i need opinions on this build. [Archive] - Wizards Community

i need opinions on this build. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zillah
04-04-08, 12:41 AM 2 rogue/5 druid/3 Master of Many Forms/10 Dagger spell shaper.
Does this sound horridly weird?
2 rogue for evasion/sneak attack, 5 druid for the spellcasting/wildshape.
3 MoMF for the Giant/Large/monstrous humanoid ability
and the rest in dagger spellshaper for the niffty stuff +the spell progression which would get me 7th level spells.

So, you can be a dagger spellshaper with 2 daggers, shift, still be able to cast spells after shifted because of the MoMF ability, shape into a cave troll for example, cast the spells for your daggers, charge said opponent, pounce him, and apply sneak attack to all that damage.
Or a war troll with claw attacks. or a giant. or something with insane dex so you can do the daggerspell flurry.

only thing that would come to waste is the "large" wildshape ability that both PrC's say you get at their respective levels. I think this would be fun to play. any opinions?
dman11235
04-04-08, 10:34 AM If you think it's fun to play, play it. It's not my cup of tea, but I don't play druids. Does sound adequately powerful though.
Sinfire Titan
04-04-08, 11:54 AM 2 rogue/5 druid/3 Master of Many Forms/10 Dagger spell shaper.
Does this sound horridly weird?
2 rogue for evasion/sneak attack, 5 druid for the spellcasting/wildshape.
3 MoMF for the Giant/Large/monstrous humanoid ability
and the rest in dagger spellshaper for the niffty stuff +the spell progression which would get me 7th level spells.

So, you can be a dagger spellshaper with 2 daggers, shift, still be able to cast spells after shifted because of the MoMF ability, shape into a cave troll for example, cast the spells for your daggers, charge said opponent, pounce him, and apply sneak attack to all that damage.
Or a war troll with claw attacks. or a giant. or something with insane dex so you can do the daggerspell flurry.

only thing that would come to waste is the "large" wildshape ability that both PrC's say you get at their respective levels. I think this would be fun to play. any opinions?

One less level of Rogue and you have 8th level spells.Not the best, but ok. Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) instead of Rogue levels and drop a level of MoMF for Druid 7. Then we are talking pure gold. You lose 16+(2xInt) skill points and two feats, but keep 1 point of BAB, have Sneak Attack +5d6, with 9th level spells to boot. And two bonus HPs, just to rub it in the Rogue's face. Oh, and get your DM to ignore the Customer Service Ruling of Open Least Chakra, and take Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) to get Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and a +1 Insight bonus to Reflex saves (more with Azurin) at the cost of your boots (are you even wearing any?).

Oh, and one "Get out of Jail Free" card in the form of a Shadow Hand maneuver (pick either Cloak of Deception or Shadow Jaunt for the panic button, and maybe grab a Shadow Hands of at least Scholar with a Wilding Clasp for more escape methods).

Nothing says "Oh S***!" like a Sneak Attacking Pouncing Dire Bear with Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and the ability to Teleport or turn Invisible 1/encounter, while casting 9th level Druid spells. Except a Planar Shepard.
Zillah
04-04-08, 12:22 PM One less level of Rogue and you have 8th level spells.Not the best, but ok. Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) instead of Rogue levels and drop a level of MoMF for Druid 7. Then we are talking pure gold. You lose 16+(2xInt) skill points and two feats, but keep 1 point of BAB, have Sneak Attack +5d6, with 9th level spells to boot. And two bonus HPs, just to rub it in the Rogue's face. Oh, and get your DM to ignore the Customer Service Ruling of Open Least Chakra, and take Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) to get Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and a +1 Insight bonus to Reflex saves (more with Azurin) at the cost of your boots (are you even wearing any?).

Oh, and one "Get out of Jail Free" card in the form of a Shadow Hand maneuver (pick either Cloak of Deception or Shadow Jaunt for the panic button, and maybe grab a Shadow Hands of at least Scholar with a Wilding Clasp for more escape methods).

