Post/Author/DateTime	Post
karossii 11-07-07, 04:07 AM	Okay, I decided to start a new thread to showcase this trio of prestige classes. Initially it was one 10-level PrC which tried to blend bards and paladins. As I got a lot of conflicting input from various individuals who had differing views of how a bard and paladin should be blended, I decided to break the one class into three. I now have three 4-level PrC's, which can be combined in various ways to produce several different types of 'bardadin'. The first, the Harmonious Partisan, is mostly bard with some paladin thrown in. He is a support character who can fight or defend others in a pinch. His support comes from buffing, healing, and spellcasting. The second, the Harmonious Guardian, is a combatant who provides some secondary support. He can fight, and when needed throw in some healing and buffing. The final PrC, the Harmonious Paragon, requires that you finish one or both of the other classes first; it is more of a pure blend (or so I hope) of both classes, split down the middle - but not simply a 50/50 split of two classes ala the theurge...instead it takes the combat abilities, buffing abilities, and spellcasting, and tries to compliment both sides with new abilities. -={ Commonalities }=- Each of the following three prestige classes gains the following benefits at first level. Bard Abilities: As per the Devoted Performer feat (a prerequisite to this class), all paladin and bard levels stack to determine the number of uses of bardic music each day. Levels in this class are added to that total, and also increases the bonuses from Inspire Courage based on bard + Harmonious [X] (but not paladin) levels. Paladin Abilities: As per the Devoted Performer feat (a prerequisite to this class), all paladin and bard levels stack to determine the damage bonus of your smite evil ability; levels in this class are also added to that total. Additionally, levels in this class are added to your paladin levels to determine the power of your Lay on Hands and Special Mount class abilities. If your paladin levels alone are not enough to grant a special mount, once your paladin levels + levels in this class (and any other class which stacks to determine the power of your special mount) reach 5 or more, you do gain one. Skills: Each of the following prestige classes have the same base skill list, as follows; Balance, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Listen, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, and Tumble. See each class for additional skills unique to that class, as well as the number of skill points received at each level. *All references to the ‘perform’ skill within these prestige classes refer more specifically to any form of vocalization; such as chanting, oratory, poetry, singing, or storytelling (and any other non-instrumental variants the DM may feel applicable on the field of battle, such as acrobatics or dancing, could also be included, they were left out by design as the character is assumed to have and make use of a Special Mount). Weapons and Armor Proficiencies: None of the following classes grant any additional proficiency with the use of any weapons, armor, or shields. Caster Level (CL): In each class table, there is a column labeled 'CL' - this indicates that BOTH the bard and paladin caster levels increase (note that this is not generic arcane or divine, but class-specific to only Bard and/or Paladin core-class spellcasting). These increases include not only caster level, but also spells available each day and spells known. This in itself does not include any other abilities of either class, though several of those abilities are in fact advanced; they are specifically covered in other class abilities of each prestige class. Support focused bardadin, ‘base’ class one http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/arcana300/985_boros1.jpg Requirements Alignment: Any Good (Usually LG) Skills: Diplomacy (6 ranks), Perform: any vocalization* (6 ranks) Feats: Devoted Performer Spellcasting: ability to cast Cure Light Wounds as an arcane spell Special: Bardic Music (including the Inspire Courage effect), Divine Grace Class Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save CL Special 1 +0 +0 +2 +2 +1 Song of Grace 2 +1 +0 +3 +3 +1 Chant of Courage 3 +2 +1 +3 +3 +1 Healing Harmonies 4 +3 +1 +4 +4 +1 Harmonious Presence Hit Dice: d6 Additional Class Skills: Knowledge (all skills taken individually), Use Magic Device Skill Points at each level: 6 Song of Grace: By expending one daily use of bardic music, all allies receive a bonus to saving throws equal to your Harmonious Partisan level. This bardic music effect requires 7 ranks of perform*, and lasts for 5 rounds after you stop. Chant of Courage: By expending one daily use of bardic music, all allies become immune to fear. This bardic music effect requires 8 ranks of perform*, and lasts for 5 rounds after you stop. Healing Harmonies: This is a two-fold ability. First, it grants an additional bardic music effect; by expending one daily use of bardic music over a ten minute period, you double the maximum daily amount of healing through your Lay on Hands ability. This uses standard doubling rules; the second use of this ability increases the total to 3X, then the third to 4X, and the fourth to 5X. You may only expend a number of daily uses of bardic music equal to your level for this ability. This has no effect on the amount of points already spent, it only increases the daily maximum. The daily maximum amount of healing through your Lay on Hands ability is reset each day (i.e. this is not a permanent increase). This effect of bardic music requires a minimum of 9 ranks in perform*. The second effect