I Must Be The Stupiest Person Ever [Archive] - Wizards Community

I Must Be The Stupiest Person Ever [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
neo-Aeris
04-11-07, 01:17 AM Hello. I'm a, um, I'm a newbie. Yeah. So, um,... NO, NOT THE POINTY STICKS, NOT AGAIN! *Twitch* *spasm*

*ahem* Sorry, I'm a paranoid newbie.

Anyway, I have just recently started playing DnD, because, you know, I wasn't enough of a nerd already. It's been great fun, and my group and DM are really nice.

I'm playing a human rogue (not rouge), and my DM lended me the "Song and Silence" book to see if there was anything that gave me some inspiration. Well, the PrC's looked nice, but I can't tell the difference between "Master of AWESOME" and "Pile of Poo".

The class that caught my attention was "Outlaw of the Crimson Road", mostly because it worked well with my character's D4r|< a|\|D my5t3|210u5 p4s7!!1one! LE1K, OMG!! (Oops, sorry, slipped into n00b there for a second. Translation for those with a IQ higher than purple: "dark and mysterios past. Goodness!") I've been lurking on the boards to see if there just happened to be any such mention of this class, but no such luck. (With my luck, it's the most popular post, or even a sticky I missed).

I have a couple of questions.

1. I plan to level in rogue until I can take levels in "Outlaw of the Crimson Road" (which should be around level 7 or 10. I am currently level 5). Does this seem reasonable? Or is OotCR (as I'm calling it) a "filler" PrC, and hence weak? (I know, this should probably asked in the CharOp boards...)

2. One of the required feats for OotCR is "Expertise". Now, I must be the stupidest person ever because I have no idea what/where this is. I looked in the PHB, and I couldn't find it, and I looked in the Song and Silence book and I couldn't find it. But it must be somewhere, right?! *Probably rolled a 1 on her Search checks... like she does when looking for traps... yeah, GREAT rogue*

3. Does anyone have a particualarly favorite rogue-ish PrC to which he or she would like to direct me? (OMG GRAMMAR). I'd be much obliged.

Everytime you help a newbie, an angel gets its wings.
Kazeofwinds
04-11-07, 01:27 AM 1.If I remember correctly, Outlaw of the Crimson Road's ambush damage is nearly worthless and/or impossible to trigger(If its just sneak attack, or I'm getting the class feature name mixed up, ignore me). It probably isnt that great of a class, and chances are you're better off sticking with rogue, but if you arent concerned with powergaming, take whatever you like.

2. Expertise is "Combat Expertise", In 3.0 supplements its just referred to as Expertise.

3. Rogue is probably one of the best straight-to-20 classes, and there isnt really a need to specialize unless you want to. That said, I've always preferred Assassin for PrCing my rogue (Most DM's toss out the alignment requirement, in my experience, if you ask.) Some people also like Shadow Dancer, but I never thought it was worth wasting feats on dodge and mobility. Generally with a rogue PrC you're looking for more sneak dice+ spiffy abilities, unless you have some kind of odd concept in mind.
Krusk
04-11-07, 01:59 AM The class in a 3.0 class, you probably can't find mention of it because most newer books are 3.5. 3.0 is almost 100% useable in 3.5 except for a few minor changes. in this case expertise is actually combat expertise.

the class itself isnt amazingly strong but it is cool.

favorite rogue prestige? i normally do rogue 20, or in the case of my half orc rogue, menacing brute from races of destiny.

in looking at this class

ambush is basically a bad form of sneak attack.
life on the road is decent
evasion is always good, but you probably already have it.
fugitives luck is good.
leadership is a pain in the butt
improved evasion, will be very handy
ranged disarm might be cool
ledgend is almost useless
cheat death looks interesting.

basically you should probably stick rogue if you want power, but the class doesnt look awful.
Jaxgaret
04-11-07, 03:01 AM Just took a look at the Outlaw of the Crimson Road PrC, never really went over it before.

IMHO it is much better as a Bard PrC than as a Rogue PrC, for several reasons.

1) Ambush doesn't really enhance Sneak Attack all that much, as it only works in the surprise round. It does give the Bard a single excellent damaging attack if they get the drop on someone (note that Ambush actually has one advantage over Sneak Attack; enemies do not have to be considered either flat-footed or flanked for Ambush to work, thus Uncanny Dodge or similar abilities does nothing against Ambush).

2) Rogues get Evasion and Improved Evasion anyway. Bards don't. So those abilities aren't wasted on a Bard as they would be on a Rogue. And they're excellent abilities for a Bard to have.

