Hellfire Warlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hellfire Warlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
blade265
12-09-07, 10:56 AM Has anyone any thoughts on the Hellfire Warlocks found here and the Hellbred race both from the Fiendish Codex II.
Thanks
Khellendros54
12-09-07, 08:20 PM The hellfire warlock from the codex seems practically broken. It is really good.

Khellendros
Sinfire Titan
12-09-07, 09:48 PM The hellfire warlock from the codex seems practically broken. It is really good.

Khellendros

Not broken, but very effective.
Khellendros54
12-10-07, 04:01 AM I seem to recall that you get a 6d6 bonus to your eldrich blast at the end of the three level prestige class. Aside from that, you also get an additional ability that allows you to blast anyone who directs a melee attack at you. You take this class as your tenth level and you max it at 13. At this point you will be able to deal 12d6 with your blast, not including any invocations you have. Being able to cast, as a free action, a 12d6 blast at anyone attacking you is basically awesome. To top things off, you also don't lose any levels of 'spells' which makes this as broken as it gets.

So my opinion, if your DM will allow it, take it. Go warlock all the way with three levels of Hellfire.

Khellendros
Tedronai
12-10-07, 04:59 AM Does noone else here see that you're also killing yourself every time you use the class' hallmark ability?
No, it's not broken. It's powerful. It's also extremely dangerous to use. You can deal an extra 6D6 (average 21) damage by (essentially, and in the best case scenario where you aren't taking other con damage) dealing 1/2 your level in damage to yourself. So at 12th level, where this class is at it's best, you're dealing 6 damage to yourself to add 21 damage to your attack, and growing ever closer to instant death. Not a horrible deal, but how long can you keep that up? 1 combat? 2?

Use only with great caution.
blade265
12-10-07, 10:51 AM Does noone else here see that you're also killing yourself every time you use the class' hallmark ability?
No, it's not broken. It's powerful. It's also extremely dangerous to use. You can deal an extra 6D6 (average 21) damage by (essentially, and in the best case scenario where you aren't taking other con damage) dealing 1/2 your level in damage to yourself. So at 12th level, where this class is at it's best, you're dealing 6 damage to yourself to add 21 damage to your attack, and growing ever closer to instant death. Not a horrible deal, but how long can you keep that up? 1 combat? 2?

Use only with great caution.
Where did you you get the 1/2 your level damage to your self, as it states that you take 1 con damage for each use? "Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage."
RobbyPants
12-10-07, 10:53 AM By that level, you'll have enough ranks in Use Magic Device, combined with Deceive Item (take 10 on UMD) to be guaranteed to be able to use a wand. At that point, every three or so blasts can be healed with a wand of Lesser Restoration.

I do like the class a lot for flavor, and I do think the ability is fairly powerful, but there are still lots of other ways to boost the hell out of your Eldritch Blast damage.

If you can get a power point, either by playing a psionic race or by taking the Wild Talent feat, you can use psionic feats. Psionic Shot allows you to expend your psionic focus to add 2d6 damage to a ranged attack. Greater Psionic Focus allows you to add 4d6 damage. Psionic Meditation allows you to refocus as a move action instead of a full-round action. So by 9th level, you can be slinging 5d6 + 4d6 blasts around each round, so long as you're fine only being able to move five feet per round.

Mortal Bane (BoVD) allows you to add 2d6 damage to mortals with your EB five times per day, and you can take that one at first level.

Edit:
If you really want to cheese the Hellfire warlock, use bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) from Unearthed Arcana. The fiendish bloodline is great for flavor, but any major bloodline will work. A major bloodline will force you to give up three levels to "advance" the bloodline instead of a class. The trick comes from the wording that allows you to advance level-based class features (emphasis mine):
A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.
So, effectively, once you've spent your three levels on your bloodline, you can count them toward your level-based abilities for you classes. Thus, your warlock's Eldritch Blast damage will keep advancing, and you'll count as a sixth level hellfire warlock for puposes of your hellfire blast! :eek: +12d6 damage for the cost of one point of Con damage.