is to allow different applications of your healing touch. Each of these new uses of your Lay on Hands ability requires a certain amount of hit point healing to be expended, but instead of curing hit point damage it instead performs the listed healing. This still requires the same type of touch action as using Lay on Hands as normal would. These abilities are listed below; By expending 3 points of healing you can heal 1 point of ability damage By expending 6 points of healing you can remove the ‘dazed’, ‘fatigued’, or ‘sickened’ condition from one creature. By expending 9 points of healing you can remove the ‘exhausted’, ‘nauseated’, ‘poisoned’, or ‘stunned’ condition from one creature. By expending 12 points of healing you can remove the ‘blinded’, ‘deafened’, or ‘diseased’ condition from one creature. By expending 15 points of healing you can remove one negative level from one creature. By expending 15 points of healing per hit die as well as one additional daily use of bardic music you can instead restore life itself. Treat this effect exactly as the revivify (SC) spell. Harmonious Presence: Upon completing this class, you develop a permanent aura that provides the following additional benefits to all allies within 30 feet, and is doubled whenever you perform any form of bardic music. All allies gain a +2 (+4 when you are performing bardic music) morale bonus to saving throws versus fear and fear effects. All allies gain a +1 (+2 when you are performing bardic music) morale bonus to saving throws to resist any compulsions or mind influencing effects. If you have Harmonious Presence from another class, the listed benefits stack. The listed benefits also stack with any effects from the bardic music you are performing, if applicable. Combat focused bardadin, ‘base’ class two http://www.iranchamber.com/history/sassanids/images/sassanian_heavy_cavalry.jpg Requirements Alignment: Any Lawful (Usually LG) Skills: Diplomacy (6 ranks), Knowledge: Religion (6 ranks) Feats: Devoted Performer Spellcasting: ability to cast Bless Weapon as a divine spell Special: Bardic Music (including the Inspire Courage effect), Divine Grace Class Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save CL Special 1 +1 +2 +2 +0 - Smite Evil, Turn Undead 2 +2 +3 +3 +0 +1 Harmonious Mount 3 +3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Battle Cry 4 +4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Harmonious Presence Hit Dice: d10 Additional Class Skills: Climb, Jump Skill Points at each level: 2 Smite Evil: You gain one additional daily use of your Smite Evil ability. Additionally, you may expend three daily uses of your bardic music to use an extra smite evil attempt. To do so requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, after which your daily allotment of Smite Evil attempts is temporarily increased by 1, and your daily allotment of bardic music is temporarily decreased by three. You may only gain a number of extra smite evil attempts each day equal to your class level. Turn Undead: Your levels in Harmonious Guardian stack with all other classes which grant the Turn Undead ability to determine the number of times per day and effectiveness of your turning attempts. Additionally, you may expend two daily uses of your bardic music to use an extra turn undead attempt. To do so requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, after which your daily allotment of Turn Undead attempts is temporarily increased by 1, and your daily allotment of bardic music is temporarily decreased by two. You may only gain a number of extra turn undead attempts each day equal to your class level. Harmonious Mount: Once you have attained 6th character level, your special mount has associated with you long enough to understand the principles behind your bardic music. It may accompany your bardic music (through coughs, growls, hoofbeats, screeches, snorts, wingbeats, etc. - as appropriate for its type) as a standard action each round, providing a +1 bonus to all bardic music effects which provide a morale bonus, or adding +1 to the DC if the effect allows a saving throw. If the mount is actually capable of speaking one or more languages, this bonus increases by an additional +2 (as the effect is not language dependent, it does not matter if anyone affected by the bonus actually speaks or understands that language). At 9th character level, the required action for your mount decreases from a standard to a move action. Starting at 12th character level, your mount gains the ability to sing, in its own fashion. Even if it could not before, it learns to vocalize - it gains use of one language which you can speak and understand (either you can decide or it may be determined randomly by your DM). Not only does this guarantee the extra +2 bonus, but it allows the mount to perform its own bardic music, independently from you. It gains one daily use of bardic music per hit die it possesses, and knows all the same forms of bardic music effects that you do (with the same DC or level of bonuses you receive). It must meet all perform skill rank requirements for each type of music it wishes to perform (via its own skill ranks per hit die). These effects are independent of your own bardic music, and require the mount to spend the normal standard action each round to maintain (if that is required of the effect being used). Note that while your mount is performing bardic music, it cannot accompany you to empower your own bardic music. Battle Cry: This variation of bardic music requires that you expend a single daily use of bardic music (as a free action) in conjunction with either a full attack action or a charge attack on the round you initiate it. By doing so, all of your