality into a bayonet. The bayonet can be removed or attached to your musket as a move action or as part of another move action. Once attached, the weapon functions as a spear, dealing 1d6 piercing damage and a critical threat of 20/x3. Any weapon enhancements the shortsword has are applied to the new bayonet. It can be set against a charge. On an attack roll of natural 1, this improvised bayonet is broken off and destroyed. [Renamed and adjusted because the bayonet is an existing weapon. I may be wrong about this, but I think the bayonet does 1d6 damage. I made it destructible so as to give a reason for this to be a reusable class feature rather than just a new use of the Craft (weaponsmithing) skill.] Ready Shot: Whenever you ready an action to fire a ranged weapon at a foe who charges you, a successful hit with this readied attack deals an extra 3d6 points of damage. Your target must be within 30 feet of you when you attack. Creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are immune to this effect. Trench Fighting: You excel at using your musket while threatened and in melee. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from your target when firing your musket, even if you are in that opponents threatened area. You still incur attacks of opportunity from other foes. You may use your musketas a club in melee, dealing 1d6 damage. Weapon enhancements do not affect the club, but the masterwork quality does. For example, a +1 acidic burst musket of distance would function as a masterwork club when used in this way. [Renamed because Close Quarters Fighting is an existing feat.] Trench Veteran: Living in the filth and mud of the trenches have given you extraordinary intestinal fortitude. You are immune to nonmagical diseases and gain a +2 bonus on saves against poison. [The +2 to Profession (siege engineer) is interesting, but too little to be useful at this point.] Blast Radius: You know how to use a splash weapon with maximum efficiency. Whenever you use a weapon for which the Grenadier ability applies, the splash range is increased by 5 feet. [Renamed for flavor.] Musket Sniper: The range of your Musket Training and Ready Shot abilities double to 60 feet. If you have the skirmish, sudden strike, or sneak attack ability, the maximum range at which you can make such attacks doubles when using a musket. Combat Crawl: Your prone speed increases to 15 feet, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when crawling. Hail of Lead: You have mastered the art of loading your weapon with unearthly quickness, allowing you to fire your musket once for each attack that your BAB allows you. You may use this ability once per encounter, and you must announce that you are making a Hail of Lead attack at the beginning of your action. During the round in which you make use of this ability, you may also make use of any feats, spells or class features that grant extra attacks, such as the Rapid Shot feat or a haste spell (but not Manyshot, which only applies to arrows.) After making this attack, you must allow your weapon to cool down for 1d4 rounds before firing it again. Cover Fire: Thanks to your skill and quickness, you can provide cover fire for your allies. Whenever you use your Ready Shot ability, enemies within 60 feet have a 20% miss chance against your allies until you make your readied attack or the beginning of your next turn, whichever comes first.
Tema69 11-13-07, 07:00 AM	So, with my criticisms made, this is how I would change the class, including two new 10th-level class features. Admittedly, even my version of this PrC is extremely powerful compared to most PrC, but I think the high prerequisites make it balanced. "The Grenadier" Prerequisites: BAB: +5 Skills: Craft (weaponsmithing) 4, Climb 8 ranks, Jump 8 ranks, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 4 ranks, Survival 4 ranks. Feats: Armor Proficiency (Light), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Musket), Grenadier, Weapon Focus (musket). - Good idea. Hit Die: d8 Class Skills: The Grenadier's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) and (history) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Survival (Wis), Spot (Wis). Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Poor Level, Abilities: 1. Veteran Grenadier, Musket Training +1 2. Trench Jumper, Trench Digger, Bonus Feat 3. Armored Infantry 1, Fast Crawl, Improvised Bayonet 4. Bonus Feat, Musket Training +1/+1d6 5. Ready Shot, Trench Fighting 6. Trench Veteran, Bonus Feat 7. Armored Infantry 2, Musket Training +2/+1d6 8. Blast Radius, Musket Sniper, Bonus Feat 9. Combat Crawl, Musket Training +2/+2d6 10. Hail of Lead, Cover Fire Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Grenadier gains proficiency with breastplate and with all martial weapons. Veteran Grenadier: You are skilled in using grenadelike weapons. You are an expert with bombs, splash weapons and incendiary mixtures. When using grenade-like weapons, you gain a +1 to attack and damage rolls. This bonus stacks with the Grenadier feat. Musket Training: When first equipped with the muskets, the grenadiers trained intensely with the firearms for months, granting them bonuses to hit and additional damage dice. This bonuses only apply to living creatures with discernable anatomies, and such targets must be within 30 feet. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to Rifle Training. I've always wondered how to make a long range marksman in D&D terms. Reducing the range to 30 feet is pretty much killing the class. One could say within the first two range increments. But 30 ft.? Trench Jumper: You are used to climbing and jumping over trenches, you gain a competence bonus to Climb and Jump checks equal to half your class level. Additionally, you may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, you may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain. [Folded Acrobatic Charge into this ability. "Acrobatic Charge" just doesn't have that "grizzled trench warrior" flavor, you know?] This is good, thanks. Trench Digger: You create earthworks, fortifications (foxholes, berms, trenches, etc.) and the like twice as fast as normal. See Heroes of Battle for rules concerning earthworks. Bonus Feat: You gain a bonus feat from the following list: Great Fortitude, Plunging Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Weapon Focus (Bayonet only), Weapon Specialization (Bayonet or Musket only). [Feel free to add other appropriate feats to this list.] Bonus feats are a good idea, and restriciting the list is also good. Armored Infantry: At 3rd level, your armor check penalty when wearing a breastplate is reduced by 1. At 7th level, it is reduced by an additional 1. Fast Crawl: Your crawling speed improves to 10 feet (instead of 5 feet). Improvised Bayonet: You can make a DC 13 Craft (weaponsmithing) as a full-round action to turn a shortsword or dagger of at least masterwork quality into a bayonet. The bayonet can be removed or attached to your musket as a move action or as part of another move action. Once attached, the weapon functions as a spear, dealing 1d6 piercing damage and a critical threat of 20/x3. Any weapon enhancements the shortsword has are applied to the new bayonet. It can be set against a charge. On an attack roll of natural 1, this improvised bayonet is broken off and destroyed. [Renamed and adjusted because the bayonet is an existing weapon. I may be wrong about this, but I think the bayonet does 1d6 damage. I made it destructible so as to give a reason for this to be a reusable class feature rather than just a new use of the Craft (weaponsmithing) skill.] Hmm.. If you look at wikipedia's definition of bayonet, it states: "A bayonet (from French baïonnette) is a knife- or dagger-shaped weapon designed to fit [U]on or over the muzzle of a rifle barrel or similar weapon. It is a close-combat or last-resort weapon." The very first bayonets were slided into the barrels, agreed, but if you read on, you encounter this: "The 19th century finally saw the popularity of the sword bayonet. It was a long-bladed weapon with a single- or double-edged blade that could also be used as a shortsword. Its initial purpose was to ensure that riflemen, when in ranks with musketmen, whose weapons were longer, could form square properly to fend off cavalry attacks, when sword bayonets were fitted." Since the description of the ability is "strap your shortsword to your gun", it is probalby treated as a "sword bayonet", wouldn't you say? And if you continue, it reads: "When attached to the musket or rifle, it effectively turned almost any long gun into a spear or glaive, suitable not only for thrusting but also for slashing." Therefore my 1d8 spear damage. However, I like the fact that you made it a temporary attachments, so it can be used multiple times. The natural 1 rule is good too. Ready Shot: Whenever you ready an action to fire a ranged weapon at a foe who charges you, a successful hit with this readied attack deals an extra 3d6 points of damage. Your target must be within 30 feet of you when you attack. Creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are immune to this effect. This ability is to be used a close quarters, but if you look at your version of the Rifle Training, it would apply to this, because of the low range. There wouldn't really be need for this, since you'd deal extra damage anyway, so waiting 'till they get close to use Ready Shot would be silly. Trench Fighting: You excel at using your musket while threatened and in melee. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from your target when firing your musket, even if you are in that opponents threatened area. You still incur attacks of opportunity from other foes. You may use your musket as a club in melee, dealing 1d6 damage. Weapon enhancements do not affect the club, but the masterwork quality does. For example, a +1 acidic burst musket of distance would function as a masterwork club when used in this way. [Renamed because Close Quarters Fighting is an existing feat.] Cool, thanks. Trench Veteran: Living in the filth and mud of the trenches have given you extraordinary intestinal fortitude. You are immune to nonmagical diseases and gain a +2 bonus on saves against poison. [The +2 to Profession (siege engineer) is interesting, but too little to be useful at this point.] Blast Radius: You know how to use a splash weapon with maximum efficiency. Whenever you use a weapon for which the Grenadier ability applies, the splash range is increased by 5 feet. [Renamed for flavor.] Musket Sniper: The range of your Musket Training and Ready Shot abilities double to 60 feet. If you have the skirmish, sudden strike, or sneak attack ability, the maximum range at which you can make such attacks doubles when using a musket. Combat Crawl: Your prone speed increases to 15 feet, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when crawling. Hail of Lead: You have mastered the art of loading your weapon with unearthly quickness, allowing you to fire your musket once for each attack that your BAB allows you. You may use this ability once per encounter, and you must announce that you are making a Hail of Lead attack at the beginning of your action. During the round in which you make use of this ability, you may also make use of any feats, spells or class features that grant extra attacks, such as the Rapid Shot feat or a haste spell (but not Manyshot, which only applies to arrows.) After making this attack, you must allow your weapon to cool down for 1d4 rounds before firing it again. You seriously want the character to fire, remove the musket from his shoulder, load it, and level it again (which normally takes a full round) basically as a free action? :eek: This is why I prefered to make it semiautomatic. Cover Fire: Thanks to your skill and quickness, you can provide cover fire for your allies. Whenever you use your Ready Shot ability, enemies within 60 feet have a 20% miss chance against your allies until you make your readied attack or the beginning of your next turn, whichever comes first. A good idea, but are your sure about your description? Why should it be Ready Shot that provides covering fire? Ready shot is about carefully aiming and putting a precise shot into one opponent, not spraying an area. Do you mean Hail of Lead by any chance? Automatic Musket - The term "musket" is fairly narrow; an automatic weapon of any kind simply isn't a musket, and treating it as such goes into the realm of ridiculous. Turning a short sword into a bayonet is one thing, but this is akin to turning a short sword into a halberd while still allowing a rogue to sneak attack with it and use Weapon Focus (short sword) and Weapon Finesse while doing so. Okay, you might be right about the name thing, but calling it "semi-automatic-black-powder-weapon" seemed a bit weird. "Hail of Lead" would work fine as a name for it. I think you are exagerating slightly in your comparison between the difference of a semiautomatic smoothbore weapon and a singleshot smoothbore weapon (they are used in the same way, you just don't need to reload as often, it's easier to do so, and you can pull the trigger more times) and a shortsword turned into a halberd (adding an additional hand to use it, gives greater reach, etc.). Most ranged weapons that are built on the same basis aren't that different. A composite shortbow is very similar to a standard shortbow. In my setting (and in all the settings I know of, Weapon Focus (Shortbow) applies to mwk, composite, mighty, and magical shortbows, so that a ranger or rogue could pick the feat at low levels and still use it at high levels, that way, no feats are wasted. To a lesser extent, I dislike the Dexterity bonus granted by Musket Sniper, because Dexterity is already applied to ranged attacks. Rifle Training (which should be called Musket Training, since a Rifle is an altogether different type of firearm) needs to be limited in range, but could perhaps be added to the list of class features whose range Musket Sniper doubles. Thanks, I've made a mistake here. It should add half your dexterity modifier in damage, not to attack rolls. But I stronly disagree with the fact that Rifle Training should have your horrid range restriction. Within two range incr should work, and within 3 or 4 when gaining the Musket sniper ability. You are righ about the name of the Rifle Training ability, I didn't think that much about it. - Thanks, I appreciate your remake, but as you can see, I disagree on some points. I like your input and hope you'll stick around so we can work further on this. /T
