Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eprahs 12-15-07, 01:55 AM	I'm looking to boost my cleric with some combat abilities and adding some warlock abilities seems cool. Basically I only lose 2 levels of cleric progression, but I gain progression in warlock and cleric and the same time(even getting turn/rebuke undead progression). The question is, is this useful to the party healer? Do the 2 levels of cleric really hamper my healing prowess? Is a warlock even useful as a combatant? Do the armor penalties make up for the eldritch blast consistent damage? The party is really lacking in damage(we have a rogue, spellthief, bard, wizard, and a dwarven ranger) and I would like to help give this party some oomph. Would being straight cleric be better given the armor and what not? I just thought the PrC was cool, but I don't want to sacrifice my party because of a cool concept. So... thoughts, ideas, opinions? Thank you, ~eprahs
Jaxgaret 12-15-07, 02:30 AM	It is a very cool PrC, and there are ways to optimize around it. It's one of the few hybrid classes that can actually be almost competitive with going with straight single-caster levels. So if you have a straight Cleric that wasn't planning on going into Eldritch Disciple, you're probably better off just sticking to Cleric or Cleric PrCs. What kind of Cleric is your character, is it a melee Cleric, a heal/buffbot, or some other kind of Cleric that's not a blaster?
Eprahs 12-15-07, 02:52 AM	Well my cleric, right now, is an armored melee(sword & board) heal/buff-bot. I know I need to keep the healing prowess(our DM is brutal), but we just don't have the oomph to last through some of these encounters(especially since he throws waves and encounter chains at us). I just don't want to screw the party at higher levels(we're all level 3) because I decided to go for something different. I know the wizard and the spellthief will become much more powerful as they advance in levels(even the... bard), I just know our DM, and he doesn't let anyone get overpowered... perhaps useful at the most. I just want to do something to help when my melee is less usefull and when I'm not buff/healing. Thanks, ~eprahs
Pandapeep 12-15-07, 03:36 AM	You could try Ordained Champion if you want to go the melee combatant way.
Eprahs 12-15-07, 03:46 AM	You could try Ordained Champion if you want to go the melee combatant way. What book is that from? The name rings a few bells, I just can't place where from. Other than that, I'm really liking the idea that my cleric will get to be more fleshed out and personal. Everyone has played a healer/buffer, and I'm sure he will still be one, I just want my cleric to bring something different and special to the table, without losing the necessity of a full cleric in a party. Thanks, ~eprahs
Pandapeep 12-15-07, 04:12 AM	What book is that from? The name rings a few bells, I just can't place where from. Other than that, I'm really liking the idea that my cleric will get to be more fleshed out and personal. Everyone has played a healer/buffer, and I'm sure he will still be one, I just want my cleric to bring something different and special to the table, without losing the necessity of a full cleric in a party. Thanks, ~eprahs Complete Champion. The just of the class: You smite. Everyone. All the time.
The_Wyld 12-15-07, 04:25 AM	I'm actually playing an eldritch disciple atm in my campaign. I'm melee oriented, (Hideous Blow, cleave feat tree, and cleric buff spells) and it works pretty good for damage. And when it comes time to patch us up I just whip out a cure mod wand.
Eprahs 12-15-07, 04:38 AM	Complete Champion. The just of the class: You smite. Everyone. All the time. Though I don't like the idea of losing spontanious conversion to healing spells, the BAB and fact that I also only lose 2 levels of cleric spell casting progression isn't something to ignore. It kind of feels like converting my cleric into a Paladin though, even though the cleric is probably a better paladin than the friggin paladin. I still like the idea of the Eldritch Disciple though. I mean, a religious fanatic that uses the enimies powers against him is always a cool character concept with plenty of roleplaying options. The real question is, do 2 levels of cleric spell casting make a HUGE difference? Enough that a VERY tough campaign may suffer because of it? Also, is a ranged cleric less useful than a melee? BTW Eldritch Disciple can give his Eldritch blast a healing essence, so ranged healing. Thanks, ~eprahs
Eprahs 12-15-07, 04:43 AM	I'm actually playing an eldritch disciple atm in my campaign. I'm melee oriented, (Hideous Blow, cleave feat tree, and cleric buff spells) and it works pretty good for damage. And when it comes time to patch us up I just whip out a cure mod wand. The problem I have is that our game is pretty tough, healing wands will be sparse and, unless the bard focuses completely on heal/buffing, I HAVE to heal someone at least 3x per encounter. I was also thinking of going with Hideous blow, but the light armor and no shield makes me worried. Thanks, ~eprahs
The_Wyld 12-15-07, 06:22 AM	The problem I have is that our game is pretty tough, healing wands will be sparse and, unless the bard focuses completely on heal/buffing, I HAVE to heal someone at least 3x per encounter. I was also thinking of going with Hideous blow, but the light armor and no shield makes me worried. Thanks, ~eprahs Take the battle caster feat at lvl 6. And try to get mithral full plate asap. (and have it fortified, its in the last issue of dragon mag, adds a +1 nonmagical armour bonus) As for the no sheild, I've always used a 2 hander to max out damage so that never came up with me. :P And keep in mind, even if you can't procure wands easily (are you guys trapped in a 100 lvl dungeon or something?) even one fully charged wand can last for 1-2 good sized crawls. But if magic items are out of the question and you need to be the main healer, then stay cleric/cleric PrC's. if things are that tough you can't afford to lose the caster levels.
