Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dySWN 03-08-07, 10:19 PM	This is a prestige class I designed for use in a custom campaign setting taking place in a semi-oriental country called Evermorn hidden in the far north of Faerum. I call it the Griffon Cavalier, and I based it largely on a conglomeration of paladin and ranger class features. Please have a look at it and let me know if there are things I should work on to make it more balanced. Thanks! PS: I appologize if it seems all jumbled up; I don't know how to put things in tabular format, and acutally if anyone can let me know how to do that I would be greatly appreciative.:D Cobalt Knight Griffon Cavalier (ckgc) Among the most respected of all Cobalt Knights are the elite mounted soldiers known as the Cobalt Knight Griffon Cavaliers. These powerful servants of the Three Virtues and Evermorn ride into battle atop special (possibly celestial) griffon mounts with which they share a special kinship, wearing ornately decorated armors made to make the Griffon Cavaliers look almost like they are themselves partially birdlike. Griffon Cavaliers go through years of intense special training as the elite cavalry of the Cobalt Knight organization under the guidance of clergy, and are respected throughout Evermorn. Griffon Cavaliers always begin play with the rank of Honored Commander (major) as a result of this special training, and may select commander auras accordingly. Additionally, Cobalt Knights and Evermornans friendly to their cause usually start with an initial attitude of friendly or even helpful towards Griffon Cavaliers, while the Griffon Cavaliers treat each other as beloved siblings. As a result, members often refer to their units as their family/fraternity/sorority at arms. Paladins who multiclass as Griffon Cavaliers may continue to progress as paladins normally. Requirements: Feats: Mounted Combat Skills: Ride 8 ranks, handle animal 5 ranks, knowledge (nature) 5 ranks Alignment: LG or LN Special: A prospective Cobalt Knight Griffon Cavalier must be at least nominally a member of the Cobalt Knights (meeting all the requirements thereof), must have completed special training at the hands of elite instructors, and must have the blessing of the clergy of Eldath, Tyr, or Gond (or more than one) to be accepted into the highly exclusive family of the Griffon Cavaliers. Class Skills: Balance (dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (royalty and nobility) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex). Skills: 6 + int modifier Hit Die: d8 Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, heavy armor, and shields (but not tower shields). Class Properties: Table: The Cobalt Knight Griffion Cavalier Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Griffon Mount, Aura of Law 2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Blessing of the Three Deities 3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Mounted Archery 4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Saddle Comfort 5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Celestial Griffon Mount 6th +6 +5 +2 +5 Improved Mounted Combat 7th +7 +5 +2 +5 8th +8 +6 +2 +6 Ride-By Attack 9th +9 +6 +3 +6 10th +10 +7 +3 +7 Improved Mounted Archery Spells Per Day: 1 - 0 2 - 1 3 - 1/0 4 - 1/1 5 - 1/1/0 6 - 1/1/1 7 - 2/1/1/0 8 - 2/1/1/1 9 - 2/2/1/1 10 - 2/2/2/1 Spells: A Griffon Cavalier prepares and casts divine spells, for which wisdom is the key ability. He must possess a wisdom score of at least 10 plus the spell’s level in order to cast a spell. His caster level is equal to half his character level. Griffon Mount: This ability functions exactly as the paladin’s special mount, with the exception that the mount is a griffon and does not improve until 5th level. Additionally, the mount need not be summoned; it is from the material plane and stays with its rider at all times in much the same manner as an animal companion or familiar might. If a character has a special mount as from the paladin class, this griffon mount replaces that special mount and the paladin’s level stacks with his Griffon Cavalier level for determining the special properties of the mount. Aura of Law: The Griffon Cavalier constantly exudes a sense of duty to his country and respect for the values that support it. This ability functions as the paladin ability of the same name. The strength of this aura is equal to the Griffon Cavalier’s class level Blessing of the Three Dieties: Starting at second level, the Griffon Cavalier gains a bonus to all his saving throws equal to his charisma modifier (if positive) Mounted Archery: The Griffon Cavalier gains Mounted Archery as the feat at 3rd level, if he does not already possess it. He need not meet the prerequisites for the feat to gain its benefits. Saddle Comfort: At fourth level, a Griffon Cavalier can use his cavalry training to improved effect. He may always take 10 on a ride check, even when distracted or otherwise engaged. Celestial Griffon Mount: The Griffon Cavalier’s special mount takes on the Celestial Creature Template (MM) at 5th level and my begin gaining benefits as a paladin’s special mount. If a character has a special mount as from the paladin class, this celestial griffon mount replaces that special mount and the paladin’s level stacks with his Griffon Cavalier level for determining the special properties of the mount. Improved Mounted Combat: A Griffon Cavalier becomes more comfortable in the saddle than on his own two feet. At 6th level, the Griffon Cavalier gains a bonus on all melee attack rolls made from the back of his special mount equal to one third his class level rounded down. Ride-By Attack: The Griffon Cavalier gains Ride-By Attack as the feat at 8th level, if he does not already possess it. He need not meet the prerequisites for the feat to gain its benefits. Improved Mounted Archery: A Griffon