allies are inspired to truly heroic efforts in their own fighting ability. All allies within 30 feet that can see or hear your combat gain temporary hit points equal to (10 + your Charisma bonus). These hit points last as long as you continue to perform a full attack or charge attack in each round, and for 5 rounds thereafter (or until they are lost to wounds). These temporary hit points do not stack with any of source of temporary hit points; if any ally already has temporary hit points from another source, or receives them while they still have these, they take the greater total. This effect of bardic music requires a minimum of 9 ranks in perform*. Harmonious Presence: Upon completing this class, you develop a permanent aura that provides the following additional benefits to all allies within 30 feet, and is doubled whenever you perform any form of bardic music. All allies gain a +2 (+4 when you are performing bardic music) morale bonus to saving throws versus fear and fear effects. All allies gain a +1 (+2 when you are performing bardic music) morale bonus to saving throws to resist any compulsions or mind influencing effects. If you have Harmonious Presence from another class, the listed benefits stack. The listed benefits also stack with any effects from the bardic music you are performing, if applicable. Blended bardadin, ‘capstone’ class http://www.twitchyhamster.com/imgs/Paladin_of_Light.jpg Requirements Alignment: Any Lawful or Good (Usually LG) Skills: Diplomacy (10 ranks), Knowledge: Religion (10 ranks), Perform: any vocalization* (10 ranks) Feats: Devoted Performer Spellcasting: ability to cast Cure Moderate Wounds as an arcane spell and Bless Weapon as a divine spell Special: Bardic Music (including the Inspire Courage effect), Divine Grace Class Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save CL Special 1 +0 +2 +0 +2 - Smite Evil, Turn Undead 2 +1 +3 +0 +3 +1 Blended Spellcasting 3 +2 +3 +1 +3 +1 Cacophonous Resonance 4 +3 +4 +1 +4 +1 Song of Divinity Hit Dice: d8 Additional Class Skills: Climb, Jump, Knowledge (all skills taken individually), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device Skill points at each level: 4 Smite Evil: You gain one additional daily use of your Smite Evil ability. Additionally, you may expend three daily uses of your bardic music to use an extra smite evil attempt. To do so requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, after which your daily allotment of Smite Evil attempts is temporarily increased by 1, and your daily allotment of bardic music is temporarily decreased by three. You may only gain a number of extra smite evil attempts each day equal to your class level. Turn Undead: Your levels in Harmonious Paragon stack with all other classes which grant the Turn Undead ability to determine the number of times per day and effectiveness of your turning attempts. Additionally, you may expend two daily uses of your bardic music to use an extra turn undead attempt. To do so requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, after which your daily allotment of Turn Undead attempts is temporarily increased by 1, and your daily allotment of bardic music is temporarily decreased by two. You may only gain a number of extra turn undead attempts each day equal to your class level. Blended Spellcasting: You may prepare any bard spell you know in a paladin spell slot at the same level. You may also spontaneously cast any paladin spell you know as a bard spell of one level higher. For example, the first level paladin spell, Bless Weapon, may be spontaneously cast through a 2nd level bard spell slot. Alternately, the 3rd level bard spell, Gaseous Form, may be prepared in a 3rd level paladin spell slot. The spells are treated as if they are actually from the class that cast them, thus in the previous example, Bless Weapon would be an arcane (bard) spell, and Gaseous Form would be a divine (paladin) spell. Cacophonous Resonance: At 3rd level, you gain the ability to perform a devastating sonic attack, which can take effect in one of two ways. First, you may expend two daily uses of your bardic music ability and spend a full-round action belting forth a string of overpowering and supernaturally loud melodies which creates a 30’ cone or 60’ line (determined each time this ability is used) of sonic damage (1d4 per each actual rank in perform* you possess). This effect is instantaneous and may not be maintained. Alternately, you may expend four daily uses of your bardic music ability to begin a continuous droning chant which suffuses all of your allies’ weapons with resonating vibrations, increasing their damage by adding (1d4 points of sonic damage per each 2 actual ranks of perform* you possess) to every successful attack. Maintaining this effect is always a standard action each round, regardless of any spells, feats, or items you may possess which would normally alter that. All allies gain this bonus to damage as long as they can hear this performance and are within 30’ of you, and for an additional 5 rounds. This effect of bardic music requires a minimum of 12 ranks in perform*. Song of Divinity: At 4th level, you may expend a number of daily uses of your bardic music to achieve a divine transformation. You gain the benefits of the Greater Visage of the Deity (see SpC, pp. 231) spell for 1 round per daily use of bardic music spent. The transformation is a full-round action which does not count against the duration of this effect. Though you do not need to actively perform to either enact or maintain this ability, you are surrounded with a ghostly heavenly chorus of music for the duration of this effect. This effect of bardic music requires a minimum of 15 ranks in perform*.