ChaoticGood 11-19-07, 01:21 AM	I've always wondered how to make a long range marksman in D&D terms. Reducing the range to 30 feet is pretty much killing the class. One could say within the first two range increments. But 30 ft.? I went with 30 ft. because that's the standard range for excess damage from a ranged class ability (Sneak Attack, for example). Being that we're dealing with firearms here, I suppose you could up the range to 60 ft., but most D&D fights occur on pretty small battlefields, so if you go beyond that, you may as well not have a restriction on the range at all. You can still extend the range of your shots with Far Shot and a musket of distance, though. The alternative I see to this would be to specify a minimum distance for the class feature to kick in. Maybe the Training feature could only apply to targets beyond 30 feet. Hmm.. If you look at wikipedia's definition of bayonet, it states: [COLOR="Black"]"A bayonet (from French baïonnette) is a knife- or dagger-shaped weapon designed to fit on or over the muzzle of a rifle barrel or similar weapon. It is a close-combat or last-resort weapon." The very first bayonets were slided into the barrels, agreed, but if you read on, you encounter this: "The 19th century finally saw the popularity of the sword bayonet. It was a long-bladed weapon with a single- or double-edged blade that could also be used as a shortsword. Its initial purpose was to ensure that riflemen, when in ranks with musketmen, whose weapons were longer, could form square properly to fend off cavalry attacks, when sword bayonets were fitted." OK, I suppose it makes sense that one could make a bayonet to fit over the muzzle, allowing it to be fired with the bayonet fixed. However, this is a more complex attachment than one that fits inside the barrel. Furthermore, making such a bayonet isn't worthy of a class feature; it's task that anyone with the Craft (weapon) skill can accomplish. That's why I chose to rename the feature "Improvised Bayonet." Anyone with a little blacksmithing skill can make a bayonet in a workshop, but only the Grenadiers have the presence of mind and skill necessary to to accomplish this hasty modification in the heat of battle. I thought that fashioning a ring to fit snugly around the barrel was a little too complex for this kind of hasty modification, though, so my version is essentially about jamming your shortsword hilt inside the barrel without damaging the firearm. If you prefer your version, that's fine... As I said, this is just how I would remake the class. [B]This ability is to be used a close quarters, but if you look at your version of the Rifle Training, it would apply to this, because of the low range. There wouldn't really be need for this, since you'd deal extra damage anyway, so waiting 'till they get close to use Ready Shot would be silly. With Ready Shot, I assumed you were going for the "Wait until you see the whites of their eyes" scenario. That's why I gave it the close range restriction. But you're right about the overlap; it does seem like a bit of overkill. Perhaps this is a good argument for changing Training to a 30 ft. (or even 60 ft.) minimum range. You seriously want the character to fire, remove the musket from his shoulder, load it, and level it again (which normally takes a full round) basically as a free action? :eek: This is why I preferred to make it semiautomatic. And you want to them to modify a musket into a belt-fed machine gun. Both ideas are pretty far-out for even a late Renaissance fantasy game. :P But seriously, an automatic (or even semi-automatic) weapon is a technologically-advanced, but still mundane, piece of equipment, and could potentially be used by anyone at anytime, with or without levels in this PrC. My thought here is to provide a class feature that shows that a well-trained soldier is capable of amazing things in the heat of battle, above and beyond the capabilities of rational physics... things his body is only capable of doing in an adrenaline-fueled burst, when his life and that of his allies is on the line. For that reason, it can only be used once per encounter. (I was going to make it once per day, but I've heard that 4th Edition is going to lean towards a "per encounter" system, so I took advantage of that.) Now that I think about, though, I think I would skip the 1d4 round cool-down and instead cause the Grenadier to become exhausted instead, reflecting that his adrenaline burst is spent. Anyway, I get that you see this as a little "over-the-top," but I think it's "over-the-top" in a cinematic, "furious action" way, as opposed to an automatic musket, which feels more "over-the-top" in a "crazy but dangerous invention" way. A good idea, but are your sure about your description? Why should it be Ready Shot that provides covering fire? Ready shot is about carefully aiming and putting a precise shot into one opponent, not spraying an area. Do you mean Hail of Lead by any chance? I guess there are two ways to take the term "cover fire." I don't mean it in the sense of "spraying an area with lead," but rather in the sense of "threatening targets that threaten your allies." The miss chance comes from the opponent's wariness to fire on a target while you are providing cover for them with a readied action. I may need to reword this to better reflect that concept... perhaps it could allow you to use your Ready Shot as an Attack of Opportunity against an opponent who attacks one of your allies instead. I think you are exagerating slightly in your comparison between the difference of a semiautomatic smoothbore weapon