Is just being an ur-priest enough to maintain evil alignment or does it require more? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is just being an ur-priest enough to maintain evil alignment or does it require more? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
06-05-07, 06:35 PM I'm wondering -- let's say you're an ur-priest. Your alignment is evil, etc. No problems there (can we avoid too much trouble on this point?).

What I'm wondering is -- your method of doing magic is supposed to be innately evil, so can you pretty much keep your evil alignment so long as you wield magic, or do you have to be evil in more mundane ways as well?

For example, say you (temporarily?) retire to some village. You grow to like the people there, so you use your stolen divine magic to heal the sick, keep the weather good, using divinations to answer questions regarding mysteries and solve crimes, etc. In short, you're doing thing what, if you were an archivist, cleric, or the like, would be regarded as perfectly morally acceptable, and even good.

Now, do you:

1) Keep your evil alignment, because you're still using innately evil methods of acquiring your magical power, and keep your spellcasting.

2) Switch alignments to something non-evil, and lose your ur-priest spellcasting power, or

3) Switch alignments to something non-evil, keep your spellcasting power, but become unable to take any further levels in ur-priest, much like a bard who becomes lawful?

I think that 1) seems to be the most in the spirit of the class -- you don't get your power from being evil; rather, you're evil because of how you get your power, so the only way an ur-priest would "fall" and become non-evil would be to stop preparing and casting spells as an ur-priest and act in a mundanely non-evil manner -- and even then, although incapable of advancing ur-priest casting, he could go back to casting ur-priest spells and quickly reacquire the evil alignment, so long as he didn't lose the ur-priest levels.

What's your interpretation, though?
Starmage21
06-05-07, 07:19 PM stealing divine power that the gods dont really miss anyway(it takes no effort on part of the god to grant spells according to D&DG) is hardly an evil act.

It may be that only the evil are inclined to become ur-priests and steal their power simply for the fact that its easy enough to just become a cleric with no patron diety.

If your local Ur-Priest is evil, he is likely to teach what he knows to a like-minded individual. In the event that that like-minded individual changes in alignment, I doubt he would forget how to steal power for his spells, but would no longer be inclined to do so.

We have plenty of examples of heroes using evil power to further the ends of a good cause. Usually, theyre anti-heroes.
Mr_Teapot
06-05-07, 07:46 PM stealing divine power that the gods dont really miss anyway(it takes no effort on part of the god to grant spells according to D&DG) is hardly an evil act.

I keep arguing that stealing from the gods is an inherently Chaotic act and the Ur-Priest should have a Chaotic alignment restriction, or none at all.

As written, the Ur-Priest only has Alignment: Evil as an entry requirement, no text like a bard has specifically stating you need to keep the alignment to advance in the class or use its abilties. So changing alignment comes down to the often repeated question of "what happens if you no longer meet the entry requirements for a PrC you have levels in?" The question you're asking, though, seems to be how evil an act Ur-Priest spellcasting is, which is as far as I know undefined, unless the Ur-Priest is specifically trying to take advantage of their Spell Focus [Evil] feat by casting as many spells as possible with an [evil] descriptor.
Jaxgaret
06-06-07, 12:09 AM From a fluff standpoint, I think the division between options 1 and 2 can be interpreted in pretty much any fashion a player and DM agree upon.

However, having said that, there is one other requirement of the Ur-Priest that you didn't mention - that of Spell Focus (Evil), a feat that itself has a prerequisite of an Evil alignment. If an Ur-Priest loses it Evil alignment status, it no longer has access to the Spell Focus (Evil) feat, and thus loses all its Ur-Priest casting.
Starmage21
06-06-07, 10:30 AM you can be any nongood to cast spells with the evil descriptor.

Spell Focus: [Evil] has an alignment requirement?
n00dle_king
06-06-07, 02:35 PM I wouldn't say that stealing spells off the top is an evil act on its own so if your saving orphans and having bake sales you could end up getting your alignment bumped.

Spell focus has no prerequisites according to the SRD by the way.
JulesCARV
06-08-07, 01:39 PM I wouldn't say that stealing spells off the top is an evil act on its own so if your saving orphans and having bake sales you could end up getting your alignment bumped.

So, according to your view, what happens to an Ur-Priest who becomes non-evil? Loses casting? Maintains casting, but cannot advance? Nothing at all?
Treymordin
06-08-07, 02:32 PM You are evil in what your character does or does not do.
Puca
06-08-07, 02:40 PM There are two separate issues here:
1) Is what the ur-priest does, stealing spells, innately evil?
2) What if he is evil, but acts in non-evil ways?

For question number 1, I think we have to say yes, not because it is necessarily true, but because thats what the guy who designed the class seemed to have thought.

Question number 2 seems, to me, backwards. Your description was a guy who is evil because he does something evil. Backwards.

He does evil things because hes evil. Not the other way around.

The reason the ur-priest is ok with stealing spells and power from the gods is because he is evil.

Since he is already evil, the question is not “what happens if he starts doing some good things;” its why is an evil person doing these so-called “good” things? (For my part, I could still see an evil character doing all the things you described.)
Averroes
06-08-07, 02:49 PM You can still do those things and be evil.
Solve crimes. Ok take all the suspects and torture then until one fesses up.
For your services for the people around you they should also help you out as well.
Weather control, but since your doing them a service you should get a cut of thier harvest. you need to eat too.
Divinations: You do have to pay a fortune teller. Even good clerics would ask for something.

Unless the DM wants them to the Peasents wouldn't resent you. They would probally respect you and like you.

And any outside threat should probally be dealt with in a frightenly ruthless manner. As well as anyone who does not hold to thier end of the bargin.

I would say a LE character would have no problem doing these things.
Jaxgaret
06-08-07, 05:53 PM Spell Focus: [Evil] has an alignment requirement?

Spell focus has no prerequisites according to the SRD by the way.

Crack open the Complete Divine. Take a look at the feat.

After you read it and you see that I was correct [it says Prerequisite: Relevant alignment], feel free to come back here and let me know.

Spell Focus (School) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spellFocus) from the SRD applies to any school of magic only, and is not the same feat as Spell Focus (Alignment)
Kevin Andrew Murphy
06-08-07, 09:58 PM I think we've got a theological question here. We've accepted it as a given that it is evil to steal power from the gods. The question then becomes, is it still evil if you steal it with their blessing?

I mean, think about it. Somewhere on a cloud the Goddess of Mercy gets a random prayer "Oh thank you, wonderful goddess, for sending your priest to heal our village!"

*Not one of my priests* thinks the goddess, looking down from her cloud and wondering whose it is so she can thank them for having done her a favor. Then she finds an Ur Priest busily embezzling the power of the gods and using it to heal orphans and bless the neighbor's tomato garden.

The goddess shrugs. *Oh well, don't ask, don't tell.* Nice to see someone doing the good work. She thinks briefly about appearing in a vision or something, then decides it's a better idea to leave an anonymous divinely granted "Spell Focus [Good]" feat lying around somewhere where the Ur Priest will notice it.

It must really gripe even the actively evil Ur Priests that somewhere up there there are gods who approve of their actions.
Dyne
06-09-07, 01:42 AM what happens if you no longer meet the entry requirements for a PrC you have levels in?

I believe you lose everything you gained from the PrC, other than hit points, skill points, BAB, base saves, etc. Same if you no longer meet the prerequisites of a feat.
Elana
06-09-07, 02:06 AM Hm, the SRD only mentions : characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.

or in other words, the class keeps working.
(You just can't get the first level again, but that's okay, you couldn't do that anyway :) )
Marcus Majarra
06-09-07, 03:11 AM Complete Warrior (p16) and the FAQ further clarified the loss of special abilities and class features when no longer meeting the requirements for a PrC.
Dyne
06-09-07, 03:18 AM Complete Warrior (p16) and the FAQ further clarified the loss of special abilities and class features when no longer meeting the requirements for a PrC.

I knew I read it somewhere, thanks for pointing it out.
Kevin Andrew Murphy
06-09-07, 04:55 AM Well, it's a clarification, yes, but you also have to apply logic to it. If you read the Ur Priest description, you have to learn the methods from another Ur Priest, and you have to have Malign Spell Focus & Iron Will in addition to an evil alignment.

Question is, who gets to define "evil"? The gods? The Ur Priest spits on the gods, dances on their fallen temples and picks their pockets for loose spells. Is that evil enough for you? The Ur Priest defines his own morality, thank you very much, and if that includes healing orphans, growing tomatoes and keeping a fluffy orange kitten named Mr. Sacrilege, so be it.

Rather than talk about "non-evil" Ur Priests, perhaps we should talk about "enlightened" or just plain "nice" ones, who still think that all the gods should go up against the wall eventually, but have tempered their deicidal urges somewhat and have decided that first they're going to take out the ones who cause pain and suffering for no good reason (the so called "evil" gods) as opposed to the other gods who cause pain and suffering via sheer incompetence (the good and neutral deities). Mr. Sacrilege agrees. And look--your old antagonist Sir Godfrey the Paladin has become the somewhat more realistic Sir Godfrey the Gray Guard and he's planning an expedition to Hell to bump off Asmodeus. That sounds like fun. Can anyone play, or do you have to mount your own expedition for show purposes and meet up en route, banding together for practicality and a shared enemy?

It's probably a moot point anyway. So long as deicide is defined as "evil" and stealing from the gods is "evil," you're going to be evil enough for anyone, regardless of the number of healed orphans, home-grown tomatoes and fluffy kittens you name Mr. Sacrilege.
SlanderPanic
06-10-07, 12:44 PM Kevin's basically made all of my own points here, so I'll just say this: I don't think this is one of those occasions wherein there's a definite answer. The fact of the matter is that good and evil are defined by motivation. If an ur-priest is performing good acts entirely out of self-interest, then he's being evil. If he's doing it for selfless reasons, then he's being good.

Ur-priests' theft of magic stems from their hatred of deities. The hatred is their motivation for wanting to spit in the faces of the gods. A good ur-priest may choose to steal magic only from evil gods, figuring that every spell he intercepts is a spell some servitor of sin doesn't get to use. He's probably still a hardcore antitheist, regardless, figuring the gods should keep their noses out of mortal affairs.

I don't see why an ur-priest who has an alignment change can't simply retrain to Spell Focus (X) next time he gains a level and continue to advance.

By the way, wizards make fun ur-priests. Because of the save requirements, a wizard can't qualify for the class until 9th level (taking ur-priest 1 at 10th level,) but they have a much easier time meeting the rather massive skill requirements and continue to benefit from their arcane spellcasting ability as they advance. (In addition, wizard caster levels increase the ur-priest's divine caster level.)
Jaxgaret
06-10-07, 01:00 PM I don't see why an ur-priest who has an alignment change can't simply retrain to Spell Focus (X) next time he gains a level and continue to advance.

If you houserule Ur-Priests to have a requirement of Spell Focus (any Alignment), not Spell Focus (Evil), then that'll work just fine.

By the way, wizards make fun ur-priests. Because of the save requirements, a wizard can't qualify for the class until 9th level (taking ur-priest 1 at 10th level,) but they have a much easier time meeting the rather massive skill requirements and continue to benefit from their arcane spellcasting ability as they advance. (In addition, wizard caster levels increase the ur-priest's divine caster level.)

I'm partial to Bard4/Fort1 entering into Ur-Priest. Fort is any class with a good Fort save; take your pick!

My responses in bold.
Kevin Andrew Murphy
06-10-07, 03:07 PM The trouble is, everything becomes a House Rule, since every house has house rulings as to what defines Evil or for that matter any alignment. Getting DMs to agree on the subject is like getting gods to agree on the subject: What in the hell is Evil anyway, and when we require someone to be Evil to get something, are we talking Blackguard-grade unadulterated wickedness or just the wicked pawnbroker down the street, who mercilessly collects debts and sells dreams but gives fluffy kittens to his daughter and still brings roses to his wife?

So we have an argument among the gods/DMs: "You're not requiring your Ur Priests to be sufficiently wicked" "Oh yeah? Well at least I'm not requiring them to be cartoonishly wicked."

Honestly, all DMs pick and choose. I'd allow an Ur Priest in my game, and in fact may design one up as an NPC, but the creation myth from the BoVD, the one about the people who look just like humans but are cartoonishly wicked and their only unifying social factor is their desire to kill the gods? I giggle maniacally about that and toss it out the window--at best, that's what some bard with an insane Bluff check came up with when asked to explain the origin of the Ur Priests. The explanation I go with? Something more logical and prosaic: Priests and mystics are used to getting spells via prayer and meditation; go live in a monastery and with a high enough Concentration check while in trance, you too may notice the streams of other prayers going on around you; get cut off by your god but have Iron Will? You too might be able to intercept someone else's divine guidance.

As I see it, the Ur Priests came about after enough defrocked priests, fallen monks and research-crazed loremasters got together for a gripe session and hit upon the idea of stealing power from the gods, but were smart enough to do it as embezzling and skimming the books. And they've been doing this since ancient Ur, hence the name. And since then, they've become somewhat of a franchise operation.

The main requirements to become an Ur Priest, as I see it, are the Iron Will to have the nerve to steal from the gods and being able to convince another Ur Priest to teach you the secrets. Malign Spell Focus? That's the training wheel all the Ur Priests start with. You couldn't conceivably use something else, but they haven't done any research to that end. Maybe the priests of ancient Mu did if you wanted to do a quest, but then you'd be a Mu Priest, not an Ur Priest. As for the Eeevil business, I go with the following:

UR PRIEST: Do you swear a solemn oath that you are Eeevil?
APPLICANT: Swear? By who? On what? Isn't the whole point of this that we don't respect any god, any power, any morality but our own?
UR PRIEST: You passed the final test! Welcome to the Ur Priests!

As for the "kill the gods" business, as I rule it, some Ur Priests are fanatically into that idea while others have succeeded on a basic Knowledge Religion roll, and have realized that, while many folk worship anthropomorphized deities with hearts for convenient stabbing, it's not like killing gods seems to do much good, given the number of Risen Saviours out there where the central point of their myths is that they die but then get better, so gacking them a second time would probably just lead to a religious revival. And then there are druids who worship everything from woodland sprites to the sun and the moon. Surely there are more productive things to do than hunting flower fairies or trying to put out the sun? Maybe just steal the power from them?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 06-05-07, 06:35 PM	I'm wondering -- let's say you're an ur-priest. Your alignment is evil, etc. No problems there (can we avoid too much trouble on this point?). What I'm wondering is -- your method of doing magic is supposed to be innately evil, so can you pretty much keep your evil alignment so long as you wield magic, or do you have to be evil in more mundane ways as well? For example, say you (temporarily?) retire to some village. You grow to like the people there, so you use your stolen divine magic to heal the sick, keep the weather good, using divinations to answer questions regarding mysteries and solve crimes, etc. In short, you're doing thing what, if you were an archivist, cleric, or the like, would be regarded as perfectly morally acceptable, and even good. Now, do you: 1) Keep your evil alignment, because you're still using innately evil methods of acquiring your magical power, and keep your spellcasting. 2) Switch alignments to something non-evil, and lose your ur-priest spellcasting power, or 3) Switch alignments to something non-evil, keep your spellcasting power, but become unable to take any further levels in ur-priest, much like a bard who becomes lawful? I think that 1) seems to be the most in the spirit of the class -- you don't get your power from being evil; rather, you're evil because of how you get your power, so the only way an ur-priest would "fall" and become non-evil would be to stop preparing and casting spells as an ur-priest and act in a mundanely non-evil manner -- and even then, although incapable of advancing ur-priest casting, he could go back to casting ur-priest spells and quickly reacquire the evil alignment, so long as he didn't lose the ur-priest levels. What's your interpretation, though?
Starmage21 06-05-07, 07:19 PM	stealing divine power that the gods dont really miss anyway(it takes no effort on part of the god to grant spells according to D&DG) is hardly an evil act. It may be that only the evil are inclined to become ur-priests and steal their power simply for the fact that its easy enough to just become a cleric with no patron diety. If your local Ur-Priest is evil, he is likely to teach what he knows to a like-minded individual. In the event that that like-minded individual changes in alignment, I doubt he would forget how to steal power for his spells, but would no longer be inclined to do so. We have plenty of examples of heroes using evil power to further the ends of a good cause. Usually, theyre anti-heroes.
Mr_Teapot 06-05-07, 07:46 PM	stealing divine power that the gods dont really miss anyway(it takes no effort on part of the god to grant spells according to D&DG) is hardly an evil act. I keep arguing that stealing from the gods is an inherently Chaotic act and the Ur-Priest should have a Chaotic alignment restriction, or none at all. As written, the Ur-Priest only has Alignment: Evil as an entry requirement, no text like a bard has specifically stating you need to keep the alignment to advance in the class or use its abilties. So changing alignment comes down to the often repeated question of "what happens if you no longer meet the entry requirements for a PrC you have levels in?" The question you're asking, though, seems to be how evil an act Ur-Priest spellcasting is, which is as far as I know undefined, unless the Ur-Priest is specifically trying to take advantage of their Spell Focus [Evil] feat by casting as many spells as possible with an [evil] descriptor.
Jaxgaret 06-06-07, 12:09 AM	From a fluff standpoint, I think the division between options 1 and 2 can be interpreted in pretty much any fashion a player and DM agree upon. However, having said that, there is one other requirement of the Ur-Priest that you didn't mention - that of Spell Focus (Evil), a feat that itself has a prerequisite of an Evil alignment. If an Ur-Priest loses it Evil alignment status, it no longer has access to the Spell Focus (Evil) feat, and thus loses all its Ur-Priest casting.
Starmage21 06-06-07, 10:30 AM	you can be any nongood to cast spells with the evil descriptor. Spell Focus: [Evil] has an alignment requirement?
n00dle_king 06-06-07, 02:35 PM	I wouldn't say that stealing spells off the top is an evil act on its own so if your saving orphans and having bake sales you could end up getting your alignment bumped. Spell focus has no prerequisites according to the SRD by the way.
JulesCARV 06-08-07, 01:39 PM	I wouldn't say that stealing spells off the top is an evil act on its own so if your saving orphans and having bake sales you could end up getting your alignment bumped. So, according to your view, what happens to an Ur-Priest who becomes non-evil? Loses casting? Maintains casting, but cannot advance? Nothing at all?
Treymordin 06-08-07, 02:32 PM	You are evil in what your character does or does not do.
Puca 06-08-07, 02:40 PM	There are two separate issues here: 1) Is what the ur-priest does, stealing spells, innately evil? 2) What if he is evil, but acts in non-evil ways? For question number 1, I think we have to say yes, not because it is necessarily true, but because thats what the guy who designed the class seemed to have thought. Question number 2 seems, to me, backwards. Your description was a guy who is evil because he does something evil. Backwards. He does evil things because hes evil. Not the other way around. The reason the ur-priest is ok with stealing spells and power from the gods is because he is evil. Since he is already evil, the question is not “what happens if he starts doing some good things;” its why is an evil person doing these so-called “good” things? (For my part, I could still see an evil character doing all the things you described.)
Averroes 06-08-07, 02:49 PM	You can still do those things and be evil. Solve crimes. Ok take all the suspects and torture then until one fesses up. For your services for the people around you they should also help you out as well. Weather control, but since your doing them a service you should get a cut of thier harvest. you need to eat too. Divinations: You do have to pay a fortune teller. Even good clerics would ask for something. Unless the DM wants them to the Peasents wouldn't resent you. They would probally respect you and like you. And any outside threat should probally be dealt with in a frightenly ruthless manner. As well as anyone who does not hold to thier end of the bargin. I would say a LE character would have no problem doing these things.
Jaxgaret 06-08-07, 05:53 PM	Spell Focus: [Evil] has an alignment requirement? Spell focus has no prerequisites according to the SRD by the way. Crack open the Complete Divine. Take a look at the feat. After you read it and you see that I was correct [it says Prerequisite: Relevant alignment], feel free to come back here and let me know. Spell Focus (School) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spellFocus) from the SRD applies to any school of magic only, and is not the same feat as Spell Focus (Alignment)
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-08-07, 09:58 PM	I think we've got a theological question here. We've accepted it as a given that it is evil to steal power from the gods. The question then becomes, is it still evil if you steal it with their blessing? I mean, think about it. Somewhere on a cloud the Goddess of Mercy gets a random prayer "Oh thank you, wonderful goddess, for sending your priest to heal our village!" Not one of my priests thinks the goddess, looking down from her cloud and wondering whose it is so she can thank them for having done her a favor. Then she finds an Ur Priest busily embezzling the power of the gods and using it to heal orphans and bless the neighbor's tomato garden. The goddess shrugs. Oh well, don't ask, don't tell. Nice to see someone doing the good work. She thinks briefly about appearing in a vision or something, then decides it's a better idea to leave an anonymous divinely granted "Spell Focus [Good]" feat lying around somewhere where the Ur Priest will notice it. It must really gripe even the actively evil Ur Priests that somewhere up there there are gods who approve of their actions.
Dyne 06-09-07, 01:42 AM	what happens if you no longer meet the entry requirements for a PrC you have levels in? I believe you lose everything you gained from the PrC, other than hit points, skill points, BAB, base saves, etc. Same if you no longer meet the prerequisites of a feat.
Elana 06-09-07, 02:06 AM	Hm, the SRD only mentions : characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. or in other words, the class keeps working. (You just can't get the first level again, but that's okay, you couldn't do that anyway :) )
Marcus Majarra 06-09-07, 03:11 AM	Complete Warrior (p16) and the FAQ further clarified the loss of special abilities and class features when no longer meeting the requirements for a PrC.
Dyne 06-09-07, 03:18 AM	Complete Warrior (p16) and the FAQ further clarified the loss of special abilities and class features when no longer meeting the requirements for a PrC. I knew I read it somewhere, thanks for pointing it out.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-09-07, 04:55 AM	Well, it's a clarification, yes, but you also have to apply logic to it. If you read the Ur Priest description, you have to learn the methods from another Ur Priest, and you have to have Malign Spell Focus & Iron Will in addition to an evil alignment. Question is, who gets to define "evil"? The gods? The Ur Priest spits on the gods, dances on their fallen temples and picks their pockets for loose spells. Is that evil enough for you? The Ur Priest defines his own morality, thank you very much, and if that includes healing orphans, growing tomatoes and keeping a fluffy orange kitten named Mr. Sacrilege, so be it. Rather than talk about "non-evil" Ur Priests, perhaps we should talk about "enlightened" or just plain "nice" ones, who still think that all the gods should go up against the wall eventually, but have tempered their deicidal urges somewhat and have decided that first they're going to take out the ones who cause pain and suffering for no good reason (the so called "evil" gods) as opposed to the other gods who cause pain and suffering via sheer incompetence (the good and neutral deities). Mr. Sacrilege agrees. And look--your old antagonist Sir Godfrey the Paladin has become the somewhat more realistic Sir Godfrey the Gray Guard and he's planning an expedition to Hell to bump off Asmodeus. That sounds like fun. Can anyone play, or do you have to mount your own expedition for show purposes and meet up en route, banding together for practicality and a shared enemy? It's probably a moot point anyway. So long as deicide is defined as "evil" and stealing from the gods is "evil," you're going to be evil enough for anyone, regardless of the number of healed orphans, home-grown tomatoes and fluffy kittens you name Mr. Sacrilege.