Jaxgaret 11-08-07, 01:17 AM	Going to bed now, I'll check this out more fully when I get a chance, Karossii... If I don't post back here in a day or two, PM me a reminder! The quick look I took was pretty promising - love the layout, the pictures, and some of the changes I saw :)
Devil Gnasher 11-08-07, 02:03 AM	I acutally like the idea behind these prestige classes. Keep up the good work.
bkdubs123 11-08-07, 04:39 AM	These are much better! Very nicely done. All together they form a really interesting character. So you can take all of these to 20 right? Paladin 2 Bard 3 is all you need to qualify for the first one and then after that you can go into the 2nd and 3rd with no problem. Nice. You can get even 3 levels of something else thrown in there for kicks, maybe a Human or Half-Elf paragon...
karossii 11-08-07, 02:15 PM	Actually, the minimum I can see for the first one (Partisan) is bard 2/paladin 2, jumping in at 5th - assuming your charisma is high enough for a bonus 1st level spell. That is a little early for normal PrC entry, but not unheard of...and I don't think unbalancing. Or, if you want to ignore that class, you could get into the second one (Guardian) from bard 1/paladin 4, jumping in at 6th. That means the earliest entry into the last one (Paragon), which requires completing at least one of the above, is not until 9th or 10th. I'm going to post a thread to the character optimization forums asking for help in making sure this isn't unbalanced - while I know the guys over there can make anything seem broken, it becomes obvious if this class is or isn't based on how hard they have to work to get it there...
rampant 11-08-07, 08:53 PM	Very nice, I like the 3x4 system you used here.
karossii 11-11-07, 04:38 PM	Okay, per suggestions on the character optimization boards, I have made a clarification or two, and some minor updates. Both the Turn Undead and Smite Evil benefits from Harmonious Guardian and Harmonious Paragon are altered - there is now an action required for each extra use of either ability, and there is a daily limit equal to class level. Since both classes have this ability, and each goes to 4th level, that means a total maximum of 8 extra smite attempts and 8 extra turn undead attempts each day, IF the character has 40 uses of bardic music to sacrifice and 16 standard actions available to make the exchange. I also reworded the spellcasting bit to ensure only the bard and paladin core class' spellcasting is advanced. This was already my intent and I thought it was clear, but I spelled it out for certain now. Still open to all suggestions, critiques, and input! Thanks for reading my classes!
archerpwr 11-11-07, 05:25 PM	Idea on the raise dead effect: Make it 15 points of LoH/ HD and emulate revify or whatever the cleric version of last breath in spell compendium is. LoH is a burst style ability, so I just don't think raise dead is fitting. You need to be there quick to use it. Maybe decrease the time for trading music for LoH down to a fullround action as well.
rampant 11-11-07, 05:28 PM	Question when you say the paladin spell casting advances you mean like it does normally? That is to say is it still half caster level? Also The mount ability doesn't kick in till your 5th paladin level, but you can qualify for the classes with less than 5 paladin levels, so does a bard3/Paladin3/ Harmonius X z+1 get a mount?
karossii 11-11-07, 05:33 PM	Idea on the raise dead effect: Make it 15 points of LoH/ HD and emulate revify or whatever the cleric version of last breath in spell compendium is. LoH is a burst style ability, so I just don't think raise dead is fitting. You need to be there quick to use it. Maybe decrease the time for trading music for LoH down to a fullround action as well. Thanks - I have decided to try and retool the whole healing harmonies ability to streamline it rules-wise and play waise, and the raise dead will instead be based on revivify. Not sure how long the edits will take, hopefully not too long!
karossii 11-11-07, 05:37 PM	Question when you say the paladin spell casting advances you mean like it does normally? That is to say is it still half caster level?Yes, just as if you gained a level in the paladin class...I know, it sucks, but paladins just aren't great spellcasters, and I saw no need to change this (though I did bump it up a bit by the blended spellcasting in Harmonious Paragon). Also The mount ability doesn't kick in till your 5th paladin level, but you can qualify for the classes with less than 5 paladin levels, so does a bard3/Paladin3/ Harmonius X z+1 get a mount?You only get a mount if your paladin levels and Harmonious X levels combined are 5 or higher. So a Bard(N)/Paladin(3)/Harmonious X(1) would not have a Special Mount, but a Bard(N)/Paladin(3)/Harmonious X(2) would.