3) OotCR just cries out "face of the party" to me, what with the bonus to Charisma skills. C'mon, what Bard doesn't want to be known as a Legend!

Also, look in Dragon Magazine #346 for ways to improve your Leadership ability.

One more thing: make sure you have a good way to get skill ranks in the Ride skill, which is one of the requirements to get into OotCR. It's not a class skill for Rogues or Bards. There is a variant Rogue called a Wilderness Rogue, available here: Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariant WildernessRogue). My suggestion would be to play a Human WildernessRogue1/Bard7, then go into OotCR.

If you feel like this helped you or you have any more questions, feel free to PM me. I'm curious as to how this character turns out.

Good gaming neo-Aeris :)
teshen
04-11-07, 11:56 AM There is a variant Rogue called a Wilderness Rogue, available here: Wilderness Rogue. My suggestion would be to play a Human WildernessRogue1/Bard7, then go into OotCR.
And to pull this little number off (if you really want to...) look in the Players Handbook II for rules on retraining your character... either that or see if your storyteller has psionics and pay one to remake your mind with the power psychic reformation (I think that's the name...)

And tone down the exaggeration a bit :) ... stupiest? Not hardly. Just new... now the fellow who asked a sudden strike/sneak attack question when there was already a post on the same page... that's pretty... unobservant. :rolleyes:
Lotus Crane
04-11-07, 01:28 PM If you want to be a simple yet effective "outlaw," instead of taking that somewhat underwhelming PrC, try taking 3 levels of Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) and the Daring Outlaw feat (Complete Scoundrel). For an even simpler build, forget about swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw; just stay straight rogue and take Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel) as early as possible.
teshen
04-11-07, 01:47 PM If you want to be a simple yet effective "outlaw," instead of taking that somewhat underwhelming PrC, try taking 3 levels of Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) and the Daring Outlaw feat (Complete Scoundrel). For an even simpler build, forget about swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw; just stay straight rogue and take Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel) as early as possible.
Agree. Both options are very cool... I can't believe I forgot those. :doh:
neo-Aeris
04-11-07, 02:02 PM Thanks for all the help! I feel all warm and fuzzy inside, like I just ate a puppy.

The base class variants look very interesting, and the Wilderness Rogue is particularly helpful. Unfortunately, my DM doesn't allow psionics, and I don't own the PH2, so I don't know how I'd manage it in this campaign. But the build Jaxgaret suggested (Wilderness Rogue 1/ Brd 7/ OotCR ...) seems handy, so I'll keep it in my pocket for another day (or until I accidently kill off my current character). Besides, the party does need a rogue, and I don't think they'd be too happy if I switched on them. I'll see how the OotCR turns out with a pure rogue (it should at least make the roleplaying interesting).

Thanks again and I can't wait to play this out!

(Oh, COMBAT Expertise, okay, right.)

EDIT: Ah, more suggestions after I posted! Of course! Thanks for the tips, Lotus, unfortunately I currently don't own anything except the core books for 3.5e. My DM might, so I'll ask him if I could could look 'em over, and, heck, maybe I'll just go out and buy them today. I can't wait to look them over!
The_Shaman
04-12-07, 07:01 PM Well, psionics should not be necessary, just ask if you can redo the character (say a cleric cast a miracle spell on you, or some such.) At any rate, rogue is passable by itself, although I have a soft spot for PrCing or multiclassing in general.

Outlaw otCR is cool, but many of the abilities leave me less than impressed. I believe that with a level or two of ranger (favored enemy for whatever group you intend to visit, i.e. humans) you could do a good job. Sneak attack - or even sudden strike - is so much better than ambush it's scary. As for how many rogue levels you could use - I think a second rogue level always helps (evasion), and up to 4 rogue levels (uncanny dodge, and you don't lose another point of BAB) can't hurt you much, anyway. I wish there was a daring outlaw-esque feat for rangers. Now that would have been great, I've often wished to substitute the weapon style for Sudden strike or Sneak attack progression.
Spiritwalker
04-13-07, 04:17 AM Hey, there, neo-aeris - always good to see new players coming to the great game. I'm running a camapign with nothing but new players, so don't fear sharp sticks...just thrown dice for bad roleplaying, and thrown sweeties for good roleplaying.

Rogue is definately one of the best straight 20 classes i've come across, though i suggest doing a search on these boards for a post called Ultimate Adaption. The Rogue on there is just so...shiny.

However, if you're really looking for some good rogue options, look at complete Scoundrel for some lovely options (Master of Masks being a personal favourite) and some sneaky gadgets (Rod of Ropes and Sleave Blades).