Cavalier becomes even more comfortable in the saddle as his career progresses. At 10th level, the Griffon Cavalier gains a bonus on all ranged attack rolls made from the back of his special mount equal to on third his class level rounded down. Ex-Griffon Cavaliers: A Griffon Cavalier who strays more than one step from Lawful Good loses all benefits of the class, including the services of his mount, and may not progress any further in the class until he atones with a clergyman associated with the Griffon Cavaliers. If the values of the Cobalt Knights are eggregiously violated by the character's actions (DM's discretion) then not even attonement can return class benefits; they are gone for good, and the character has been dishonored. Cobalt Knight Griffon Cavalier Spells: 1 – cure light wounds, bless, protection from chaos, protection from evil, light, divine favor, endure elements, detect magic, magic weapon, pass without trace, magic fang, detect chaos, detect evil. 2 – spike growth, resist energy, zone of truth, owl’s wisdom, eagle’s splendor, cat’s grace, shield other. 3 – cure moderate wounds, daylight, heal mount, magic circle against chaos, magic circle against evil, dispel magic, darkvision, greater magic fang 4 – cure serious wounds, mark of justice, nondetection, dispel evil, dispel chaos, honorable sword (sword becomes +5 weapon that deals an extra 2d6 against creatures not within one step of Lawful Good, otherwise as the holy sword spell)
Infinitive 03-09-07, 01:01 AM	This is a very interesting class concept. Have you looked at a griffin rider oriented PrC before? Are there any? I'm actually not sure, now that I think about it. Maybe reference Cavalier, Halfling Outrider, Knight, or even the Knight of Holy Shielding as a part of further development. Anyway, here are my thoughts on the class as it stands now: Entry Requirements: For a full BAB progression, spellcasting, special mount-oriented class, the entry requirements for this class are absurdly easy. As any melee oriented class, I'd take a one-level dip of this class just to get the mount, and because it's so amazingly easy. Might want to ratchet the entry reqs up some; make a BAB of 3 or 5 at least to hedge easy spellcaster access out. Skills/Profs: You're giving out way too many skill points per level here. These are the base classes that share 6+int/lvl: Ranger, Monk, Ninja, Beguiler. Only one of those has a full BAB progression, and all need high skill ranks in certain skills to perform their duties as part of their class. I wouldn't go more than 4+int/lvl with this class; 2+int would sound even better, given the benefits you get. As for proficiencies, correct me if I'm wrong, but you get Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) just for taking one level of this class? Wow! Maybe a bit much. The actual meat and potatoes of the class: BAB: I hear that full BABs are good for physical combatants, like griffin riders. Good call here. Spellcasting: Tanks that can heal themselves in a pinch are good, I hear. My only contention is that you should purge all offensive magic from this list. If you just leave buffs (and especially get the Paladin spell that puts armor on his mount for a day on) and heals on there, you've still got a very robust number of options to choose from. Side Note: Does this class allow you to continue to advance as a paladin if you came from that background? It seems to have the flavor, but you don't say so anywhere. Saves: 2 full progression saves might be a bit much. It's not over the line, but the class is juiced enough as a whole that this could be addressed. The Griffin: Okay, how does this guy work? Are you supplied with one for joining the PrC, or is it BYOG(riffin)? Is it a persistant companion that doesn't really die permanently like the Paladin's mount, can you get another one like an animal companion, or is it entirely mundane in nature? What happens if someone kills it? I think there needs to be more info on what happens if a Wizard Disintegrates my mount (aside from the 300 feet worth of fall damage I'm likely to take >_>). Blessing of the Three Dieties: So, if I take this class, and was a Paladin beforehand... do these two buffs stack? o_O I can picture this convo occurring: "Make a DC 22 Fort save or die." <--- (This should be daunting!) "Thanks, I've got an 18 Charisma. That means I've got +8 to all saves before base saves or other modifiers are applied. Plus my Cloak of Resistance +3..." ::Rolls Dice:: Let's see... I rolled a 7, plus 3 for my cloak, plus 4 for constitution, plus 8 for having really cool class features... 22." This class feature is WAAAAAAAY too good if it stacks with the Paladin version. WAY too good. If it doesn't, it's merely very strong. Saddle Comfort: Cool. This sounds just about right. Celestial Griffin Mount: Cool. A solid upgrade on my mount's durability just when I'm going to start really needing it. Very solid. Improved Mounted Combat/Archery (Lumping them together because they're the same basic effect): Umm... again, way too good. What this says is that rather than giving teh character a full BAB class, you're actually giving it a BABx1.5 class (which, after the damage bonus portion it grants, the class really is). It's usually a pretty sure sign that you're over the top when your class grants an attack/damage bonus progression that's better than anything Wizards has printed in the history of forever. I could see a +2-3 competence to hit here. Really nothing more. The damage portion is too much; these abilities are supposed to represent the rider's ease of riding, and how he's able to fire/smash face better in the saddle than out. That sounds like accuracy, not damage, to me. The feats you grant seem pretty standard. No beef with any of em. In summary: As it is currently written, this is the best physical class ever. Maybe tone it down a few notches.