DavidWL 11-11-07, 07:33 PM	They are very neat classes - it was a good idea to break them into 3 related 4-level classes. Some thoughts. Healing Harmonies - really quite powerful and a lot of healing. At level 20 -> ~(17 paladin levels * 11 charimsa) * 20 bardic music = 3620 HP worth of healing, as well as the ability to heal virtually anything. While this isn't overpowering, do realize that it allows our Harmonious Bardadin to function as a primary healer. Harmonious Mount - similarly, quite a powerful ability, although also not unreasonable. Blended Spellcasting - moderately powerful, as it allows you to cast any paladin spell spontaneously I really like your idea of progressing both the Bard and Paladin caster levels! (And no other types of caster levels). That really keeps a great deal of coolness. I don't know if this is overpowered or not. I'll try to create a sketch of a build and discuss what it can do at various levels. Best, David
DavidWL 11-12-07, 12:00 AM	Build: Paladin 2/Bard 2/Harmonious Partisan 4/Harmonious Guardian 4/Paladin +2/Bard +2/Harmonious Paragon 4/ Substitution Levels: Paladin Substitution Level: Mystic Fire Knight p45 Champions of Valor Feats: Devoted performer Mounted Combat Power Attack Sword of the Arcane Order p34 ChV Battle Blessing Snowflake Wardance - Cha to Hit for 1 bardic music, last long Song of the Heart Law Devotion Casting: Casts as a 14th level bard (5th level spells) and a 14th level paladin (4th level spells) Mystic Fire knight Substitution level gives an extra paladin spell for each spell level & Caster Level = 18! (4th from Paladin + 14th from Bard) Can prepare wizard spells on the paladin side (Sword of the Arcane Order) Spontaneously cast the spells with the bard side (Blended Spellcasting), And cast the Paladin spells as an a swift action! (Battle Blessing) Great Access to UMD w/ massive Cha. Healing harmonies let's him act as a heal-monkey if necessary - particularly for HP healing Decent Bardic Music Inspire Courage +4, +6 with mount, Inspire Competence +2, +4 with mount, Song of Grace +5, +7 20 uses of Bardic Music Spells and Equipment also exist to increase the bonuses (the spell Harmonize, use a Horn, etc.) Combat ~+11 to hit (Charisma to hit from snowflake wardance) ~+5 to damage from law devotion +5 to hit and damage from inspire courage + Power attack to convert some of the Charisma bonus to extra damage - Combine this with a swift cast spell which ups damage potential Stats Saves are through the roof - 17/11/11 from class levels + Divine Grace ~+11 + Equipment + Spells ++ 16th level for purposes of Lay on Hands, Special Mount, Smite Evil HD are roughly 8.4 Skill Points are roughly 3.7 per level Can cast and wear (light) armor Summary Overall, it seems flavorful and fun, and not too powerful. It is more of a spellcaster than I think you first intended, with the mix of Battle's Blessing, Blended Spellcasting, Mystic Fire Knight, and Sword of the Arcane Order + UMD w/ high Charisma. High base saves + Divine Grace with very high Charisma make it incredibly tough. Decent Bardic music abilities, Decent Healing abilities, Decent in Combat As always, not overpowered because full caster's are Just That Good
karossii 11-12-07, 12:53 AM	Wow, thanks for posting that build - it is such a different path than the couple I have thought through, I doubt I ever would have gone that way. It is definitely much more caster based than I have seen in the builds I have thrown together for testing, and probably stronger than the ones I came up with. Looking through it, it is definitely close to overpowered (and I am sure it could be tweaked some more by those who specialize in such things)... but I agree than in the end it isn't too much. I had tried to 'break' it by following some of the inspire courage optimization tricks, and found it is actually a bit weaker than a pure bard in that area, but strong enough to contribute. I also went with the snowflake wardance TWF fighter I found in the optimization boards, and it was no dervish, but could hold its own. Finally, I threw together a character more from 'backstory' than optimization, picking what seemed to fit to a specific theme, and in the end he was a strong 5th wheel...not as strong as I would usually like, but almost a perfect fit for the character I initially started this prestige class (back when it was one) for. I'd love to see some other builds anyone else comes up with, as well as just general input on the flavor and/or any of the specific abilities. I still have plenty of time to tweak before I commit to an actual character build for the one character I am making this for, and aside from that I would love to see this set of 3 classes become something that others would love to use for their own characters! Thanks!
DavidWL 11-12-07, 01:57 AM	Regarding Healing Harmonies: The 1st ability is a hair too strong, the 2nd ability is too weak. 1st ability: The first ability still grants an amazing amount of HP healing. For example - the build I posted 2 posts above can heal ((11 Cha * 16 Paladin Levels)*(20 Bardic Music+1) = 3696 HP of damage. *OR* cause this much damage to undead. Part of the problem is that there is no cap to how much you can apply at once, meaning that you could instantly kill any undead creature you meet. You could instantly heal yourself (or any one character) of any amount of damage. Being able to instantly kill almost any undead is really too strong (because it's basically instant death unless you can avoid a touch attack). Being able to instantly heal ourselves isn't too bad. 2nd ability too weak The 2nd ability (as it is written now, requiring uses of bardic music) costs too much - requiring 3 uses to remove blindness or deafness is very steep. Especially when you can just cast a 3rd level spell. Similarly, to use the "revivify" ability on a companion, you'd have to give up *all* your bardic music uses. This means that it would never be used since most players would use some of the bardic music at the beginning of the day on the first ability of healing harmonies! I'd suggest that you go back to the way it was before, having the abilities powered off of the HPs of the Lay on Hands ability. Just add a cap which says you can use no more than 1 bardic music per class level to increase the Lay on Hands ability. Or somehow add a cap. Best, David P.S. Reading what I just wrote, I see that it may be a bit unclear. Please ask questions if needed, and I will attempt to clarify.
