Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Clem-Da-Squig 03-05-08, 10:43 PM	I ask because they seem like they would be fun to play, up until they frenzie and TPK. They seem better suited to being the BBEG, than an actual PC.
JaronK 03-06-08, 02:41 AM	No problems here. Just make sure the party can cast Grease when you go postal at the wrong time and you're fine. There's also an exaulted feat that fixes it (Righteous Rage, which does talk about Frenzy), but of course then you have to be good, and who wants that? They're terrible BBEGs, btw. They'll kill the party too fast. JaronK
I_roll_ones 03-06-08, 03:46 AM	Imagine facing against Bearclaw Redtooth, the evil tribe's most fearsome berserker. An eight-foot man, painted in the blood of those he has killed with his bare hands, and wears the hands of champions of good he has slain as a belt. He who has amassed a giant army of warriors who threatens to slaughter your nation. And then he fails a save and goes after his own minions rather then your party. The BBEG is stealing your experience! And the fun! That...Was rather pointless, wasn't it?
vlsigma 03-06-08, 09:18 AM	One of my friends used the berserker once. We were tailing a spellcaster when he trapped a door before we could get through. Being a 1/2 Giant with the Monkey Grip feat, he whipped out his huge platinum greataxe and cut through the wall next to the door in 2 or 3 turns.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-06-08, 09:41 AM	I ask because they seem like they would be fun to play, up until they frenzie and TPK. They seem better suited to being the BBEG, than an actual PC. A lot of folks complain about how the frenzied berserker will flip out and kill his party if he gets hurt. This isn't actually true for a thoughtfully built berserker. PHB 2, Steadfast Determination: Con instead of Wis to will saves. Boost the crap out of your Con (you'll want it anyway for Fort, hp, and increased rage and frenzy durations), maybe throw in a dip in a class with strong will progression (and/or pick up Iron Will), devote your money to boosting your will save. You want to be able to consistently make a DC 20 Will save. Some people complain that's not enough, and point to the DC 10 + incoming damage Will save to avoid entering a frenzy involuntarily when hurt, but that's not a dealbreaker. See, unless you took the Instantaneous Rage feat (and of course you shouldn't), you can't actually start a frenzy out of turn, even if you're thrown into a frenzy by incoming damage. You have to wait till it's your own turn. And the frenzy ability states that as a free action, you may make a DC 20 Will save to end your frenzy prematurely. And you can do this once per round, not once per frenzy. The relevance here is that as long as you can make that flat DC of 20, you can stop your frenzy as soon as it starts if you need to, before you act on it. You don't get to act on it until you reach your round and may start making flat DC saves to end it. Blowing the scaling DC save vs incoming damage just means you waste one of your frenzy uses per day. And of course a lot of the TPK argument ignores the fact that the berserker only turns on innocent bystanders after he runs out of enemies he can perceive anyway, so it's not like you even need to drop out of frenzy immediately... most of the time you take damage, somebody will clearly be responsible and need to die. You most likely won't even need or want to make the flat DC 20 end frenzy save at first. Not so bad, really. ;)
Cartigan 03-06-08, 10:36 AM	PHB 2, Steadfast Determination: Con instead of Wis to will saves. Boost the crap out of your Con (you'll want it anyway for Fort, hp, and increased rage and frenzy durations), maybe throw in a dip in a class with strong will progression (and/or pick up Iron Will), devote your money to boosting your will save. You want to be able to consistently make a DC 20 Will save. Well a raging Berserker with Steadfast has a modified will save of +4. +6 if you wait for Greater Rage (which you might as well unless you are Human and can get the 4 feats you need by the time you get the BAB qualification). And you should have a decent Con to begin with, so with that and the Will save of +3, you only really need to roll an 11 or better. So ~50% chance without factoring in the base Con mod which will probably be +3/4 to begin with. Some people complain that's not enough, and point to the DC 10 + incoming damage Will save to avoid entering a frenzy involuntarily when hurt, but that's not a dealbreaker. That is really nasty, especially when you start fighting things that can add more than +10 to your Will save to not freak out and slaughter everything.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-06-08, 10:45 AM	That is really nasty, especially when you start fighting things that can add more than +10 to your Will save to not freak out and slaughter everything.This is exactly why you need not to take Instantaneous Rage. You need the window of opportunity between "freak out" and "slaughter everything" to slip in the saving throw where the DC doesn't care about damage. If you frenzy out of turn, and folks start provoking AoOs before you can make your premature ending check, things could get ugly real quick.
bfiggins 03-07-08, 02:11 AM	Follow our group's example, and get a pacifist with the Vow of Peace feat. Such a character is continually projecting an area of Calm Emotions. If the Berzerker takes damage, they don't frenzy until their next turn - in the meantime, they aren't frenzied yet, so they can willingly fail their save for Calm Emotions. They'll still need to make the save, I think, and tick off a Frenzy use if they fail, but they're not gonna go berzerk.
Cartigan 03-07-08, 10:49 AM	Follow our group's example, and get a pacifist with the Vow of Peace feat. Such a character is continually projecting an area of Calm Emotions. If the Berzerker takes damage, they don't frenzy until their next turn - in the meantime, they aren't frenzied yet, so they can willingly fail their save for Calm Emotions. They'll still need to make the save, I think, and tick off a Frenzy use if they fail, but they're not gonna go berzerk. That's great, as long as the Vow of Peace character stays away from the rest of the group :rolleyes: The Frenzied Berserker is the most likely person in the group to be able to overcome the Vow of Peace compulsion.
bfiggins 03-07-08, 02:27 PM	That's great, as long as the Vow of Peace character stays away from the rest of the group :rolleyes: The Frenzied Berserker is the most likely person in the group to be able to overcome the Vow of Peace compulsion. Yeah, we know we're still taking a risk with it, but hey, what's the fun of playing it safe all the time? As long as the Vow of Peace fellow gets to the berzerker before she frenzies, she should be able to willingly fail the save and calm down. That's assuming she wants to, of course...but she's not frenzied yet, so she's not required to try to make the save. Probably the biggest thing we're relying on, though, is her base 21 Will save. So she'll succeed the DC20 check to stop frenzying on anything except a 1. At least that way she's only gonna murder the party 1 out of 20 times... Probably the most important thing to have when playing with a berzerker is an understanding of tactics and an ability to sense the flow of the battlefield. If victory is certain, the Berzerker should start making those Will saves to end the frenzy now, rather than waiting until every enemy is dead. It's okay to let the ranged warriors pick off a survivor or two.
Cartigan 03-07-08, 04:43 PM	she should be able to willingly fail the save and calm down. Ehh, wrong. He can't willingly fail the save because you are now an opponent. Probably the biggest thing we're relying on, though, is her base 21 Will save. So she'll succeed the DC20 check to stop frenzying on anything except a 1. At least that way she's only gonna murder the party 1 out of 20 times... You don't fail on a 1 with Steadfast Determination..
nightwyrm 03-07-08, 05:02 PM	The thing with having a berserker in the party is that someone (or everyone) else in the party has to adjust their character/play style to take into account that there is a berserker with the party. Some players may be willing to do that but there's going to be a problem if your party don't want to adjust their playing style. Like having a paladin in the party, having a berserker is going to be a group effort.
Cartigan 03-07-08, 05:06 PM	Except a Paladin isn't likely to kill you if some one steps on his toe...
nightwyrm 03-07-08, 05:09 PM	Except a Paladin isn't likely to kill you if some one steps on his toe... Well..yes...but what if you're an evil toe-stepper :D
Cartigan 03-07-08, 05:13 PM	Well..yes...but what if you're an evil toe-stepper :D Then he isn't allowed to travel with you in the first place.
Sunic_Flames 03-07-08, 05:14 PM	A +18 modifier combined with Pride domain (from the same dip that boosts your will saves) means you need 4 consecutive 1s to start killing your party. That's 1:160,000. I'd be more concerned with Dominate, personally. Reason is simple. You can make the same at any time during your turn. So you make a save at the end of the turn you think you don't need it anymore, and another one at the beginning of the next turn. You only fail on a 1. And if you do roll a 1, Pride domain lets you reroll. So you get 4 chances. If at any point during this you roll a non 1, you're fine. Of course a simple +19 to saves and Steadfast Determination works better and removes even that minimal chance of failure. But that sets you back two feats. Is it worth two feats to avoid such a minor risk? I think not. Neither requires your party to do anything special.
