Immunity defined ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Immunity defined ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
nighttree
09-19-07, 12:33 PM I have been looking at the "Dread Witch" (HoH), and the "Nightmare Spinner" (CM), and I'm having a problem judging the interaction of the two classes.

The Dread witch has an ability called "Absorb Fear" which allows her to increase her caster level when "exposed" to a fear effect (if she succeeds on her will save to resist the effect).

However the Nightmare Spinner gains "immunity" to fear effects at 1st level.

Does immunity count as automatically making your save ?
Or does it completely negate the "Absorb Fear" ability ?

EDIT: Another question, if the "immunity to fear" negates the absorption, as a (Su) ability can I choose to suppress it ?

I looked through the DMG, PH, and MM, but can't really find a specific definition on "immunity".

Any help ?
goawayugh
09-19-07, 12:41 PM I looked up fire immunity in the D&D Glossary. It says that the creature "never takes fire damage". If you were immune to fear, then you would never be exposed to it, and therefore not be able to absorb it.
nighttree
09-19-07, 12:52 PM I looked up fire immunity in the D&D Glossary. It says that the creature "never takes fire damage". If you were immune to fear, then you would never be exposed to it, and therefore not be able to absorb it.

That's kind of what I thought (which makes me wonder about all the Dread Witch/Nightmare spinner builds I see :confused: )

I still wonder if you can "choose" to supress a "Supernatural ability" rendering yourself vulnerable on purpose (like suppressing spell resistance so you can benifit from a spell) ?
nighttree
09-20-07, 12:01 AM WOW....no other opinions ???
runestar
09-21-07, 12:22 AM I would say that exposure and affecting are 2 separate things.

You can be exposed to fire, but not take any damage by virtue of your fire immunity, IMO.

For example, I believe while you might be immune to fear, you could nonetheless choose to let yourself affected by said spell. The effect would be no different, in that saves would be automatically made, damage would all be prevented etc. Thus, while the fear effect ultimately has no "effect" on you, you would still have been exposed to a fear effect for all purposes and intents of interacting with absorb fear.

But for ease of gameplay, it makes no sense to go through the motions of being affected by said spell, then claiming to be unaffected by it, when you could just declare that you are outright immune to it from the start and save all that fuss, which is why few, if any players ever use the aforementioned method, though I would argue that it is actually the proper "channel to follow".

Too cheesy an interpretation?:P
forsaken1111
09-22-07, 03:41 PM From what I read, the dread witch's abilities work by focusing the fear she is feeling to empower her abilities. If she isn't feeling the fear, how can she utilize it?
runestar
09-22-07, 09:52 PM From what I read, the dread witch's abilities work by focusing the fear she is feeling to empower her abilities. If she isn't feeling the fear, how can she utilize it?

Because fluff and mechanics are 2 completely separate things.:P
Kuro_Khan
09-23-07, 12:30 AM Because fluff and mechanics are 2 completely separate things.:P

But when you start to separate these things, you descend into the valley of the munchkins...
runestar
09-23-07, 08:50 AM But when you start to separate these things, you descend into the valley of the munchkins...

Perhaps, but I do seem to recall reading such a clause somewhere, perhaps in the PHB or DMG, which mentions something about immunity and the equivalent of automatically making your saves.

This makes me wonder if as per the rules, you still go through the motions of the spell affecting you (and checking your sr, saves, hp etc), just that you end up making each of them if you are immune. People would simply skip these steps, but still...
Witch
09-23-07, 01:01 PM Because fluff and mechanics are 2 completely separate things.:P
That's where you're wrong, ofcourse.
StruckingFuggle
09-23-07, 04:50 PM That's where you're wrong, ofcourse.

