Post/Author/DateTime	Post
satyre 06-28-07, 10:41 AM	I'm a nerd (surprise!), and I usually try to create myself in all the roleplaying systems I have. For D&D I am hands down a Bard. This being confirmed by my friends who came to the same conclusion without any input from myself. No, I don't play bards very often. Ok, enough background. I'm trying to figure out what prestige class I would choose for myself. I was instantly drawn to the Horizon Walker. The whole bonuses for having spent time in different areas, very much my thing. Picks up on the whole gypsy feel, which is much of the reason I'm a Bard to begin with. The thing is, Horizon Walker seems to be an underpowered class. Now, this is really just a character that I'm creating for fun, but I don't feel right giving myself a useless PrC. I can add flavor to whichever one I pick, the mechanics need to be solid. Again, this leads to a deeper problem I have with Prestige Classes that go for flare over function. Basically, I'm wanting to know if there is a different Prestige Class out there that will give me that wandering bohemian type feel that I'm looking for. Please state which book it's in if you can. Thanks! (So far I'm leaning towards Exemplar or Royal Explorer... I dunno.)
The_Shaman 06-28-07, 10:52 AM	Well, it's more of a ranger thing. Mechanically, I think most people who put it in their builds (not many, really :) ) like some of the features it gets, usually the Dimension door every few rounds. It could use a stunted casting progression a la blackguard (diff spell though), mind you. Now, something like that but for bards... Does any of your group have FR books? The harper classes are interesting, and quite few of them are designed for bards. One of them - master harper - is actually available in an online article.
satyre 06-28-07, 11:43 AM	Hmm... I have a Forgotten Realms book, but it doesn't have Master Harper in it, just Harper Scout. I found the content on the WotC site and it looks pretty much like what I am looking for. I was trying to avoid joining up with some sort of society, but I read up on the Harpers (I'm not too familiar with FR) and they seemed fairly relaxed. Unless anyone can think of better I'd probably go with Master Harper. edit: I agree about Horizon Walker, it needs some sort of spell progression... or pluses to existing caster level... or something!
Traverse 06-28-07, 02:45 PM	First time I saw the Gatecrasher prestige class, I was drawn to it. That or the Planeshifter, which is a Gatecrasher with spell advancement. But the flavor, oh. But classes are from Manual of the Planes, and both draw you into some fun planar traveling.
Dark1ord 06-28-07, 03:24 PM	The thing is, Horizon Walker seems to be an underpowered class. a decent skill list, nice skill bonuses, and nifty stuff from (planar) terrain mastery... really, it can be quite good. e.g. desert, underground, shifting and cavernous... 6, maybe 7 levels, I'd say. or just 1 (desert), to avoid fatigue (which can be quite sweet in certain builds)...
Jaxgaret 06-28-07, 09:28 PM	a decent skill list, nice skill bonuses, and nifty stuff from (planar) terrain mastery... really, it can be quite good. e.g. desert, underground, shifting and cavernous... 6, maybe 7 levels, I'd say. or just 1 (desert), to avoid fatigue (which can be quite sweet in certain builds)... I agree. It's not in and of itself underpowered; the fact that skills are completely superseded by spells in terms of raw power is what makes the class underpowered. After all, it gets the equivalent of a very good feat (+4 to one skill is better than Skill Focus, which [in theory] should itself be balanced to other feats) plus the attack bonus vs. a creature type every level. That *should* be an excellent class. The class does shine in a few niche campaigns, particularly Planar campaigns or ones that revolve around a single terrain are good for a 1-level dip. Also, sneaky Rogues can benefit greatly from 2 levels garnering +4/+4 to Hide/MS. Also, there is room allowed in the Other (Planar) category for the DM and player to "power up" the class to their liking, as you can create virtually anything you want to fit in. Making these benefits very strong makes the class backloaded, and can be a good idea to make it competitive with spellcasting classes.