enygmatic_me 03-09-07, 02:45 AM	If this is supposed to be a Paladin or Paladin/Ranger build then the Alignment should probably reflect that and be limited to LG only. You should also state that someone taking levels in this PrC may continue to take levels in Paladin. Skill Points should probably be dropped to 4+Int. I am a huge fan of Gond. That said, I have no idea why he would be part of the pantheon that patroned this organization. As a Netural deity who is based around invention and forge craft he doesn't really fit into the idea of a order based around justice and griffon riding. Blessing of the Three Deities seems a bit much to be tacking on top of Paladin bonuses. Improved Mounted Combat and Improved Mounted Archery are to much. You either should drop them or lower the BAB to 3/4. Now for some formatting help. at the start and at the end of a group of text with create a box. Replace the "0" with "O" for this to work. Build or Cut and Paste tables into Notepad (or some other mono-spacing writing program) before copying and pasting it here. This will help maintain the formatting so everything stays in nice and orderly columns. at the beginning and at the end of a group of text will create a drop down menu. Change the "0" to "O" for this to work. Hope this all helps.
dySWN 03-09-07, 10:32 AM	Wow, I'm really impressed with the ammount of feedback I'm getting on this class! Thanks all who took the time to examine it in more detail. Hopefully I can adress these issues here: Entry requirements: The three virtues that one must uphold to become a Cobalt Knight, let alone a griffon cavalier, are remarkably stringent, given that the Cobalt Knights are the nation's equivalent of samurai. The three virtues of Evermorn are Honor, Purity, and Tradition. In other words, the character must have remained celebate prior to marriage, can never have used drugs, must be within one step of LG, may not have committed rape or treason or murder even in the vaguest sense, must be a citizen of the country, and must never violate these rules or he will lose all benefits of membership (including, now that I think of it, rightly losing class benefits as well). These rules are unilateral and, once violated, are never considered attoned for. Lastly, a Cobalt Knight (and by extension a Griffon Cavalier) is bound for life to the service of the people of Evermorn as a samurai is to the service of his daimyo or shogun; once one joins the organization, the only way out of one's duty is death in service or permanent dishonor. Blessing of the Three Deities: no, this does not stack with the paladin's ability. As a side note, the reason that Gond is included in the deities involved in said three dieties has more to do with his involvement in the campaign setting than it does alignment; the nation that is the center of my campaign world posesses lots of geothermal vents and is beginning research into (very) early steam-powered mechanisms. They are very slightly ahead of the curve as far as tech is concerned, so naturally Gond has taken a special interest in their activities. In addition, some of the best sword crafters in the land live there. Mount: The griffon mount functions exactly as a paladin special mount with the exception that it is persistent (it does not need to be summoned). On the flip side, if the two get separated, the griffon cavalier can't just summon it; it has to be found again. proficiencies: Absolutely, in hindsight bastard sword proficiency is a bit much, and I will adjust the class accordingly. Skill points, BAB, Saves: normally I would consider this broken as well, but the way I see it the character taking levels in Griffon cavalier is essentially taking ranger levels with class benefits that only apply when mounted on one specific creature. Given that the character would gain virtually no benefit from the class while adventuring indoors, I see some of the overpoweredness as justly compensated for. I should prolly make adjustments to reflect this. The class does allow you to continue progressing in paladin. Attack/damage bonus from back of mount: Again, the criticisms are absolutely correct. I will reduce the bonuses to 1/3 class level (so as to be closer to ranger favored enemy bonuses) I have made the relevant edits in the class features listed in the first post. Have a look and let me know what you think. Thanks!