karossii 11-12-07, 02:35 AM	Yes, that one ability has been the thorn in my side here and on other boards (and with local friends)! I think it needs to be included in some form or fashion, but it always comes off too weak or too strong (or, as you present it, both at once!) I do like your suggestion, however a max of 5X healing is all but useless for some with those extended healing bits - most notably the raise dead / revivify effect. I can see working around that by dropping it from X/hit die points of healing to a flat amount, but then it becomes too powerful at later levels. I'm looking at the 8-12 level (lets go with 10) range character, with a non-optimized (or slightly optimized) charisma of 20ish; assuming at least 2 levels lost to both classes gives LoH a multiplier of 8 for paladin levels and around 5 for charisma - 40 points of healing. That would only raise a 2 hit die creature at 20/hit die - that is 1/5 your own level. Having sunk all possible uses of bardic music into healing, you're now at 5X 40, or 200 - an equal level ally can be raised - IF you reserved all healing for that one touch attempt to raise (and had prepared for this possibility earlier in the day). Or, I go back to allowing a delay of an hour or two, or even a day delay before you have to revive them. Maybe dropping it to 10/hit die would be better - making that 40 average raise a 4 hit die ally; using only half your total daily healing (assuming 5X from 4 uses of bardic music). This allows for other forms of healing in the same day; but still has several of the same issues from above... I'll ruminate some more and post whatever I come up with for a solution later.
karossii 11-13-07, 02:01 PM	okay, I think it is fixed. I went with the maximum = level for bonus healing. I went back to points per status healing. And I dropped the revivify effect to 5 hit points/hit die, and one extra use of bardic music. It is no replacement for a proper raise dead - you only have 1 round in which to get to the dead ally, and then it costs enough to make sure you can't repeatedly use it; at 15/hit die a same level ally takes 60% of your maximum daily healing (through LoH), assuming all 4 uses of bardic music are used for healing; plus an additional use of bardic music. But it is enough that in a pinch, it can be useful to save some money and spell resources for your allies.
DavidWL 11-14-07, 02:21 AM	okay, I think it is fixed. I went with the maximum = level for bonus healing. I went back to points per status healing. And I dropped the revivify effect to 5 hit points/hit die, and one extra use of bardic music. It is no replacement for a proper raise dead - you only have 1 round in which to get to the dead ally, and then it costs enough to make sure you can't repeatedly use it; at 15/hit die a same level ally takes 60% of your maximum daily healing (through LoH), assuming all 4 uses of bardic music are used for healing; plus an additional use of bardic music. But it is enough that in a pinch, it can be useful to save some money and spell resources for your allies. I like it. A vast improvement on either one of the previous versions that I've seen. Adding a cap helps balance the 1st part, and adding a bardic music cost (and the cap) helps balance the 2nd part. Good on you. Best, David
karossii 11-16-07, 02:53 PM	Thanks all for the praise, complaints, critiques, and compliments I've gotten here and elsewhere. Through all of your input, I believe I finally have a well balanced set of classes here which will fit the bill just about perfectly; not just for the one character of mine I set out to make this for, but for many others out there as well!
Crimson_Concerto 12-11-07, 10:41 PM	Awesome classes! :D I have a couple of questions, though, if you wouldn't mind clarifying please? Smite Evil: You gain one additional daily use of your Smite Evil ability. Additionally, you may expend three daily uses of your bardic music to use an extra smite evil attempt. To do so requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, after which your daily allotment of Smite Evil attempts is temporarily increased by 1, and your daily allotment of bardic music is temporarily decreased by three. You may only gain a number of extra smite evil attempts each day equal to your class level. Now, I'm confused by the wording of this. Does it mean that I get to use this Smite Evil with the same standard action I used to spend the 3 bardic music uses? Or would I have to wait until the next round to use the Smite Evil attempt? Cacophonous Resonance: At 3rd level, you gain the ability to perform a devastating sonic attack, which can take effect in one of two ways. First, you may expend two daily uses of your bardic music ability and spend a full-round action belting forth a string of overpowering and supernaturally loud melodies which creates a 30’ cone or 60’ line (determined each time this ability is used) of sonic damage (1d4 per each actual rank in perform* you possess). This effect is instantaneous and may not be maintained.This has no save? :confused: Should it not have, say, a Fortitude save or something determined by a perform check, just like all other bardic music abilities that allow a save?