Eerongal 03-07-08, 05:22 PM	Well..yes...but what if you're an evil toe-stepper :D Then he shouldn't have given you the chance to step on his toe. The smites should've started long ago :P
Neraagile 03-07-08, 07:37 PM	The thing with having a berserker in the party is that someone (or everyone) else in the party has to adjust their character/play style to take into account that there is a berserker with the party. Some players may be willing to do that but there's going to be a problem if your party don't want to adjust their playing style. Like having a paladin in the party, having a berserker is going to be a group effort. Well, the Berzerker actually isn't that hard to control. A wizard or rogue with a Wand of Grease, that isn't a lot of adjustment, because the Berzerk is unable to use any dexterity based skills (amongst others) he will automatically fail his balance check when greased, appart fact that he will kill anyone he percieves as a opponent first, (I had completely forgotten this one) when he's done chopping the foes to tiny bits and turns to the party grease him up and have fun. The thing you should be more concerned about is that once he gets Deathless Frenzie.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-07-08, 09:28 PM	appart fact that he will kill anyone he percieves as a opponent first, (I had completely forgotten this one)Yeah, that part doesn't get mentioned so much. It undermines the points of people who want to pretend that any time the berserker stubs his toe he will TPK, and so scream that he's broken. And I'm beginning to suspect that most berserker detractors haven't even read the part where it explicitly states a berserker can make a nonscaling DC 20 save as a free action every round to drop out of frenzy prematurely.
Timespike 03-07-08, 09:52 PM	Except a Paladin isn't likely to kill you if some one steps on his toe... The paladin is much more likely to kill you for stepping on OTHER people's toes... Be that as it may, they real key here is to make either the paladin or the FB smart on top of being dangerous. No penalties to INT or WIS, and as high a WIS score as you can swing are givens, but remember that if you hit and are about to frenzy, speaking is a free action that can be made at any time. Saying "GET BACK!!!" to your allies gives them a chance to take whatever action the need to. Ideally, this would mean that the wizard would flick a wand of grease out of his wand bracer, the cleric would buff you with owl's wisdom, and then the wizard would invisibility sphere the more vulnerable members of the party. Frenzied Berserkers are awfully good at being shock troops, but the rest of the party needs to realize that they're basically unleashing a force of nature and prepare accordingly.
kalstrand 03-08-08, 02:55 PM	Steadfast Determination does not keep you from failing a Will save on a 1. It keeps you from failing a Fort save on a 1.
Eldritch_Lord 03-08-08, 03:12 PM	Steadfast Determination does not keep you from failing a Will save on a 1. It keeps you from failing a Fort save on a 1. Is there an equivalent feat for Will saves? If not, I'd suggest Martial Study for the Diamond Mind maneuver that lets you replace a Will save with a Concentration check--only once per encounter, but you don't fail on a 1 and if you max Concentration you have a +(level+3)/2 Will mod instead of +(level/3).
taybon 03-08-08, 06:01 PM	Is there an equivalent feat for Will saves? If not, I'd suggest Martial Study for the Diamond Mind maneuver that lets you replace a Will save with a Concentration check--only once per encounter, but you don't fail on a 1 and if you max Concentration you have a +(level+3)/2 Will mod instead of +(level/3). The maneuver is called Moment of Perfect Mind, but that won't work because frenzy specifically disallows the use of the Concentration skill.
Eldritch_Lord 03-08-08, 09:12 PM	The maneuver is called Moment of Perfect Mind, but that won't work because frenzy specifically disallows the use of the Concentration skill. That's the one; I keep confusing that with Mind Over Body. I missed the "no Concentration" part, though--I don't think I've ever used one before. Disregard that advice, then.
Carpe Diem 03-08-08, 10:02 PM	I played a Frenzied Berserker in a campaign for a bad reason. When the campaign started, I played a centaur (no class, I was still doing the savage progression) and I was having a lot of fun with it. I had very few proficiencies, especially in the armor department so I had to be wary of attack or complete wreck anything that tried to hurt me. I put ranks into Tumble because I had this hilarious image of a tumbling centaur in my head and bought a masterwork horn that I called Gjallahorn after Heimdall's horn in the Norse mythology. I would often sound this horn whenever I needed to find my party or to intimidate guards into doing my bidding. There was of course no magical effect, I was just being ridiculous and everybody was enjoying it. Anyhow, I was the strongest melee combatant and there were two Aasimar in the party that were performing well for themselves. The DM was partial to the Whisper Gnome in our party, because that was his favourite race, but the whisper gnome's player was new to the game and his character wasn't very good. The DM quickly became frustrated at the characters with LA and said that they were broken (he didn't understand LA or savage progression at all) and that if anybody died, they would not be able to play anything with LA or racial HD. I argued that this was not entirely reasonable, especially for those of us that had played everything in the player's handbook and everything they wanted to play in the Races series. But he would threaten the party with Pit Fiends (at 5th level) if anybody played a character with an LA. I argued that the LA was balanced and tried to explain how, but he wouldn't hear any of it. So, to teach him a lesson (uh-oh) I thought I'd play a human female (doesn't get much more basic than human, and female sounds weak - a deep rooted societal thing, rather than a personal thing). So I went with frenzied berserker to prove to him that it isn't the race that decides how powerful your character is, it's your player. I'll be honest and tell you that it wasn't very much fun to play as because the +10 strength bonus just came too early in the game and the DM didn't know how to deal with it. I literally mopped up every combat single-handedly and the party healer (Favored Soul) would heal me when I was almost done before I died when my Frenzy wore off. The Frenzy wasn't too big of a problem, and I made sure to make the party aware of it. One day after a particularly stressful battle where the party's Paladin threated to kill the Favored Soul for being a bad healer, I finally failed a Will save and hacked into the Paladin by personal choice. Everyone was happy. Buy the feat for extra frenzies and voluntarily launch into every combat. If you get forced into combat, kill everything and then pass a DC 20 Will save. I made wisdom one of my priority scores, and got a periapt of wisdom and made it the first thing to raise. Generally I needed a 7+, but I only failed once between 6th-13th level. After that I switched characters because the frenzied berserker is the most boring character I've ever played. If you want the strength bonus, there are other ways to get it with magic. Just putting it out there.
bfiggins 03-10-08, 12:31 PM	Ehh, wrong. He can't willingly fail the save because you are now an opponent. Ehh, wrong, to you too, Cartigan. Why would I be an opponent? I haven't injured or threatened the berzerker, and the berzerker is not in a state of frenzy at that time. I'm sorry to bring this whole thing up. The question of the thread is whether people have had positive experiences with a Frenzied Berzerker, and I have to say that yes, I have! There seem to be a lot of people who assume that a Berzerker is a 24/7 killing machine who hates everybody, but I think these people have not actually read the rules and numbers for the class.
Cartigan 03-10-08, 01:54 PM	Ehh, wrong, to you too, Cartigan. Why would I be an opponent? I haven't injured or threatened the berzerker, and the berzerker is not in a state of frenzy at that time. Maybe you, and your other party members, should read the FB entry before playing one. The question of the thread is whether people have had positive experiences with a Frenzied Berzerker, and I have to say that yes, I have! If you fiddle with the rules (ie, "willingly fail a save"), then yes, it's really easy.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-10-08, 02:45 PM	No, you actually are wrong. Despite the crap that gets flung around in these forums all the time, the berserker doesn't turn on everyone unless he's got no real enemies left. He doesn't immediately consider his friends his enemies the moment he goes berserk. Tough break for the berserker haters, but that's the way it is.
Cartigan 03-10-08, 03:21 PM	No, you actually are wrong. Despite the crap that gets flung around in these forums all the time, the berserker doesn't turn on everyone unless he's got no real enemies left. He doesn't immediately consider his friends his enemies the moment he goes berserk. Tough break for the berserker haters, but that's the way it is. Except for the fact that makes no sense. They are still foes to the Berserker, they just die last.
Eldritch_Lord 03-10-08, 05:33 PM	Except for the fact that makes no sense. They are still foes to the Berserker, they just die last. It specifically says the FB attacks allies only after all enemies are dead. If the allies counted as enemies, how would you determine who dies last?
Cartigan 03-10-08, 06:28 PM	It specifically says the FB attacks allies only after all enemies are dead. If the allies counted as enemies, how would you determine who dies last? Allies are still foes, they just make it so they are the least important foes so the Frenzied Berserker doesn't waste the party before everyone else.
kalstrand 03-10-08, 06:53 PM	The problem isn't when there are enemies around. The problem occurs when the FB hits a trap and fails the save not to enter a frenzy. Now the only opponents are his allies.
Eldritch_Lord 03-10-08, 08:32 PM	Allies are still foes, they just make it so they are the least important foes so the Frenzied Berserker doesn't waste the party before everyone else. But they aren't foes until there are no enemies around; until then, they are still allies. If you have 4 PCs vs. 4 kobolds, the FB will take out the kobolds first and treat the other PCs as allies until then. Only when there are no enemies to begin with, as kalstrand said, do they first and automatically become foes. It's a difference of semantic, I'll admit, but it's an important one in some cases.
Grod_The_Giant 03-10-08, 08:45 PM	hey, people, I've got an idea: let's just cross out the part of the description that talks about attacking allies last, and maybe the line about rage and frenze stacking. Problem solved!
Cartigan 03-10-08, 09:15 PM	But they aren't foes until there are no enemies around; until then, they are still allies. No, they are still foes. They are just least important foes.