Infinitive 03-09-07, 12:18 PM	Okay, some feedback on your revisions: Entry Reqs: Though this is considerably more stringent than you previously had, I don;t think you're going in the right directions here. In particular, the "once violated, are never considered atoned for" clause seems excessively harsh (and might make for some paranoid players, if they're looking to get into this class). If a high priest blasphemes her patron diety, she can still atone; why, specifically, are these requirements more stringent? I just don't understand. Secondly, you might want to impose entry restrictions that relate to a character's deeds; I wouldn't think that the lords of your nation would hand over such a valuable commodity as a war-trained griffin (which I think has like a 10,000 GP market value) to someone who has yet to prove their valor repeatedly in the defense of home and hearth. Just a personal thought. Blessing of the Three Dieties: This is a substantial relief, but it turns this level into a dead level for Paladins entering this class. Maybe say that Paladins with the Divine Grace class feature instead gains a Smite Chaos that functions exactly like his Smite Evil class feature, but is tracked separately in terms of uses/day? Attack/Damage bonuses: I'd still say that you should limit this to accuracy, rather than damage. Say you're 10th level in this class/5th level Paladin. That means you get 3 attacks on a full round attack (with a fourth coming in just one level). Presume you're using a Longbow from your griffin. That's 1d8 base damage 3 times. However, you're adding 9 damage if all 3 shots hit; in essence, if you hit 3 times, your class feature has done more damage than any one of your actual shots. That's why I object to the damage bonus; it's like adding a fourth attack when you have 3, or a fifth when you have 4 (even at a +3 damage bonus on each attack). For reference, +3 to attack/damage on a specific weapon is valued at 18,000 GP, according to the DMG. At least the Ranger class feature only works against specific enemies; this just annihilates anything you see. See where I'm coming from?
dySWN 03-09-07, 12:33 PM	Okay, some feedback on your revisions: Entry Reqs: Though this is considerably more stringent than you previously had, I don;t think you're going in the right directions here. In particular, the "once violated, are never considered atoned for" clause seems excessively harsh (and might make for some paranoid players, if they're looking to get into this class). If a high priest blasphemes her patron diety, she can still atone; why, specifically, are these requirements more stringent? I just don't understand. Secondly, you might want to impose entry restrictions that relate to a character's deeds; I wouldn't think that the lords of your nation would hand over such a valuable commodity as a war-trained griffin (which I think has like a 10,000 GP market value) to someone who has yet to prove their valor repeatedly in the defense of home and hearth. Just a personal thought. Blessing of the Three Dieties: This is a substantial relief, but it turns this level into a dead level for Paladins entering this class. Maybe say that Paladins with the Divine Grace class feature instead gains a Smite Chaos that functions exactly like his Smite Evil class feature, but is tracked separately in terms of uses/day? Attack/Damage bonuses: I'd still say that you should limit this to accuracy, rather than damage. Say you're 10th level in this class/5th level Paladin. That means you get 3 attacks on a full round attack (with a fourth coming in just one level). Presume you're using a Longbow from your griffin. That's 1d8 base damage 3 times. However, you're adding 9 damage if all 3 shots hit; in essence, if you hit 3 times, your class feature has done more damage than any one of your actual shots. That's why I object to the damage bonus; it's like adding a fourth attack when you have 3, or a fifth when you have 4 (even at a +3 damage bonus on each attack). For reference, +3 to attack/damage on a specific weapon is valued at 18,000 GP, according to the DMG. At least the Ranger class feature only works against specific enemies; this just annihilates anything you see. See where I'm coming from? I never said that you couldn't attone for minor infractions against alignment - it's just that if someone eggregiously violates one of the three virtues (by committing rape, treason, cold-blooded murder, adultery, or some other large infraction) then they're usually cast out of the Cobalt Knights since such actions usually denote that the character represents more of a danger to the common good than a benefit. The requirements are more stringent simply because it means that even paladins can have more fun in their offtime. You'll never see a Griffon Cavalier carousing drunkenly with busty tavern wenches, whereas a paladin of, say, Sharess or Sune is under no such restrictions. Griffon Cavaliers are seen as national heroes and are respected and honored by all they meet, but in return for recognition they have to set a good example for the people they protect. As for the service to country, note the rank given in the original description. A major (according to Heroes of Battle, a book I use to a degree in my military-themed dungeons) has seen his share of combat, and if the character still qualifies after that much combat experience then he is definitely worthy of the mount as a reward. I see what you mean as far as the damage bonus and the blessing is concerned. Alright, I'll limit the extra mounted bonuses to accuracy and give paladins a +1 bonus to all saves at 2nd level to reflect the extra blessedness.