Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prime361 09-12-07, 06:46 AM	So I was on the Optimization Boards a while back and found an interesting thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=892893) so I went to work making a build for it. I posted it and then it hooked me, I want to make it better still, so far I have(using some CO cheese) built a character with casting of a Cleric 17/Wizard 4/Psion 7. I have spent a bit of time looking, but I haven't found anything like I want, a complete list of PrCs with dual casting progression(or all of them). Q1) Has it been done? A1) It has been now I will be adding a set of search entries so that you know what each notation means (i.e. +1 both 10/10 would mean full casting and dual progression). Book Class Name Spell Progress BAB Fort Ref Will DMG Arcane Archer none +1 good good poor DMG Arcane Trickster +1 either 10/10 +1/2 poor good good DMG Archmage +1 arcane 10/10 +1/2 poor poor good DMG Assassin as asssassin +2/3 poor good poor DMG Blackguard as blackguard +1 good poor poor DMG Dragon Disciple see book +2/3 good poor good DMG Duelist none +1 poor good poor DMG Dwarven Defender none +1 poor good average DMG Eldritch Knight 9/10 +1 good poor poor DMG Hierophant none +1/2 good poor good DMG Horizon Walker none +1 good poor poor DMG Loremaster +1 either 10/10 +1/2 poor poor good DMG Mystic Theurge +1 both 10/10 +1/2 poor poor good DMG Red Wizard +1 arcane 10/10 +1/2 poor poor good DMG Sadowdancer none +2/3 poor good poor DMG Thaumaturgist +1 either 10/10 +1/2 poor poor good CAdv Animal Lord none +1 good good poor CAdv Beastmaster none +1 good good poor CAdv Bloodhound none +1 good good poor CAdv Daggerspell Mage 9/10 +2/3 poor good good CAdv Daggerspell Shaper 9/10 +2/3 poor good good CAdv Dread Pirate none +1 poor good poor CAdv Dungeon Delver none +2/3 good good poor CAdv Exemplar none +2/3 poor poor good CAdv Fochlucan Lyrist +1 both 10/10 +1 poor good good CAdv Ghost-Faced Killer none +1 good poor poor CAdv Highland Stalker none +1 good poor poor CAdv Maester 4/5 either +1/2 poor poor good CAdv Master of Many Forms none +2/3 good good poor CAdv Nightsong Enforcer none +1 poor good poor CAdv Nightsong Infiltrator none +2/3 poor good poor CAdv Ollam 3/5 either +1/2 poor poor good CAdv Shadowbane Inquisitor none +1 good poor poor CAdv Shadowbane Stalker 8/10 divine +2/3 poor good good CAdv Shadowmind 7/10 manifest +2/3 poor good good CAdv Spymaster none +2/3 poor good poor CAdv Streetfighter none +1 good poor poor CAdv Tempest none +1 good poor poor CAdv Thief-Acrobat none +2/3 poor good poor CAdv Vigilante as vigilante +2/3 poor good good CAdv Virtuoso 9/10 arcane +1/2 poor poor good CAdv Wild Plains Outrider none +1 good poor poor CArc Acolyte of the Skin 5/10 either +2/3 good poor good CArc ALienist 10/10 either +1/2 poor poor good CArc Argent Savant 4/5 arcanre +1/2 poor poor good CArc Blood Magus 8/10 arcane +1/2 good poor poor CArc Effigy Master 4/5 either +1/2 poor poor good CArc Elemental Savant 9/10 either +1/2 poor poor good CArc Enlightened Fist 8/10 arcane +2/3 poor good good CArc Fatspinner 4/5 either +1/2 poor poor good CArc Geometer 5/5 arcane +1/2 poor poor good CArc Green Star Adept 5/10 arcane +2/3 poor poor good CArc Iot7V 7/7 arcane +1/2 poor poor good CArc Mage ofthe Arcane Order 10/10 arcane +1/2 poor poor good CArc Master Transmogrifist 6/10 arcane +1/2 poor poor good CArc Mindbender 5/10 arcane +1/2 good poor good CArc Seeker of the Song see book +2/3 poor poor good CArc Sublime Chord as Sublime Cord +1/2 poor poor good CArc Suel Arcanamach as Suel Arcanamach +2/3 poor good good CArc Wayfarer Guide 2/3 either +1/2 poor poor good CArc Wild Mage 10/10 arcane +1/2 poor good poor CCha Fist of the Forest none +1 good good poor CCha Forest Reave none +1 poor good poor CCha Holt Warden 10/10 divine +2/3 good poor good CCha Mystic Exemplar 8/10 see book +2/3 poor poor poor CCha Ordained Chmpion 3/5 divine +1 good poor good CCha Paragnostic Apostle 5/5 either +1/2 poor poor good CCha Paragnostic Initiate none +1 good good poor CCha Sanctified One 2/5 either +2/3 good good good CCha Shadowspy 5/10 either +2/3 poor good good CCha shadowstriker none +1 good poor good CCha Squire of Legend 2/3 either +2/3 poor poor poor