DavidWL 12-12-07, 12:54 AM	This has no save? :confused: Should it not have, say, a Fortitude save or something determined by a perform check, just like all other bardic music abilities that allow a save? Actually, I think that power is more interesting as it is. Compare: Level 10 Wizard - empowered Fireball - 10D6 * 1.5 = 10 * 3.5 * 1.5 = 52, save for 1/2 (26) Level 10 Harmonious fellow - 13D4 = 13 * 2.5 = 32 You do much less than the wizard, but you are guaranteed to do more than a Wizards minimum (in this simple example). Also, it take 2! uses of Bardic music, which is a very scarce resource. Additionally, the truth is that the wizard has better things to do then send out empowered fireballs! The buffing power is actually more powerful, but even that is balanced against the Dragonfire Inspiration feat, as it does less damage and costs much more. Best, David
karossii 12-12-07, 09:15 AM	Awesome classes! :D I have a couple of questions, though, if you wouldn't mind clarifying please? Now, I'm confused by the wording of this. Does it mean that I get to use this Smite Evil with the same standard action I used to spend the 3 bardic music uses? Or would I have to wait until the next round to use the Smite Evil attempt?It takes a separate action. If you know you will be using an extra smite evil at some point in the day, you'd probably do this early on and just have the 1 extra daily use floating out there for the rest of that day...but if you wait until you need it, you waste an action to get it...it is a bit of a balancing factor. This has no save? :confused: Should it not have, say, a Fortitude save or something determined by a perform check, just like all other bardic music abilities that allow a save?Not that there have been a ton of replies, but I'm surprised you're the first to catch that. I thought of adding a reflex save, but then I thought it wasn't all that strong and might not warrant one...as you can see in the quite well put explanation David came up with.
Absurdo 12-12-07, 10:30 PM	I would like to take this time to compliment you on some very interesting classes. I would happily play them in a heartbeat, but I just have some very annoying nitpicks to make concerning my warped little idea of balance. Don't let my insane opinions get in the way of saying that you have not done an excellent job creating a very creative set of abilities for a very rare pairing of base classes. Now then... It takes a separate action. If you know you will be using an extra smite evil at some point in the day, you'd probably do this early on and just have the 1 extra daily use floating out there for the rest of that day...but if you wait until you need it, you waste an action to get it...it is a bit of a balancing factor. Forgive me for arguing, but I thought you might appreciate some more feedback. On this, specifically, I somewhat question the need for an additonal 'balancing factor' on this ability. THREE bardsongs/day is already a very high price to pay for an ability so simple as Smite Evil. Smite Evil does two things of note against very situational (evil) targets. It is a single attack with an extra bonus to hit equal to your CHA mod which does a so-so amount of bonus damage. Even with an astounding CHA score and at level 20, a single smite evil attack won't have more than an extra, oh, say +10 to hit , and +20 to damage. If you have a decent weapon, you're probably better off just using a full attack. I'm also very curious as to why you believe that a Turn Undead attempt, which is much more useful (I think) than a Smite Evil attack due to divine feats, only requires two bardsongs. Simply put, I do not believe Smite Evil is a powerful enough ability to warrant such a dramatic drawback for getting additonal uses. Three bardsongs is already a very steep price to pay, but requring two turns to do it? I thought of adding a reflex save, but then I thought it wasn't all that strong and might not warrant one...as you can see in the quite well put explanation David came up with. Again, I'm going to have to argue and throw a lot of math at you. The major thing going for this specific ability is that it's a tremendous amount of SONIC damage. There's very, very little out there with resistance or immunity to sonic damage. Also, it looks like the lowest level you can get this ability is... 11. Right there, that's 14d4 damage (an average of 35) assuming maximum ranks in perform, which anyone taking this class is going to have. Now, a level 11 sorcerer casing an empowered fireball is going to do 10d6 x 1.5 damage (average of 52). A Harmonious Paragon can use their sonic attack a total of 5 times per day. A sorcerer of equal level can use the empowered fireball a BASE of 4 times per day. This doesn't include a bonus spell for having 20+ CHA. (and for comparison, a wizard can use a maximized fireball once per day at 11th level (twice at 22+ INT), or an empowered fireball 2 times per day. 3 times with 20+ INT.) Let's do some more math, since I'm sure you love that so much. The empowered fireball has roughly a 50% chance, on average, of doing half damage (average 26). Our sonic spell is still going strong at an average of 35. Furthermore, at level 11, the average party is more than likely to be coming across a handful of outsiders and other high-level creatures. Resistance to fire, or even immunity in a lot of cases, seems very commonplace. Even a resistance to fire of 5 will bring our ultimate average for the fireball (assuming a 50% chance to save for half) to 34. So ultimately, just comparing averages, it's 35 average sonic damage versus 39 average fire damage (without the fire resistance 5 facotred into the previous paragraph). What makes the Paragon's ability more attractive is that, and I've said this before, it's sonic damage. It can also, by default, either be a 30' cone or 60' line, making it more versatile than the empowered fireball, which is locked at a 20' radius. Sonic damage gets resisted once in a blue moon. Fire damage gets resisted plenty of times, and can, to a few special cases involving the evasion class feature or fire immunity, be completely negated. There's also spell resistance... Briefly mentioning the ally-buffing version of the same ability... it can translate into well over 50 sonic damage (party of 4, assume 2 people with weapons. At level 11, they have at least 2 attacks. 4 attacks total with +17 sonic damage to each can top out at 68 bonus damage. Assuming only 2 attacks hit, that's still 34 bonus damage). But enough of me ranting and throwing numbers out of my ass. In ultimate final conclusion, I think the conversion of bardsongs into smite evil and turn undead is underpowered in requiring both usages of multiple bardsongs and multiple turns, and that the Cacophonus Resonance ability should allow a fortitude save (makes more sense than reflex save for sonic damage, also negates the evasion class feature) in order to balance it out. And out of the sake of pure random, how do you feel about the 'progression' of Bardic Knowledge for these classes? I can't help but notice it's missing.
