Post/Author/DateTime	Post
burnt_to_crisp 01-06-08, 05:54 AM	i've got a great idea for a PrC, and i wanted to get my DM to approve it. the problem is that i have a reputation for making way-overpowered PrCs. that's where you come in. i need help with this, to balance it to perfection. i have a new DM so i have a chance for a clean start. nothing has to stay - it's just the idea i want, i don't have a complete PrC yet. the inner reserve probably goes up way too quickly, metamagic power can be removed - i just wanted something cool other then another metamagic feat for the 5th level, we can remove metamagic feat here - i just wanted to put something there so that it's not completely blank (other then the inner reserve, that is), or we can put more in if you think that it's too many empty levels (maybe in 3rd level? just remember that inner reserve > bonus feats), the requirements can go up if you feel like they should - maybe make it 6 metamagic feats? the Prc goes to balance divine metamagic. that stuff is just not fair... that's the reason the PrC isn't for divine casters. inner reserve + divine metamagic = the tears of a sad, sad DM... (though it doesn't realy come close to divine metamagic + nightstick, but you know..) so here goes nothing: Mage Of The Inner Reserve / Metamagic Specialist (call it what you want) Requirements: Skills: spellcarft 15, knowledge (arcane) 15. Feats: any 5 metamagic feats Special: be able to cast 5th level arcane spells skills: as wizard Hit Die: d4. BAB: as a wizard good save: will full spell progression lvl special ------------ inner reserve 1 | metamagic _______ | 2 2 | _________________ | 4 3 | _________________ | 6 4 | _________________ | 8 5 | metamagic power __ | 10 inner reserve - the Inner Reserve Mage can tune in to his inner power and use it to power his metamagic feats instead of raising their level. the allocated ammount written in the table is the mage's total reserve, which renews each day when preparing spells. when using a metamagic feat (or more then one) on a spell up to a level below his highest level spell (so no persistant time-stops before epic play), the Inner Reserve Mage can "pay" for it with his reserve instead of increasing the level of the spell. he can choose how much of the reserve he wants to pay, he doesn't have to pay for it all. unused inner reserve points are wasted when preparing spells. (edit: ) a MotIR who prepares spells must choose when preparing his spells how to allocate his reserve. metamagic - gain 1 metamagic feat for which you meet the requirements. metamagic power - permanently reduce 1 metamagic feat's cost by 1 level. (as opposed to the incantatrix's reduce all metamagic's cost by 1 level)
WackyOne 01-06-08, 06:14 AM	I think it's a bit too "nova" based - 1/day, he could take a spell of his second highest level, and burn out all the inner reserve on it. How about changing the inner reserve to work on a "per encounter" basis?
burnt_to_crisp 01-06-08, 06:54 AM	I think it's a bit too "nova" based - 1/day, he could take a spell of his second highest level, and burn out all the inner reserve on it. How about changing the inner reserve to work on a "per encounter" basis? and lower the ammount of reserve available? hmm.. the problem is, if you do that it means that out of combat you can use up as much of it as you want, meaning spells that last for the entire day become comepletely and utterly broken. EDIT: not to mention persistant spell becomes much easier to handle. at least with the 1/day based the reserve is nearly depleted after one use. besides, what's wrong with going nova? if you waste the entire reserve on one spell you don't have it anymore for the entire day.