Eprahs 12-15-07, 06:51 AM	Actually taking battle caster is probably a great idea(duh :P ). The thing is, my character's holy symbol is his shield(didn't actually plan on doing eldritch until like 3 hours ago), so I kind of rely on it. As far as the two-handers, I'm all for the longswords... they appear more often, even in this campaign. As far as getting mithril or wands, the campaign is set in a frontier continent. There are few towns, and fewer magical items, making everything more expensive and traditional loot(gold, wands, etc.) much more rare. Eventually we'll get wands(or so I've been assured) but they will be less powerful than our spells(lvl8, we get cure moderate wounds wand). I know it would be better if I went strait cleric/cleric PrC, but I just want to know if it's REALLY going to kill us if I lose the two levels(totally forgot about battle caster, so my other problem is solved). I might also lose a few more levels and take Hellfire Warlock, just so I can do some serious damage, but that's around level 14 or so. But then again, when do clerics top out with healing? Do I need to go 17 levels of cleric so I can get all of the necessary healing spells(i.e. level 9 is pretty much needed for the party healer), or can I do with just level 6 healing spells and practiced spellcaster feat? Sorry if this seems kind of retarded, it would probably be easier if I went strait cleric, I would just like to add some serious firepower to the group as well. Yet, no one likes the guy who can do everything... hmm. Anyways, the question at hand is whether or not an Eldritch Disciple can still be a good healer? The rest, I guess, relies entirely on my playing style. Thanks, ~eprahs
Jaxgaret 12-15-07, 02:53 PM	I know it would be better if I went strait cleric/cleric PrC, but I just want to know if it's REALLY going to kill us if I lose the two levels(totally forgot about battle caster, so my other problem is solved). I might also lose a few more levels and take Hellfire Warlock, just so I can do some serious damage, but that's around level 14 or so. No, it's not going to kill your character, but becoming an Eldritch Disciple isn't going to help your offense enough to offset the casting/healing loss. You might even lose some offensive capability unless you go Hellfire Warlock, but that has issues of its own, and will greatly reduce your Cleric casting. Going ED is really good for giving your Cleric more versatility, not so much for offense. But then again, when do clerics top out with healing? Do I need to go 17 levels of cleric so I can get all of the necessary healing spells(i.e. level 9 is pretty much needed for the party healer), or can I do with just level 6 healing spells and practiced spellcaster feat? Level 6 spells are the minimum max spell level you would want as a Cleric, but the question is when are you going to be getting those 6th level spells? A straight Cleric gets them at 11th level; a Cleric/Warlock/ED/HellfireWarlock gets them way later, and in the interim you would really like to have had those 6th level spells. Sorry if this seems kind of retarded, it would probably be easier if I went strait cleric, I would just like to add some serious firepower to the group as well. Yet, no one likes the guy who can do everything... hmm. I don't think adding ED or even Hellfire Warlock is going to add enough firepower for the loss of Cleric casting. As you gain in levels, your Cleric will gain access to some powerful SoDs, SoSs, and other spells that are much better than anything the Warlock can bring to the table. Anyways, the question at hand is whether or not an Eldritch Disciple can still be a good healer? The rest, I guess, relies entirely on my playing style. Thanks, ~eprahs The ED can be a decent-to-good healer, yes, and if you want to try it as a flavorful choice, go right ahead. But I don't think it's really what you're looking for. I'll try and see if I can think of a better straight Cleric PrC for you to take.
