Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 05-05-07, 03:32 PM	I'm just curious -- it's generally been the consensus that the illithid slayer, if the illithid-killing prerequisites are ignored (as per the SRD version), is overpowered compared to arcane warrior-mage prestige classes. Now, the abjurant champion is widely regarded as a big step up from previous warrior-mages, so my question is: is it roughly balanced with the SRD slayer?
CantripN 05-05-07, 05:20 PM	One could make that comparison, yes. Except it's 5/5 vs. 9/10, and the AC has better class features except the Mindblank.
runestar 05-06-07, 09:51 AM	I don't see how the requisite that you must kill an illithid is meant to balance it, save for delaying how early you can enter into said prc until around lv7 or 8...:confused:
The_Shaman 05-06-07, 04:16 PM	Well, it depends on whether you consider psionics to be as powerful as magic. I consider it a bit weaker, so I don't blame the IS. Mind you, the Eldritch Knight (the arcane IS) could use a few other abilities to give it some extra fluff, but maybe it's just me.
Jaxgaret 05-06-07, 04:23 PM	Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) Is this the class you are discussing?
JulesCARV 05-06-07, 04:42 PM	Yes, that's it :). (that, and the Abjurant Champion for Complete Mage)
Jaxgaret 05-06-07, 05:25 PM	This is the Requirements section for that class: Base Attack Bonus +4. Skill Knowledge (dungeoneering) 4 ranks. Feat Track. Psionics Must have a power point reserve of at least 1 power point. I don't see anything about having to have slain an Illithid. EDIT: Oh, I'm sorry, I see that you already stated that in the OP. Woops. if the illithid-killing prerequisites are ignored (as per the SRD version)
Jaxgaret 05-06-07, 05:34 PM	If you assume that Psionics < Magic (as you seem to), the Slayer seems pretty balanced to the Eldritch Knight. The question is, does 2 skill points per level and all of those class features make up the difference between the power level of Psionics and Magic? I personally don't know, because I don't use Psionics. As much as I read that Psionics isn't broken, every time I take a look at Psionic material (yes, the new 3.5 stuff) and read it as PEACH-ily as possible, it seems pretty broken to me.
JulesCARV 05-06-07, 07:25 PM	Personally, I'm not assuming that psionics is weaker that magic. (I'm not sure if that was addressed to me or The_Shaman, who does seem to view psionics as weaker) The question here, though, is not about the Slayer vs. the Eldritch Knight -- the slayer pretty clearly comes out on top there -- but the slayer vs. the abjurant champion.
teshen 05-06-07, 09:52 PM	I don't see how the requisite that you must kill an illithid is meant to balance it, save for delaying how early you can enter into said prc until around lv7 or 8...:confused: Maybe... but if you've got a big enough group and you can convince the rest to hunt one down... you might be able to pull it off at the level that you can just get in... but that depends on the path of entry. Slayer and Abjurant Champion aren't good comparisons because they scale over different levels... but ok. I'll bite. For slayer, you can angle for a good base attack and have weaker powers, or have good powers and eventually just jump into slayer late in your career... Kind of like abjurant champion. Slayers powers progress over 10 levels as opposed to AC's 5 levels. Slayer give flat ablilities where as AC scales over a half the levels... thus making sure that AC's abilities will be weaker but useful. Both classes have a good base attack, good will but bad other saves, and thematically cool niche abilities. Slayers ability to decrease power resistance is huge considering psionic/magic transparency. The good will save is made kind of redundant thanks to brain protection power but is still kind of good against creatures with a mind affecting abilities. The immunity to scrying is kind of cool for a sneaky character... The last one is weak, though, in the absence of illithids. You'd almost want to tick off a telepath to have your ability do something... AC gives the free quickening of select low level spells, the ability to use spells for saves and other small boosts (kind of like an elan's ability...), using a few spells in place of spending a lot of cash on good armor, and the subing of your base attack for caster level... 9/10 casting verses 5/5. Both have the same base attack and saves. AC has mildly better hit points and Slayer has better skill points. Slayer lasts longer and so your getting better skill points longer... and not having to do the prc dance as much... but most of the psionic prcs loose at least one caster level verses a lot of full casting prcs... but none of those are martial in nature... I'd say that they are both good, but not too good, unless you've used some cheese somewhere...
Jaxgaret 05-06-07, 11:26 PM	Personally, I'm not assuming that psionics is weaker that magic. (I'm not sure if that was addressed to me or The_Shaman, who does seem to view psionics as weaker) The question here, though, is not about the Slayer vs. the Eldritch Knight -- the slayer pretty clearly comes out on top there -- but the slayer vs. the abjurant champion. Do you assume that Psionics is balanced to Magic? If so, then the Abjurant Champion still comes out on top. The Slayer's abilities are too focused against Illithids for it to be as powerful. All they really get is a limited [but powerful] Nondetection, some combat bonuses, Resistance/Immunity to Compulsions and Mind-Affecting effects, and the anti-Illithid stuff. Also, you lose a manifesting level (not sure if that's equivalent in loss to losing a spellcasting level, due to unfamiliarity with Psionics, but let's assume it is equivalent for the moment). It's really not that much more powerful than an Eldritch Knight, which is itself generally considered underpowered. So the Slayer seems to be just fine to me, and not overpowered. Maybe slightly overpowered, but not worryingly so.