karossii 12-13-07, 11:11 PM	I appreciate the reply, both for the helpful mathematical breakdown, as well as your complements!!! Okay, first you brought up a point in which I royally screwed the pooch. I never intended it to be 3 BM for smite and 2 BM for Turns... that is backwards as you surmised. I'll edit it to fix the two transversed numbers soon. Next, I think that the ability to use smites to empower other abilities besides a smite is out there in several forms, just as turn attempts don't need to be wasted on undead. Add in the fact that this class will most likely have BM out the butt (yes, I WENT THERE :yuck: - read that pun and try not to chuckle) and I don't think two (or even the mis-written 3) sacrificed uses of BM is enough of a mitigation. I'm certainly open to opinions, but for now I don't see an issue leaving it as an extra action...it would be easy enough to sacrifice the BMs early in the day for one extra smite and one extra turn, then if either are actually used, spending an action to regain them later. As for the fact that it is sonic damage, I don't see that as a huge imbalance, as many wizards, sorcerers, and other casters (including divine) can spend a feat or two (or take the right classes or buy the right items) and cast spells as sonic or other types of damage. So I would ignore resistances and immunities for balancing reasons. However, I never went through the actual math of the matter, and your numbers do add up, even ignoring the resistance factor. So I don't mind adding in a fortitude save for half damage. I may even lower the damage a bit, but I don't want to get into some complicated formula for figuring it out...like 1/3 actual ranks (yes, for some I play with that is complicated, lol). I am open to any suggestions you might have!
Absurdo 12-14-07, 12:22 AM	However, I never went through the actual math of the matter, and your numbers do add up, even ignoring the resistance factor. So I don't mind adding in a fortitude save for half damage. I may even lower the damage a bit, but I don't want to get into some complicated formula for figuring it out...like 1/3 actual ranks (yes, for some I play with that is complicated, lol). I am open to any suggestions you might have! Crimson_Concerto had a good suggestion in making it a perform check to set the DC, and it is feasable to do so. At level 11, it would average out to a save DC of 24 (10 + 14 ranks... not including any bonuses from a CHA mod or any other modifiers), which is pretty impressive. Level 5 spells (since I seem to be fixated on the empowered fireball for an example) from a caster with 20 in their respective stat is going to have a DC of 20. The benefit of having a perform check as the DC is that it fits the flavor well, it will give a higher average save, which I think is tolerable considering that the ability isn't entirely devastating, and a good number of classes have good fortitude saves. The problem is when you start thinking about later levels, the perform check can reach an extremely high number without much difficulty. It's already pretty impressive, and it's not going to get any easier to resist as levels increase. It's not a critical problem for the save DC to be so high, but it is something worth noting. ...Maybe a fixed DC of the character's perform modifier? Ranks, CHA mod, and any other bonuses. Hmm... that actually seems reasonable. It would average out to 19. (14 ranks, +5 CHA mod). I think I like that. This is, of course, only my opinion. And I'd like to take this time to ask your opinion about a few more nitpicks I have. None of these are truly valid concerns, but they're just things I noticed and have an opinion on. I honestly do think that with the above change, the classes would be just fine. - Lack of bardic knowledge progression - Harmonious Mount: Mount does not gain perform as a class skill, which may be a balancing factor. - Harmonious Presence: Makes no mention of the Paladin's existing anti-fear aura, if present. - Song of Grace: Currently caps at +4. Would seem to make more flavor sense to have it equal to the character's CHA mod, to reflect the Divine Grace ability from the paladin. - Battle Cry: It is not mentioned if the affected allies need to see and hear you at the start, end, or the entirety of the charge. - Turn Undead: Class level has nothing to do with the number of times per turn undead attempts per day. Again, don't let my nitpicky quirks get in the way of my compliments.