Celestial_Gold_Dragon 03-10-08, 09:45 PM	This might have been different in the Sword and Fist version, but I just looked in Complete Warrior and it never mentions viewing allies as foes or enemies. It only says that if the FB runs out of enemies during the frenzy he must attack the nearest creature. It doesn't say that the FB must view this creature as a foe and attack it to the best of his ability but that makes sense to me. In my last campaign my friend played one and we only had an actual problem with him "losing control" once, although he had me scared pretty bad another time. Our conjurer and spellsword w/ bag of tricks kept him busy until he came to. I always liked the look of the class, but I just don't see the survivability of the character. It always looks like a bomb with a quick burning fuse.
Shadowhowler 03-10-08, 11:38 PM	My problems with the FB are mostly roleplay related. It seems to me it would be hard for a party to want to hang around with one of these guys without some metagaming involved. I mean, the first time one turned on you... assuming you survive the encounter, after the fact you would be asking "Hey, what the &*%$#@ is your problem anyway? Why did you attack us?" to which the FB responds something along the lines of "I'm sorry, I wasn't in control, I just lost it... couldn't stop myself." Ok... MAYBE... if your good friends you try and forgive and move on. Till it happens again. A lot of the ideas I hear on controling a FB seem to be to smack of more then a bit of metagaming. For me, rare would be the character that is willing to go to all that trouble just to adventure with a raving madman. Sure... when he goes off he squishes things really good... but would you every really TRUST this guy? Not likely. The class is rough on party unity, and stretchs the bounds of what I think most characters would be willing to deal with... even if the players themselves think its a good trade-off. Anyway, YMMV. To address the OP's question... no, I have not had a good experince with a Frenzied Berzerker in a party. I have not had ANY experince with a Frenzied Berzerker in my party... cuz most everyone I have played with agrees that the PrC looks like more trouble then its worth. However, in a game I'm currently playing... there are two Barbarian characters in the party and it is looking like one of them may take the Frenzed Berzerker PrC soon. If this happens... I'll have my fist experince... for good (or evil) in the near future... and I'll certainly come back and let you guys know how it goes. I'm the party Arcane Caster... so 'dealing' with the FB may fall on my shoulders... or the DMnpc Cleric, or both of us. We shall see what happens.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-11-08, 01:27 AM	Cartigan is being hypocritical here. He clearly either has not read the FB entry, or is "fiddl with the rules". [i]The entirety of the "hurt your friends" portion of the FB class entry is as follows:During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or her own).That's all. Anything beyond that is 100% pure BS.
ciaran 03-11-08, 08:31 AM	I ask because they seem like they would be fun to play, up until they frenzie and TPK. They seem better suited to being the BBEG, than an actual PC. If you mean has one finished off the party and then dropped dead at the end of combat, then yes. Is it a positive experience? Well, it was pretty funny.
bfiggins 03-11-08, 05:35 PM	Maybe you, and your other party members, should read the FB entry before playing one. If you fiddle with the rules (ie, "willingly fail a save"), then yes, it's really easy. Keep your interpretations, then; I'll go with what the rules say. You know, the ones in these rulebooks that say 'Dungeons and Dragons' on them? They've been kind of useful in the past.
1 ton ghost 03-12-08, 12:12 PM	why are you guys taking it so personal? if he wants to houserule or not houserule, so be it. not your campaign and to each his/her own. as for me, it's simple; no enemies available, friends are, they will do. you must engage. if they're hiding, not available, etc., do party mounts count? i know, pack animals and all aren't a "credible threat", but... my concern was this; given that you must attack, there comes a point when you must cosider "how far" he'd go. all FBs have Power Attack so would you? if so, how much? perhaps some sort of 2nd Will Save to see how much you might PA vs. the party, etc? no easy solution here. the traps and random dmg ruling kinda' got under my skin, but i stuck it out and interpreted the rules VERBATIM as it was my group's 1st at bat for FB. didn't want to risk anything i guess. never took a trap, etc., as we were wise enough to employ the rogue when it seemed feasible. also, to gauge the best way to employ "Indrid". read, risk assesment of post-frenzy fallout. still, it seems odd that some falling blocks could set you off to turn on your friends. seems fishy in that frenzy is reserved for actual enemies. remaining frenzy, this can get real awkward when nearest living body is your g/f, the party cleric. having Fast Move and the ability to bench a Chevy, well, i punched her ticket cuz' i had to. she couldn't "outrun the bear" as it were (full plate) while the rest of the party did. we tinkered w/ Calm Emotions, considered tanglefoot bags, etc. no one had the gall (foolishness) to grapple me for restraint, so i just recommended they stay mounted to outrun me if need be and make periodic Heal checks on the enemy to see how close to death they were...and how close they (the party) might be given any remaining frenzy.
Caladors 03-12-08, 12:41 PM	I have a Frenzied Besker in one of my games. And as a DM I do some times find them some times troublesome to deal with. But as for not being role playable. Well the group on a whole bar one poor bastered of an elf rouge are all as evil as hell (how ironic aye the rouge being the only remaining good member of the group) But anyway back to the point it's basicly the charater is a Half-Orc (omg your really suprised huh?) whom was a body guard to a mage before they got dropped in sigil and as far as the group was conserned he was just kinda there until in a few combats he saved there there collective arses. But as the campagin became a bit darker (The ranger had to kill his g/f with a mirror as it was the only object that contained silver and she had apperently turned into a vampire) he became more dark and sullen. And he basicly became a monster the groups trump card. They keep him around because of his ability as a combatant and because his mere presence keeps danger at bay but still oddly close. It's an interesting dinamic. But for them in good groups the only way I could see it working is if they had it as a sort of hidden dark side that they all knew about but couldn't control. But as a DM I have had to interly change my way of thinking with some things like certain creatures have very limited life spans as they will be one hitted by this guy with out magical aid which is a little silly. So there has to be planning and such. But I will admit I am a little tired of there tatic of make him big throw him at the enemy and watch from safe distance.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-12-08, 01:05 PM	I think folks are taking it personally because the frenzied berserker class touches on some issues that some folks take very seriously; RAW vs RAI and save-or-lose vs hp damage (and fighter type units in particular) being the really big ones. To a lesser extent, the issue of mixing strict RAW and estimated RAI tends to come up in FB discussions, and that can leave folks heated when going into future FB threads. I happen to be pro-FB myself. I hate to see casters get away with murder all the time while warriors warm the bench, and while they don't come close to being the equals of casters in total capability, berserkers can at least be powerful enough to nearly approximate them in terms of killing power. And I really like the style - they took the meanest, craziest core class and made it meaner and crazier. So I find anti-FB exaggerations, suggested nerfs and outright lies somewhat offensive. I do, however, think that FBs must be built responsibly, as should any powerful character. If your wizard gets Dominated because you dumped Wis and didn't take any other boosts (trusting your base Will to save you), and ends up TPKing, you're just as guilty as a TPKing berserker would be.
Caladors 03-12-08, 09:51 PM	Quick question RAW? and RAI? I know FB because of the title dah and TPK total party kill but i don't know those other terms.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-12-08, 11:32 PM	RAW = Rules As Written RAI = Rules As Intended Both are problematic in their own way. RAW leaves out a lot expecting you to have common sense, but RAI is just a fancy way of saying "this is what I want the rules to be and I'll claim legitimacy whether or not it was the actual intention". For example, RAW doesn't list many negative effects from the dead condition: you don't even lose your actions. RAI there is obviously that characters with the dead condition act like dead people, even though that's not explicitly spelled out. And then there are situations like this, where folks who hate a class will imply that RAI is that a class' features are so self-defeating they're useless as a PC or a NPC, when the RAW make it pretty clear that's not the case.
Shadowhowler 03-13-08, 01:14 AM	If your wizard gets Dominated because you dumped Wis and didn't take any other boosts (trusting your base Will to save you), and ends up TPKing, you're just as guilty as a TPKing berserker would be. Well, I certainly don't agree with THAT. A wizard with a weak save who gets dominated and off the pary is sad. However, even planing to take the FB PrC is like straping dynimite to your back. If your careful and thoughtful about it (sometimes to the point of metagaming, which is another problem I have with the FB) you can midigate most of the danger... but you CHOSE to bring the danger in the first place.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-13-08, 02:12 AM	But that same statement applies to any class powerful enough to kill most/all of its allies if it suddenly turns on them. So, all full casters, the frenzied berserker, possibly some transformational classes and maybe a skill monkey making extreme use of sneak attack or skirmish. FB is just upfront about it. As for metagaming, no character built to function well is made without that. Frail bookish wizards that spend all their free time studying and get no exercise, having above-average Con scores for the hp, Concentration and Fort saves? :eek: Say it ain't so! I really think a lot of the argument against frenzied berserkers applies to any really potent class, but people often ignore it. They don't ignore it for FBs because their class entry mentions it, and because people have become so used to the possibility with other classes that they think it's normal. And like any other potent class, you need to shore up your weaknesses or deal with the consequences.