goawayugh 09-12-07, 07:44 AM	I remember that thread, I forgot to bookmark it and then forgot about it completle. Great idea, I'll get back to you soon with the start of a list... Yes, I want to see the build. I was going to try something like what you did (with duel progression PrC's), but never got around to it. your text here will look like this: your text here EDIT: Books I went through: CAd CAr CD CM CP CW DMG XPH BoED BoVD RoD RoS RotW Draconomicon Book Class Name Progression BAB Fort Ref Will CAd Fochlucan Lyrist arcane/divine good poor good good CM Eldritch Disciple divine/invocations average good poor good CM Eldritch Theurge arcane/invocations average poor poor good CM Ultimate Magus arcane/arcane poor poor poor good DMG Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm) arcane/divine poor poor poor good RotW Arcane Hierophant arcane/divine average poor poor good XPH Cerebremancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/cerebremancer.htm) arcane/psionic poor poor poor good Ture Necromancer from Libris Mortis is arcane/divine but I don't have that book anymore so I can't tell you more about it.
Amaril 09-12-07, 09:02 AM	Don't forget the Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b).
Prime361 09-12-07, 11:47 PM	Alright Ladies and gentlemen, I present you: Multiple One Level Dip Master(I'll call him M.O.L.D.) Illumian (Neanhoon Sigil) Cloistered Cleric 1/Domain Wizard 1/Ardent 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Geomancer 1/Church Inquisitor 1/Divine Oracle 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Lore Master 1/Rauthar 1/Contemplative 1/Elemental Savant 1/Incantatrix 1/Mystic Wanderer 1/Dragonslayer 1/Wayfarer Guide 1/Runecaster 1/Divine Disciple 1/Psychic Theurge 1/Cerebremancer 1 Many of the chosen classes give a 1 lvl bump to base class but is based on a arcane casting, there is however no restriction that stops me from using it on a divine caster. Classes are taken in the order as shown in the above list. This shows level by level progression of caster level, highest spell cast in the class and the CL of the class 1 Cleric *(1) #bonus domain Knowledge 2 Cleric *(1)/Wizard *(1) #Conjuration domain 3 Cleric *(1)/Wizard *(1)/Ardent 1 4 Cleric *(2)/Wizard *(2)/Ardent 1 5 Cleric *(3)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 1 6 Cleric *(4)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 1 #bonus domain Inquisitor 7 Cleric *(5)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 1 #bonus domain Oracle 8 Cleric *(6)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 1 9 Cleric *(7)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 1 10 Cleric *(8)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 1 11 Cleric *(9)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 1 #bonus domain Travel 12 Cleric *(10)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 1 13 Cleric *(11)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 1 14 Cleric *(12)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 1 15 Cleric *(13)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 5^ 16 Cleric *(14)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 5 17 Cleric *(15)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 5 18 Cleric *(16)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 5 19 Cleric *(17)/Wizard *(3)/Ardent 6 20 Cleric *(17)/Wizard *(4)/Ardent 7 * Highest level spell is bumped a bit higher than it should be thanks to the dirty trick using the Illumian's racial variant of DMM:Heighten with my base turn attempts/day. ^ Manifestation is based on ML not actual level thanks to Practiced Manifester and Ardent's wacky way of using ML. # Bonus domains thanks to the class taken at this level Feats: Flaw: Heighten Flaw: Precosious Apprentice Cleric: (domains: knowledge, , ?), (d), (d) Lvl 1: Able Learner Wiz: Scribe Scroll Lvl 3: Skill Focus(religeon) Lvl 6: Inscribe rune Lore Master:secret (applicable knowledge) Iron Will Lvl 9: Energy Substitution (cold) Lvl 12: Dodge Inca: Bonus Metamagic Lvl 15: Practiced Manifester Lvl 18: I dont HAVE to have Able learner but it makes qualifying easier, also level 18 feat is unused. Making the option of VoP cheese an option as well if you would like to shuffle feats to qualify for classes and pick it up. Also Cloistered Cleric still has to pick both it's domains, probably ones that will give me feats I need and feeing up slots for something I don't need but helps the build. Flaws are being used as you can see, the 2 I picked aren't really important because I am not playing the character. All notes are included incase something doesn't make sense just ask. I think I included any pertinent information. I will start working on a complete list of Prestige Classes