Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dog_O_War 11-29-07, 10:22 PM	Illusory Fencer I originally posted this as an idea in another thread here, but was asked to post it here. I just copy and pasted it from said other thread, and this is it. As the title suggests, this is a peach, but please read the whole thing, including the notes at the bottom. Requirements Skills: bluff 8 ranks, sense motive 4 ranks, spellcraft 4 ranks, tumble 4 ranks Feats: Combat Expertise, Weapon Proficiency(Rapier), Weapon Focus (Rapier) Special: must be able to cast arcane spells, one of which must be Mirror Image. Hit dice: d6. Skills (4+int): Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Jump, Knowledge(arcana), Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Tumble. BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities Spellcasting 1. +0 +0 +2 +2 Duplicity, Sneak attack +1d6 2. +1 +0 +3 +3 Shadow Parry +1 level of arcane casting class 3. +2 +1 +3 +3 Illusory Strike, Sneak attack +2d6 4. +3 +1 +4 +4 Wit's Edge +1 level of arcane casting class 5. +3 +1 +4 +4 Shadowy Twin, Sneak attack +3d6 Duplicity(Su):* At will the Illusory Fencer may summon an illusory double, as if he had cast a mirror image spell on himself. He may only have one double active at a time, but may have both a Duplicity mirror image active as well as the spell mirror image active on himself. This double lasts for 1 minute per class level, and may be summoned and dismissed any number of times per day. Sneak Attack: At first level the Illusory Fencer gains +1d6 sneak attack (as the rogue ability). At level three this increases to +2d6, and at level five it increases to +3d6. Shadow Parry(Su): The Illusory Fencer is such an artist at combining shadow magic with his rapier style of combat that he may temporarily interpose an illusion to parry an incoming attack. As an immediate action the Illusory Fencer may sacrifice a single mirror image (including the image created from Duplicity and Shadowy Twin) to parry in incoming attack. Make an attack roll using the Fencer's full normal attack bonus; if this result exceeds the opponent's attack roll, then the opponent misses. This may only be done with a rapier, and no more than once per round. As an added bonus, each aditional image sacrificed adds +2 to the result. Illusory Strike(Su):** Once per day per class level, any attack the fencer performs may instead strike through a copy from a mirror image spell (including the one created by Duplicity), leaving the target flat-footed. Because a mirror image can be more than 5 feet away from the creator through multiple images, the strike may attack a creature out of the fencer's normal reach. If a target would be flanked (either by mirror images or by allied characters) then he gains all the bonuses for flanking. Anything that may take the place of an attack may be done through this strike (trip, disarm, sunder,etc...). This does not allow attacks of opportunity through the mirror images, though if an enemy draws an attack of opportunity from the fencer, he may use this strike on the offender, as long as a mirror image is within range. As a note on this ability; you may use a full attack through it; that is one use per strike, any number of times per round. Wit's Edge(Ex): Your ability with a rapier gleans a keen edge from your magical prowess. At fourth level you may add your primary casting stat to all rolls made to confirm critical hits. In addition as long as you have an illusion spell available to be cast, you may add the highest level of illusion available to be cast as a bonus to damage rolls with your rapier. For example, if you have a third level illusion spell available to be cast, then you would add +3 to your damage rolls made with a rapier. Note that since this is a bonus to damage it is multiplied with critical hits. Shadowy Twin(Su):*** At fifth level, his twin of Duplicity becomes infused with shadow stuff, as if he were conjuered via a shadow conjueration spell. This shadowy double has an AC bonus equal to 1/5 your bonus (that is 1/5 your bonus from items, armour, and spells) + your primary casting stat. Any time the fencer would hit with an attack, so does his duplicate; this adds an additional 1d6 points worth of damage. This bonus damage is a magical force effect. The Shadowy duplicate has hit points equal to 1/5 the caster's. The duplicate must always attack the same target as the fencer. If the duplicate is "killed" before he is dismissed, he cannot summon another one for 1 minute, though he may conjuer a normal mirror image (via duplicity). If the shadowy duplicate was injured and then dismissed, this "damage" repairs itself after 1 minute. *I just thought an ability like this would be pretty cool, so I worked it into a class. **This ability may allow strikes normally out of reach, and thanks to images being able to flank, may deny the target his dex. bonus to AC. Additionally, because of the unique supernatural effect involved, creatures normally able to see through illusions can still be struck with this ability, and may still count as flanked if they normally would be. ***The shadow twin is a buff to the mirror image ability; because mirror image may be negated (and often will be) at higher level, I added this to keep the abilities from becoming useless. Also, I thought it was pretty cool. So this is what I propose. It may need some tweeking, and will need some fluff (as I haven't given any), but I stand by my creation. I went more for something that had a neat concept, and that would have a really cool theme to it. I also strive for balance; as you can see, the illusory strike could be quite potent for a character that had mainly rogue levels; that is why it's limited to levels/per day. The Duplicity; while only one image is conjuered, is still enough to provide a flank bonus, as well as a miss-chance.
dman11235 11-29-07, 10:34 PM	I should have told you to put it in tables. Duplicity is overpowered-ish. What I mean is, it's mirror image* at will at first level. Then the other abilities need to stack up to it, possibly even better, but they don't. And you're right. It is a nifty ability. We can fix it by either nerfing it, or upping the power of the other two main class features. The rest of my suggestions are under the assumption of increasing the power of the other features. Make Shadowy Twin any of your duplicity things, and only your duplicity things. The damage it has sustaned is recovered after one minute of rest (after each encounter), or by expending some arbitrary resource**. Illusory Strike needs to be more powerful in general. Not at will, that's too much, more like twice per class level pre day, and target is flat-footed (no +4 bonus). Not denied dex, flat-footed, that way, uncanny dodge foils it (the way you have it now, uncanny dodge should foil it, that's what it's for). It looks fine other than that. *kind of. **Expend a spell slot to heal damage to it (on a 1 for 2 basis, level 1 spell for 2 points of damage, or have all spells that heal you heal your twin an amount equal to 1/5 of what cured you.
Dog_O_War 11-30-07, 10:44 AM	I like that very much. Defenitely post it, I'd say. I only have three points I'd bring up about it- first, can Duplicity and Shadowy Twin be used at the same time, and can either be used with Mirror Image also in effect? Second, can the Illusory Fencer immediately recreate the Shadowy Twin if the Shadowy Twin is dismissed without being damaged? Lastly, can the Shadowy Twin's health be recovered in any way, or does it have to be dismissed/destroyed to get back the HP? What are the prerequisites and details for Arcane Strike? That seems to be almost exactly what I was after all along. Then again, now you guys have me thinking in odd ways about custom classes, so I'll probably keep messing with these things, and that Illusory Fencer sounds interesting enough that I'm defenitely going to keep an eye on how it developes. Hey... I had a concept in my original post... I just didn't organize it well :P I may reorganize it, rework it and re-post it in this thread at some point. Okay, Duplicity is defaulted to a standard action to "cast", but as a supernatural ability it draws no AoO. Shadowy Twin replaces the Duplicity twin, or rather "fills" it with quasi-real material, so they are already used at the same time. The Shadowy Twin can be summoned and dismissed as long as it has hit points, as often as you like. The Duplicity/Shadowy Twin can be created with a mirror image spell that you've cast already in effect; basically, you'd have one extra image. Because the Shadowy Twin is quasi-real, similar to that of a summoned creature conjuered with shadow conjueration spell, any method of healing that works on a shadow-conjuered creature also works on the shadowy twin. The only difference though with the shadowy twin is it functions as a mirror image; attacking only the target you attack. Since Illusory Strike needs a bit of re-wording, I'll post what I had originally intended here, with the fix in the main post (old words in red). I had intended for illusory strike to leave an opponent flat-footed, not just give an attack bonus; the idea got jumbled in my head as I was creating this class, and (thanks to dman11235) the original intent was voiced. Because of the odd nature of the attack, you can strike an opponent out of your reach, but within the reach of a mirror image. It would appear that your images are attacking nothing, save for one. As this is a supernatural effect, you cannot stike both a close target and a far away target; for a brief moment you become the mirror image that is striking, leaving your original position.
Dog_O_War 11-30-07, 11:10 AM	I should have told you to put it in tables. Duplicity is overpowered-ish. What I mean is, it's mirror image* at will at first level. Then the other abilities need to stack up to it, possibly even better, but they don't. And you're right. It is a nifty ability. We can fix it by either nerfing it, or upping the power of the other two main class features. The rest of my suggestions are under the assumption of increasing the power of the other features. Make Shadowy Twin any of your duplicity things, and only your duplicity things. The damage it has sustaned is recovered after one minute of rest (after each encounter), or by expending some arbitrary resource**. Illusory Strike needs to be more powerful in general. Not at will, that's too much, more like twice per class level pre day, and target is flat-footed (no +4 bonus). Not denied dex, flat-footed, that way, uncanny dodge foils it (the way you have it now, uncanny dodge should foil it, that's what it's for). It looks fine other than that. *kind of. **Expend a spell slot to heal damage to it (on a 1 for 2 basis, level 1 spell for 2 points of damage, or have all spells that heal you heal your twin an amount equal to 1/5 of what cured you. I understand why you would think it over-powered (Duplicity), but here was the counter-points I was thinking of when I created the ability. Takes a standard action to "cast". It is available at first level of the class, but the first level of the class is only available at 6th level for humans, or 7th for non-humans. It is a "minimized" spell, acting at minimum caster level with a minimum roll. Essentially, it is a very crappy infinite-use scroll, who's price amounts to <insert 2nd level scroll price here>, but less, as it has the absolute minimum effect every "casting". You can make such an item through craft wonderous item, at the cost of onehundred times the scroll; like 7500gp at most. It is an illusion, and may be seen through with true seeing, foiled by blind-sight, blind sense, etc... The cleave feat puts short work of this ability also. What I'm saying is that certain encounters will easily defeat this, while it stands to give a caster (that can already cast the spell) a modified "reserve feat" regarding mirror image. I hope this clears things up abit.