Caladors 03-13-08, 09:59 AM	Wait hold up your saying if a wizard fails will it's sad but with any good frenzied beserker wouldn't they get steadfast deterimiation. Sure endurance is a bit of a lame feat but still. Please do not retort not all frenzied beserkers will have that because that makes your arugement of 'sad wizard syndrom' invalid. I am a DM and I can clearly see the down sides of the class but just because there is a danger there doesn't mean it isn't good. Whats that classic bussiness term? 'the higher the risk the higher the return' Dispite the fact that it gives me head aches as a DM I enjoy my players enjoying the game, and there is something enjoyable about build your own monster apperently (which is what the party seems to do.) And as a DM I gain a great ammount of enjoyment of watching things go wrong when he frenzy's, mostly the paniced reactions of the group going "Oh god it's lose again what do we do" Like I remember when he first gained the class he TPK an enemy group of NPC adventure (well just him more or less) and then he turned around and they all ran and barred a door big enough for them all to brace it. And all of there combined efforts failed at his first charge. So they all ran execpt the ranger whom braved a hit to darkness. (tiefling) And then jumped off a balacony to escape his wrath. I think the down side can be part of the existement I mean when you think about your really just letting a wild animal tag around with you. And I mean we have never seen that go wrong in real life.
bfiggins 03-13-08, 12:29 PM	My opinion is that the Frenzied Berzerker has a responsibility to get his Will save up to 18. That way they only fail the DC20 check to stop frenzying on a 2. There are a few ways to do that - Steadfast Determination is one, and Superior Resistance (a level 6 spell) is another. Building up your Will save does take time, and going into the class at level 7 is probably just looking for trouble. Still, once you've got your save that high, the Berzerker is only dangerous if they roll a 1 on their Will save - 1 out of 20 times. That's a risk I'm willing to take. Nothing is certain in D&D, and compared to facing off with undead dragons, save-or-die spells, and cunningly laid traps and betrayals, having a Berzerker around is a picnic. I'm not arguing that a Berzerker is safe. They're never safe. But the potential risk of killing me is outweighed by the potential reward of protecting me from being killed by all the other dangerous stuff in the world.
1 ton ghost 03-13-08, 04:27 PM	ah, the voice of reason. you'd be amazed how many ppl gloss over Iron Will. they all want to shoot the moon for their full BAB attacking types (tanks if you'd rather) and augment their already formidable offensive abilities, but shoring up your otherwise poor Saves is imperative. pretty much any caster, especially Wzds, given their high Int, are gonna' zero you in a round or 2 as the party's "tank". having established that modicum of crucial intel, they will target you thusly. that is, you will no longer be subject to Fort Save attacks when they know mentally you are weak. same thing w/ other classes. assuming you've ID'ed the rogue, you aren't going to attempt a Fireball and group him given the liklihood of a high Reflex let alone Evasion, right? it's just like gambling really, you're kinda' guessing around at who's what before you committ to a serious engagement. my FB "Indrid Cold" swore by Iron Will once i earned it that is. so did the party. i mean, it's terribly useful overall. i prefer the broader reaching feats anyway as you'll get more use out of them and practicality is far more important than isolated case studies where that "1 specific feat" might come into play. get your money's worth so to speak. otherwise, consider: -slowing the FB down to allow escape downtime (tanglefoot bag, Slow, forcing them into difficult terrain, upping your own speed [horse, etc.]) -sleep poison, though i doubt you'll breach the (augmented) Fort save -Hide, Invisibility, anything. they aren't very preceptive when freaking out -you could keep them tethered like wild beasts. consider the theoretical FB in "300". the very large, brutish Persian immortal they kept shackled "until". good RP and a risky dynamic, but better than losing a fellow PC maybe. -consider a Beguiler or Controller type PC as a "babysitter" or "good buddy"
Earthcrosser599 03-13-08, 10:22 PM	Nope, I've never had a good experience with one. One game I ran had one, and he ended up taking out the party. He did focus on having his Will save high, but all it took were a few lousy rolls, and all my hours on campaign creation were for nothing. I'm not sure who was more annoyed, the other players, or me. None of the other DMs around here seem to allow them in their games for similar reasons. It's becoming powerful at the expense of the party.
Shadowhowler 03-14-08, 12:04 AM	I really think a lot of the argument against frenzied berserkers applies to any really potent class, but people often ignore it. They don't ignore it for FBs because their class entry mentions it, and because people have become so used to the possibility with other classes that they think it's normal. And like any other potent class, you need to shore up your weaknesses or deal with the consequences. There are not any other classes, that I am currently aware of, that will come after thier friends if they run out of enemies. THAT is why it gets mentioned with FB so often, and that is why there is a differance. Any character can be 'taken over' by magic and turned agaist the party. The FB is the only one I know of that does this ALL ON HIS OWN.
1 ton ghost 03-14-08, 11:04 AM	Nope, I've never had a good experience with one. One game I ran had one, and he ended up taking out the party. He did focus on having his Will save high, but all it took were a few lousy rolls, and all my hours on campaign creation were for nothing. I'm not sure who was more annoyed, the other players, or me. None of the other DMs around here seem to allow them in their games for similar reasons. It's becoming powerful at the expense of the party. apologies for your inconvenience. i've heard it before, but i think the problem therein rests w/ the controlling PCs, not you as the DM, though it does suck to see your campaign hooks and plots shot to Hell. sorry for that. that is, this PrC, like any class/PrC is a tool. it is very likely the participating PC did not know how to use the tool effectively, nor did the remaining party, hence their TPK. they most likely failed to plan accordingly and gave the FB far too much leeway in the frenzy. think of them like forest fires, you gotta' hem them in, turn them into controlled explosions, not towering infernos. difficult to be sure, but w/ a little RP and some planning, not impossible. you wouldn't give a child a loaded gun, right? when i used mine (FB), i only killed 1 PC and that was a special circumstance, not a TPK. that 1 PC (cleric) was laregly due to her pride. stupid, i know. she was warned that the main antagonist was nearing negative HP/death and i totally had things in control w/ my FB. i thought, "perhaps she's sticking around in case i drop myself given Con discrepancies and post-frenzy fall out", but no, she was just being gung-ho and wanted to get a few hits in herself rather than actually role-play out "the high Wisdom score." dropped the ogre mage and said, "sorry honey, you're closest..." she was stuck in Full Plate (20ft move) and i...uh, wasn't. not only that, but she was wounded from previous blows. most importantly though, she did not heed the advice of the other PCs claiming, "we've been counting his frenzy rounds, you're in danger, get the Hell out." her pride cost us valuable campaign time (we were on a clock), cost the party 5k in diamond dust (Raise Dead), and served as an imortant lesson, "don't be stupid when you've had ample warning and plenty of evidence." after that, for many levels to come, not 1 more snag cuz' we planned accordingly, made special provisions here and there, and i took some initiative to help insure my party's safety while i was still sane. boycotting the PrC as a DM is your perogative, but you can't treat it like other Ftr or Brb classes. it requires a little more tact and thought to which i suspect your PCs were either unprepared or unexperienced. either way, not your fault.
BobSutan 03-14-08, 01:39 PM	FB is easily controlled with Calm Emotions, which is what, a 2nd level spell? Keep a scroll handy and no big deal.
Cartigan 03-14-08, 02:10 PM	FB is easily controlled with Calm Emotions, which is what, a 2nd level spell? Keep a scroll handy and no big deal. Calm Emotion spells/scrolls are limited. Frenzy isn't. Then this is assuming the FB can willingly fail the save.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-14-08, 02:28 PM	:uh-huh: You are aware frenzy is limited by duration and uses per day, and that you can't buy scrolls of it, right?
Cartigan 03-14-08, 03:03 PM	:uh-huh: You are aware frenzy is limited by duration and uses per day, and that you can't buy scrolls of it, right? Hm, I thought it activated regardless when you got hit. Then you might as well use the class and do stuff to burn frenzies every day.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-14-08, 03:15 PM	That's possible. Locking the berserker in an adamantine cage, naked, and poking him with a stick until he stops fighting back at the beginning of each day could work. He wouldn't lose that much anyway, the better use of Power Attack is the big thing there and that works regardless.