Oh, and there is a nice ranger/rogue class out there The_Shaman - The Scout from complete Adventurer. In my opinion as a ranged combatant, Skirmish is a lot better an option for a sneaky class than even Sneak Attack (Hides behind the nearest wall to avoid all the thrown debris).

Hope that helps
The_Shaman
04-13-07, 07:46 AM I just don't like the mechanics of skirmish. How on earth does keeping yourself moving increase the power of your ranged attacks? Scouts are okay mechanically, Scout/rangers with swift hunter are very nice, it's just that I sometimes want a stalker ranger, not someone who's running all over the place all the time.
Jaxgaret
04-13-07, 11:06 AM I just don't like the mechanics of skirmish. How on earth does keeping yourself moving increase the power of your ranged attacks? Scouts are okay mechanically, Scout/rangers with swift hunter are very nice, it's just that I sometimes want a stalker ranger, not someone who's running all over the place all the time.

The way I've translated Skirmish into real-world mechanics is that the Scout is looking for a weakness in the enemy's defenses, similar to how Sneak Attack works, and they can't just stand there and stare at the enemy to do so, they need to throw the battlefield askew at least slightly by shifting position to make the enemy combatant show a weak spot.

It may not be perfect, but it keeps me from being like "Skirmish wtf?"

Also, if you can get your Scout to take 10' steps instead of 5' steps (via a DC40 Tumble check or one Monk level + Sparring Dummy of the Master or another method), in my campaign I would rule that taking a 5' step out and back to the original spot counts as a 10' step.
AllWillFall2Me
04-14-07, 03:14 PM As a brief question, I long since lost my Song & Silence book, but this is one of the few things I remember from it. Now we've had a lot of people say it's not that good a PrC, so why don't we consider trying to pick it up? There's quite a bit of Class making talent on these boards, I'm certain a balanced, fun, "Bandit" PrC could be made.
Just a thought, if anyone has any free time.
Ideas: Ambush sounds interesting, so let's try this: It has a sneak attack/sudden strike/skirmish progression, but more and more levels in the class give greater bonuses during a Surprise round.
1st level: bonus to attack
3rd: bonus to damage dice (Ie +2 to each die of sneak attack)
5th:Automatic intimidate check, if successful, demoralize all opponents
7th: Full-round surprise round.
9th:Haste.

(And now we see why I don't recommend I do it, as that probably looked ridiculous.)
benstundze
04-14-07, 03:49 PM Hello. I'm a, um, I'm a newbie. Yeah. So, um,... NO, NOT THE POINTY STICKS, NOT AGAIN! *Twitch* *spasm*

*ahem* Sorry, I'm a paranoid newbie.

Anyway, I have just recently started playing DnD, because, you know, I wasn't enough of a nerd already. It's been great fun, and my group and DM are really nice.

I'm playing a human rogue (not rouge), and my DM lended me the "Song and Silence" book to see if there was anything that gave me some inspiration. Well, the PrC's looked nice, but I can't tell the difference between "Master of AWESOME" and "Pile of Poo".

The class that caught my attention was "Outlaw of the Crimson Road", mostly because it worked well with my character's D4r|< a|\|D my5t3|210u5 p4s7!!1one! LE1K, OMG!! (Oops, sorry, slipped into n00b there for a second. Translation for those with a IQ higher than purple: "dark and mysterios past. Goodness!") I've been lurking on the boards to see if there just happened to be any such mention of this class, but no such luck. (With my luck, it's the most popular post, or even a sticky I missed).

I have a couple of questions.

1. I plan to level in rogue until I can take levels in "Outlaw of the Crimson Road" (which should be around level 7 or 10. I am currently level 5). Does this seem reasonable? Or is OotCR (as I'm calling it) a "filler" PrC, and hence weak? (I know, this should probably asked in the CharOp boards...)

2. One of the required feats for OotCR is "Expertise". Now, I must be the stupidest person ever because I have no idea what/where this is. I looked in the PHB, and I couldn't find it, and I looked in the Song and Silence book and I couldn't find it. But it must be somewhere, right?! *Probably rolled a 1 on her Search checks... like she does when looking for traps... yeah, GREAT rogue*

3. Does anyone have a particualarly favorite rogue-ish PrC to which he or she would like to direct me? (OMG GRAMMAR). I'd be much obliged.

Everytime you help a newbie, an angel gets its wings.
your funny, i hope to read many more of your posts :)
ben
FreAkOuTRG
04-14-07, 08:51 PM Awwwe... I like seeing newbies misspell rogue...