big_squirrel 11-30-07, 01:06 PM	If the shadowy duplicate was injured and then dismissed, this "damage" repairs itself after 1 hour. The Shadowy Twin can be summoned and dismissed as long as it has hit points, as often as you like. So you're idea is that if it's injured, dismissed, then resummoned before the hour is up, the shadowy twin comes back missing the same HP as he had when dismissed? And how would sneak attack damage work through the illusory strike ability? Does illusory strike automatically grant a sneak attack (unless the critter has uncanny dodge or is otherwise immune to sneak attack damage)? Last thing- the way duplicity is worded. First, how long does the image last? Second, I think it would be possible to create a lot of mirror images from this ability (up to ten per minute)- if that's not what you had in mind, I'd suggest throwing something like "only [whatever max number you want] image(s) can exist at a time from this ability, but images from any other source are not limited" in there, but with better wording. If the images can last, say, one minute per class level, at fifth level the character could concievably, if the battle went long enough or the character planned far enough ahead, have 49 images, extending his effective reach by 245 feet for the purposes of illusory strike.
Dog_O_War 11-30-07, 01:35 PM	So you're idea is that if it's injured, dismissed, then resummoned before the hour is up, the shadowy twin comes back missing the same HP as he had when dismissed? Yes, exactly. This is to avoid a meat-shield effect. And how would sneak attack damage work through the illusory strike ability? Does illusory strike automatically grant a sneak attack (unless the critter has uncanny dodge or is otherwise immune to sneak attack damage)? Since it leaves your opponent flat-footed, regardless of whether or not he can see through the illusion of the mirror image, the answer is yes. Last thing- the way duplicity is worded. First, how long does the image last? Second, I think it would be possible to create a lot of mirror images from this ability (up to ten per minute)- if that's not what you had in mind, I'd suggest throwing something like "only [whatever max number you want] image(s) can exist at a time from this ability, but images from any other source are not limited" in there, but with better wording. If the images can last, say, one minute per class level, at fifth level the character could concievably, if the battle went long enough or the character planned far enough ahead, have 49 images, extending his effective reach by 245 feet for the purposes of illusory strike. Never thought about the wording... It is intended to create only one image ever; while the ability is active, no new images can be created with this power. It is a double, that lasts as long as you like; maybe I'll put it to a minute per class level.
dman11235 11-30-07, 04:00 PM	Read: overpowered-ish. It's not actually overpowered, just overpowered compared to the rest of the class. That's why I suggested the boost in power to the other abilities. I mean, the Swift blade gets haste at will as a swift action (swift blade is on the wizards website. Will link. It's basically this class is to mirror image as that one is to haste.). And I think that illusory strike should be 2/class level, unless you extend the class to 10 levels (don't do this unless you actually have a plan. It's fine the way it is now). I also think it would be perfectly fine to say that ANY duplicity that he creates would have the shadowy twin. Not just one, and if it dies. Actually, just get rid of the whole you can't summon another for an hour, you can summon a new one next turn. And every time you summon one, it's at full health. Make it work with mirror image as well. And good job catching that error with duplicity. I totally missed that.
Dog_O_War 11-30-07, 04:23 PM	Read: overpowered-ish. It's not actually overpowered, just overpowered compared to the rest of the class. That's why I suggested the boost in power to the other abilities. I mean, the Swift blade gets haste at will as a swift action (swift blade is on the wizards website. Will link. It's basically this class is to mirror image as that one is to haste.). And I think that illusory strike should be 2/class level, unless you extend the class to 10 levels (don't do this unless you actually have a plan. It's fine the way it is now). I also think it would be perfectly fine to say that ANY duplicity that he creates would have the shadowy twin. Not just one, and if it dies. Actually, just get rid of the whole you can't summon another for an hour, you can summon a new one next turn. And every time you summon one, it's at full health. Make it work with mirror image as well. And good job catching that error with duplicity. I totally missed that. Duplicity itself is unlimited; only the shadowy twin is limited to the above restrictions as to avoid a constant damage shield. Maybe I'll change it to "heal" after 1 minute. Maybe I should change the illusory strike to include more of a rapier-based ability; it is required to take the class, but there is nothing that plays off of it. Maybe it should be of infinite use, but no more than once per round. Thoughts?
dman11235 11-30-07, 04:58 PM	But the shadowy twin...there's nothing that says they HAVE to hit it rather than you. And it's got, what, 1/5th of 100 HP at level 15 or so? That's one hit. And they will hit, as it is not got that high an AC. Just adding your casting stat? Not that big a boost. They have a good chance of hitting you, so they are definately going to hit it, save for their last two attacks or so. And good idea on that rapier thing. i'm trying to think of how to pull it off, rather than just "this only works with rapier". Somethig like they feel as if that illusory rapier is real, but then, it IS, and then it's not again. OR you could expand to ten levels and give some other rapier abilities in there. Not one of the strongest suggestions (just an option, not really what I'm suggesting). This class does not need much work at all. It's almost ready to playtest.
Dog_O_War 02-14-08, 05:04 PM	Wow, I'ma dredge up the dead with this class. I'm going to post these ideas quick here, and then modify them later. At second level add Shadow Parry(Su): The illusory fencer is such an artist at combining shadow magic with his rapier style of combat that he may temporarily interpose an illusion to parry an incoming attack. As an immediate action the Illusory Fencer may sacrifice a single mirror image (including the image created from Duplicity and Shadowy Twin) to parry in incoming attack. Make an attack roll using the Fencer's full normal attack bonus; if this result exceeds the opponent's attack roll, then the opponent misses. This may only be done with a rapier, and no more than once per round. As an added bonus, each aditional image sacrificed adds +2 to the result. At fourth level add Blade as sharp as the Mind(Ex): When wielding a rapier and nothing in your off-hand, you may add your int bonus to damage. Post your thoughts.
Dog_O_War 02-15-08, 11:35 AM	Updated with new abilities at 2nd and 4th level. Made the class more.....rapier...y.
dman11235 02-15-08, 02:19 PM	Just give me a couple minutes. Or hours. Kind of swamped right now. I'd love to give feedback though. EDIT: You still need a table.
dman11235 02-15-08, 03:27 PM	Could you clean it up a bit? Like add a table, and list the abilities in a more traditional way? It's kind of hard to evaluate it right now.
Dog_O_War 02-15-08, 07:35 PM	How do I do a table?
dman11235 02-15-08, 10:17 PM	code tags. Put [] around code at the begining, and /code at the end. Heck, just check out the (newly stickied: finally) PrC builder's Cheat Sheet.
Dog_O_War 02-16-08, 09:29 AM	Cleaned it up.
dman11235 02-16-08, 12:02 PM	I'd have Shadowy Twin (great ability, btw) allow the use of the normal Duplicity, just not the extra shadowy (re:part real) one for a minute. Meaning you could still use Duplicity, but the Shadowy Twin isn't available. Have the prereq spellcasting be just the ability to cast Mirror Image. You need more "oomph" at level 5. Right now the only benefit is +1d6 force damage on attacks that can be "killed". How about putting SA at odd levels? That should be it. I don't think the SA change will over power it. I really like Wit's Edge and Shadow Parry. And Illusory Strike. You get this: :cookie:
Dog_O_War 02-16-08, 12:37 PM	I'd have Shadowy Twin (great ability, btw) allow the use of the normal Duplicity, just not the extra shadowy (re:part real) one for a minute. Meaning you could still use Duplicity, but the Shadowy Twin isn't available. That's what the text I wrote says (maybe I'll reword it to be more clear). Have the prereq spellcasting be just the ability to cast Mirror Image. It's supposed to have ties with magic beyond just the spell mirror image though. This is why I've included tidbits of abilities similar to the shadow conjueration/evocation spells; illusions becoming quasi-real. You need more "oomph" at level 5. Right now the only benefit is +1d6 force damage on attacks that can be "killed". How about putting SA at odd levels? I guess that would work. That should be it. I don't think the SA change will over power it. I really like Wit's Edge and Shadow Parry. And Illusory Strike. You get this: :cookie: Yay, cookies:)
dman11235 02-16-08, 01:02 PM	Shadow evocation/conjuration are illusion spells. Everything about them is shadow stuff, nothing is evoked or conjured. The Swiftblade only requires Haste I believe. If not, then put a minimum level of spell to be able to cast. Like this: able to cast second level spells, including Mirror Image.