and a singleshot smoothbore weapon (they are used in the same way, you just don't need to reload as often, it's easier to do so, and you can pull the trigger more times) and a shortsword turned into a halberd (adding an additional hand to use it, gives greater reach, etc.). Most ranged weapons that are built on the same basis aren't that different. A composite shortbow is very similar to a standard shortbow. In my setting (and in all the settings I know of, Weapon Focus (Shortbow) applies to mwk, composite, mighty, and magical shortbows, so that a ranger or rogue could pick the feat at low levels and still use it at high levels, that way, no feats are wasted. I was exaggerating a little, but I still think that a single-shot weapon and an automatic weapon are wildly different in terms of the skills needed to fire them. When you pull and fire a bow, the physiological mechanic is essentially the same no matter what kind of bow you use, i.e.: you hold the bow with one hand, pull back the string with the other, and let loose when your eye has aligned your arrow with the target. The only physiological change from a simple to a compound bow is the strength with which you must pull the string. Compare that to the difference between a single-shot weapon and a "simple" semi-automatic. Unless you're looking at modern weaponry, dealing with the amplified recoil is enough to require additional training for a semi-automatic. Additionally, every shot fired causes the muzzle to move as well, requiring a slight adjustment in aim after every shot. When you're stopping to reload anyway, that's not a big deal, but when the next shot comes only a second after the first, and the third a second after that, you've got to make those adjustments to your aim as an on-going process. That is a much more complex mental task that I would think requires additional training for most soldiers. I'm not an expert on firearms, though - I've never fired anything more powerful than a blackpowder hunting rifle (and I'm a terrible shot, at that!) The above paragraphs are based on my own elementary knowledge of physiology and physics. Perhaps it would make more sense to discuss this particular concept with a military person instead. Thanks, I've made a mistake here. It should add half your dexterity modifier in damage, not to attack rolls. But I strongly disagree with the fact that Rifle Training should have your horrid range restriction. Within two range incr should work, and within 3 or 4 when gaining the Musket sniper ability. You are right about the name of the Rifle Training ability, I didn't think that much about it.[/QUOTE] I completely understand your disagreement with the range restriction. I thought that you were going for a close-quarters specialist rather than an all-around warrior. However, because it mimics a Scout's Skirmish ability, there does need to be some kind of range or action restriction on it. Hopefully the idea to introduce a minimum range instead will make the idea more to your liking.
Tema69 11-20-07, 08:02 AM	Allright. A minimum range it is then. But then we still need a capstone ability. But I think you've cornered the class very well, but I dislike both our capstones now that we've discussed it. ;) But I like your rephrase of the Cover Fire. Could you make that a coherent ability, rephrased as you did above? Thanks. I hope you're still interested in helping out. /T.
Aerostoth 11-20-07, 11:07 AM	Just use Tinker from World of Warcraft RPG base book. Here: Click here (http://www.wowwiki.com/Tinker)
Tema69 11-20-07, 04:52 PM	I'm not sure what the Tinker has anything to do with an Infantry Rifleman/Grenadier? Would you mind explaining?
Aerostoth 11-20-07, 04:57 PM	the Tinker is a class based on creating and operating technological devices such as grenades and guns.
Tema69 11-20-07, 05:17 PM	Yeah, but this is a rifle and grenade specialist prestige class, not an all-round technical building class.
Aerostoth 11-20-07, 05:22 PM	tinker is a base class. You could use tinker as a foundation for grenadier, such as the levels stack for determining TL, bomb bouncing, fire resistance, or packrat
Tema69 11-20-07, 07:14 PM	Hm. But that would make this class very restrictive to other classes. I normally make my PrC so that classes from the Core books can enter. I do not play WoW, or own the WoW RpG book(s?). This class is not about creating guns, but using them, as it would be very unusual if all the infantry of an army (see the OP) would consist of people building their own equipment. That would deuniformise the army completely, thus making resupply impossible. Sure, a Tinker could probably enter the PrC and improve his gunnery abilities or whatever, but the main focus of this Prclass is an improvement of ranged capabilities for ranged musket users. In addition, grenading, digging, crawling etc are added.
Aerostoth 11-20-07, 07:17 PM	:embarrass ok. I get it now. thnks.
Tema69 11-20-07, 07:55 PM	You're welcome ;)
Tema69 12-04-07, 06:45 AM	Added a drawing. A new capstone ability would be much appreciated. Thanks.