Honestly? I have nothing to contribute to this thread. I'm with Ben though.
neo-Aeris
04-15-07, 08:45 PM your funny, i hope to read many more of your posts :)
ben

Awwwe... I like seeing newbies misspell rogue...

Honestly? I have nothing to contribute to this thread. I'm with Ben though.

Well, thank you! I, uh, I don't know what to say. Should I make a joke? I probably should.

"Pun Pun's tears cure cancer. Too bad Pun Pun has never cried."

(Pun Pun is the Chuck Norris of the DND world, right?[/offtopic])

EDIT:Oh, yeah, and thanks for the others that gave extra help! You know, the sole purpose of this thread.
Enigmous
04-15-07, 08:49 PM I'd go for assassin PrC because death attack > ambush.
ChaoticGood
04-16-07, 12:13 AM Well, thank you! I, uh, I don't know what to say. Should I make a joke? I probably should.

"Pun Pun's tears cure cancer. Too bad Pun Pun has never cried."

(Pun Pun is the Chuck Norris of the DND world, right?[/offtopic])

Anyone who can make that joke and understand it is officially promoted from "D&D newb" to "D&D player." Congratulations! :D

I have to agree that the Outlaw of the Crimson Road, while a great "flavor" class, was too convoluted to be of much use as a PrC. The abilities just didn't "hang" together, unless of course you just wanted to name your character Robin Hood and be done with it. (The Leadership part was especially egregious in this regard; I'm pretty sure the existence of the Merry Men was the only reason the class got this feature.)

That said, you could multi-class to Ranger for a level or two, and request to be allowed to take a particular group (such as a cult or government that the DM plans to use as recurring villains) as your favored enemy rather than a monster type. You'll maintain most of your sneak attack progression, avoid "wasting" levels on class features you're already getting from your Rogue class (evasion and imp. evasion), and the bonuses vs. the Sheriff of Nottingham's men... uh... I mean... your favored enemy... adds a new dimension to combat, esp. if you take the Improved Distraction feat and feint in combat a lot.
Redja_the_Foolish
04-16-07, 02:00 AM I do not think that you are the most stupid person ever.
It is wise to ask a question you don't know the answer to.
Spiritwalker
04-16-07, 02:57 AM I'd agree with the ranger option. Favoured enemy against a particular sub-group of humans would work for a bandit, esspecially if you do say something like the (town name) malitia, or a certain group of merchant gaurds (as in affiliation of guards, not three or four guards of a particular caravan).

As a prc, though I could also see you playing something like a de-fluffed version of the Avenging executioner from complete scoundrel. Lots of bandit-y abilities, and gain the ability to strike fear into the hearts of your enemies.
FreAkOuTRG
04-16-07, 03:47 PM Anyone who can make that joke and understand it is officially promoted from "D&D newb" to "D&D player." Congratulations! :D

QFT

If you like rogues, check out Complete Adventurer. Nightsong Enforcers/Infiltrators are pretty good.
The_Shaman
04-16-07, 03:57 PM Seconded, they are fun. Not quite bandit material, but can easily adapt for a more versatile Robin Hood-esque adventurer type.
benstundze
04-18-07, 09:19 PM Anyone who can make that joke and understand it is officially promoted from "D&D newb" to "D&D player." Congratulations! :D
I disagree, all it takes to make that joke is...vary minor info.
All it really takes is to type normal :).
ben
Dead_Weasel
04-19-07, 02:57 AM I've been lurking on the boards to see if there just happened to be any such mention of this class, but no such luck. (With my luck, it's the most popular post, or even a sticky I missed).

First of all, even ATTEMPTING to FIND something before posting means you're not stupid, or a noob. To search for something, you've got to go to Google and search [site:boards1.wizards.com ...] where ... is whatever you're after.

As for tOotCR, even though I've never looked at it closely before, I've got to agree with Jaxgaret; it seems to me to be far more useful to Bards than Rogues.
While I love Complete Scoundrel a little bit, I hate it a lot too.
I'm more partial to Complete Adventurer for sneaky/skilled rogue PrCs and Complete Warrior for hurty rogue PrCs. If you want to strike a balance between the two, I'd recommend Dread Commando from Heroes of Battle for my favorite, the sneaky+hurty rogue.
That said, not everyone has access to piles upon piles of books; Rogue 20 is a reliable career path.
war_m0nger
04-19-07, 10:56 AM I'm going to play a rogue type in an upcoming campaign and I'm seriously considering Rogue/Sword Sage (from Tome of Battle) with particular attention to the "Shadow Hand". You might want to look at this combo, I think it'll be very cool.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
neo-Aeris 04-11-07, 01:17 AM	Hello. I'm a, um, I'm a newbie. Yeah. So, um,... NO, NOT THE POINTY STICKS, NOT AGAIN! Twitch spasm ahem Sorry, I'm a paranoid newbie. Anyway, I have just recently started playing DnD, because, you know, I wasn't enough of a nerd already. It's been great fun, and my group and DM are really nice. I'm playing a human rogue (not rouge), and my DM lended me the "Song and Silence" book to see if there was anything that gave me some inspiration. Well, the PrC's looked nice, but I can't tell the difference between "Master of AWESOME" and "Pile of Poo". The class that caught my attention was "Outlaw of the Crimson Road", mostly because it worked well with my character's D4r\|< a\|\\|D my5t3\|210u5 p4s7!!1one! LE1K, OMG!! (Oops, sorry, slipped into n00b there for a second. Translation for those with a IQ higher than purple: "dark and mysterios past. Goodness!") I've been lurking on the boards to see if there just happened to be any such mention of this class, but no such luck. (With my luck, it's the most popular post, or even a sticky I missed). I have a couple of questions. 1. I plan to level in rogue until I can take levels in "Outlaw of the Crimson Road" (which should be around level 7 or 10. I am currently level 5). Does this seem reasonable? Or is OotCR (as I'm calling it) a "filler" PrC, and hence weak? (I know, this should probably asked in the CharOp boards...) 2. One of the required feats for OotCR is "Expertise". Now, I must be the stupidest person ever because I have no idea what/where this is. I looked in the PHB, and I couldn't find it, and I looked in the Song and Silence book and I couldn't find it. But it must be somewhere, right?! Probably rolled a 1 on her Search checks... like she does when looking for traps... yeah, GREAT rogue 3. Does anyone have a particualarly favorite rogue-ish PrC to which he or she would like to direct me? (OMG GRAMMAR). I'd be much obliged. Everytime you help a newbie, an angel gets its wings.
Kazeofwinds 04-11-07, 01:27 AM	1.If I remember correctly, Outlaw of the Crimson Road's ambush damage is nearly worthless and/or impossible to trigger(If its just sneak attack, or I'm getting the class feature name mixed up, ignore me). It probably isnt that great of a class, and chances are you're better off sticking with rogue, but if you arent concerned with powergaming, take whatever you like. 2. Expertise is "Combat Expertise", In 3.0 supplements its just referred to as Expertise. 3. Rogue is probably one of the best straight-to-20 classes, and there isnt really a need to specialize unless you want to. That said, I've always preferred Assassin for PrCing my rogue (Most DM's toss out the alignment requirement, in my experience, if you ask.) Some people also like Shadow Dancer, but I never thought it was worth wasting feats on dodge and mobility. Generally with a rogue PrC you're looking for more sneak dice+ spiffy abilities, unless you have some kind of odd concept in mind.
Krusk 04-11-07, 01:59 AM	The class in a 3.0 class, you probably can't find mention of it because most newer books are 3.5. 3.0 is almost 100% useable in 3.5 except for a few minor changes. in this case expertise is actually combat expertise. the class itself isnt amazingly strong but it is cool. favorite rogue prestige? i normally do rogue 20, or in the case of my half orc rogue, menacing brute from races of destiny. in looking at this class ambush is basically a bad form of sneak attack. life on the road is decent evasion is always good, but you probably already have it. fugitives luck is good. leadership is a pain in the butt improved evasion, will be very handy ranged disarm might be cool ledgend is almost useless cheat death looks interesting. basically you should probably stick rogue if you want power, but the class doesnt look awful.
Jaxgaret 04-11-07, 03:01 AM	Just took a look at the Outlaw of the Crimson Road PrC, never really went over it before. IMHO it is much better as a Bard PrC than as a Rogue PrC, for several reasons. 1) Ambush doesn't really enhance Sneak Attack all that much, as it only works in the surprise round. It does give the Bard a single excellent damaging attack if they get the drop on someone (note that Ambush actually has one advantage over Sneak Attack; enemies do not have to be considered either flat-footed or flanked for Ambush to work, thus Uncanny Dodge or similar abilities does nothing against Ambush). 2) Rogues get Evasion and Improved Evasion anyway. Bards don't. So those abilities aren't wasted on a Bard as they would be on a Rogue. And they're excellent abilities for a Bard to have. 3) OotCR just cries out "face of the party" to me, what with the bonus to Charisma skills. C'mon, what Bard doesn't want to be known as a Legend! Also, look in Dragon Magazine #346 for ways to improve your Leadership ability. One more thing: make sure you have a good way to get skill ranks in the Ride skill, which is one of the requirements to get into OotCR. It's not a class skill for Rogues or Bards. There is a variant Rogue called a Wilderness Rogue, available here: Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariant WildernessRogue). My suggestion would be to play a Human WildernessRogue1/Bard7, then go into OotCR. If you feel like this helped you or you have any more questions, feel free to PM me. I'm curious as to how this character turns out. Good gaming neo-Aeris :)
teshen 04-11-07, 11:56 AM	There is a variant Rogue called a Wilderness Rogue, available here: Wilderness Rogue. My suggestion would be to play a Human WildernessRogue1/Bard7, then go into OotCR. And to pull this little number off (if you really want to...) look in the Players Handbook II for rules on retraining your character... either that or see if your storyteller has psionics and pay one to remake your mind with the power psychic reformation (I think that's the name...) And tone down the exaggeration a bit :) ... stupiest? Not hardly. Just new... now the fellow who asked a sudden strike/sneak attack question when there was already a post on the same page... that's pretty... unobservant. :rolleyes:
Lotus Crane 04-11-07, 01:28 PM	If you want to be a simple yet effective "outlaw," instead of taking that somewhat underwhelming PrC, try taking 3 levels of Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) and the Daring Outlaw feat (Complete Scoundrel). For an even simpler build, forget about swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw; just stay straight rogue and take Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel) as early as possible.
teshen 04-11-07, 01:47 PM	If you want to be a simple yet effective "outlaw," instead of taking that somewhat underwhelming PrC, try taking 3 levels of Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) and the Daring Outlaw feat (Complete Scoundrel). For an even simpler build, forget about swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw; just stay straight rogue and take Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel) as early as possible. Agree. Both options are very cool... I can't believe I forgot those. :doh:
neo-Aeris 04-11-07, 02:02 PM	Thanks for all the help! I feel all warm and fuzzy inside, like I just ate a puppy. The base class variants look very interesting, and the Wilderness Rogue is particularly helpful. Unfortunately, my DM doesn't allow psionics, and I don't own the PH2, so I don't know how I'd manage it in this campaign. But the build Jaxgaret suggested (Wilderness Rogue 1/ Brd 7/ OotCR ...) seems handy, so I'll keep it in my pocket for another day (or until I accidently kill off my current character). Besides, the party does need a rogue, and I don't think they'd be too happy if I switched on them. I'll see how the OotCR turns out with a pure rogue (it should at least make the roleplaying interesting). Thanks again and I can't wait to play this out! (Oh, COMBAT Expertise, okay, right.) EDIT: Ah, more suggestions after I posted! Of course! Thanks for the tips, Lotus, unfortunately I currently don't own anything except the core books for 3.5e. My DM might, so I'll ask him if I could could look 'em over, and, heck, maybe I'll just go out and buy them today. I can't wait to look them over!
The_Shaman 04-12-07, 07:01 PM	Well, psionics should not be necessary, just ask if you can redo the character (say a cleric cast a miracle spell on you, or some such.) At any rate, rogue is passable by itself, although I have a soft spot for PrCing or multiclassing in general. Outlaw otCR is cool, but many of the abilities leave me less than impressed. I believe that with a level or two of ranger (favored enemy for whatever group you intend to visit, i.e. humans) you could do a good job. Sneak attack - or even sudden strike - is so much better than ambush it's scary. As for how many rogue levels you could use - I think a second rogue level always helps (evasion), and up to 4 rogue levels (uncanny dodge, and you don't lose another point of BAB) can't hurt you much, anyway. I wish there was a daring outlaw-esque feat for rangers. Now that would have been great, I've often wished to substitute the weapon style for Sudden strike or Sneak attack progression.
Spiritwalker 04-13-07, 04:17 AM	Hey, there, neo-aeris - always good to see new players coming to the great game. I'm running a camapign with nothing but new players, so don't fear sharp sticks...just thrown dice for bad roleplaying, and thrown sweeties for good roleplaying. Rogue is definately one of the best straight 20 classes i've come across, though i suggest doing a search on these boards for a post called Ultimate Adaption. The Rogue on there is just so...shiny. However, if you're really looking for some good rogue options, look at complete Scoundrel for some lovely options (Master of Masks being a personal favourite) and some sneaky gadgets (Rod of Ropes and Sleave Blades). Oh, and there is a nice ranger/rogue class out there The_Shaman - The Scout from complete Adventurer. In my opinion as a ranged combatant, Skirmish is a lot better an option for a sneaky class than even Sneak Attack (Hides behind the nearest wall to avoid all the thrown debris). Hope that helps
The_Shaman 04-13-07, 07:46 AM	I just don't like the mechanics of skirmish. How on earth does keeping yourself moving increase the power of your ranged attacks? Scouts are okay mechanically, Scout/rangers with swift hunter are very nice, it's just that I sometimes want a stalker ranger, not someone who's running all over the place all the time.
Jaxgaret 04-13-07, 11:06 AM	I just don't like the mechanics of skirmish. How on earth does keeping yourself moving increase the power of your ranged attacks? Scouts are okay mechanically, Scout/rangers with swift hunter are very nice, it's just that I sometimes want a stalker ranger, not someone who's running all over the place all the time. The way I've translated Skirmish into real-world mechanics is that the Scout is looking for a weakness in the enemy's defenses, similar to how Sneak Attack works, and they can't just stand there and stare at the enemy to do so, they need to throw the battlefield askew at least slightly by shifting position to make the enemy combatant show a weak spot. It may not be perfect, but it keeps me from being like "Skirmish wtf?" Also, if you can get your Scout to take 10' steps instead of 5' steps (via a DC40 Tumble check or one Monk level + Sparring Dummy of the Master or another method), in my campaign I would rule that taking a 5' step out and back to the original spot counts as a 10' step.
AllWillFall2Me 04-14-07, 03:14 PM	As a brief question, I long since lost my Song & Silence book, but this is one of the few things I remember from it. Now we've had a lot of people say it's not that good a PrC, so why don't we consider trying to pick it up? There's quite a bit of Class making talent on these boards, I'm certain a balanced, fun, "Bandit" PrC could be made. Just a thought, if anyone has any free time. Ideas: Ambush sounds interesting, so let's try this: It has a sneak attack/sudden strike/skirmish progression, but more and more levels in the class give greater bonuses during a Surprise round. 1st level: bonus to attack 3rd: bonus to damage dice (Ie +2 to each die of sneak attack) 5th:Automatic intimidate check, if successful, demoralize all opponents 7th: Full-round surprise round. 9th:Haste. (And now we see why I don't recommend I do it, as that probably looked ridiculous.)
benstundze 04-14-07, 03:49 PM	Hello. I'm a, um, I'm a newbie. Yeah. So, um,... NO, NOT THE POINTY STICKS, NOT AGAIN! Twitch spasm ahem Sorry, I'm a paranoid newbie. Anyway, I have just recently started playing DnD, because, you know, I wasn't enough of a nerd already. It's been great fun, and my group and DM are really nice. I'm playing a human rogue (not rouge), and my DM lended me the "Song and Silence" book to see if there was anything that gave me some inspiration. Well, the PrC's looked nice, but I can't tell the difference between "Master of AWESOME" and "Pile of Poo". The class that caught my attention was "Outlaw of the Crimson Road", mostly because it worked well with my character's D4r\|< a\|\\|D my5t3\|210u5 p4s7!!1one! LE1K, OMG!! (Oops, sorry, slipped into n00b there for a second. Translation for those with a IQ higher than purple: "dark and mysterios past. Goodness!") I've been lurking on the boards to see if there just happened to be any such mention of this class, but no such luck. (With my luck, it's the most popular post, or even a sticky I missed). I have a couple of questions. 1. I plan to level in rogue until I can take levels in "Outlaw of the Crimson Road" (which should be around level 7 or 10. I am currently level 5). Does this seem reasonable? Or is OotCR (as I'm calling it) a "filler" PrC, and hence weak? (I know, this should probably asked in the CharOp boards...) 2. One of the required feats for OotCR is "Expertise". Now, I must be the stupidest person ever because I have no idea what/where this is. I looked in the PHB, and I couldn't find it, and I looked in the Song and Silence book and I couldn't find it. But it must be somewhere, right?! Probably rolled a 1 on her Search checks... like she does when looking for traps... yeah, GREAT rogue 3. Does anyone have a particualarly favorite rogue-ish PrC to which he or she would like to direct me? (OMG GRAMMAR). I'd be much obliged. Everytime you help a newbie, an angel gets its wings. your funny, i hope to read many more of your posts :) ben
FreAkOuTRG 04-14-07, 08:51 PM	Awwwe... I like seeing newbies misspell rogue... Honestly? I have nothing to contribute to this thread. I'm with Ben though.
neo-Aeris 04-15-07, 08:45 PM	your funny, i hope to read many more of your posts :) ben Awwwe... I like seeing newbies misspell rogue... Honestly? I have nothing to contribute to this thread. I'm with Ben though. Well, thank you! I, uh, I don't know what to say. Should I make a joke? I probably should. "Pun Pun's tears cure cancer. Too bad Pun Pun has never cried." (Pun Pun is the Chuck Norris of the DND world, right?[/offtopic]) EDIT:Oh, yeah, and thanks for the others that gave extra help! You know, the sole purpose of this thread.
Enigmous 04-15-07, 08:49 PM	I'd go for assassin PrC because death attack > ambush.
ChaoticGood 04-16-07, 12:13 AM	Well, thank you! I, uh, I don't know what to say. Should I make a joke? I probably should. "Pun Pun's tears cure cancer. Too bad Pun Pun has never cried." (Pun Pun is the Chuck Norris of the DND world, right?[/offtopic]) Anyone who can make that joke and understand it is officially promoted from "D&D newb" to "D&D player." Congratulations! :D I have to agree that the Outlaw of the Crimson Road, while a great "flavor" class, was too convoluted to be of much use as a PrC. The abilities just didn't "hang" together, unless of course you just wanted to name your character Robin Hood and be done with it. (The Leadership part was especially egregious in this regard; I'm pretty sure the existence of the Merry Men was the only reason the class got this feature.) That said, you could multi-class to Ranger for a level or two, and request to be allowed to take a particular group (such as a cult or government that the DM plans to use as recurring villains) as your favored enemy rather than a monster type. You'll maintain most of your sneak attack progression, avoid "wasting" levels on class features you're already getting from your Rogue class (evasion and imp. evasion), and the bonuses vs. the Sheriff of Nottingham's men... uh... I mean... your favored enemy... adds a new dimension to combat, esp. if you take the Improved Distraction feat and feint in combat a lot.
Redja_the_Foolish 04-16-07, 02:00 AM	I do not think that you are the most stupid person ever. It is wise to ask a question you don't know the answer to.
Spiritwalker 04-16-07, 02:57 AM	I'd agree with the ranger option. Favoured enemy against a particular sub-group of humans would work for a bandit, esspecially if you do say something like the (town name) malitia, or a certain group of merchant gaurds (as in affiliation of guards, not three or four guards of a particular caravan). As a prc, though I could also see you playing something like a de-fluffed version of the Avenging executioner from complete scoundrel. Lots of bandit-y abilities, and gain the ability to strike fear into the hearts of your enemies.
FreAkOuTRG 04-16-07, 03:47 PM	Anyone who can make that joke and understand it is officially promoted from "D&D newb" to "D&D player." Congratulations! :D QFT If you like rogues, check out Complete Adventurer. Nightsong Enforcers/Infiltrators are pretty good.
The_Shaman 04-16-07, 03:57 PM	Seconded, they are fun. Not quite bandit material, but can easily adapt for a more versatile Robin Hood-esque adventurer type.
benstundze 04-18-07, 09:19 PM	Anyone who can make that joke and understand it is officially promoted from "D&D newb" to "D&D player." Congratulations! :D I disagree, all it takes to make that joke is...vary minor info. All it really takes is to type normal :). ben
Dead_Weasel 04-19-07, 02:57 AM	I've been lurking on the boards to see if there just happened to be any such mention of this class, but no such luck. (With my luck, it's the most popular post, or even a sticky I missed). First of all, even ATTEMPTING to FIND something before posting means you're not stupid, or a noob. To search for something, you've got to go to Google and search [site:boards1.wizards.com ...] where ... is whatever you're after. As for tOotCR, even though I've never looked at it closely before, I've got to agree with Jaxgaret; it seems to me to be far more useful to Bards than Rogues. While I love Complete Scoundrel a little bit, I hate it a lot too. I'm more partial to Complete Adventurer for sneaky/skilled rogue PrCs and Complete Warrior for hurty rogue PrCs. If you want to strike a balance between the two, I'd recommend Dread Commando from Heroes of Battle for my favorite, the sneaky+hurty rogue. That said, not everyone has access to piles upon piles of books; Rogue 20 is a reliable career path.
war_m0nger 04-19-07, 10:56 AM	I'm going to play a rogue type in an upcoming campaign and I'm seriously considering Rogue/Sword Sage (from Tome of Battle) with particular attention to the "Shadow Hand". You might want to look at this combo, I think it'll be very cool.