teshen 05-07-07, 02:45 AM	Do you assume that Psionics is balanced to Magic? I assume psionics is a more balanced system than magic. You pay for everything you get in psionics one way or the other. If so, then the Abjurant Champion still comes out on top. The Slayer's abilities are too focused against Illithids for it to be as powerful. All they really get is a limited [but powerful] Nondetection, some combat bonuses, Resistance/Immunity to Compulsions and Mind-Affecting effects, and the anti-Illithid stuff. Also, you lose a manifesting level (not sure if that's equivalent in loss to losing a spellcasting level, due to unfamiliarity with Psionics, but let's assume it is equivalent for the moment). False. Slayer as opposed to illithid slayer gets to chose his favored enemy. In a game where magic becomes more useful in the higher levels, being magically untrackable is very useful... and the ability to reduce PR/SR is very useful the higher in level you get. Again it depends on the game you're playing and how you entered the prc. Psionics has no ASF. Manifest all day long in any armor... even the stuff you don't know how to use. It's really not that much more powerful than an Eldritch Knight, which is itself generally considered underpowered. So the Slayer seems to be just fine to me, and not overpowered. Maybe slightly overpowered, but not worryingly so.Both of these have full base attack, a good will save, 9/10 casting... Slayer has one hit die better, better skill points, better skills, and class features... that and the casting doesn't work of gestures or other junk. You think and it happens. Slayer is in all ways better than Eldritch Knight... but slayer is fine, and EK could use a bit of something to keep it from being boring. Why the comparison? Is this an obtuse way of creating another "OMGteh Abjurant Champion is overpowerzords" thread? If you are honestly trying to benchmark the AC in terms of power, you have to think of what it is 'meant' to do. It's for fighter types that dabble in the arcane to boost combat effectiveness. A slayer is a specialized psionic ranger. I remember thinking slayer was overpowered because it gave away weapons and armor to a type of caster that never worried about arcane spell failure on armor. I suggested the class to a friend and he laughed. He asked did I know how many power points that would lose his character, just for some armor... AC is not that strong. You chose between buying good armor or using a few lower level spells to grant you a similar AC. You can burn spells for minor bonuses. You can quicken the first three levels of abjuration spells (and only abjuration). You get good base attack, bad skills and skill points, and a good will save... and 5/5 casting. AC is built on a five level curve... it's fine. If it did what it does for ten levels, then no... it would be wrong... in the same way if Ultimate Magus would be wrong if the class did a full 15 levels pre-epic, being able to get almost full casting in two different arcane classes and augment six, and seventh level spells... AC is built on a particular curve, 5 levels. It does what it does then stops.
Jaxgaret 05-07-07, 11:00 PM	If so, then the Abjurant Champion still comes out on top. The Slayer's abilities are too focused against Illithids for it to be as powerful. All they really get is a limited [but powerful] Nondetection, some combat bonuses, Resistance/Immunity to Compulsions and Mind-Affecting effects, and the anti-Illithid stuff. Also, you lose a manifesting level (not sure if that's equivalent in loss to losing a spellcasting level, due to unfamiliarity with Psionics, but let's assume it is equivalent for the moment). False. Slayer as opposed to illithid slayer gets to chose his favored enemy. In a game where magic becomes more useful in the higher levels, being magically untrackable is very useful... and the ability to reduce PR/SR is very useful the higher in level you get. The Favored Enemy bonus is included under the umbrella of "some combat bonuses" in my post. I agree that it is useful to be magically untrackable, but the Slayer's ability only works as long as you are psionically focused, so it can't be up all the time. On Breach PR: Do manifesters really walk around attacking people in melee or from <30 feet? I don't see how dropping an enemy's SR by a whole 1 point per successful attack from such close range is useful at all for a squishy character.
teshen 05-08-07, 07:28 AM	The Favored Enemy bonus is included under the umbrella of "some combat bonuses" in my post. Alright then. I suppose I glossed over that. I apologize. I agree that it is useful to be magically untrackable, but the Slayer's ability only works as long as you are psionically focused, so it can't be up all the time. While psionically focused... out of combat, that's any time that matters, or usually. And in combat, one is only going to lose their focus while doing something that requires the boost. By this time you've snuck up on your opponent, or charged them, or some other tactic which makes the untrackable point moot. Besides, if it's really necessary, just sink the feats into keeping a usable focus in your crystal and you can keep your focus to power your class abilities and only expend it in case of emergencies. On Breach PR: Do manifesters really walk around attacking people in melee or from <30 feet? I don't see how dropping an enemy's SR by a whole 1 point per successful attack from such close range is useful at all for a squishy character. It depends on the build. More things have PR/SR as you go up in levels. So at higher levels, if you are a more martial character, you soften the outsider up for your buddy's powers with some multi-hit combo. Combine with offensive precognition, strength of my enemy, or some other offensive melee powers that doesn't worry about SR and a speed weapon or other bonus attack powers and you're debuffing your opponent on multiple levels quickly. If you're a squisher wizard-esque manifester, buff, go hydra, tag the crap out of his SR, and then hit him with something that is subject to SR... because after seven or so hits in a row in one round, the attack is getting through.