I'll take two please! :P
BowenSilverclaw1986
12-10-07, 11:03 AM And top it of with Legacy Champion ;)
Also, a one level dip into Binder can be worthwile for the ability damage healing provided by Naberius.

Just my 2 cp,
Bowen
Akharu
12-10-07, 11:22 AM Where did you you get the 1/2 your level damage to your self, as it states that you take 1 con damage for each use? "Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage."

Every two times you use it you lose a modifer. Every time you lose a modifier you lose your level in hit points. So...every time you use it you are effectively taking 1/2 your level in damage. It's a roundabout way of looking at it, but it is correct.

I have played a hellbred hellfire warlock for some time and agree with most everyone else. It is powerful if what you are wanting to do is more damage, but you are killing yourself to be able to do it. Keep in mind that while it is imperative that you keep wands of restoration on you casting the spell takes 3 rounds. Not exactly something you'll be doing in combat.

At level 12 I have about 75 hit points. In just four rounds of using hellfire blast I have already taken 24 points of damage in con loss. That is not something I can easily get back during combat. This puts me in the dangerous zone of being one-shotted by a lucky crit.
Mindolin
12-10-07, 11:38 AM If you really want to cheese the Hellfire warlock, use bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) from Unearthed Arcana. The fiendish bloodline is great for flavor, but any major bloodline will work. A major bloodline will force you to give up three levels to "advance" the bloodline instead of a class. The trick comes from the wording that allows you to advance level-based class features (emphasis mine):

So, effectively, once you've spent your three levels on your bloodline, you can count them toward your level-based abilities for you classes. Thus, your warlock's Eldritch Blast damage will keep advancing, and you'll count as a sixth level hellfire warlock for puposes of your hellfire blast! :eek: +12d6 damage for the cost of one point of Con damage.

I'll take two please! :P

Except for the fact that you are just guessing at what the Hellfire Warlock would give at that level. There is no evidence that that is what is given, or even that you can be a 6th level Hellfire Warlock.

Hellfire Warlocks are nice, though. I've got a PC about to play one in a Gestalt game, either a Warlock/Hellfire Warlock//Cleric or the same Warlock/HFW//Monk.
LSMFT
12-10-07, 12:02 PM There is no evidence that that is what is given, or even that you can be a 6th level Hellfire Warlock.I think the evidence is actually pretty clear that there is no such thing as a 6th-level hellfire warlock.

I’ve seen this argued before: there is in the three-levels of the Hellfire Warlock, an obvious progression in their damage bonus. So, it isn’t hard to guess what a fourth, fifth, or sixth level would be, if they existed and continued that progression.

But they don’t exist.

Just because a class (like Legacy Champion) or variant (like Bloodlines) grants another level of a class’s abilities doesn’t mean they also create non-existent levels in that class.
Silvercrys
12-10-07, 12:04 PM Actually... It says right in the class: 2d6 per level

not: as shown in table X-X
LSMFT
12-10-07, 12:06 PM Actually... It says right in the class: 2d6 per levelAnd is there a fourth level of that class?
RobbyPants
12-10-07, 12:44 PM Actually... It says right in the class: 2d6 per level

not: as shown in table X-X
Exactly.

And is there a fourth level of that class?
There doesn't need to be. The ability specifically states "A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level." So, if you pick up three more class levels, you gain the benifits.

Even if you complain that the table specifically states +2d6, +4d6, and +6d6, it's still one of those text trumps the table things. The text of the ability (the primary source) clearly states that it increases with each level. Nowhere does it limit it to three levels.
Mindolin
12-10-07, 12:53 PM You can't take three more levels of Hellfire Warlock if there IS no three more levels of Hellfire Warlock. The class ends at level 3.
ChibiQueso
12-10-07, 12:54 PM Except for the simple fact that the class only has three levels.

On the topic of the whole con damage, one feat can negate it. Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest).