"So says the DM who's never made his own flavor"?
Witch
09-23-07, 04:58 PM "So says the DM who's never made his own flavor"?
No, so says the designer. Fluff and mechanics are equally important, and should intermingle when designing. Fluff without mechanics makes no game, while mechanics without fluff are hollow and empty.
Malchius
09-23-07, 05:06 PM Maybe you should roll the save if you succeed use the Absorb fear but if you fail then you are immune anyway, but that sounds a bit munchkinny.
Sagetim
09-23-07, 05:11 PM That's kind of what I thought (which makes me wonder about all the Dread Witch/Nightmare spinner builds I see :confused: )

I still wonder if you can "choose" to supress a "Supernatural ability" rendering yourself vulnerable on purpose (like suppressing spell resistance so you can benifit from a spell) ?

no you can't. And being Supernatural, I think it would be suppressed in an Antimagic Zone.

It's really hyper cheap to use something like that. In fact, it would detract from the game if you did that. And you can't suppress a supernatural ability. You can do that with spell resist, but that's spell resist.
nighttree
09-23-07, 06:23 PM So why all the Dread Witch/Nightmare spinner builds ?

Basically the first level of Nightmare Spinner renders your Dread Witch abilities useless :confused:

I suppose I could just remove the "Fear Immunity" from the Nightmare Spinner....that solves everything.
runestar
09-24-07, 10:06 AM So why all the Dread Witch/Nightmare spinner builds ?

Basically the first level of Nightmare Spinner renders your Dread Witch abilities useless

I suppose I could just remove the "Fear Immunity" from the Nightmare Spinner....that solves everything.

I did some snooping around the CO boards. It seems that the fear immunity is not meant to have any synergy with the absorb fear ability at all. The main draws are its other special abilities.

So the combination's prowess is derived in spite of these 2 abilities negating each other, not because of them somehow complementing each other via some obscure interaction of the rules. In light of this, I retract my earlier statement, since it was partially due to my admitably incomplete understanding of how the combination worked as well.:embarrass
StruckingFuggle
09-24-07, 01:59 PM No, so says the designer.

The designer being you, or the designers of DnD - and if so, got quote?
Witch
09-24-07, 02:01 PM I don't claim to speak from the perspective of WotC designers. I do mean me, as well as I mean a designer of D&D, also me. Just because I don't bother to try and get myself published doesn't mean I'm not a designer.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nighttree 09-19-07, 12:33 PM	I have been looking at the "Dread Witch" (HoH), and the "Nightmare Spinner" (CM), and I'm having a problem judging the interaction of the two classes. The Dread witch has an ability called "Absorb Fear" which allows her to increase her caster level when "exposed" to a fear effect (if she succeeds on her will save to resist the effect). However the Nightmare Spinner gains "immunity" to fear effects at 1st level. Does immunity count as automatically making your save ? Or does it completely negate the "Absorb Fear" ability ? EDIT: Another question, if the "immunity to fear" negates the absorption, as a (Su) ability can I choose to suppress it ? I looked through the DMG, PH, and MM, but can't really find a specific definition on "immunity". Any help ?
goawayugh 09-19-07, 12:41 PM	I looked up fire immunity in the D&D Glossary. It says that the creature "never takes fire damage". If you were immune to fear, then you would never be exposed to it, and therefore not be able to absorb it.
nighttree 09-19-07, 12:52 PM	I looked up fire immunity in the D&D Glossary. It says that the creature "never takes fire damage". If you were immune to fear, then you would never be exposed to it, and therefore not be able to absorb it. That's kind of what I thought (which makes me wonder about all the Dread Witch/Nightmare spinner builds I see :confused: ) I still wonder if you can "choose" to supress a "Supernatural ability" rendering yourself vulnerable on purpose (like suppressing spell resistance so you can benifit from a spell) ?
nighttree 09-20-07, 12:01 AM	WOW....no other opinions ???
runestar 09-21-07, 12:22 AM	I would say that exposure and affecting are 2 separate things. You can be exposed to fire, but not take any damage by virtue of your fire immunity, IMO. For example, I believe while you might be immune to fear, you could nonetheless choose to let yourself affected by said spell. The effect would be no different, in that saves would be automatically made, damage would all be prevented etc. Thus, while the fear effect ultimately has no "effect" on you, you would still have been exposed to a fear effect for all purposes and intents of interacting with absorb fear. But for ease of gameplay, it makes no sense to go through the motions of being affected by said spell, then claiming to be unaffected by it, when you could just declare that you are outright immune to it from the start and save all that fuss, which is why few, if any players ever use the aforementioned method, though I would argue that it is actually the proper "channel to follow". Too cheesy an interpretation?:P
forsaken1111 09-22-07, 03:41 PM	From what I read, the dread witch's abilities work by focusing the fear she is feeling to empower her abilities. If she isn't feeling the fear, how can she utilize it?
runestar 09-22-07, 09:52 PM	From what I read, the dread witch's abilities work by focusing the fear she is feeling to empower her abilities. If she isn't feeling the fear, how can she utilize it? Because fluff and mechanics are 2 completely separate things.:P
Kuro_Khan 09-23-07, 12:30 AM	Because fluff and mechanics are 2 completely separate things.:P But when you start to separate these things, you descend into the valley of the munchkins...
runestar 09-23-07, 08:50 AM	But when you start to separate these things, you descend into the valley of the munchkins... Perhaps, but I do seem to recall reading such a clause somewhere, perhaps in the PHB or DMG, which mentions something about immunity and the equivalent of automatically making your saves. This makes me wonder if as per the rules, you still go through the motions of the spell affecting you (and checking your sr, saves, hp etc), just that you end up making each of them if you are immune. People would simply skip these steps, but still...
Witch 09-23-07, 01:01 PM	Because fluff and mechanics are 2 completely separate things.:P That's where you're wrong, ofcourse.
StruckingFuggle 09-23-07, 04:50 PM	That's where you're wrong, ofcourse. "So says the DM who's never made his own flavor"?
Witch 09-23-07, 04:58 PM	"So says the DM who's never made his own flavor"? No, so says the designer. Fluff and mechanics are equally important, and should intermingle when designing. Fluff without mechanics makes no game, while mechanics without fluff are hollow and empty.
Malchius 09-23-07, 05:06 PM	Maybe you should roll the save if you succeed use the Absorb fear but if you fail then you are immune anyway, but that sounds a bit munchkinny.
Sagetim 09-23-07, 05:11 PM	That's kind of what I thought (which makes me wonder about all the Dread Witch/Nightmare spinner builds I see :confused: ) I still wonder if you can "choose" to supress a "Supernatural ability" rendering yourself vulnerable on purpose (like suppressing spell resistance so you can benifit from a spell) ? no you can't. And being Supernatural, I think it would be suppressed in an Antimagic Zone. It's really hyper cheap to use something like that. In fact, it would detract from the game if you did that. And you can't suppress a supernatural ability. You can do that with spell resist, but that's spell resist.
nighttree 09-23-07, 06:23 PM	So why all the Dread Witch/Nightmare spinner builds ? Basically the first level of Nightmare Spinner renders your Dread Witch abilities useless :confused: I suppose I could just remove the "Fear Immunity" from the Nightmare Spinner....that solves everything.
runestar 09-24-07, 10:06 AM	So why all the Dread Witch/Nightmare spinner builds ? Basically the first level of Nightmare Spinner renders your Dread Witch abilities useless I suppose I could just remove the "Fear Immunity" from the Nightmare Spinner....that solves everything. I did some snooping around the CO boards. It seems that the fear immunity is not meant to have any synergy with the absorb fear ability at all. The main draws are its other special abilities. So the combination's prowess is derived in spite of these 2 abilities negating each other, not because of them somehow complementing each other via some obscure interaction of the rules. In light of this, I retract my earlier statement, since it was partially due to my admitably incomplete understanding of how the combination worked as well.:embarrass
StruckingFuggle 09-24-07, 01:59 PM	No, so says the designer. The designer being you, or the designers of DnD - and if so, got quote?
Witch 09-24-07, 02:01 PM	I don't claim to speak from the perspective of WotC designers. I do mean me, as well as I mean a designer of D&D, also me. Just because I don't bother to try and get myself published doesn't mean I'm not a designer.