tonight and post it into the OP soon as I have a respectable list done. Any input is welcome, All PrCs will be included not just dual casting ones. EDIT: I changed a few things so that I don't have to have DMM anymore, Illumian will allow me to do the same thing twice a day without taking the feat, I do however lose the Human bonus feat, which causes me to break even on feats in the long run. The Illumian version allows me to apply the feats to arcane spells in addition to divine ones however. So, I now also have access to higher level arcane casting which allows me to enter into more demanding PrCs, I think I should be able to squeeze out another few levels of both arcane casting and Ardent Manifestation. Also thanks to the Illumian sigil I qualify for Incantatrix, which I switched for Alienist, since it caused trouble with alignments. The Build is now 100% legal.
goawayugh 09-13-07, 08:48 AM	These are things I couldn't check on because I don't have those books: Mystic Wanderer, Divine Deciple, dragon below domain (I'm assuming this gives you Augment Summoning?). I checked the requirements of all of the classes and most everything checks out. I didn't, however, check on skill point requirements. I'm assuming you worked that out to meet all prereqs? Problems I found: 1) This is, by far, your biggest problem with this build: Many of the chosen classes give a 1 lvl bump to base class but is based on a arcane casting, there is however no restriction that stops me from using it on a divine caster. Classes are taken in the order as shown in the above list. Where did you get this from? If something only ups your arcane casting level, then it only ups your arcane casting level. You can't apply it to a divine class. The restriction is the word "arcane". Even by a very loose interpretation of the rules this would not be allowed. This could potentially be a big problem if it no longer makes you qualify for some PrC's later on. 2) In your list after the class list, you give the CL for Cleric, Wizard, and Psion. You don't have Psion, you have Ardent. 3) The Alienist has an alignment requirement of "any nonlawful". The Church Inquisitor has an alignment requirement of "lawful good or lawful neutral". I supose you could change alignment throughout your career (before taking Alienst), but then that brings up the issue of losing PrC abilities because of no longer meeting prereqs. 4) Loremaster prereq: "Any three metamagic or item creation feats". I'm assuming Incribe Rune is an item creation feat? If not, the Planning domain gives you Extend Spell as a bonus feat. Things I especially like: 1) Using Precocious Apprentice and DMM: Heighten for early qualification into MT and Geomancer is a nice combo. 2) Wow, I never nocited the horrible wording that WotC did on the Ardent (I LOVE loopholes!). I was about to say that Practiced Manifester would have no affect on powers known, but then I re-read the Ardent. Nice find. 3) Using Loremaster's seceret to get Iron Will for qualifying for Dragonslayer. 4) Cloistered Cleric for additional skill points and a free domain which gives you all Knowledge skills as class skills. Possible additions/substitutions: Seeker of the Misty Isle (CD). This has "elf or half-elf" as a requirement, but in the adaptation it says "This prestige class is both race- and deity-specific, but you can file off the serial numbers and use it for any group of elite wanderers". It give you the Travel domain for free, opening up another domain slot with the Contemplative. You would just need this before taking Wayfarer Guide. Fatespinner (CAr). It doesn't have any feat requirements (which I'm sure is one of the hardest things to meet with this build), but the skill requirements are a little heavy. Plus, it doesn't give you anything for free besides an increase in a casting class (it can be divine too, it doesn't say "arcane") Shadowbane Stalker (CAd). It adds to your divine casting, but needs sneak attack +1d6. Shadowmind (CAd). Adds to manifesting. There are another 3 or so from CAr that you can qualify for kind of easily, but they only increase arcane casting, and it seems like you're looking more for divine. Here's another one that you probably already qualify for: Incantrix (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803). It can add to your divine casting (though you do need arcane spells to get in), and it gives you a bonus metamagic feat which might free up another feat slot for you (or help you qualify for another PrC).
Prime361 09-13-07, 12:25 PM	These are things I couldn't check on because I don't have those books: Mystic Wanderer, Divine Deciple, dragon below domain (I'm assuming this gives you Augment Summoning?). I checked the requirements of all of the classes and most everything checks out. I didn't, however, check on skill point requirements. I'm assuming you worked that out to meet all prereqs? Yes and Yes I did, Able Learner made the skills easy as most of the classes only need Know(arcana) and Know(religion) to get in I just didn't include those notes as they are made with strange notation that I didn't want to explain Problems I found: 1) This is, by far, your biggest problem with this build: Many of the chosen classes give a 1 lvl bump to base class but is based on a arcane casting, there is however no restriction that stops me from using it on a divine caster. Classes are taken in the order as shown in the above list. I mean that the requirements of the PrC are arcane casting, but the level bump does not specify 2) In your list after the class list, you give the CL for Cleric, Wizard, and Psion. You don't have Psion, you have Ardent. I meant it as Psionic casting garnered from Ardent, I wiil change that table to reflect it. 3) The Alienist has an alignment requirement of "any nonlawful". The Church Inquisitor has an alignment requirement of "lawful good or lawful neutral". I supose you could change alignment throughout your career (before taking Alienst), but then that brings up the issue of losing PrC abilities because of no longer meeting prereqs. I do suppose that would be a problem now, but I keep thinking of it like palidans and monks who state you lose the abilities gained thru leveling in those classes, PrCs do not state that. There is however a catchall somewhere that says that I would lose it I believe, will need to rethink it a bit I believe. I had 3-4 other classes that I could put in its place, but I chose this one for easy qualification. 4) Loremaster prereq: "Any three metamagic or item creation feats". I'm assuming Incribe Rune is an item creation feat? If not, the Planning domain gives you Extend Spell as a bonus feat. Yes Inscribe Rune is an Item creation feat required for runecaster out of the Magic of Fearun book. Things I especially like: 1) Using Precocious Apprentice and DMM: Heighten for early qualification into MT and Geomancer is a nice combo. 2) Wow, I never nocited the horrible wording that WotC did on the Ardent (I LOVE loopholes!). I was about to say that Practiced Manifester would have no affect on powers known, but then I re-read the Ardent. Nice find. 3) Using Loremaster's seceret to get Iron Will for qualifying for Dragonslayer. 4) Cloistered Cleric for additional skill points and a free domain which gives you all Knowledge skills as class skills. 1 & 2) Those are common loopholes exploited on the Character Optimization board, I was just glad to have them. 3) I liked that myself 4) Well I figured if I was going to be a LOW HP, cloth wearing, all day casting type I should get all the spells I could. Possible additions/substitutions: Seeker of the Misty Isle (CD). This has "elf or half-elf" as a requirement, but in the adaptation it says "This prestige class is both race- and deity-specific, but you can file off the serial numbers and use it for any group of elite wanderers". It give you the Travel domain for free, opening up another domain slot with the Contemplative. You would just need this before taking Wayfarer Guide. I suppose that would be an Idea, but I don't normally like to modify classes to play them, I am sure however that I could get my GM to allow it due to the unusual circumstances of the character. Fatespinner (CAr). It doesn't have any feat requirements (which I'm sure is one of the hardest things to meet with this build), but the skill requirements are a little heavy. Plus, it doesn't give you anything for free besides an increase in a casting class (it can be divine too, it doesn't say "arcane") I do not believe I can qualify for this without many more dual casting progression PrCs, I believe there is a prereq of 5th level arcane spells. P.S. The "Plus, it doesn't give you anything for free besides an increase in a casting class (it can be divine too, it doesn't say "arcane")" is what I am relying on for a lot of the build to work(see quote 2). Shadowbane Stalker (CAd). It adds to your divine casting, but needs sneak attack +1d6. That +1d6 is a killer. Shadowmind (CAd). Adds to manifesting. I looked into this and I think I cannot meet the manifester requirements. 