Blast away. Also cheese, but much less cheesy than the virtual level thing. More of a mild cheddar when compared to a strong sharp.
Mindolin
12-10-07, 01:01 PM Yeah, but the main thing we're looking for on this is if a Hellfire Warlock is broken on its own. Heck, if we looked at other things, a Fighter can get broken, it takes the best minds of the CO boards, but it can be done.
ChibiQueso
12-10-07, 01:04 PM It's far from broken. If anything a warlock actually trying to deal direct damage (Instead if say...chilling tentacles) Is a midly subpar warlock. As written, with no ability damage reduction cheese or advancement cheese, the Hellfire Warlock is anything but broken.

He does, hower, ooze infernal style.
Mindolin
12-10-07, 01:06 PM Yeah, the main reason the guy in my group decided to become a Hellfire Warlock was because he liked the style, and my group is semi evil anyway, much to my dismay.
Sinfire Titan
12-10-07, 01:07 PM Except for the simple fact that the class only has three levels.

On the topic of the whole con damage, one feat can negate it. Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest).

Blast away. Also cheese, but much less cheesy than the virtual level thing. More of a mild cheddar when compared to a strong sharp.

And yet everyone forgets that both methods of bypassing the Con damage can be negated by multiple spells. For the Soulmeld, Dispel Magic suppresses it just like a magic item. For the Vestige, My favorite is Anti-Magic Ray. Screw the warlock completely!
LSMFT
12-10-07, 01:10 PM If I were, say, a warlock9/Hellfire Warlock 3, could I next level become a warlock9/Hellfire Warlock 4?

No. Because there is no fourth level of Hellfire Warlock.

This isn't a text/tables issue. There are only three-levels to the PrC.

The fact that you do 2d6 per class level does not somehow mean there are as many class-levels as you want there to be.
Mindolin
12-10-07, 01:13 PM Otherwise there would be no one who went back to Warlock. Do it that way and you can +22d6 damage with the other 11 levels to 20 in Hellfire Warlock. Sure, you can make a further progression of Hellfire Warlock, but it would be an Epic class.
CrimsonDeath
12-10-07, 01:14 PM Keep in mind that while it is imperative that you keep wands of restoration on you casting the spell takes 3 rounds. Not exactly something you'll be doing in combat.

How about a Rod of Bodily Restoration? For 3100gp, heal 4 points of damage to any physical ability score three times per day.

On the topic of the whole con damage, one feat can negate it. Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest).

According to CustServ, that "doesn't work". No word on what happens if you try it.
RobbyPants
12-10-07, 01:20 PM Looking at it that way, I think you guys might be right. Perhaps it caps at +6d6. I was never a big fan of bloodlines anyway. :P

Otherwise there would be no one who went back to Warlock. Do it that way and you can +22d6 damage with the other 11 levels to 20 in Hellfire Warlock.
Actually, without the (incorrect) cheese I posted earlier, you can hit 22d6 with the standard +6d6 of the hellfire warlock at 20th level. Here's how:

class levels = 10d6
hellfire blast +6d6
greater psionic shot +4d6
mortal bane +2d6
total = 22d6

Of course, you need to be psionically focused, which might limit your move actions, and you can only apply that last 2d6 against mortals, five times per day, but still, it can be done. ;)

Sure, you can make a further progression of Hellfire Warlock, but it would be an Epic class.
Actually, I thought I read somewhere that 3-level PrCs don't have epic progressions.
ChibiQueso
12-10-07, 01:25 PM How about a Rod of Bodily Restoration? For 3100gp, heal 4 points of damage to any physical ability score three times per day.
That works nicely, also. What type of action?

According to CustServ, that "doesn't work". No word on what happens if you try it.

*Ahem* Thus why I pointed out it was cheese.

Screw the warlock completely!
That kind of happened when he neglected to take levels in a full spellcasting class.
Mindolin
12-10-07, 05:30 PM Add 2d6 damage in there for the Greater Chausible of Fell Power, so 24d6. 22d6 all day long, 24d6 when dealing with Mortals 5/day.