Eprahs 12-16-07, 07:21 AM	No, it's not going to kill your character, but becoming an Eldritch Disciple isn't going to help your offense enough to offset the casting/healing loss. You might even lose some offensive capability unless you go Hellfire Warlock, but that has issues of its own, and will greatly reduce your Cleric casting. Going ED is really good for giving your Cleric more versatility, not so much for offense. Level 6 spells are the minimum max spell level you would want as a Cleric, but the question is when are you going to be getting those 6th level spells? A straight Cleric gets them at 11th level; a Cleric/Warlock/ED/HellfireWarlock gets them way later, and in the interim you would really like to have had those 6th level spells. I don't think adding ED or even Hellfire Warlock is going to add enough firepower for the loss of Cleric casting. As you gain in levels, your Cleric will gain access to some powerful SoDs, SoSs, and other spells that are much better than anything the Warlock can bring to the table. The ED can be a decent-to-good healer, yes, and if you want to try it as a flavorful choice, go right ahead. But I don't think it's really what you're looking for. I'll try and see if I can think of a better straight Cleric PrC for you to take. Thanks for your input, and I guess you're right. It's a cool concept, but it'll probably hamper my cleric pretty badly. The more I look at the class, the more fun it looks like it would be to play, yet... clerics get some decent firepower at higher levels. On the other hand, I'd be level 13 when I'd get my level 6 spells (if I went warlock at level 4 and ran the ED all the way through I'd be done at 14) so that's not too far off, and I'd still have enough levels left to take HW and something else. Hmm, and you said that a warlock really doesn't have much firepower? So... well that doesn't help the ED very much. If I do things the way I plan cleric3/warlock1/Eldritch Deciple10/Hellfire Warlock3/cleric3 I'd be casting level 8 cleric spells, turning undead as a level 16 cleric, my eldritch blast would be 6d6(12d6 if I use hellfire) and I'd have access to greater invocations... but before I get there I would be less useful. Hmm, lower levels are where me being the only healer(aside from the bard's 1 heal spell) are really important. I guess I could go with Hideous Blow and just use the warlock powers to up my melee... but then I lose access to heavy armor(if I take the battle caster feat, otherwise worse). IDK, I guess I REALLY want to see how this character would be from a strictly roleplaying standpoint, without sacrificing my team members in the process. Does anyone know of anything the warlocks have access to that would help buff my party members that a cleric doesn't have access to? Is there anything that a warlock does that's even better than a wizard or cleric, obviously the at-will stuff and no resources, but how useful is that?. I just want my cleric to be viable as a cleric, with all the warlock magic spamming goodness as icing on top. I just really really really don't want someone else in my party have to take levels in cleric or a cleric PrC to make up for me. Thanks all, ~eprahs
Jaxgaret 12-16-07, 05:33 PM	If you just want more melee power, you really can't go wrong with the Fist of Raziel. It's a Cleric PrC disguised as a Paladin PrC. It's in BoED. If you want to improve your healing capabilities via a PrC so you can concentrate your character on offensive firepower, the Radiant Servant of Pelor is the way to go. You even pick up MWP.
Eprahs 12-17-07, 08:15 AM	If you just want more melee power, you really can't go wrong with the Fist of Raziel. It's a Cleric PrC disguised as a Paladin PrC. It's in BoED. If you want to improve your healing capabilities via a PrC so you can concentrate your character on offensive firepower, the Radiant Servant of Pelor is the way to go. You even pick up MWP. The only problem I have with those PrCs is that I worship Corellon. Even the earlier mentioned Ordained Champion requires worship of Heronious or something. While the fluff most assuridly could be changed to fit my diety, I feel that it would be manipulating the game too much. I personally am a big fan of custom PrCs, but only if they make sense, and PrCs designed for a specific diety don't often mix will with others. Thank you for all of your opinions, they are most helpful and enlightening. The deciding factor is if Warlock powers are even worth taking on, and to anyone who has gone this rout(the_wyld :thumbsup: ), how has it fared verses a pure cleric/cleric PrC? Thanks again, ~eprahs
LSMFT 12-19-07, 02:28 PM	Though I don't like the idea of losing spontanious conversion to healing spells, Why would you lose this? It is a cleric ability? You're still a cleric? Anyway, there are two issues: healing and combat prowess. As far as healing goes, yes. You're going to lose two levels of casting. That's access to the highest-level healing spells and the number of them you can cast in a day. Will it cripple you? I don't think so. Healing blast will make up for some small part of that, and like you said, having it at range is nice. Remember: the healing you would do is based on the damage you could do, so things that boost your EB damage will boost your healing. Regarding melee combat: As far as damage, hell no. When it comes to damage output, this is not going to help. Your EB will be low for a long time, though it is at least reliable as a touch attack at range. With something like Hideous Blow, you're looking at a little more damage, but you are limited to a standard action to do it. And it could provoke an attack of opportunity in melee. But outside of damage itself, you can increase your offensive capability with a warlock. Invocations like See the Unseen and Devil's Sight can improve your ability to hit opponents, especially when the concealment comes for Darkness you created. Things like Walk Unseen give you the tactical and mechanical advantage of invisibility, and that will help out versus many opponents. You can also use many of your invocations to soften up your opponents so you can defeat them more easily. Like using Shatter at will to deprive them of weapons, armor, etc. before you move into melee. Finally, the Eldritch Theurge is a lot of fun. They have a cool flavor and abilities that just aren't available to a lot of other combos. I find warlock to be very fun, and adding cleric abilities to it makes then very potent at levels where many warlocks start to decline relative to other classes. Other advice if you go this way: Practiced Spellcaster for your cleric levels. You can qualify for Arcane Mastery as a warlock, but the benefits aren’t limited to your arcane casting/invoking. Your PrC abilities are powered by turn attempts, so Extra Turning is a good idea. My Eldritch Disciple just acquired a familiar with the feat, and I plan on using it to deliver touch-range healing/buffs in combat. I haven't done it yet, but it was useful with a bard I once played. So, I expect good things.