DensharrRagingfire 12-06-07, 01:38 PM	I have a quick question, why didn't you just name this class the trench soldier? It seems like a great class but, you named it the Grenadier and gave it mostly Marksman abilities rather than Grenadier abilities. Why not name it the Marksman or Trench soldier, and create a Grenadier class that focuses on grenade-like weapons and abilities? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I like this class, I just was a little confused when I saw rifleman abilities rather than Grenadier abilities.
Tema69 12-06-07, 04:33 PM	Point taken. Grenadiers were riflemen too. They had additional abilities with grenades, but were not solely focused on them. I guess I could call it the Rifleman or the Trench Warrior/Gunner/Soldier..
DensharrRagingfire 12-09-07, 04:59 PM	I realise that Grenadiers were also riflemen. However, and I may be wrong, and I'm going off of WW1 and 2 soldiers, I believe that Grenadiers focussed more on grenades and carrying "assault weapons" like shotguns and tommy guns for when they softened up their enemies. I might be wrong, but when I hear Grenadier, I think of a guy who carries around lots of grenades and is more of an explosives/ demolitions specialist with a rifle, rather than focussing on the rifle and maybe having some additional training with grenades.
Tema69 12-09-07, 06:05 PM	Well, during WW1 and 2, german troops were named grenadiers (Folksgrenadier, Panzergrenadier, etc). And they were standard infantry (although Panzergrenadiers often were mechanised infantry). I don't know about allied infantry being called grenadiers though. Additionally, if you look at the Napoleonic wars, Grenadiers were riflemen with grenades (since grenades were rare and valuable weapons at that time). Any thoughts on a level 10 ability for this guy?
DensharrRagingfire 12-11-07, 04:59 PM	I would like to see something like a demolitions capstone ability. maybe something like remote detonate? A grenadier can create a bomb with a dc 20 craft (arms)/ (explosives?) check. This bomb can be set with a simple fuse that allows them to be detonated on a timer. Alternatively, a Grenadier can remote detonate the bomb himself this requires him to have a detonator and fuse. I really don't have too much time right now, I have to take a final exam in about an hour but, give me some more time and I'll clean this up for you and present my Demolitions ability to you.
Tema69 12-12-07, 04:10 PM	That'd be really cool, thanks! What craft should be used? Alchemy? Explosives? Fireworks (see the Wick Weaver class - but probably not, although there could be a synergy bonus)? I guess it should be Alchemy as thunderstones, acid and alchemist's fires are created from that. I think there should be various uses of the ability, for example (assuming one is using the explosives from DMG p. 144-146): - Bundled Grenades: Assembling 3 grenades into a single bomb creates a greater explosion. The blast radius and the damage is doubled. - Frag grenade: You may create Fragmentation grenades (as per the DMG rules). You may build them as rifle grenade. This triples the range increment when shot from a musket. This increases the Craft DC by 3. - Dynamite: You may create dynamite (as per the DMG rules). - Det Cord: You may create Det cord (as per the d20 Modern rules), which deals 2d6 points of fire damage. Det cord is an explosive in a ropelike form. Technically, det cord doesn’t explode—but it burns so fast (4,000 yards per second) that it might as well be exploding. Normally used to string multiple explosive charges together for simultaneous detonation (allowing a single detonator to set them all off), det cord can also be looped around a tree or post or other object to cut it neatly in half. The information represents a 50-foot length. A length of det cord can be spread out to pass through up to ten 5-foot squares. When this is the case, it deals the indicated damage to all creatures in each 5-foot square through which it passes. It can also be doubled up; for each additional 5 feet of cord within a single 5-foot square, increase the damage by +1d6 to a maximum increase of +4d6. Det cord requires a detonator or fuse to set it off. - Demolition: You may create powerfull explosives specially designed to take down buildings and inanimate objects. The explosive takes three rounds to set in place, but deals 6d6 points of damage to the structure. It ignores 10 hardness, but deals only 2d6 if used against living creatures. We should make this a table or something. And I guess the abilities should be spread out, because the bundled grenade isn't all that powerful. Whatdoyathink? Edit: If the Demolition is a capstone, it should probably deal an insane amount of damage. What I wrote above was simply guidelines. What about mines? And booby traps?