Why does the Strongheart Vest not work? It doesn't prevent the damage, just provides it from another source. CustServ has been wrong before, so forgive me if I don't really care too much for what they say.
blade265
12-10-07, 08:31 PM Thanks everyone. Has anyone tried the Hellbred race with the Hellfire Warlock?
I was thinking along the lines of Hellbred(race) wiz3/Warlock 7/Hellfire Warlock3 as we are playing 13lvl game, then as we go up in lvls adding Eldritch Theurge.
Salla
12-10-07, 08:37 PM Why does the Strongheart Vest not work? It doesn't prevent the damage, just provides it from another source. CustServ has been wrong before, so forgive me if I don't really care too much for what they say.

They never really said. The theory is that because you are 'somehow immune to Con Damage' (which you technically aren't, you're RESISTANT, which is not the same), then you can't power the Hellfire Blast.
Mindolin
12-11-07, 09:06 AM That's just idiotic. You are not immune to it, nor are you really resistant, you're just substituting unborn( or unreincarnated) souls for your life force, that seems like something that Asmodeus would give you the thumbs up for.
forsaken1111
12-11-07, 10:41 PM The strongheart vest provides you resistance to ability damage equal to 1+essentia invested; which is essentially the same as having damage reduction, or energy resistance. It prevents x number of y type of damage, with x being 1+essentia and y being ability damage.

Sure, you aren't 'immune' to con damage, but obviously the intention is that if you don't take the con damage, you don't get the benefit. It would be like getting an ability which deals hp damage to you and applying your damage reduction to it. A more elegant solution in that situation, and one that works within the rules, is having fast healing or something active which heals you over time.

This is easily emulated in the case of the hellfire warlock (as someone already mentioned) by binding Naberius. One of Naberius's abilities heals you of 1 ability damage per round. In this case you are taking the damage as normal, and healing it just before your next action. Its a more elegant solution, and custserv has said the strongheart vest does not work.
teshen
12-12-07, 12:30 AM The strongheart vest provides you resistance to ability damage equal to 1+essentia invested; which is essentially the same as having damage reduction, or energy resistance. It prevents x number of y type of damage, with x being 1+essentia and y being ability damage.And this is the rules as written that allow the strongheart vest to work.

Sure, you aren't 'immune' to con damage, but obviously the intention is that if you don't take the con damage, you don't get the benefit. It would be like getting an ability which deals hp damage to you and applying your damage reduction to it. A more elegant solution in that situation, and one that works within the rules, is having fast healing or something active which heals you over time.And although there are other prcs features, like the blood component ability of the blood magus, that specifically state that it bypasses any damage reduction, the hellfire warlock has no such stipulation. You are interpreting rather than going with the rules...

Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage. Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this granted power, if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.

This is easily emulated in the case of the hellfire warlock (as someone already mentioned) by binding Naberius. One of Naberius's abilities heals you of 1 ability damage per round. In this case you are taking the damage as normal, and healing it just before your next action. Its a more elegant solution, and custserv has said the strongheart vest does not work.In this case, customer service is wrong. They've been so before, and odds are good they will be again.

However, you are correct in as far as a level in binder provides an alternate solution with a higher opportunity cost... one level as opposed to one feat. But then again, I hear it's rather easy to get lots of benefits out of binder as each vestige emulates many features that it would be hard to cobble together otherwise.
forsaken1111
12-12-07, 07:18 AM The fact remains that custserve has declared this doesn't work. Unless you get them to overturn that decision, or convince your DM that you should be able to negate the class's only downside by taking a single feat, it won't work.