Nothing says "Oh S***!" like a Sneak Attacking Pouncing Dire Bear with Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and the ability to Teleport or turn Invisible 1/encounter, while casting 9th level Druid spells. Except a Planar Shepard.

the daggerspellshaper class pre-req says I have to have a sneak attack before I come into the class. so im gonna drop the rogue level(only 1?) for martial maneuvers.
um, imma newb when it comes to the tome of battle =( how do I get maneuvers when I have no class abilities from that book?
what I do understand of what you are saying is this.
MoMF 2 instead of 3. 1 rogue instead of 2.
drop 2 feats for "martial stance" 1 for the pre-req and 1 for sneak attack? ugh. thats 2 feats.
I would rather have evasion as a class ability anyway.
I am not even sure if I want to take MoMF anymore because of the feat req's needed for it. arg. Might be better to just have 2 rogue/8 druid/10 DSS.
The idea you threw at me is tempting though. about gear? not really sure, I could be horrible and take VOP with 2 plain old daggers(allowed by VOP as long as they aren't masterwork or magical) and be crazy
Sinfire Titan
04-04-08, 12:46 PM the daggerspellshaper class pre-req says I have to have a sneak attack before I come into the class. so im gonna drop the rogue level(only 1?) for martial maneuvers.
um, imma newb when it comes to the tome of battle =( how do I get maneuvers when I have no class abilities from that book?
what I do understand of what you are saying is this.
MoMF 2 instead of 3. 1 rogue instead of 2.
drop 2 feats for "martial stance" 1 for the pre-req and 1 for sneak attack? ugh. thats 2 feats.
I would rather have evasion as a class ability anyway.
I am not even sure if I want to take MoMF anymore because of the feat req's needed for it. arg. Might be better to just have 1 rogue/9 druid/10 DSS.
The idea you threw at me is tempting though. about gear? not really sure, I could be horrible and take VOP with 2 plain old daggers(allowed by VOP as long as they aren't masterwork or magical) and be crazy

Well, by RAW, you can get Assassin's Stance and its requisite Shadow Hand Maneuver with just the Shadow Hands and Wilding Clasp. So really you only need 2 levels of MoMF, no Rogue levels, and a pair of magic items. But having a huge weakness to AMFs means you may want the feats instead. Use the items only to improve upon the feats.

Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) gives you Uncanny Dodge. Open Least Chakra (by RAW) gives the Feet Chakra and the ability to bind Soulmelds to it, which binding Impulse Boots grants Evasion 24/7/365.25. Nuts on its own. The +1 Insight to Reflex means you will have a decent Reflex save period. Azurin improves upon this. And while you are at it, grab Azure Wild Shape and maybe Share Soulmeld or Cerulean Reflexes/Cobalt Charge, and you are set to kill.

Go ahead and drop MoMF if you dislike it even a little. Druid 20 is proven to be better than MoMF. If you can get the PrC adapted, Planar Shepard is less-broken outside of Eberron (unless you choose the Outlands as your plane, then your DM can call shenanigans as you can Wild Shape and kick the tar out of deities as early as 14th). If not, Druid 20 with Dragon Wild Shape and Exalted Wild Shape is hard to beat.

Your Animal Companion isn't limited to your alignment, so have it pick up a few of the Abyssal Heirator feats (namely all but two of them).

VoP Druids are great, if you take a level of Monk with it.

Getting the maneuvers from Bo9S is attained through Martial Study+Minimum IL for the maneuver in question (doubled because you aren't an Adept). Martial Stance is the same, but requires Martial Study or a level-dip. I recomend the method that never loses CL, so Martial Study at 6th for 2nd level maneuvers, and get Martial Stance at 12th, picking up Dragon Shape at 15th. If your DM allows FC1, then use the Embrace the Dark Chaos feat to turn your Medium Armor profs into a Abyssal Heirator feat, and then Shun the Dark Chaos to turn it into Martial Stance at 10th. Very cheesy, but easily acceptable. Assassin's Stance then grants you2d6 Sneak Attack, but only while you are conscious (which, really, when are you sneak attacking while asleep?). Martial Study gets you Child of Shadows, which is the 1 Shadow Hand Maneuver you need to learn the Assassin's Stance with Martial Stance.

The Incarnum is just for Evasion. You don't need it though, as Druid 20 is the 3rd strongest build in the game (second to Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10, and third to Pun-Pun 1).

9th level spells means you are easily the bad-boy on the block. This is if you don't use Daggerspell Shaper. If you don't drop Assassin's Stance and have your Animal Companion learn the Shadow Hand instead (and watch the hilarity ensue as you have a Dire Bear/Fleshraker that can Sneak Attack on a Swift action charge). You may want the Animal Companion to pick up Trickery Devotion and call it Compact Supermount, as doing so doubles the number of attacks it can make for the duration once it hits 15 HD. Cheap, effective, and very mean!