Dark1ord 06-29-07, 07:15 AM	The class does shine in a few niche campaigns, particularly Planar campaigns or ones that revolve around a single terrain are good for a 1-level dip. Also, sneaky Rogues can benefit greatly from 2 levels garnering +4/+4 to Hide/MS. it does require endurance and 8 ranks in knowledge geography... not everyone cares to spend that, or comes easily by it - without multiclassing.
The_Shaman 06-29-07, 07:45 AM	It does, for a ranger. 6+int skills for a class skill prerequisite and endurance as a bonus feat? Meh, it could be worse :D . As for harpers being an organization... Well, they are rather loose. AFAIK most of their cells, and likely members are basically left to their own devices - it leads to a relatively ineffective, but very resilient organization. I suppose this means that anyone who wants to travel around and is willing to oppose their enemies can be, essentially, a honorary member if s/he agrees to pass information around and help members in need.
deviknyte 06-29-07, 08:43 AM	The only thing I can think of right now is Shinto Warrior, p79 of the Rokugan Campaign. It's not a WoTC book and it's 3.0 but I'll keep a look out for other classes.
satyre 06-29-07, 09:12 AM	I agree. It's not in and of itself underpowered; the fact that skills are completely superseded by spells in terms of raw power is what makes the class underpowered.... That is more or less what I meant. Actually, I think a Barbarian could benefit a bit by dipping one level for the desert terrain mastery. Though, the Knowledge Geography might a little difficult for them... Ranger/Barbarian? *shrugs* Is the Master Harper class in a book at all? Or just online? Also which book, exactly, has the other Harper classes?
Jaxgaret 06-29-07, 02:46 PM	it does require endurance and 8 ranks in knowledge geography... not everyone cares to spend that, or comes easily by it - without multiclassing. Endurance is not the worst feat in the world. It is more useful in a low-magic campaign, and infinitely more useful for a solo or loner character. It is generally pretty low on the power scale, I'll agree with that. Knowledge checks can always come in handy, if the DM is willing to give out information for a good check.
Empiro 06-29-07, 02:53 PM	The class isn't very good because it's one of those early PrCs that _didn't_ make you blatantly better than the base class.
NeueRegel 06-29-07, 03:13 PM	I'd have made great use of the horizon walker class, had they included one thing: Some sort of class sustained ability to shift planes not dependant on another character or magic item, and more of a proof-positive way that they can survive there. (For instance, on a fire plane, there is not just heat, there is poisonous gas, etc.) Or at least there used to be, that may have changed in 3.5, my extraplanar experience was all in AD&D. Neue
Jaxgaret 06-29-07, 03:31 PM	Also, there is room allowed in the Other (Planar) category for the DM and player to "power up" the class to their liking, as you can create virtually anything you want to fit in. Making these benefits very strong makes the class backloaded, and can be a good idea to make it competitive with spellcasting classes. I'd have made great use of the horizon walker class, had they included one thing: Some sort of class sustained ability to shift planes not dependant on another character or magic item, and more of a proof-positive way that they can survive there. (For instance, on a fire plane, there is not just heat, there is poisonous gas, etc.) Or at least there used to be, that may have changed in 3.5, my extraplanar experience was all in AD&D. Neue It is already included in the class. The DM and the player can work together to create any campaign-appropriate Planar abilities they'd like.
Dark1ord 06-29-07, 04:51 PM	Endurance is not the worst feat in the world. It is more useful in a low-magic campaign, and infinitely more useful for a solo or loner character. It is generally pretty low on the power scale, I'll agree with that. Knowledge checks can always come in handy, if the DM is willing to give out information for a good check. all I was saying was that not all builds can easily afford those things - those things are as good as they are, I'm not saying anything about that. ;) plus, you could just see them as steps on the way to dimension door every 1d4 rounds all day long, and forget about what they are on their own. ;)
The_Shaman 06-29-07, 06:00 PM	That is more or less what I meant. Actually, I think a Barbarian could benefit a bit by dipping one level for the desert terrain mastery. Though, the Knowledge Geography might a little difficult for them... Ranger/Barbarian? *shrugs* Is the Master Harper class in a book at all? Or just online? Also which book, exactly, has the other Harper classes? Dervishes and Snowflake Wardance bards can use the mastery, too :) As for the harpers, PGTF has the 3.5 Harper Agent and Harper Paragon (Exalted, beats me why). Magic of Faerun has the 3.0 Harper priest and Harper mage. Master harper, afaik, is online material.