teshen 01-06-08, 01:52 PM	. . . the Prc goes to balance divine metamagic. that stuff is just not fair... that's the reason the PrC isn't for divine casters. inner reserve + divine metamagic = the tears of a sad, sad DM... (though it doesn't realy come close to divine metamagic + nightstick, but you know..) . . . 2 problems with that... 1) WotC has ingested cialis for anything related to divine casters. Pointing out how you want to make one of the most powerful classes in DnD similiar to one of the more powerful classes in DnD with loopholy goodness isn't a great way to begin... 2) There is an opportunity cost for the divine metamagic cheese... it's just not a nearly as large as the benefit as you get out of it. Minus the nightstick, it's not too bad... DMM applies to one feat each time it's taken and you have to have the metamagic feat to apply it to it, if I remember correctly. And divine types usually/mostly only have character feats. There are ways around that, though... I guess I'm trying to say that there isn't really a way to balance this against DMM. But as long as you get that assumption out of the way, you're good. Now, on to random ideas... inner reserve - the Inner Reserve Mage can tune in to his inner power and use it to power his metamagic feats instead of raising their level. the allocated ammount written in the table is the mage's total reserve, which renews each day when preparing spells. when using a metamagic feat (or more then one) on a spell up to a level below his highest level spell (so no persistant time-stops before epic play), the Inner Reserve Mage can "pay" for it with his reserve instead of increasing the level of the spell. he can choose how much of the reserve he wants to pay, he doesn't have to pay for it all. unused inner reserve points are wasted when preparing spells. (edit:)the Inner Reserve Mage still needs to prepeare the spell with metamagic, but can choose at the time of the casting to use the reserve. alternitavly, if he is a spontaneous caster, the casting time of a metamagiced spell is still a full round. Maybe you could take a page out of the factorum's book. Give this guy the ability to spend reserve points to, once a day, mimic the effect of a metamagic feat he doesn't have. I also if you make a wizard prepare these ahead of time, but not use his reserve at the time of preparation, then he has to prepare them in the higher level slot. Also, if you specify that a sorcerer has to take a full round action to cast this way, then you've gimped the ones that can cast faster thanks to feats or alternative class features. I think, because of this, the reserve feature should be spontaneous and simply not change the casting time of the spell. If you are worried about nova's, there is a couple of ways you can deal with this. The first is to only allow one metamagic feat be applied to a single spell with this feature. Another way is to limit the metamagic to modify a spell to the highest level of spell the character could cast + 1. For example, a wizard with this ability who could cast seventh level spells could add a +1 level adjustment to a seventh level spell to make it act effectively as an eighth level spell. Or he could add two adjustments to a sixth level spell or three to a fifth level spell or... etc. Another way to go would be to make the reserve based on wisdom. Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. Both, I think would have a place on a character who uses his force of will to intuitively alter spells... The reserve could be Wisdom modifier + 1/2 PrC level. Since wisdom is usually a bad stat for arcane casters, there is little chance that it would be overpowered. Another way to look at it is to look at how much these things cost... +1 level adjustment enlarge spell extend spell fiery spell nonlethal substitution piercing cold sculpt spell searing spell silent spell still spell transdimensional spell +2 level adjustment empower spell explosive spell split ray +3 level adjustment chain spell delay spell maximize spell repeat spell widen spell +4 level adjustment energy admixture quicken spell twin spell +6 level adjustment persistant spell Variable adjustment fortify spell heighten spell This list is by no means complete. It's just the ones that had an adjustment in the SRD, Complete Arcane, Frostburn, and Sandstorm. Figure out what you want them to be doing at around the level you get them and give them just enough reserve points to do just that. Just a few ideas... take them or leave them. Or eat all you can and sell the rest...
burnt_to_crisp 01-07-08, 01:49 AM	wow, those are some good suggestions :) thank you ^^ 2) There is an opportunity cost for the divine metamagic cheese... it's just not a nearly as large as the benefit as you get out of it. Minus the nightstick, it's not too bad... DMM applies to one feat each time it's taken and you have to have the metamagic feat to apply it to it, if I remember correctly. And divine types usually/mostly only have character feats. There are ways around that, though... I guess I'm trying to say that there isn't really a way to balance this against DMM. But as long as you get that assumption out of the way, you're good. ok, i'll take your word for it (even tho i have a friend who's using DMM (persistant spell) and extend to have 8 buffs on his character at all times. that's 24 levels, by the way. I also if you make a wizard prepare these ahead of time, but not use his reserve at the time of preparation, then he has to prepare them in the higher level slot. Also, if you specify that a sorcerer has to take a full round action to cast this way, then you've gimped the ones that can cast faster thanks to feats or alternative class features. I think, because of this, the reserve feature should be spontaneous and simply not change the casting time of the spell. ok, point taken. i'll change it in the description. Give