1 ton ghost 03-14-08, 03:37 PM	That's possible. Locking the berserker in an adamantine cage, naked, and poking him with a stick until he stops fighting back at the beginning of each day could work. He wouldn't lose that much anyway, the better use of Power Attack is the big thing there and that works regardless. that's completely bombastic but funny as Hell. :D nice... preventitive maintainence as it were. i suppose it is conservatively more responsible to do this ahead of time than risk him/her freaking out during sensitive downtimes, say, when his bath water is too hot at the inn, he/she frenzies, and he beats the nearby staff to death in soapy, naked frenzying fashion w/ some soap on a rope (flail?). is the accidental freakout rule just for regular dmg? i know someone out there is gonna argue, "ah, frostbite...you took some non-lethal dmg." i thought it was just normal dmg, but isn't normal fisticuffs non-lethal? that is, a punch to the face would probably set off an FB i'd wager, but a forced march shouldn't, right? related: an FB riding along w/ his friends in the city was tossed from his horse when the animal was spooked by a Ghost Sound. one failed Ride check and the Falling Dmg later, dude frenzied and started ethnically cleansing the adjacent market place. horrific, he had Great Cleave too. massive body count of Commoners and Experts until he sucumbed to Deep Slumber. Calm Emotions; we explored this option before and it's not a bad venue to be sure of, but it's not 100% either. no FB, more specifically upstanding PCs in good fashion, would voluntarilly "fail his save" for this to work. that's metagaming, cheating really, if i ever saw it. he makes the Save normally. problem is i thought Will Saves go up during Rage and Frenzy, yes? here's a thinker: when you frenzy and are fighting your friends, how much, if any, do you determine during a Power Attack vs. them? DM let's you decide freely mid-frenzy vs. normal enemies, but wouldn't you also PA your friends too? i mean, how much punch do you pull and not metagame?
kalstrand 03-15-08, 12:35 PM	Thats the problem with Calm Emotions. Either the FB builds his Will save in order break the Frenzy and therefore resists Calm Emotions or he tanks his will save to guarantee failing the Calm Emotions save but in the process eliminates his limited built in control of the Frenzy. If I have a player that is dominated or something and ordered to kill the party I let the player continue to play the character without any input on my part as long as the player continues to act how his character acts normally. If I have a FB in the party and he full Power Attacks all the time I expect the same when he turns on the party. If he determines how much PA to use each round I expect him to make the decision just as against an enemy and only say anything if he seems to be changing his play since he is attacking allies.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-15-08, 11:44 PM	I think (at least for non-evil frenzied berserkers, and perhaps some of the more moderate evil ones), the desire might be to defeat in combat, not to murder. Against both allies and enemies that need not necessarily be destroyed outright, power attack should probably be tuned to bring the target as close to 0 hp as possible. If they're on the ground at -6 and bleeding out, they're definitely beaten, and can be finished off or healed as necessary. Course I'm sure there are also the wilder and/or crueler ones that just want to hit folks so hard their entire skeletal systems fall out their asses. Those guys would be tuning their power attack to do as much damage as possible while still having a very good chance of connecting, even on allies.
Neraagile 03-16-08, 12:08 PM	Not looking at the Frenzied Berzerkers Will save (which any decent player should maximize to the point of not having to roll to keep Frenzy in check) A Frenzied Berzerker is a group effort to keep in check, not a big one, but still. Frenzy: -Lots of snip- While Frenzied, the charater cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidation), the Concentration skill, or any ability that requires concentration. next up grease: Conjuration (Creation) Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target or Area: One object or a 10-ft. square Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: No A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check (this is a dexterity based skill, which the berzerker is unable to use). Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details). This single 1st level spell will completely lock the Berzerker down as long as she is frenzied, Wizards have 5 1st level spells at level 7 (at least) so a Wizard will be able to completely control a non-epic Berzerker since she only gets Frenzy 5/day, backup? What about Grease on a stick, the wand will be around 750 gp. A 7th level character will have an average of 19000 gp (wealth by character from DMG) so a character with a wand of grease will only have to use 3.95% of their total wealth to keep a frenzied berzerker in check, which seems fairly reasonable to me.
Shadowhowler 03-16-08, 12:12 PM	Okay frenzy: next up grease: This single 1st level spell will completely lock the Berzerker down as long as she is frenzied, Wizards have 5 1st level spells at level 7 (at least) so a Wizard will be able to completely control a non-epic Berzerker since he only gets Frenzy 5/day, backup? What about Grease on a stick, the wand will be around 750 gp. A 7th level character will have an average of 19000 gp (wealth by character from DMG) so a character with a wand of grease will only have to use 3.95% of their total wealth to keep a frenzied berzerker in check, which seems fairly reasonable to me. A Frenzied Berzerker is a group effort to keep in check, but its not very hard to do. Riiiiight. So, without cheese-riddled metagaming... how does the Wizard KNOW that while frenzy the Berzerker is completly unable to even use a DEX based skill, thus making the greese spell and Auto-stop? I guess this is the awesome way to handle the FB if you don't give a crap about metagame cheese.
Neraagile 03-16-08, 12:23 PM	Riiiiight. So, without cheese-riddled metagaming... how does the Wizard KNOW that while frenzy the Berzerker is completly unable to even use a DEX based skill, thus making the greese spell and Auto-stop? I guess this is the awesome way to handle the FB if you don't give a crap about metagame cheese. hmmm, it's metagaming I'll give you that, how the wizard will find out I have no idear, but it's an easy way to handle the FB. I'm not saying it is possible for a character actually to know how to do it, but I'm just saying controling the FB isn't that hard when you actually look at whats there. Personally I would perfere having the high will save.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-16-08, 01:07 PM	Riiiiight. So, without cheese-riddled metagaming... how does the Wizard KNOW that while frenzy the Berzerker is completly unable to even use a DEX based skill, thus making the greese spell and Auto-stop? I guess this is the awesome way to handle the FB if you don't give a crap about metagame cheese. By not going out of his way to act intentionally stupid just to avoid being called names by max-minners. I don't know if you've ever seen somebody in the middle of a temper flare-up so bad they lose control of themselves, but folks in that state are not generally graceful. Knocking into easily avoided obstacles and tripping over one's own feet on flat clear floors/ground can and do happen. Grease is an obvious choice to try and slow down or stop the guy, and avoiding it because it works 100% of the time is metagaming just as much as using it because it works 100% of the time. But I suppose using something any reasonable character would expect might work is impossible if the player knows it will work. Metagaming isn't just for optimizers, you know. Oh and before you call it pro-berserker metagaming to have Grease prepared, I'm gonna go ahead and call BS on that ahead of time. Grease is one of the most long-term useful and versatile 1st-level arcane spells around, it'd be idiotic not to have that one available, frenzied berserker or not.
1 ton ghost 03-16-08, 01:54 PM	i know about the skill discreapancies and so forth, but it's not like tightrope walking. in Frenzy, wouldn't they do just about anything to get to their chosen target? simply saying they become impotent floundering aggressors during a Grease attack seems, well, foolish if not unbalance IMO. i can't help but feel they would actively try and reach you by any means necessary and Balance isn't, to me, such a big leap of faith, you know? i mean, they'd Swim or Climb to reach you, yes? oh, but those are Str based skills, so that's ok, right? you see where this is going, right? Grease is totally valid IMO, a wise strategy too if i may say so. i just think they (the FB) and all other contenders should have a chance to get by like all other spell FX. and if not, 1st-timers that had never engaged an FB or didn't have the requisite Knowledge check wouldn't know this i'd wager.
kalstrand 03-16-08, 03:15 PM	And when the BBEG can just as easily throw a Grease spell and eliminate the FB what then. Well the smart FB works in enough martial adept to grab Leaping Dragon Stance that will easily allow him to use his Str based jump skill to jump over that piddly little pool of grease. Actually having just looked at the area of a Grease spell he can prolly just jump it even without the stance.
ninjarabbit 03-16-08, 06:18 PM	I can't stand FBs because it forces the whole party to completely adjust to the FB and it's really just selfishness on the FB's player's part. And honestly the first time another PC attacks me (except in situations of magical domination) is the last time that PC attacks me ..... one way or another.
Clem-Da-Squig 03-16-08, 09:18 PM	Thanks for all the responses guys. I was not aware how touchy a subject this was for some people. Lets just try to keep the back and forth to a minimum. /mini-mod I myself know FBs only through Complete Warrior, so I have never seen one play in game. All the suggestions for controlling the FB are great. So far we've heard a few positive experiences i.e. Indrid, but there have also been a few bad ones. It seems that FBs are only a real threat when some one inexperienced plays one or the group is unprepared.
Clem-Da-Squig 03-16-08, 09:24 PM	Ignore. My computer wears a helmet.
Clem-Da-Squig 03-16-08, 09:29 PM	Ignore. My computer wears a helmet.