Equipment is effectively Armor, some random wands/staves, and a ton of good items to boost your stats, with the rest going towards combat tricks and Wilding Clasps.
Zillah
04-04-08, 01:44 PM 1/2 my character level. so, fighter at level 2 to get a level 1 maneuver? and at level 6 to get the assassin's stance?

now I am thinking of, 2 fighter for the 2 feats. get the martial maneuver, and martial stance(assassin's) 8 druid, 10 DSS.

now, about the companion thing. DSS does not stack with druid levels for companions. so, how is my companion supposed to learn shadowhand?
Sinfire Titan
04-05-08, 02:35 AM 1/2 my character level. so, fighter at level 2 to get a level 1 maneuver? and at level 6 to get the assassin's stance?

now I am thinking of, 2 fighter for the 2 feats. get the martial maneuver, and martial stance(assassin's) 8 druid, 10 DSS.

now, about the companion thing. DSS does not stack with druid levels for companions. so, how is my companion supposed to learn shadowhand?

No. You are right about the Level 1 maneuver. The 3rd level won't be available till 10th due to the feat itself.

That is a problem. Druid 20 is looking more tempting by the review. But DSS is what you want, so maybe just forget the AC's advancement.
Jaxgaret
04-05-08, 02:40 AM Druid 20 is looking more tempting by the review.

One of the best builds in the game, hands down, is always going to look tempting :)
Zillah
04-05-08, 07:42 PM I wanted DSS so I could sneak attack, heal/cast, wildshape, and just have fun. It would be considered a 3-4 maybe even 5 front build. but of course straight drood always is better ;-p DSS just looks and sounds fun
Jaxgaret
04-05-08, 09:03 PM I wanted DSS so I could sneak attack, heal/cast, wildshape, and just have fun. It would be considered a 3-4 maybe even 5 front build. but of course straight drood always is better ;-p DSS just looks and sounds fun

Sounds good to me. I agree with this whole post.

