Initiate of the sevenfold veil / Unanswerable strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Initiate of the sevenfold veil / Unanswerable strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xadar Khan
04-05-07, 07:51 AM Citing the manual:

"[...] she gains a +2 on caster level checks to counter or dispel abjuration spells. [...]"

the bonus becomes +4 at 4th level of the sevenfold veil initiate

Now when I counter or dispel I make a DISPEL CHECK that is 1d20+CASTER LEVEL.
For dispel magic the CASTER LEVEL maxes out at 10 (1d20+CASTER LEVEL, max +10)
For greater dispel it maxes out at 20.

When I am, for example, a Abjurer 3/ Master specialist 10 / Sevenfold 7 and try to dispel/counter, do I get a 1d20+20+4 or is the +4 bonus lost due to the limits?

My opinion:
Master specialist gives a "+2 bonus to caster level" in my school, that is lost due to the limit of dispel magic, but is useful in other abjuration spells.
Sevenfold gives a "+4 bonus to caster level check for countering or dispelling", if that is lost due to limits in dispel magic well... it becomes utterly useless as a bonus (at least if you don't lose some caster level in some PrC or are still low level or cast Reave Dispel, limit 25).

What do you think is the right interpretation of the rule? Is that bonus lost or not?
CantripN
04-05-07, 08:08 AM I'd say you add in on top of the normal result, same as the Master Specialist Esoterica for Abjurers.
Xadar Khan
04-05-07, 08:22 AM Other opinions? Only one opinion on my side is not enough to get my DM think that way.... :-(
CantripN
04-05-07, 08:24 AM Other opinions? Only one opinion on my side is not enough to get my DM think that way.... :-(

Patience, Little Grasshopper...
Xadar Khan
04-05-07, 08:28 AM And patience I will have... master. ^_^
Xadar Khan
04-05-07, 08:39 AM Arcane mastery:
You can take 10 on caster level checks.

So the dispel check is a caster level check, a caster level check is the roll of the die, not the CASTER LEVEL you sum to it, so the bonus is to the dice roll, and so...CASTERS.... FEAR ME!!!
CantripN
04-05-07, 09:02 AM Arcane mastery:
You can take 10 on caster level checks.

So the dispel check is a caster level check, a caster level check is the roll of the die, not the CASTER LEVEL you sum to it, so the bonus is to the dice roll, and so...CASTERS.... FEAR ME!!!

That... is a good point.
Mystic Theurge
04-05-07, 07:05 PM Let's examine the class for a moment. In order to become an Iot7FV, a caster must be at least 9th level first, and would become a 10th level caster when entering into the class. This maxes out Dispel Magic, so if the +2 bonus you get on CL checks for being in the PRC does not stack with your levels if the CL check is maxed out, that benefit isn't a benefit at all, so who in their right mind would EVER take that PRC? My opinion is that you do get the bonus even when your CL check is maxed out. I believe there is precident for this.

An example would be the healer class. When a healer casts CLW, they get to add their CHA bonus to any cure spell they cast. Say it's a 5th level healer with a 14 CHA. That character would cast CLW spells at 1d8+7 (not +5). CminorW would heal 3 HP, not 1.

On the other hand, let's look at the Healing domain. It adds 1 level to the caster's effective level when casting healing spells, so it would cap out at the max.

If the Iot7FV class said that your caster level is treated as 2 higher (and later 4 higher), then your DM would have an argument. But it says you get a bonus to your check, so the cap does not apply, IMO.
Captain_Kobold
04-05-07, 08:24 PM As far as I can read it, unanswerable strike does not give a bonus to your caster level (which is maxed out at +10 or +20) but instrad acts as a bonus to your caster level check. Thus it would stack.

Hmmp. As Mystic Theurge pointed out earlier. Only just spotted that. :doh:

Since the bonus only applies when countering or dispelling abjuration spells, its not going to break the game. (Might help you remove magical traps, but won't help stopping that fireball or removing most of that evil mage's buffs.)
Xadar Khan
04-06-07, 06:21 AM As far as I can read it, unanswerable strike does not give a bonus to your caster level (which is maxed out at +10 or +20) but instrad acts as a bonus to your caster level check. Thus it would stack.

Hmmp. As Mystic Theurge pointed out earlier. Only just spotted that. :doh:

Since the bonus only applies when countering or dispelling abjuration spells, its not going to break the game. (Might help you remove magical traps, but won't help stopping that fireball or removing most of that evil mage's buffs.)
+4 against abjuration AND reaving dispel... that will doom enemy spellcasters... and doom them a lot. ^_^

With Reaving Dispel/Greater Dispel it's 5(master specialist esoterica)+20(lvl)+4(IotSV)+1d20 (let's take 10 with arcane mastery) = 39 VS a DC of 31 (or 35 with a ring whose name I don't recall).
And with Reaving Dispel I get control of those Spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xadar Khan 04-05-07, 07:51 AM	Citing the manual: "[...] she gains a +2 on caster level checks to counter or dispel abjuration spells. [...]" the bonus becomes +4 at 4th level of the sevenfold veil initiate Now when I counter or dispel I make a DISPEL CHECK that is 1d20+CASTER LEVEL. For dispel magic the CASTER LEVEL maxes out at 10 (1d20+CASTER LEVEL, max +10) For greater dispel it maxes out at 20. When I am, for example, a Abjurer 3/ Master specialist 10 / Sevenfold 7 and try to dispel/counter, do I get a 1d20+20+4 or is the +4 bonus lost due to the limits? My opinion: Master specialist gives a "+2 bonus to caster level" in my school, that is lost due to the limit of dispel magic, but is useful in other abjuration spells. Sevenfold gives a "+4 bonus to caster level check for countering or dispelling", if that is lost due to limits in dispel magic well... it becomes utterly useless as a bonus (at least if you don't lose some caster level in some PrC or are still low level or cast Reave Dispel, limit 25). What do you think is the right interpretation of the rule? Is that bonus lost or not?
CantripN 04-05-07, 08:08 AM	I'd say you add in on top of the normal result, same as the Master Specialist Esoterica for Abjurers.
Xadar Khan 04-05-07, 08:22 AM	Other opinions? Only one opinion on my side is not enough to get my DM think that way.... :-(
CantripN 04-05-07, 08:24 AM	Other opinions? Only one opinion on my side is not enough to get my DM think that way.... :-( Patience, Little Grasshopper...
Xadar Khan 04-05-07, 08:28 AM	And patience I will have... master. ^_^
Xadar Khan 04-05-07, 08:39 AM	Arcane mastery: You can take 10 on caster level checks. So the dispel check is a caster level check, a caster level check is the roll of the die, not the CASTER LEVEL you sum to it, so the bonus is to the dice roll, and so...CASTERS.... FEAR ME!!!
CantripN 04-05-07, 09:02 AM	Arcane mastery: You can take 10 on caster level checks. So the dispel check is a caster level check, a caster level check is the roll of the die, not the CASTER LEVEL you sum to it, so the bonus is to the dice roll, and so...CASTERS.... FEAR ME!!! That... is a good point.
Mystic Theurge 04-05-07, 07:05 PM	Let's examine the class for a moment. In order to become an Iot7FV, a caster must be at least 9th level first, and would become a 10th level caster when entering into the class. This maxes out Dispel Magic, so if the +2 bonus you get on CL checks for being in the PRC does not stack with your levels if the CL check is maxed out, that benefit isn't a benefit at all, so who in their right mind would EVER take that PRC? My opinion is that you do get the bonus even when your CL check is maxed out. I believe there is precident for this. An example would be the healer class. When a healer casts CLW, they get to add their CHA bonus to any cure spell they cast. Say it's a 5th level healer with a 14 CHA. That character would cast CLW spells at 1d8+7 (not +5). CminorW would heal 3 HP, not 1. On the other hand, let's look at the Healing domain. It adds 1 level to the caster's effective level when casting healing spells, so it would cap out at the max. If the Iot7FV class said that your caster level is treated as 2 higher (and later 4 higher), then your DM would have an argument. But it says you get a bonus to your check, so the cap does not apply, IMO.
Captain_Kobold 04-05-07, 08:24 PM	As far as I can read it, unanswerable strike does not give a bonus to your caster level (which is maxed out at +10 or +20) but instrad acts as a bonus to your caster level check. Thus it would stack. Hmmp. As Mystic Theurge pointed out earlier. Only just spotted that. :doh: Since the bonus only applies when countering or dispelling abjuration spells, its not going to break the game. (Might help you remove magical traps, but won't help stopping that fireball or removing most of that evil mage's buffs.)
Xadar Khan 04-06-07, 06:21 AM	As far as I can read it, unanswerable strike does not give a bonus to your caster level (which is maxed out at +10 or +20) but instrad acts as a bonus to your caster level check. Thus it would stack. Hmmp. As Mystic Theurge pointed out earlier. Only just spotted that. :doh: Since the bonus only applies when countering or dispelling abjuration spells, its not going to break the game. (Might help you remove magical traps, but won't help stopping that fireball or removing most of that evil mage's buffs.) +4 against abjuration AND reaving dispel... that will doom enemy spellcasters... and doom them a lot. ^_^ With Reaving Dispel/Greater Dispel it's 5(master specialist esoterica)+20(lvl)+4(IotSV)+1d20 (let's take 10 with arcane mastery) = 39 VS a DC of 31 (or 35 with a ring whose name I don't recall). And with Reaving Dispel I get control of those Spells.