Shadowhowler 03-16-08, 10:23 PM	Oh and before you call it pro-berserker metagaming to have Grease prepared, I'm gonna go ahead and call BS on that ahead of time. Grease is one of the most long-term useful and versatile 1st-level arcane spells around, it'd be idiotic not to have that one available, frenzied berserker or not. Oh no, I'll grant you that an arcane caster stands a good chance of having a grease spell at the ready. As I mentioned earlier in the thread... a player in a game I am currently in might end up taking the FB PrC, and in that party *I* am the Wizard... so a lot of the 'control the FB' stuff will likely fall on me. More over, I'm a Conjurer, and I always have a grease at the ready, if not two, becuase I have made excelent use of the spell so far. As you point out, it's an awesome 1st level spell. However, as a 'FB is no problem to deal with, just keep a grease spell at the ready' argument to dealing with the FB in my party, the argument, for me, falls flat. The FIRST time the player goes ape&%*# and comes after the party... if I have NOT used my grease spell already (which is a huge if becuase we will likely be ended a combat and I'll most likely have cast it already at that point) I will almost CERTAINLY use it on the character... and since the character will be unable to even atempt the Balance check, it will work. However, my CHARACTER will not know that the spell will always work, becuase the FB will ALWAYS be unable to use the balance skill. My character knows that he often casts grease, and it is often effective. Sometimes, however, foes resist it and get out. Often the ones that do so are agile... and the character who will be playing the FB is also very agile, with a DEX of 16 I belive. So even tho the spell will work when (and if) I use it... my character will not know this is an everytime for sure fix. My character will not want to take the risk of casting the spell and having the FB slip right through and smash my face in. If I were to METAGAME... I would not worry, becuase I as a player know that the FB will never escape my grease spell... so as long as I keep on in my back pocket, I have nothing to worry about. However, I like to roleplay... and I HATE metagaming. So my character will *NOT* have the info that I, the player have. My character will know only this... grease is a good bet to deal with controling the FB if it gets out of hand... but not a sure thing... and do I wanna risk adventuring with someone who might go nuts and take my head off? Most likely NOT. Metagaming may be normal game behavour for a lot of people, but not for me. THAT is the main problem I have with the FB. If you do not metagame... it is VERY hard to come up with a viable situation where your character would want to adventure with one.
Avatar of Kokusho 03-16-08, 11:07 PM	I played one. One of the most unlikely ones ever made in all of creation, but I played one. The story started out as this: we had just gotten ToB, and started this campaign. Storyline was that my character and another were twins, found at birth by a kind human man. Kicker? We were avariels. Our wings were nonfunctional, but we had all the other traits. At the start of the campaign, we were swordsage/warblades, kicking butt inour own ways. The guy playing my IC brother used two katana, I used a big-ass axe with Monkey Grip. DM, like some others, decides mid-campaign that ToB is bah-roken (different discussion, not starting it here, this is just background) and asks us to revise our characters with nonbroken classes. I had been centered on dealing quite a bit of damage, so I went barbarian/FB. No problems with that selection, DM says. I swap out axe for big-ass greatsword, manage to get utterly ticked off when smacked by a giant, and splattered the giant all over the mountain. Party decides to "leave Sarah alone when she fights; if she did that to them what'll she do to US?!" Sarah (real name Elisiel) became known as the Frilly Berserker. Wearing a pink ruffled dress, hair in pigtails, wings on her back, and the grace of an elf... and every time she fought, her eyes turned blood red and her allies scattered. Now, this character had the inherent problem of low Con due to elf heritage, and even with d12 HD doesn't have a lot of life. However, the party generally comes back from the shadows after seeing her smash the enemies alone, finding her on the ground at -6 or so, exhausted. In short, our party's solution was to run the hell away. The only time party involvement ever came to pass was against sarah's twin brother, and his skill with two weapons (and insane Dex) saved him from death. That's when they found out that being around Sarah during combat is a bad idea. The other two party members were a ranger (bow) and a scout, so they were generally safe due to distance.
kalstrand 03-17-08, 02:54 PM	The only way I can see a Grease spell work is if the FB fails the Reflex save. The area of effect is a 10' square so at most the FB only needs to jump 10' to get out of the area, but if he is smart he will jump to the adjacent square that doesn't have grease in it which will only need a jump of 5'. Even without a running start the DC to long jump 10' is 20 which is not that much for a character focusing on Str and getting a +10 due to Rage and Frenzy being in effect. The fact that they can't make balance checks means nothing if they are not trying to walk through the area.
Sunic_Flames 03-17-08, 06:23 PM	Again I say: Base 18 Will save. Cleric dip for Pride. No berserker PKing nonsense unless you roll four consecutive natural 1s. I think you can make that 5, with an item. 1:160,000 fail rate? Becomes 1:3,200,000 with said item. I forget what it is though... I think an augment crystal vs mind affecting?
Khatoblepas 03-17-08, 07:17 PM	I've found Frenzied Berserker very useful when used for a cohort. I was simultaineously playing a Red Wizard of Thay (Enchantment wasn't dropped), with a Gnoll Frenzied berserker cohort (I know, unoptimised, but there are gnolls in Thay.) with a level in Thayan warrior. Very flavorful, having a Thayan wizard with a pet on an adamantine leash, and then playing the humiliated and subserviant gnoll. There was NO TPK, ever. Nothing even close. Once we ran out of enemies to kill, the wizard would just cast Calm Emotions, and the gnoll would fail the save. Automatically. Uh, needless to say that character's story ended when the wizard got too cocky with an Antimagic Field, after the campaign had finished. I'd say Mister Red Wizard got what he deserved, really. The gnoll didn't really want to go along with him and his killing. That was definitely a positive experience!
wjliii3 03-19-08, 01:32 AM	Ehh, wrong. He can't willingly fail the save because you are now an opponent. Maybe I'm missing something, but since when does it have to be an ally for you to purposely fail a save?
MikeOcherts 03-19-08, 02:39 AM	Zulkir's Favor: At 1st level, a Thayan knight undergoes a long and painful tattooing ritual. A magic tatoo, placed either on the back or the forehead, provides a +2 resistance bonus on Reflex saves. The tattoo also marks the knight as someone loyal to the Red Wizards. The knight automatically fails any saving throw against a mind-affecting spell cast by a Red Wizard. When the tattoo is visible, the knight gains a +2 morale bonus on intimidate checks as an extraordinary ability. That is how he fails the save EVERY time...
1 ton ghost 03-19-08, 11:58 AM	Zulkir's Favor: At 1st level, a Thayan knight undergoes a long and painful tattooing ritual. A magic tatoo, placed either on the back or the forehead, provides a +2 resistance bonus on Reflex saves. The tattoo also marks the knight as someone loyal to the Red Wizards. The knight automatically fails any saving throw against a mind-affecting spell cast by a Red Wizard. When the tattoo is visible, the knight gains a +2 morale bonus on intimidate checks as an extraordinary ability. That is how he fails the save EVERY time... ah...damn! nice call. really, good save. i was thinking, somewhere in the back of my mind when i was last poking through Lords of Darkness (or is it Mag of Faerun) about this. couldn't quite place it, but thought something and the story about the Thayan w/ the Gnoll FB (nice call and RP on that btw) seemed familliar and somewhat feasible. i guess taking 1 PrC in Thayan Knight and then FB is worth the peace of mind in this regard. i mean, turning on a mage, that's, uh, unpleasant... oh, and consciously failing a save to facilitate Calm Emotions: might i just say, "bullsh-t..." that's cheating/metagaming if there ever was an example. it contrary to the whole spirit and RAW of FB to begin w/. if you are having doubts about Frenzy or cannot plan accordingly, don't play one...
Neraagile 03-19-08, 07:01 PM	ah...damn! nice call. really, good save. i was thinking, somewhere in the back of my mind when i was last poking through Lords of Darkness (or is it Mag of Faerun) about this. couldn't quite place it, but thought something and the story about the Thayan w/ the Gnoll FB (nice call and RP on that btw) seemed familliar and somewhat feasible. i guess taking 1 PrC in Thayan Knight and then FB is worth the peace of mind in this regard. i mean, turning on a mage, that's, uh, unpleasant... Next comes the problem when the DM pits you up against a Red Wizard :P
1 ton ghost 03-20-08, 12:16 PM	Next comes the problem when the DM pits you up against a Red Wizard :P if you're a Brb/Thayan Knight/Frenzy Berzerker, it is expressed in the Thayan Knight part that you probably, read, should, have a Red Wizard benefactor of your own. that's their whole function really to defend their arcane charges. 2 peas in a pod. seperate, they do not reach their full potential. together however, they really define teamwork for PCs. anyway, it isn't uncommon for Red Wizards to scrap amongst themselves. being largely evil as a nation in Thay, you'll have that. so, yes, a good way to hamstring another Red Wizard is to nail his knight, specificallly w/ the Enchantment claus mentioned in Zulkir's Favor. don't get caught w/out good justification though, as the Thayan ideal of mercy and justice isn't, uh, what you might expect in other western proto rennaissance nations. however, a DM that specifically pits you against one due to your careful planning, hard earned lvls, etc. to accomodate residual frenzy vs. party fallout to exploit this is petty to say the least. if you happen to be in Thay though and it's a chance encounter, so be it. simply gunning for you cuz' you found a careful strategy, paid (through the nose i might add) for it in lvls and feats, etc. seems unfair and poor DM'ing to say the least... consider though; in Thay in this knight/Wzd dynamic is a hallmark of power, thusly, they would travel in full regalia, tattoos, robes, heraldry, everything. in other lands, where Thay is often reviled, it might be more prudent to "tone things down a bit". that is, how hard would it be to employ various Disguise motifs to spruce up or conceal those telltale markings that label you as a Thayan, or more specifically, a Red Wizard or their tank lackey. to be concise, if you don't appear to be a Thayan Knight, you will not be targeted as one. ie)if they don't know the Know Arcane (maybe History) about Zulkir's Favor then they wouldn't try and exploit that. if you don't look like one either (just another mage and a sellsword), then it stands to reason as well.
bfiggins 03-20-08, 02:30 PM	oh, and consciously failing a save to facilitate Calm Emotions: might i just say, "bullsh-t..." that's cheating/metagaming if there ever was an example. it contrary to the whole spirit and RAW of FB to begin w/. if you are having doubts about Frenzy or cannot plan accordingly, don't play one... Just to flesh out your stance, would you consider this situation cheating/metagaming? The party encounters a 'room of rage', with a magical effect that causes all creatures to rage. The wizard casts Calm Emotions on the Rogue, who willingly fails his save, then proceeds into the room.