You're basically taking a Druid and making it a different kind of generalist, diluting its power a fair bit. It will still be plenty viable as a character, though - it will be at least as powerful as a straight Ranger, but probably still much stronger. [Almost] nothing compares to Druid20.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zillah 04-04-08, 12:41 AM	2 rogue/5 druid/3 Master of Many Forms/10 Dagger spell shaper. Does this sound horridly weird? 2 rogue for evasion/sneak attack, 5 druid for the spellcasting/wildshape. 3 MoMF for the Giant/Large/monstrous humanoid ability and the rest in dagger spellshaper for the niffty stuff +the spell progression which would get me 7th level spells. So, you can be a dagger spellshaper with 2 daggers, shift, still be able to cast spells after shifted because of the MoMF ability, shape into a cave troll for example, cast the spells for your daggers, charge said opponent, pounce him, and apply sneak attack to all that damage. Or a war troll with claw attacks. or a giant. or something with insane dex so you can do the daggerspell flurry. only thing that would come to waste is the "large" wildshape ability that both PrC's say you get at their respective levels. I think this would be fun to play. any opinions?
dman11235 04-04-08, 10:34 AM	If you think it's fun to play, play it. It's not my cup of tea, but I don't play druids. Does sound adequately powerful though.
Sinfire Titan 04-04-08, 11:54 AM	2 rogue/5 druid/3 Master of Many Forms/10 Dagger spell shaper. Does this sound horridly weird? 2 rogue for evasion/sneak attack, 5 druid for the spellcasting/wildshape. 3 MoMF for the Giant/Large/monstrous humanoid ability and the rest in dagger spellshaper for the niffty stuff +the spell progression which would get me 7th level spells. So, you can be a dagger spellshaper with 2 daggers, shift, still be able to cast spells after shifted because of the MoMF ability, shape into a cave troll for example, cast the spells for your daggers, charge said opponent, pounce him, and apply sneak attack to all that damage. Or a war troll with claw attacks. or a giant. or something with insane dex so you can do the daggerspell flurry. only thing that would come to waste is the "large" wildshape ability that both PrC's say you get at their respective levels. I think this would be fun to play. any opinions? One less level of Rogue and you have 8th level spells.Not the best, but ok. Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) instead of Rogue levels and drop a level of MoMF for Druid 7. Then we are talking pure gold. You lose 16+(2xInt) skill points and two feats, but keep 1 point of BAB, have Sneak Attack +5d6, with 9th level spells to boot. And two bonus HPs, just to rub it in the Rogue's face. Oh, and get your DM to ignore the Customer Service Ruling of Open Least Chakra, and take Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) to get Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and a +1 Insight bonus to Reflex saves (more with Azurin) at the cost of your boots (are you even wearing any?). Oh, and one "Get out of Jail Free" card in the form of a Shadow Hand maneuver (pick either Cloak of Deception or Shadow Jaunt for the panic button, and maybe grab a Shadow Hands of at least Scholar with a Wilding Clasp for more escape methods). Nothing says "Oh S***!" like a Sneak Attacking Pouncing Dire Bear with Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and the ability to Teleport or turn Invisible 1/encounter, while casting 9th level Druid spells. Except a Planar Shepard.
Zillah 04-04-08, 12:22 PM	One less level of Rogue and you have 8th level spells.Not the best, but ok. Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) instead of Rogue levels and drop a level of MoMF for Druid 7. Then we are talking pure gold. You lose 16+(2xInt) skill points and two feats, but keep 1 point of BAB, have Sneak Attack +5d6, with 9th level spells to boot. And two bonus HPs, just to rub it in the Rogue's face. Oh, and get your DM to ignore the Customer Service Ruling of Open Least Chakra, and take Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) to get Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and a +1 Insight bonus to Reflex saves (more with Azurin) at the cost of your boots (are you even wearing any?). Oh, and one "Get out of Jail Free" card in the form of a Shadow Hand maneuver (pick either Cloak of Deception or Shadow Jaunt for the panic button, and maybe grab a Shadow Hands of at least Scholar with a Wilding Clasp for more escape methods). Nothing says "Oh S***!" like a Sneak Attacking Pouncing Dire Bear with Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and the ability to Teleport or turn Invisible 1/encounter, while casting 9th level Druid spells. Except a Planar Shepard. the daggerspellshaper class pre-req says I have to have a sneak attack before I come into the class. so im gonna drop the rogue level(only 1?) for martial maneuvers. um, imma newb when it comes to the tome of battle =( how do I get maneuvers when I have no class abilities from that book? what I do understand of what you are saying is this. MoMF 2 instead of 3. 1 rogue instead of 2. drop 2 feats for "martial stance" 1 for the pre-req and 1 for sneak attack? ugh. thats 2 feats. I would rather have evasion as a class ability anyway. I am not even sure if I want to take MoMF anymore because of the feat req's needed for it. arg. Might be better to just have 2 rogue/8 druid/10 DSS. The idea you threw at me is tempting though. about gear? not really sure, I could be horrible and take VOP with 2 plain old daggers(allowed by VOP as long as they aren't masterwork or magical) and be crazy
Sinfire Titan 04-04-08, 12:46 PM	the daggerspellshaper class pre-req says I have to have a sneak attack before I come into the class. so im gonna drop the rogue level(only 1?) for martial maneuvers. um, imma newb when it comes to the tome of battle =( how do I get maneuvers when I have no class abilities from that book? what I do understand of what you are saying is this. MoMF 2 instead of 3. 1 rogue instead of 2. drop 2 feats for "martial stance" 1 for the pre-req and 1 for sneak attack? ugh. thats 2 feats. I would rather have evasion as a class ability anyway. I am not even sure if I want to take MoMF anymore because of the feat req's needed for it. arg. Might be better to just have 1 rogue/9 druid/10 DSS. The idea you threw at me is tempting though. about gear? not really sure, I could be horrible and take VOP with 2 plain old daggers(allowed by VOP as long as they aren't masterwork or magical) and be crazy Well, by RAW, you can get Assassin's Stance and its requisite Shadow Hand Maneuver with just the Shadow Hands and Wilding Clasp. So really you only need 2 levels of MoMF, no Rogue levels, and a pair of magic items. But having a huge weakness to AMFs means you may want the feats instead. Use the items only to improve upon the feats. Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) gives you Uncanny Dodge. Open Least Chakra (by RAW) gives the Feet Chakra and the ability to bind Soulmelds to it, which binding Impulse Boots grants Evasion 24/7/365.25. Nuts on its own. The +1 Insight to Reflex means you will have a decent Reflex save period. Azurin improves upon this. And while you are at it, grab Azure Wild Shape and maybe Share Soulmeld or Cerulean Reflexes/Cobalt Charge, and you are set to kill. Go ahead and drop MoMF if you dislike it even a little. Druid 20 is proven to be better than MoMF. If you can get the PrC adapted, Planar Shepard is less-broken outside of Eberron (unless you choose the Outlands as your plane, then your DM can call shenanigans as you can Wild Shape and kick the tar out of deities as early as 14th). If not, Druid 20 with Dragon Wild Shape and Exalted Wild Shape is hard to beat. Your Animal Companion isn't limited to your alignment, so have it pick up a few of the Abyssal Heirator feats (namely all but two of them). VoP Druids are great, if you take a level of Monk with it. Getting the maneuvers from Bo9S is attained through Martial Study+Minimum IL for the maneuver in question (doubled because you aren't an Adept). Martial Stance is the same, but requires Martial Study or a level-dip. I recomend the method that never loses CL, so Martial Study at 6th for 2nd level maneuvers, and get Martial Stance at 12th, picking up Dragon Shape at 15th. If your DM allows FC1, then use the Embrace the Dark Chaos feat to turn your Medium Armor profs into a Abyssal Heirator feat, and then Shun the Dark Chaos to turn it into Martial Stance at 10th. Very cheesy, but easily acceptable. Assassin's Stance then grants you2d6 Sneak Attack, but only while you are conscious (which, really, when are you sneak attacking while asleep?). Martial Study gets you Child of Shadows, which is the 1 Shadow Hand Maneuver you need to learn the Assassin's Stance with Martial Stance. The Incarnum is just for Evasion. You don't need it though, as Druid 20 is the 3rd strongest build in the game (second to Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10, and third to Pun-Pun 1). 9th level spells means you are easily the bad-boy on the block. This is if you don't use Daggerspell Shaper. If you don't drop Assassin's Stance and have your Animal Companion learn the Shadow Hand instead (and watch the hilarity ensue as you have a Dire Bear/Fleshraker that can Sneak Attack on a Swift action charge). You may want the Animal Companion to pick up Trickery Devotion and call it Compact Supermount, as doing so doubles the number of attacks it can make for the duration once it hits 15 HD. Cheap, effective, and very mean! Equipment is effectively Armor, some random wands/staves, and a ton of good items to boost your stats, with the rest going towards combat tricks and Wilding Clasps.
Zillah 04-04-08, 01:44 PM	1/2 my character level. so, fighter at level 2 to get a level 1 maneuver? and at level 6 to get the assassin's stance? now I am thinking of, 2 fighter for the 2 feats. get the martial maneuver, and martial stance(assassin's) 8 druid, 10 DSS. now, about the companion thing. DSS does not stack with druid levels for companions. so, how is my companion supposed to learn shadowhand?
Sinfire Titan 04-05-08, 02:35 AM	1/2 my character level. so, fighter at level 2 to get a level 1 maneuver? and at level 6 to get the assassin's stance? now I am thinking of, 2 fighter for the 2 feats. get the martial maneuver, and martial stance(assassin's) 8 druid, 10 DSS. now, about the companion thing. DSS does not stack with druid levels for companions. so, how is my companion supposed to learn shadowhand? No. You are right about the Level 1 maneuver. The 3rd level won't be available till 10th due to the feat itself. That is a problem. Druid 20 is looking more tempting by the review. But DSS is what you want, so maybe just forget the AC's advancement.
Jaxgaret 04-05-08, 02:40 AM	Druid 20 is looking more tempting by the review. One of the best builds in the game, hands down, is always going to look tempting :)
Zillah 04-05-08, 07:42 PM	I wanted DSS so I could sneak attack, heal/cast, wildshape, and just have fun. It would be considered a 3-4 maybe even 5 front build. but of course straight drood always is better ;-p DSS just looks and sounds fun
Jaxgaret 04-05-08, 09:03 PM	I wanted DSS so I could sneak attack, heal/cast, wildshape, and just have fun. It would be considered a 3-4 maybe even 5 front build. but of course straight drood always is better ;-p DSS just looks and sounds fun Sounds good to me. I agree with this whole post. You're basically taking a Druid and making it a different kind of generalist, diluting its power a fair bit. It will still be plenty viable as a character, though - it will be at least as powerful as a straight Ranger, but probably still much stronger. [Almost] nothing compares to Druid20.