Jaxgaret 12-19-07, 07:46 PM	Why would you lose this? It is a cleric ability? You're still a cleric? Eprahs was referring to the Ordained Champion, which causes you to lose the ability to spontaneously convert spell slots into healing spells.
LSMFT 12-20-07, 09:40 AM	Oh, sorry. Wasn't aware of that.
Eprahs 12-20-07, 04:35 PM	Anyway, there are two issues: healing and combat prowess. As far as healing goes, yes. You're going to lose two levels of casting. That's access to the highest-level healing spells and the number of them you can cast in a day. Will it cripple you? I don't think so. Healing blast will make up for some small part of that, and like you said, having it at range is nice. Remember: the healing you would do is based on the damage you could do, so things that boost your EB damage will boost your healing. Regarding melee combat: As far as damage, hell no. When it comes to damage output, this is not going to help. Your EB will be low for a long time, though it is at least reliable as a touch attack at range. With something like Hideous Blow, you're looking at a little more damage, but you are limited to a standard action to do it. And it could provoke an attack of opportunity in melee. But outside of damage itself, you can increase your offensive capability with a warlock. Invocations like See the Unseen and Devil's Sight can improve your ability to hit opponents, especially when the concealment comes for Darkness you created. Things like Walk Unseen give you the tactical and mechanical advantage of invisibility, and that will help out versus many opponents. You can also use many of your invocations to soften up your opponents so you can defeat them more easily. Like using Shatter at will to deprive them of weapons, armor, etc. before you move into melee. Finally, the Eldritch Theurge is a lot of fun. They have a cool flavor and abilities that just aren't available to a lot of other combos. I find warlock to be very fun, and adding cleric abilities to it makes then very potent at levels where many warlocks start to decline relative to other classes. Other advice if you go this way: Practiced Spellcaster for your cleric levels. You can qualify for Arcane Mastery as a warlock, but the benefits aren’t limited to your arcane casting/invoking. Your PrC abilities are powered by turn attempts, so Extra Turning is a good idea. My Eldritch Disciple just acquired a familiar with the feat, and I plan on using it to deliver touch-range healing/buffs in combat. I haven't done it yet, but it was useful with a bard I once played. So, I expect good things. Thank you for the info, I really do appreciate it. I find it kind of ironic(though I don't know if that Canadian screwed up my understanding of the word or not) that my question was answered only hours after a TPK. Yeah... that sucked. So thanks guys for all of your input. When I do make another cleric, it will definitely be an Eldritch Deciple. There's always the bittersweet victory of finally deciding on a character concept, in the way that it's awesome you've made a decision at the same time sucky that you've essentially cut off all of your other options, and that's only been amplified with this turn of events. Yeah, the DM didn't realize that 2 Cocketrice were a little harder than the CR had implied(CR3). Anyways, you guys rock. ~eprahs
BotDX 12-21-07, 11:35 PM	I will just chime in with my experience with the Eldritch Disciple. Personally, I like it and I think it stays competitive with a straight cleric if you play your cleric as a melee combatant. Yes, some hold that even losing two spell levels will completely cripple you, but D&D isn't about eeking every bit of optimization out and the warlock abilities just add a layer of awesome. I would ignore offensive invocations and instead focus on things like fly, invisibility and voidsense. Also, look at that guide to Glaivelocks as Eldritch Disciples can really maximize the invocation and it makes a rather potent touch weapon.
Jaxgaret 12-22-07, 12:01 AM	Yes, some hold that even losing two spell levels will completely cripple you, but D&D isn't about eeking every bit of optimization out and the warlock abilities just add a layer of awesome. I would ignore offensive invocations and instead focus on things like fly, invisibility and voidsense. Note that this is pretty much exactly what I said. Going ED does not increase your offensive power and lessens your healing ability, but it does increase your versatility.