1 ton ghost 03-20-08, 02:55 PM	Just to flesh out your stance, would you consider this situation cheating/metagaming? The party encounters a 'room of rage', with a magical effect that causes all creatures to rage. The wizard casts Calm Emotions on the Rogue, who willingly fails his save, then proceeds into the room. ah, a conceptual hypothetical that isn't coming from a firebrand or fanboy. respect. um, given that this isn't "in a combat scene" (scene dependent on important rules/mechanics), yeah, i'd allow, even encourage it. this shows forward thinking, a degree of strategy, teamwork, and a willingness to forward the campaign in a tidy, tactical manner. looks good on all points i suppose. so, nj on that end. i appreciate the effort here. i mean, there's more than one way to "bust a trap". overcoming it through whichever means you employ gets you the XP just as a judicious use of Disable Device might, yes? this room would have an EL, right? junkies fail the Fort Save to push off and get their full high. everyone fails there Will (it is Will, right?) Save for the Wzd's Teleport to leave the dungeon. can't think of too many volunatary fails on a Reflex, but you understand... so, let me pull my foot out of me mouth and refine my previous statment :embarrass (hmm, "embarrassed" doesn't look that embarrassed). anyway, i should argue more carefully (story of my life, right?). in theoreticals like the FB in mid frenzy vs. the party, no, you should not be able to voluntarilly fail a save. too much (read, rules and HP) at stake. that "voluntary fail" is essentially cheating in that you're circumnavigating the main danger of frenzy in an unfair manner. it exists as a balance to the raw power an FB has. it's only fair, otherwise, they'd be wildly popular. you would not consciously wish to fail that Save in frenzy anyway. you should be able to try ie)attemp the Will Save on your own to come down, but you should not be able to forfeit one to facilitate a Calm Emotions. that is, if your party can plan ahead enought to prep that spell in this "what-if" scenario, they can (SHOULD) make other provisions at escape, containment, restraint, etc. of the party FB. having Plan 'A' and no 'B' is as dangerous as the FB him/herself...
Shadowhowler 03-21-08, 11:02 PM	I can see the willingly failing the save vs a calm emotions spell cast by a teamate being viable. I guess it depends on how you look at both the spell, and the frenzy. If you look at the frenzy as an uncontrolable rage that sweeps over the FB and grants it great powers but clouds it's mind... and then when the FB runs out of eneimes to attack, the rage dose not abate and, tho deep inside the FB may not want to... the rage demands more blood. Looked at in this light... then some part of the FB dose not want to attack it's friends... but is forced to. So when an ally casts a spell that the FB feels calming the rage and bringing the FB back to reason... I could see a case being made to allow the FB to willing fail that save. This also goes to how you look at the spell. The FB feels that magic is atempting to effect/persuade it's mind... in that split second where a save is allowed, does the FB know the differance from a calming, soothing spell and a spell that will outright kill it? The answer the this question is key to the way you look at allowing the FB to fail the save willingly. Either way, a convincing argument could be made in either direction.
JaronK 03-21-08, 11:10 PM	Riiiiight. So, without cheese-riddled metagaming... how does the Wizard KNOW that while frenzy the Berzerker is completly unable to even use a DEX based skill, thus making the greese spell and Auto-stop? I guess this is the awesome way to handle the FB if you don't give a crap about metagame cheese. Um, by having a decent knowledge check? It's not like Wizards have problems like that. "My Wizard knows which spells are effective" is not metagaming when Wizards are Int based casters with all knowledge skills as class skills. I'm not sure what Knowledge skill it should be, but it should work. JaronK
Clem-Da-Squig 03-22-08, 12:19 AM	Um, by having a decent knowledge check? It's not like Wizards have problems like that. "My Wizard knows which spells are effective" is not metagaming when Wizards are Int based casters with all knowledge skills as class skills. I'm not sure what Knowledge skill it should be, but it should work. JaronK Knowledge(Prc)?
JaronK 03-22-08, 04:02 AM	Spellcraft, really, which is knowledge of spells. Knowing that grease is great for knocking out Frenzied Berserkers seems like Spellcraft. At least, that's the best I've got. JaronK
Avatar of Kokusho 03-22-08, 11:45 AM	Knowledge (history), which could encompass warfare and tactics...perhaps in the past, in a book the wizard read, a mighty warrior was felled by this exact method.
1 ton ghost 03-22-08, 12:56 PM	oh, the Great Grease Debate of '08 again... i'm still of the opinion that "movement is movement". if they'd swim, climb, waltz to get you, balance seems fair. it's not like we're trying to envision a Ninjitsky w/ cat-like reflexes, just a brute trying to find stable footing enroute to taking your head off. as for voluntarilly failing Will Saves vs. Calm Emotions; big no IMO on that one. checks and balances aren't just for presidents and congress. there's a reason Drow have issues w/ light AND HAVE such killer Darkvision. paladins w/ such great Saves and (Su)'s have their CoC. etc. etc. you can't have it both ways, it is patently unfair to sleaze your way out of the clearly defined "catch" to being an FB in this manner. hence, all the recommendations of planning ahead, getting Iron Will and the like, even the arduous Thayan Knight PrC acquistion. these are valid and fair cuz' you paid for them w/ feats, XP, and alot of work and worry. cheating the system in this respect totally diminishes the whole tragic/danger dynamic of the FB and only fosters more power-gaming as RP just took a backseat to metagaming...(IMO)
kalstrand 03-22-08, 02:36 PM	The FB says it fights to the best of its ability. The only way I would let the FB willingly fail a save vs Calm Emotions is if he willingly fails all Will saves all the time. Anything else is not fighting to the best of his ability.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-22-08, 02:42 PM	The FB says it fights to the best of its ability. The only way I would let the FB willingly fail a save vs Calm Emotions is if he willingly fails all Will saves all the time. Anything else is not fighting to the best of his ability. This would hold more water if most characters didn't willingly fail saves against spells from their friends on a daily basis. Every time you accept a Cure spell you're willingly failing a save.
1 ton ghost 03-22-08, 03:12 PM	This would hold more water if most characters didn't willingly fail saves against spells from their friends on a daily basis. Every time you accept a Cure spell you're willingly failing a save. apples and oranges. that is a completely different capacity and everyone knows that. coloring it in the same light is wildly unfair and in a completely different context IMO. it's not like your insane either when you're in need of a heal. "best of your ability" is pretty open and shut, you know? you're taking frenzy w/out the FRENZY. all you're looking at is the numerical value of Str, attack, etc., you haven't thought it all the way out, dramatically or otherwise. might i just mention oh-so-kindly that this is a ROLE PLAYING game, not Statistics 101 w/ Monsters and $. "keep it real" as they say in the ghetto...;) he wouldn't want to calm down to accept a spell (read, "mental intrusion", or more precisely, an "attack from that robed stranger [not your friend] over there) it's simple really. as a player, you can make the attempt to "come down" on your own w/ your own Will Save (augmented of course). they're not friends/enemies anymore. quite simply, everything is a target. that implies the platform WotC and the CompWarrior designers wanted to set for this chaotic PrC. simply inventing an invisible loophole is contrary to the intended result, and once more, a big "F-U" to the inventors, designers, anyone that's played an FB, and anyone that ever will. FB's frenzy. that's his purpose, just to kill, not to question who or assign humanistic traits. that's unfair and disresepcts the whole spirit of the PrC. unwillingness to accept a fairly easy to see catch in favor of basically cheating, is unfair to the DM, unfair to the campaign, and unfair to the other PCs as it sets a precident that i promise you will snowball. other PCs will want concessions, you put the DM in an awkward position, and of course, he can make enemies function like this too. more harm than good statistically. even if were legal (and it's not), it's a crutch, and a dangerous one at that. you get too reliant on it, someone's gonna' pull it out from underneath you...