4th level powers is about 9 PP which I can't do without a couple more bumps to Ardent. There are another 3 or so from CAr that you can qualify for kind of easily, but they only increase arcane casting, and it seems like you're looking more for divine. I have all the Divine casting I need at this point, the idea of the character was 9th level Divine spells and as much of everything else I could get. Any dual progression classes that I haven't included in the build would be helpful for fleshing it out and eeking out a few more ardent/wizard levels in place of the single class progression classes P.S. I have started on the Compiled list of PrCs I have gone thru 2 books and noted Name, Location, casting progression, Bab, and saves of each PrC in the book, is there anything else that should be included? I plan on making the Compiled list search able so that you can find a class to meet your needs based on the above, but it had been mentioned that I might include prereqs, I think it would be too bulky that way. Knowing that it does what you want and then looking up the requirements is better than skimming thru requirements to find one that does what you want I think. Any thoughts on it? oh yeah, all of DMG and CArc is done, I will start a new thread I think for the Compiled list though, using this one to gather info till I post en mass the semi finalized list.
goawayugh 09-13-07, 12:41 PM	I edited my last post while you were typing yours, check out the Incantrix. I mean that the requirements of the PrC are arcane casting, but the level bump does not specify Ah, got it.
Prime361 09-13-07, 12:53 PM	I don't have any cheese to get me the last level of wizard to qualify for Incantatrix, If I can find something to give me one more dual progression class I can drop a level somewhere else(since I would get 2 for 1) and switch a level to get another level in wizard, then I can qualify for it, but as it is I cast 9th divine, 2nd arcane, and about 3 powers. Its the lack of loopholes to increase arcane casting that is killing me most. Had they not errata'd DMM I would be able to though.
Prime361 09-18-07, 09:41 PM	Ok I posted all the PrCs in the DMG and the Complete Adventurer, I will continue working on the list, anyone have ideas for formatting it so that it lines up better? I will do a complete list then I will go back and update the list based on any errata. Anything that I should include that isn't already included for the list?
goawayugh 09-19-07, 07:50 AM	If you want your columns to line up, first type it in notepad and get everything lined up there. Then c&p it to your post and then add the tags that you need. To keep it lined up with the spaces you will have to use the tag blah blah blah. Examples: 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 The text in each box is the exact same thing copied & pasted from notepad. Notice how, without the code tags, it took the spaces out. You can hit the quote button to see exactly how I typed it in.
Prime361 09-20-07, 06:38 AM	If you want your columns to line up, first type it in notepad and get everything lined up there. Then c&p it to your post and then add the tags that you need. To keep it lined up with the spaces you will have to use the tag blah blah blah. Examples: 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 The text in each box is the exact same thing copied & pasted from notepad. Notice how, without the code tags, it took the spaces out. You can hit the quote button to see exactly how I typed it in. Sweet, that helps a lot, now it looks a lot more presentable. Crap I have been busy, I should take this free time to go through atleast one more book tonight. I will update before 8am texas time EDIT: Complete Arcane and Champion added, I am thinking about adding HD to it as well, what do you think?
goawayugh 09-20-07, 07:20 AM	Yes, that looks much better. A lot more readable.