As with most other things in dnd, this comes down to what power level your game is being played at, and how your DM feels about it.
zeratulcraft
12-12-07, 08:28 AM Hey dudes, remember how there's no epic advancement of prestige classes not 10 levels long? Yeah, no Hellfire Warlock 4-6 even in epic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
blade265 12-09-07, 10:56 AM	Has anyone any thoughts on the Hellfire Warlocks found here and the Hellbred race both from the Fiendish Codex II. Thanks
Khellendros54 12-09-07, 08:20 PM	The hellfire warlock from the codex seems practically broken. It is really good. Khellendros
Sinfire Titan 12-09-07, 09:48 PM	The hellfire warlock from the codex seems practically broken. It is really good. Khellendros Not broken, but very effective.
Khellendros54 12-10-07, 04:01 AM	I seem to recall that you get a 6d6 bonus to your eldrich blast at the end of the three level prestige class. Aside from that, you also get an additional ability that allows you to blast anyone who directs a melee attack at you. You take this class as your tenth level and you max it at 13. At this point you will be able to deal 12d6 with your blast, not including any invocations you have. Being able to cast, as a free action, a 12d6 blast at anyone attacking you is basically awesome. To top things off, you also don't lose any levels of 'spells' which makes this as broken as it gets. So my opinion, if your DM will allow it, take it. Go warlock all the way with three levels of Hellfire. Khellendros
Tedronai 12-10-07, 04:59 AM	Does noone else here see that you're also killing yourself every time you use the class' hallmark ability? No, it's not broken. It's powerful. It's also extremely dangerous to use. You can deal an extra 6D6 (average 21) damage by (essentially, and in the best case scenario where you aren't taking other con damage) dealing 1/2 your level in damage to yourself. So at 12th level, where this class is at it's best, you're dealing 6 damage to yourself to add 21 damage to your attack, and growing ever closer to instant death. Not a horrible deal, but how long can you keep that up? 1 combat? 2? Use only with great caution.
blade265 12-10-07, 10:51 AM	Does noone else here see that you're also killing yourself every time you use the class' hallmark ability? No, it's not broken. It's powerful. It's also extremely dangerous to use. You can deal an extra 6D6 (average 21) damage by (essentially, and in the best case scenario where you aren't taking other con damage) dealing 1/2 your level in damage to yourself. So at 12th level, where this class is at it's best, you're dealing 6 damage to yourself to add 21 damage to your attack, and growing ever closer to instant death. Not a horrible deal, but how long can you keep that up? 1 combat? 2? Use only with great caution. Where did you you get the 1/2 your level damage to your self, as it states that you take 1 con damage for each use? "Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage."
RobbyPants 12-10-07, 10:53 AM	By that level, you'll have enough ranks in Use Magic Device, combined with Deceive Item (take 10 on UMD) to be guaranteed to be able to use a wand. At that point, every three or so blasts can be healed with a wand of Lesser Restoration. I do like the class a lot for flavor, and I do think the ability is fairly powerful, but there are still lots of other ways to boost the hell out of your Eldritch Blast damage. If you can get a power point, either by playing a psionic race or by taking the Wild Talent feat, you can use psionic feats. Psionic Shot allows you to expend your psionic focus to add 2d6 damage to a ranged attack. Greater Psionic Focus allows you to add 4d6 damage. Psionic Meditation allows you to refocus as a move action instead of a full-round action. So by 9th level, you can be slinging 5d6 + 4d6 blasts around each round, so long as you're fine only being able to move five feet per round. Mortal Bane (BoVD) allows you to add 2d6 damage to mortals with your EB five times per day, and you can take that one at first level. Edit: If you really want to cheese the Hellfire warlock, use bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) from Unearthed Arcana. The fiendish bloodline is great for flavor, but any major bloodline will work. A major bloodline will force you to give up three levels to "advance" the bloodline instead of a class. The trick comes from the wording that allows you to advance level-based class features (emphasis mine): A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters. Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected. If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities. So, effectively, once you've spent your three levels on your bloodline, you can count them toward your level-based abilities for you classes. Thus, your warlock's Eldritch Blast damage will keep advancing, and you'll count as a sixth level hellfire warlock for puposes of your hellfire blast! :eek: +12d6 damage for the cost of one point of Con damage. I'll take two please! :P