SlanderPanic 06-10-07, 12:44 PM	Kevin's basically made all of my own points here, so I'll just say this: I don't think this is one of those occasions wherein there's a definite answer. The fact of the matter is that good and evil are defined by motivation. If an ur-priest is performing good acts entirely out of self-interest, then he's being evil. If he's doing it for selfless reasons, then he's being good. Ur-priests' theft of magic stems from their hatred of deities. The hatred is their motivation for wanting to spit in the faces of the gods. A good ur-priest may choose to steal magic only from evil gods, figuring that every spell he intercepts is a spell some servitor of sin doesn't get to use. He's probably still a hardcore antitheist, regardless, figuring the gods should keep their noses out of mortal affairs. I don't see why an ur-priest who has an alignment change can't simply retrain to Spell Focus (X) next time he gains a level and continue to advance. By the way, wizards make fun ur-priests. Because of the save requirements, a wizard can't qualify for the class until 9th level (taking ur-priest 1 at 10th level,) but they have a much easier time meeting the rather massive skill requirements and continue to benefit from their arcane spellcasting ability as they advance. (In addition, wizard caster levels increase the ur-priest's divine caster level.)
Jaxgaret 06-10-07, 01:00 PM	I don't see why an ur-priest who has an alignment change can't simply retrain to Spell Focus (X) next time he gains a level and continue to advance. If you houserule Ur-Priests to have a requirement of Spell Focus (any Alignment), not Spell Focus (Evil), then that'll work just fine. By the way, wizards make fun ur-priests. Because of the save requirements, a wizard can't qualify for the class until 9th level (taking ur-priest 1 at 10th level,) but they have a much easier time meeting the rather massive skill requirements and continue to benefit from their arcane spellcasting ability as they advance. (In addition, wizard caster levels increase the ur-priest's divine caster level.) I'm partial to Bard4/Fort1 entering into Ur-Priest. Fort is any class with a good Fort save; take your pick! My responses in bold.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-10-07, 03:07 PM	The trouble is, everything becomes a House Rule, since every house has house rulings as to what defines Evil or for that matter any alignment. Getting DMs to agree on the subject is like getting gods to agree on the subject: What in the hell is Evil anyway, and when we require someone to be Evil to get something, are we talking Blackguard-grade unadulterated wickedness or just the wicked pawnbroker down the street, who mercilessly collects debts and sells dreams but gives fluffy kittens to his daughter and still brings roses to his wife? So we have an argument among the gods/DMs: "You're not requiring your Ur Priests to be sufficiently wicked" "Oh yeah? Well at least I'm not requiring them to be cartoonishly wicked." Honestly, all DMs pick and choose. I'd allow an Ur Priest in my game, and in fact may design one up as an NPC, but the creation myth from the BoVD, the one about the people who look just like humans but are cartoonishly wicked and their only unifying social factor is their desire to kill the gods? I giggle maniacally about that and toss it out the window--at best, that's what some bard with an insane Bluff check came up with when asked to explain the origin of the Ur Priests. The explanation I go with? Something more logical and prosaic: Priests and mystics are used to getting spells via prayer and meditation; go live in a monastery and with a high enough Concentration check while in trance, you too may notice the streams of other prayers going on around you; get cut off by your god but have Iron Will? You too might be able to intercept someone else's divine guidance. As I see it, the Ur Priests came about after enough defrocked priests, fallen monks and research-crazed loremasters got together for a gripe session and hit upon the idea of stealing power from the gods, but were smart enough to do it as embezzling and skimming the books. And they've been doing this since ancient Ur, hence the name. And since then, they've become somewhat of a franchise operation. The main requirements to become an Ur Priest, as I see it, are the Iron Will to have the nerve to steal from the gods and being able to convince another Ur Priest to teach you the secrets. Malign Spell Focus? That's the training wheel all the Ur Priests start with. You couldn't conceivably use something else, but they haven't done any research to that end. Maybe the priests of ancient Mu did if you wanted to do a quest, but then you'd be a Mu Priest, not an Ur Priest. As for the Eeevil business, I go with the following: UR PRIEST: Do you swear a solemn oath that you are Eeevil? APPLICANT: Swear? By who? On what? Isn't the whole point of this that we don't respect any god, any power, any morality but our own? UR PRIEST: You passed the final test! Welcome to the Ur Priests! As for the "kill the gods" business, as I rule it, some Ur Priests are fanatically into that idea while others have succeeded on a basic Knowledge Religion roll, and have realized that, while many folk worship anthropomorphized deities with hearts for convenient stabbing, it's not like killing gods seems to do much good, given the number of Risen Saviours out there where the central point of their myths is that they die but then get better, so gacking them a second time would probably just lead to a religious revival. And then there are druids who worship everything from woodland sprites to the sun and the moon. Surely there are more productive things to do than hunting flower fairies or trying to put out the sun? Maybe just steal the power from them?