satyre 09-20-07, 08:44 AM	If we were to drop down to a Rogue's BAB, what would be appropriate as far as adding "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class"? Every level? Every other level? This is NOT an attempt to fix this class, I'd just was wondering what the balanced trade-off would be. If I wanted a more magical Horizon Walker.
Jaxgaret 09-20-07, 03:26 PM	If we were to drop down to a Rogue's BAB, what would be appropriate as far as adding "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class"? Every level? Every other level? This is NOT an attempt to fix this class, I'd just was wondering what the balanced trade-off would be. If I wanted a more magical Horizon Walker. Good question. I would say that 5/10 progression - +1 every even level - sounds about right to balance the class.
The_Shaman 09-20-07, 05:20 PM	Possibly even more, depending on whether you add additional prerequisites and whether you keep all the features. The Master of Yuirwood PrC has a slightly similar feel - due to the menhir circle thing, for example - and has full progression of an existing spellcasting class. It is considered quite powerful, but not broken - so a magical, medium-BAB HW can easily be in the 5-7 casting level range.
Jaxgaret 09-21-07, 04:48 PM	Possibly even more, depending on whether you add additional prerequisites and whether you keep all the features. I was assuming identical prerequisites and retention of all class features for my recommendation.
Sagetim 09-21-07, 08:40 PM	Hmm... I have a Forgotten Realms book, but it doesn't have Master Harper in it, just Harper Scout. I found the content on the WotC site and it looks pretty much like what I am looking for. I was trying to avoid joining up with some sort of society, but I read up on the Harpers (I'm not too familiar with FR) and they seemed fairly relaxed. Unless anyone can think of better I'd probably go with Master Harper. edit: I agree about Horizon Walker, it needs some sort of spell progression... or pluses to existing caster level... or something! Horizon walker is there for fluff I would think. There's a few prc's that are pretty useless build wise, but very useful if your doing RP.
natzero 09-22-07, 12:13 AM	i personally consider a few levels in horizon walker for my kobold chars. generally scouts and rangers. kobold endurance counts as endurance and is better. the immune to fatigue at 1st level is nice. also darkvision increase to 120 ft at 2nd level. even if you stopped there you get those bonuses +2 bab 8+ 2(int mod) skills. and 3 to fort. but all 10 levels gives 20 fire/cold resis tremor sense 30 ft. the dimensional door so its all based on whether or not you are willing to play it. best thing ever tho :) a commoner can qualify for it at 5th level :) :) :) able learner feat and endurance
Jaxgaret 09-22-07, 07:05 AM	I agree. It's not in and of itself underpowered; the fact that skills are completely superseded by spells in terms of raw power is what makes the class underpowered. After all, it gets the equivalent of a very good feat (+4 to one skill is better than Skill Focus, which [in theory] should itself be balanced to other feats) plus the attack bonus vs. a creature type every level. That *should* be an excellent class. The class does shine in a few niche campaigns, particularly Planar campaigns or ones that revolve around a single terrain are good for a 1-level dip. Also, sneaky Rogues can benefit greatly from 2 levels garnering +4/+4 to Hide/MS. Also, there is room allowed in the Other (Planar) category for the DM and player to "power up" the class to their liking, as you can create virtually anything you want to fit in. Making these benefits very strong makes the class backloaded, and can be a good idea to make it competitive with spellcasting classes. Allow me to quote myself from earlier in this very thread.