this guy the ability to spend reserve points to, once a day, mimic the effect of a metamagic feat he doesn't have. that (and the other suggestions you sent in the PM) are realy good ideas. i'll have to think about what goes and what stays, but i'll do that later. If you are worried about nova's, there is a couple of ways you can deal with this. The first is to only allow one metamagic feat be applied to a single spell with this feature. Another way is to limit the metamagic to modify a spell to the highest level of spell the character could cast + 1. For example, a wizard with this ability who could cast seventh level spells could add a +1 level adjustment to a seventh level spell to make it act effectively as an eighth level spell. Or he could add two adjustments to a sixth level spell or three to a fifth level spell or... etc. i was never worried about novas. i can't for the life of me see the problem with them. novas are good in theory, but in actual play they aren't as good as they sound. using a nova means wasting ALOT of your daily resources, leaving you with little for the rest of the day. and in a normal day, there should be more then a few encounters. but if you insist that novas are a problem, then i guess restricting the number of metamagic feats would be a good idea. i don't like restricting the max level of spell you can modify to. (maybe if i start it at +1, and work it up to +3?) anyways, there's no point in using both methods. Another way to go would be to make the reserve based on wisdom. Both, I think would have a place on a character who uses his force of will to intuitively alter spells... The reserve could be Wisdom modifier + 1/2 PrC level. Since wisdom is usually a bad stat for arcane casters, there is little chance that it would be overpowered. i thought about making the reserve based on a stat, but then realised how abuseable that is. making an arcane caster that focuses on 2 stats isn't that hard. Another way to look at it is to look at how much these things cost... Figure out what you want them to be doing at around the level you get them and give them just enough reserve points to do just that. i'm not sure how to go about doing that, i'm afraid :embarrass
burnt_to_crisp 01-07-08, 02:31 AM	here's another take, mostly based on the PM that teshen sent me (thanks again :bow: , hope you don't mind me copying it) here's the original, in case you want reference: Mage of the Inner Reserve Prerequisites Skills: Knowledge (arcane) 12 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks Special: The ability to cast fourth level spells Alignment: Any Hit Die: d4 Class Skills The MotIR's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcane) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier Lv Base F R W Reserve Special Spells 1 +0 0 0 2 2 Mimic Metamagic - 2 +1 0 0 3 4 Powerful reserve +1 arcane spellcasting level 3 +1 1 1 3 6 Two at once +1 arcane spellcasting level 4 +2 1 1 4 8 Efficient reserve +1 arcane spellcasting level 5 +2 1 1 4 10 Efficient mimicry +1 arcane spellcasting level Spells per Day From 2nd level on, when a new Mage of the Inner Reserve level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of MotIR to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an MotIR, she must decide to which class she adds each level of MotIR for the purpose of determining spells per day. Inner Reserve A Mage of the Inner Reserve has cultivated an inner strength with which he can better manipulate arcane energies. A MotIR can use his reserve to power metamagic feats instead of raising their level. As a free action, a MotIR may apply a single metamagic feat he knows to a spell without increasing the casting time. To do so, a MotIR expends a number of reserve points equal to the level adjustment of the metamagic feat. A MotIR may not augment a spell to a higher level than he could actually cast. For example, a MotIR who could cast seventh level spells could not modify a seventh level spell with his inner reserve, since it would effectively be casting an eight level spell or higher. This same character could not add more than one level adjustment to a seventh level spell or two level adjustments to a fifth level spell or three level adjustments to a fourth level spell or etc. If a spellcaster is a spontaneous spellcaster, he can choose to pay part of the level adjustment with his reserve and 'pay' for the rest by casting the spell out of a higher level slot. For example a sorcerer widens a fireball by paying 2 reserve points rather than 3 and then using a fourth level spell slot. A MotIR's reserve refreshes whenever their arcane spells do, usually after 8 hours of rest. The MotIR gains a number of reserve points indicated on the chart. Mimic Metamagic A MotIR can, once per day, use his reserve to cast a spell using a metamagic feat he does not have. To do so, a MotIR declares which metamagic feat he is mimicing and pays the level adjustment + 1 in reserve points. at 4th level you can use this ability 2 times per day Powerful Metamagic A MotIR can now modify spells to the highest level of spell he can cast + 1. So a wizard 12/MotIR 2 who could cast seventh level spells may now use his reserve to augment that seventh level spell to an effectively eighth level spell. He could use his reserve to add a +2 level adjustment to a sixth level spell, a +3 adjustment to a fifth level spell, etc. Two at Once A MotIR may now add two metamagic feats to a spell rather than one. All other limits remain the same. Efficient Reserve When using his inner reserve to metamagic a spell, if the adjustment to the spell costs more than two reserve points, lower the reserve point cost by one. Efficient Mimicry A MotIR has gotten better at twisting strands of arcane energy together. Whenever he mimics a metamagic feat he does not know with the mimic metamagic ability, it's cost is now it's level adjustment rather