BowenSilverclaw1986 12-10-07, 11:03 AM	And top it of with Legacy Champion ;) Also, a one level dip into Binder can be worthwile for the ability damage healing provided by Naberius. Just my 2 cp, Bowen
Akharu 12-10-07, 11:22 AM	Where did you you get the 1/2 your level damage to your self, as it states that you take 1 con damage for each use? "Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage." Every two times you use it you lose a modifer. Every time you lose a modifier you lose your level in hit points. So...every time you use it you are effectively taking 1/2 your level in damage. It's a roundabout way of looking at it, but it is correct. I have played a hellbred hellfire warlock for some time and agree with most everyone else. It is powerful if what you are wanting to do is more damage, but you are killing yourself to be able to do it. Keep in mind that while it is imperative that you keep wands of restoration on you casting the spell takes 3 rounds. Not exactly something you'll be doing in combat. At level 12 I have about 75 hit points. In just four rounds of using hellfire blast I have already taken 24 points of damage in con loss. That is not something I can easily get back during combat. This puts me in the dangerous zone of being one-shotted by a lucky crit.
Mindolin 12-10-07, 11:38 AM	If you really want to cheese the Hellfire warlock, use bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) from Unearthed Arcana. The fiendish bloodline is great for flavor, but any major bloodline will work. A major bloodline will force you to give up three levels to "advance" the bloodline instead of a class. The trick comes from the wording that allows you to advance level-based class features (emphasis mine): So, effectively, once you've spent your three levels on your bloodline, you can count them toward your level-based abilities for you classes. Thus, your warlock's Eldritch Blast damage will keep advancing, and you'll count as a sixth level hellfire warlock for puposes of your hellfire blast! :eek: +12d6 damage for the cost of one point of Con damage. I'll take two please! :P Except for the fact that you are just guessing at what the Hellfire Warlock would give at that level. There is no evidence that that is what is given, or even that you can be a 6th level Hellfire Warlock. Hellfire Warlocks are nice, though. I've got a PC about to play one in a Gestalt game, either a Warlock/Hellfire Warlock//Cleric or the same Warlock/HFW//Monk.
LSMFT 12-10-07, 12:02 PM	There is no evidence that that is what is given, or even that you can be a 6th level Hellfire Warlock.I think the evidence is actually pretty clear that there is no such thing as a 6th-level hellfire warlock. I’ve seen this argued before: there is in the three-levels of the Hellfire Warlock, an obvious progression in their damage bonus. So, it isn’t hard to guess what a fourth, fifth, or sixth level would be, if they existed and continued that progression. But they don’t exist. Just because a class (like Legacy Champion) or variant (like Bloodlines) grants another level of a class’s abilities doesn’t mean they also create non-existent levels in that class.
Silvercrys 12-10-07, 12:04 PM	Actually... It says right in the class: 2d6 per level not: as shown in table X-X
LSMFT 12-10-07, 12:06 PM	Actually... It says right in the class: 2d6 per levelAnd is there a fourth level of that class?
RobbyPants 12-10-07, 12:44 PM	Actually... It says right in the class: 2d6 per level not: as shown in table X-X Exactly. And is there a fourth level of that class? There doesn't need to be. The ability specifically states "A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level." So, if you pick up three more class levels, you gain the benifits. Even if you complain that the table specifically states +2d6, +4d6, and +6d6, it's still one of those text trumps the table things. The text of the ability (the primary source) clearly states that it increases with each level. Nowhere does it limit it to three levels.
Mindolin 12-10-07, 12:53 PM	You can't take three more levels of Hellfire Warlock if there IS no three more levels of Hellfire Warlock. The class ends at level 3.
ChibiQueso 12-10-07, 12:54 PM	Except for the simple fact that the class only has three levels. On the topic of the whole con damage, one feat can negate it. Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest). Blast away. Also cheese, but much less cheesy than the virtual level thing. More of a mild cheddar when compared to a strong sharp.
Mindolin 12-10-07, 01:01 PM	Yeah, but the main thing we're looking for on this is if a Hellfire Warlock is broken on its own. Heck, if we looked at other things, a Fighter can get broken, it takes the best minds of the CO boards, but it can be done.
ChibiQueso 12-10-07, 01:04 PM	It's far from broken. If anything a warlock actually trying to deal direct damage (Instead if say...chilling tentacles) Is a midly subpar warlock. As written, with no ability damage reduction cheese or advancement cheese, the Hellfire Warlock is anything but broken. He does, hower, ooze infernal style.
Mindolin 12-10-07, 01:06 PM	Yeah, the main reason the guy in my group decided to become a Hellfire Warlock was because he liked the style, and my group is semi evil anyway, much to my dismay.
Sinfire Titan 12-10-07, 01:07 PM	Except for the simple fact that the class only has three levels. On the topic of the whole con damage, one feat can negate it. Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest). Blast away. Also cheese, but much less cheesy than the virtual level thing. More of a mild cheddar when compared to a strong sharp. And yet everyone forgets that both methods of bypassing the Con damage can be negated by multiple spells. For the Soulmeld, Dispel Magic suppresses it just like a magic item. For the Vestige, My favorite is Anti-Magic Ray. Screw the warlock completely!
LSMFT 12-10-07, 01:10 PM	If I were, say, a warlock9/Hellfire Warlock 3, could I next level become a warlock9/Hellfire Warlock 4? No. Because there is no fourth level of Hellfire Warlock. This isn't a text/tables issue. There are only three-levels to the PrC. The fact that you do 2d6 per class level does not somehow mean there are as many class-levels as you want there to be.
Mindolin 12-10-07, 01:13 PM	Otherwise there would be no one who went back to Warlock. Do it that way and you can +22d6 damage with the other 11 levels to 20 in Hellfire Warlock. Sure, you can make a further progression of Hellfire Warlock, but it would be an Epic class.
CrimsonDeath 12-10-07, 01:14 PM	Keep in mind that while it is imperative that you keep wands of restoration on you casting the spell takes 3 rounds. Not exactly something you'll be doing in combat. How about a Rod of Bodily Restoration? For 3100gp, heal 4 points of damage to any physical ability score three times per day. On the topic of the whole con damage, one feat can negate it. Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest). According to CustServ, that "doesn't work". No word on what happens if you try it.
RobbyPants 12-10-07, 01:20 PM	Looking at it that way, I think you guys might be right. Perhaps it caps at +6d6. I was never a big fan of bloodlines anyway. :P Otherwise there would be no one who went back to Warlock. Do it that way and you can +22d6 damage with the other 11 levels to 20 in Hellfire Warlock. Actually, without the (incorrect) cheese I posted earlier, you can hit 22d6 with the standard +6d6 of the hellfire warlock at 20th level. Here's how: class levels = 10d6 hellfire blast +6d6 greater psionic shot +4d6 mortal bane +2d6 total = 22d6 Of course, you need to be psionically focused, which might limit your move actions, and you can only apply that last 2d6 against mortals, five times per day, but still, it can be done. ;) Sure, you can make a further progression of Hellfire Warlock, but it would be an Epic class. Actually, I thought I read somewhere that 3-level PrCs don't have epic progressions.
ChibiQueso 12-10-07, 01:25 PM	How about a Rod of Bodily Restoration? For 3100gp, heal 4 points of damage to any physical ability score three times per day. That works nicely, also. What type of action? According to CustServ, that "doesn't work". No word on what happens if you try it. Ahem Thus why I pointed out it was cheese. Screw the warlock completely! That kind of happened when he neglected to take levels in a full spellcasting class.
Mindolin 12-10-07, 05:30 PM	Add 2d6 damage in there for the Greater Chausible of Fell Power, so 24d6. 22d6 all day long, 24d6 when dealing with Mortals 5/day. Why does the Strongheart Vest not work? It doesn't prevent the damage, just provides it from another source. CustServ has been wrong before, so forgive me if I don't really care too much for what they say.
blade265 12-10-07, 08:31 PM	Thanks everyone. Has anyone tried the Hellbred race with the Hellfire Warlock? I was thinking along the lines of Hellbred(race) wiz3/Warlock 7/Hellfire Warlock3 as we are playing 13lvl game, then as we go up in lvls adding Eldritch Theurge.
Salla 12-10-07, 08:37 PM	Why does the Strongheart Vest not work? It doesn't prevent the damage, just provides it from another source. CustServ has been wrong before, so forgive me if I don't really care too much for what they say. They never really said. The theory is that because you are 'somehow immune to Con Damage' (which you technically aren't, you're RESISTANT, which is not the same), then you can't power the Hellfire Blast.
Mindolin 12-11-07, 09:06 AM	That's just idiotic. You are not immune to it, nor are you really resistant, you're just substituting unborn( or unreincarnated) souls for your life force, that seems like something that Asmodeus would give you the thumbs up for.
forsaken1111 12-11-07, 10:41 PM	The strongheart vest provides you resistance to ability damage equal to 1+essentia invested; which is essentially the same as having damage reduction, or energy resistance. It prevents x number of y type of damage, with x being 1+essentia and y being ability damage. Sure, you aren't 'immune' to con damage, but obviously the intention is that if you don't take the con damage, you don't get the benefit. It would be like getting an ability which deals hp damage to you and applying your damage reduction to it. A more elegant solution in that situation, and one that works within the rules, is having fast healing or something active which heals you over time. This is easily emulated in the case of the hellfire warlock (as someone already mentioned) by binding Naberius. One of Naberius's abilities heals you of 1 ability damage per round. In this case you are taking the damage as normal, and healing it just before your next action. Its a more elegant solution, and custserv has said the strongheart vest does not work.
teshen 12-12-07, 12:30 AM	The strongheart vest provides you resistance to ability damage equal to 1+essentia invested; which is essentially the same as having damage reduction, or energy resistance. It prevents x number of y type of damage, with x being 1+essentia and y being ability damage.And this is the rules as written that allow the strongheart vest to work. Sure, you aren't 'immune' to con damage, but obviously the intention is that if you don't take the con damage, you don't get the benefit. It would be like getting an ability which deals hp damage to you and applying your damage reduction to it. A more elegant solution in that situation, and one that works within the rules, is having fast healing or something active which heals you over time.And although there are other prcs features, like the blood component ability of the blood magus, that specifically state that it bypasses any damage reduction, the hellfire warlock has no such stipulation. You are interpreting rather than going with the rules... Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage. Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this granted power, if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability. This is easily emulated in the case of the hellfire warlock (as someone already mentioned) by binding Naberius. One of Naberius's abilities heals you of 1 ability damage per round. In this case you are taking the damage as normal, and healing it just before your next action. Its a more elegant solution, and custserv has said the strongheart vest does not work.In this case, customer service is wrong. They've been so before, and odds are good they will be again. However, you are correct in as far as a level in binder provides an alternate solution with a higher opportunity cost... one level as opposed to one feat. But then again, I hear it's rather easy to get lots of benefits out of binder as each vestige emulates many features that it would be hard to cobble together otherwise.
forsaken1111 12-12-07, 07:18 AM	The fact remains that custserve has declared this doesn't work. Unless you get them to overturn that decision, or convince your DM that you should be able to negate the class's only downside by taking a single feat, it won't work. As with most other things in dnd, this comes down to what power level your game is being played at, and how your DM feels about it.
zeratulcraft 12-12-07, 08:28 AM	Hey dudes, remember how there's no epic advancement of prestige classes not 10 levels long? Yeah, no Hellfire Warlock 4-6 even in epic.