Drackthor 03-22-08, 06:00 PM	is the accidental freakout rule just for regular dmg? i know someone out there is gonna argue, "ah, frostbite...you took some non-lethal dmg." i thought it was just normal dmg, but isn't normal fisticuffs non-lethal? that is, a punch to the face would probably set off an FB i'd wager, but a forced march shouldn't, right? I was just reading this and the mental image was hilarious. "AHHHH. THIS MARCHING IS MAKING ME FURIOUUUUUUS."
Jo_Pistachio 03-22-08, 06:11 PM	Meh. Last time the party had to deal with one, I threw a bag of marbles under his feet and walked away.
kalstrand 03-22-08, 08:37 PM	Actually since a Cure spell was brought up I think a FB should roll the Will save on a Cure also. He no longer determines friend from foe therefore if anyone casts a spell on him he should try to resist it.
1 ton ghost 03-22-08, 10:02 PM	I was just reading this and the mental image was hilarious. "AHHHH. THIS MARCHING IS MAKING ME FURIOUUUUUUS." nice...:) so, is the jury still out on that one or what? i get the spirit being if it's not expressed violence, it's cool, right?
Clem-Da-Squig 03-22-08, 11:48 PM	Okay guys thanks for posting but, I'm gonna have to ask we try to keep on topic namely experinces with Frenzied Berzerkers. If you guys want to discusss what is and is not meta-game knowledge or cheesey please make a new thread. /mini-mod Seriously thanks guys I just do not want this thread turning into the "great grease debate of '08" as 1 ton ghost put it.:)
1 ton ghost 03-23-08, 10:18 PM	Okay guys thanks for posting but, I'm gonna have to ask we try to keep on topic namely experinces with Frenzied Berzerkers. If you guys want to discusss what is and is not meta-game knowledge or cheesey please make a new thread. /mini-mod Seriously thanks guys I just do not want this thread turning into the "great grease debate of '08" as 1 ton ghost put it.:) yeaahhh, face time! thanks coach, just glad to be doing my part for the team! seriously, don't wanna' screw your thread, so, yeah, i understand. thought the theoretical "what-ifs" were relevant in terms of mechanical application and "our experiences w/ FBs" at large, but stop if me i'm deviating. not my thread so i'll yield the road if this isn't your overall vision. my overall "XP w/ FBs" has been generally positive in that the RP aspect totally pushed the campaign like a bull. 3 of the other PCs swore by "indrid cold" as well. more than once i had to be the brooding loner, but not for angst's sake, more of a safety measure for my friends given the existential crisis of "my gift (curse) of fury" and duty/loyalty to my party. once we ironed out the creases, weighed "escape plans" after killing my g/f accidentally, and juggling sword/shield vs. 2-handing, things went swimmingly and we were undeafeated, ie)no Raises, TPKs, or other party deaths.
Sunic_Flames 03-24-08, 12:05 PM	I was just reading this and the mental image was hilarious. "AHHHH. THIS MARCHING IS MAKING ME FURIOUUUUUUS." :rofl: I concur.
bfiggins 03-24-08, 01:38 PM	you would not consciously wish to fail that Save in frenzy anyway. you should be able to try ie)attemp the Will Save on your own to come down, but you should not be able to forfeit one to facilitate a Calm Emotions. Good stuff. I'm actually up in the air about it a little, myself. I'm definitely opposed to failing a save mid-frenzy, as that's not fighting to the best of your ability. In the situation I described before, though, the Berzerker is not in the frenzy condition, and in fact could not be frenzied, since you can only frenzy on your turn. I think the question of interpretation is whether the Berzerker rages instantly/reactively upon being hit, or if it's more of a conscious (but uncontrollable) action they take on their turn - "I'm hurt! And I'm angry! AND NOW I HURT YOU!" The scene I'm thinking of is like this. The Berzerker stumbles across an arrow trap, taking a crossbow bolt to the side, and starts fuming and grunting. She's trying to get herself under control - she hopes she doesn't fail that save, because she doesn't want to frenzy. The peaceful character, having seen how the other reacts to pain, wants to calm her down before she loses it. We roll initiative, because initiative represents how quickly a character can analyze a situation and react to it. He reacts to the trap in less time than it takes the berzerker to really register the pain, rushes over, and his presence is an instant calm, like being in a church sermon. "It's okay," he says. "You're with us. You're safe." His words make her realize she's losing control, and she willingly surrenders to the magic, allowing her rage to flow through her harmlessly, and we all breathe a sigh of relief. "Thank you for trusting me," he says. Phrased in that way, I'm not sure it's cheating. I suppose it will depend on our GM, whether he sees this as a clever use of our party's resources, or a cheap way to evade the downside of frenzy.
bfiggins 03-24-08, 01:40 PM	Knowledge(Prc)? Man, sometimes I wish I could make characters with maxed-out Knowledge (SRD).
bfiggins 03-24-08, 01:44 PM	Back on topic, we've been through one fight with our Berzerker thus far, and it went well, although she screwed up a little. She dropped the last two enemies on an AoO, but she made the Will save to end her frenzy at the start of her next turn. But she was still much, much less risky than that Stone Golem that killed me. Don't worry, I got better. Good ol' revolving door of death.
Operation_Shoestring 03-24-08, 05:03 PM	I heard about a frenzied bezerker that was killed by a mage casting calm emotions on him once. That was funny. funny is a positive experience, right?
Viktor_Von_Doom 03-26-08, 12:19 AM	While I see how FB's can be a problem they can be great for RP.
Shadowhowler 03-26-08, 11:29 AM	While I see how FB's can be a problem they can be great for RP. I'd absolutly agree with this... Sadly, there is not a lot of roleplay in the party I'm currently in, so I feat what the introduction of a FB will do. :(
McPoyo 03-27-08, 09:01 AM	I've played in games a couple times with FBs in them. Neither one ever had an issue with the FB flipping out and killing party members. Granted, they were both "evil aligned" campaigns, and a save was only failed twice to end the frenzy. First time, he hadn't hit level 10 yet, and so I just hit him for maximum damage with a scythe on a lucky crit for full PA when he attacked me. He barely survived by ending up at -9. Second time, different campaign, he DID have deathless frenzy, I was the closest individual (other party frontliner) and I proceeded to trip him with a reach weapon, and then just kept tripping him until he ran out of Frenzy. Stand up? Trip again. Try to move? Trip. I had combat reflexes and a build designed to keep people where I wanted them to, so it helped quite a bit, seeing as how we didn't have an dedicated casters in the group. But that was twice, out of more frenzies than I care to count (heavy combat, combat at least once a day, spanning 6-7 months in-game time). It's really not hard to do. Conversely, just have him tank his will save, and have someone with a wand of Calm Emotions handy.
1 ton ghost 03-27-08, 03:59 PM	While I see how FB's can be a problem they can be great for RP. Well said. This, like most divine classes and divine PrC'es, are well defined and fleshed out for you w/out alot of room for interpretation. I mean, this guy/gal, the FB in question, is pretty well rooted in fury, right? Well, that's a leg up to the player. Role-playing, IMO anyway, is vastly more important than mechanics/rules, but we need those rules and mechanical effects to RP. Recommended: There's an optional rule in the DMG concering Role Play XP that we use from time to time. Helps kill the bad players that cannot think beyond the stats on their character sheets. ie)hack n' slash only, no RP, no nothing. It gives them an incentive to RP in a manner to which they are already familiar. A reward system that isn't soley rooted in killing things and looting them. Usually, this works. When it doesn't, a polite dismissal from the table will reach the same end. This has been responsible for more successful and compelling campaigns and side adventures than any treasure, EL, or game mechanic I can think of at my own table and a few friends' (when they DM). Game Affect: They stipulate 50xp/lvl max. So, at 8 lvl, your FB could feasibly net an additional 400xp (most ppl don't get max often) for "best supporting actor" if he really embodies the Hulk, Conan, whatever, in true dramatic form and performs thusly in game. He might deliver a powerful monologue to some refugees, get some good laughs for punching a Grey Render to death, figure a clever way around a trap that doesn't involve defaulting to the rogue's Disable Device, etc. Basically, it's for: -good drama -brilliant insight, not just "beating an enemy" -comedy from time to time, etc. -realistic portrayal -any DM's license to his PCs -etc. That realism, that's the big one. Doing something contrary to player interest but authentic to character embodiment. There are other ways to express this, but that's usually the defining moment in the PC/DM dynamic. Like risking your life in some scary as Hell situations (adventuring), then coming into town to get drunk as Hell and perhaps a little "company". That's realistic, helps w/ the alleged mental stress of combat trauma, being on the road, horrible camping conditions, lonliness, etc. Stormwind is irrelevant in this regard when you must consider willing suspension of disblief and accurate role-playing. Yes, a PC would want better gear/magic/etc. (optimize) if it helps then w/ that whole self-preservation concept we seem to like. Optimizing should not be seperate from dramatic improvisation in this manner and FB, though a potentially dangerous PrC, is a really powerful compromise between the 2, hence it's popularity (IMO).