than it's level adjustment + 1. He can also mimic a metamagic feat he does not know twice a day. It does not have to be the same feat. Mage of the Inner Reserve Prerequisites Skills: Knowledge (arcane) 15 ranks, Spellcraft 15 ranks feats: any 6 metamagic feats Special: The ability to cast fifth level arcane spells Hit Die: d4 Class Skills The MotIR's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcane) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier Lv Base F R W Reserve Special Spells 1 +0 0 0 2 2 inner reserve +1 +1 arcane spellcasting level 2 +1 0 0 3 4 Mimic Metamagic +1 arcane spellcasting level 3 +1 1 1 3 6 inner reserve +2 +1 arcane spellcasting level 4 +2 1 1 4 8 Efficient Reserve +1 arcane spellcasting level 5 +2 1 1 4 10 inner reserve +3 +1 arcane spellcasting level Spells per Day when a new Mage of the Inner Reserve level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of MotIR to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an MotIR, she must decide to which class she adds each level of MotIR for the purpose of determining spells per day. Inner Reserve A Mage of the Inner Reserve has cultivated an inner strength with which he can better manipulate arcane energies. A MotIR can use his reserve to power metamagic feats instead of raising their level. As a free action, a MotIR may apply one metamagic feat or more he knows to a spell without altering the casting time or increasing its effective level. To do so, a MotIR expends a number of reserve points equal to the level adjustment of the metamagic feat. A MotIR may augment a spell up to a one level higher then the highst level spell can cast. at 3rd level A MotIR can modify spells to the highest level of spell he can cast + 2, and at 5th +3. If a spellcaster is a spontaneous spellcaster, he can choose to pay part of the level adjustment with his reserve and 'pay' for the rest by casting the spell out of a higher level slot. A MotIR who prepares spells must choose when preparing his spells how to allocate his reserve For example a sorcerer widens a fireball by paying 2 reserve points rather than 3 and then using a fourth level spell slot. A MotIR's reserve refreshes whenever their arcane spells do, usually after 8 hours of rest. The MotIR gains a number of reserve points indicated on the chart. Mimic Metamagic A MotIR can, once per day, use his reserve to cast a spell using a metamagic feat he does not have. To do so, a MotIR declares which metamagic feat he is mimicing and pays the level adjustment + 1 in reserve points. at 4th level he can use this ability twice per day. Efficient Reserve When using his inner reserve to metamagic a spell, if the adjustment to the spell costs more than two reserve points, lower the reserve point cost by one.
teshen 01-08-08, 04:41 AM	. . . ok, i'll take your word for it (even tho i have a friend who's using DMM (persistant spell) and extend to have 8 buffs on his character at all times. that's 24 levels, by the way. Wow... that's... wow. It takes three feats to get DMM going, extend spell, persist spell, and divine metamagic (persist spell). You can do this at third level if a human cleric, sixth if any other race, but at first level if flaws are allowed. To persist a spell with divine metamagic, it would cost 7 turning attempts per spell. At low levels you've only got 3 + charisma mod turns per day unless you pick up the feat extra turning which adds four more turn attempts per day. I can't remember if you can take extra turning more than once though... At later levels with charisma enhancing items it gets wrong, but early on, I don't see how he's getting that many turn attempts. And yeah, I repeat, with nightsticks, all bets are off... of course, a good caster level (greater) dispel magic could really ruin his day. . . . i was never worried about novas. i can't for the life of me see the problem with them. novas are good in theory, but in actual play they aren't as good as they sound. using a nova means wasting ALOT of your daily resources, leaving you with little for the rest of the day. and in a normal day, there should be more then a few encounters. but if you insist that novas are a problem, then i guess restricting the number of metamagic feats would be a good idea. i don't like restricting the max level of spell you can modify to. (maybe if i start it at +1, and work it up to +3?) anyways, there's no point in using both methods. Well, the problem with this guy, is that he's not exactly a nova even if he loads up one spell. He still has the benefits of the metamagic and spells and features he's gotten from prcs before you factor in his reserve ability. He can lay down some cool metamagic enhanced spells before he uses his reserve. But yeah, limiting the class in multiple ways is probably not necessary. And you are right about the stat problem. It really doesn't scale well with level at all. . . . hope you don't mind me copying it. . . Not at all. I'm glad I could be of assistance. :) And I like your idea, but I do have one thing to point out... I'm not asking you to change it, I'm just asking to think about what this could mean... You can get into this class at twelth level as an arcane caster. All your feats will have been spent on metamagic or taken levels in prcs that grant additional metamagic. At that point you can cast sixth level spells. After all five levels you can cast 9th level spells... and you can add three more effective levels to those 9th level spells, thus creating a 12th level effect, like an empowered, extended time stop. That's pretty potent... I like the idea of limiting the prc a little more and making it available at lower levels, but a lot of that is my desire to see it played... most of the games I get to participate in cap out at around level 14 tops. I could also see a version that stretches over ten levels... but hey, what can I say... I'm a caster fan. :mage: