Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_wizard_Tim 05-30-07, 10:41 AM	I have looked at the Prc and it looks like fun... Just a few questions though, 1. Would/Should a changling qualify for this Prc? The Prc has a ractial qualifier of human or doppleganger... changling is both and niether. 2. What Items should a 5th lvl rogue 4th lvl Chameleon have? 3. Whats your take on this Prc?
CantripN 05-30-07, 10:49 AM	1 - Reread the adaptation part. Changelings are clearly stated as legal applicants. 2 - Anything you like. They can use anything. Especially with UMD. 3 - It's my favourite non-arcane caster PrC. Favorites: Ultimate Magus, Fochlucan Lyricist, Seeker of the Song, Chameleon, Frenzied Berserker, Master Specialist, Jade Phoenix Mage, Human Paragon, Witch Slayer, Loredelver.
Pantorts 05-31-07, 04:34 AM	The second level ability is pretty powerful. You get a bonus feat that you can change every day. That is pretty cool.
gotbrain 05-31-07, 08:49 AM	What book is this from?
Harliquinn 05-31-07, 08:51 AM	Races of Destiny.
gotbrain 05-31-07, 09:01 AM	Races of Destiny. Thank you. It seems this book has some good stuff in it. I might need to purchase it. Is this a rogue-ish PrC?
CantripN 05-31-07, 09:03 AM	Thank you. It seems this book has some good stuff in it. I might need to purchase it. Is this a rogue-ish PrC? Not really. Here it is: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1
gotbrain 05-31-07, 09:38 AM	Not really. Here it is: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1 Wow, very cool. Does it seem over powered? By level 10 you get +6 to two ability scores; I assume to allow you to cast the 6 lvl spells of the class you mimic if your ability score is low. This means that really you only need to have high CON and CHA stats initially. How would a party of 4 Chameleon PrC's do vs. a normal party I wonder. It does list a set of class skills but is this really necessary with the able learner feat? Also does taking the focus of a spell caster mitigate the need for UMD?
claypigeons 05-31-07, 12:39 PM	Also does taking the focus of a spell caster mitigate the need for UMD? No.
gotbrain 05-31-07, 12:54 PM	No. So if I take the arcane focus and have wizard spells on my class list i still have to use UMD to use a wand of "arcane spells"?
Nakat 05-31-07, 12:56 PM	I have a party of 4 Chameleons, a Fighter, and a Barbarian. They have an answer for every situation. It's been a blast, and they are all silly multiclassed before that just to have everything other people don't. It's been very tongue and cheek, but still, it's excellent.
claypigeons 05-31-07, 04:03 PM	So if I take the arcane focus and have wizard spells on my class list i still have to use UMD to use a wand of "arcane spells"? No. Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, Chameleons have EVERY arcane spell on their list. That is amazing... and the class is suddenly twice as good as I thought it was before... However, my "No" reply was going on the assumption that you would get spells that are not arcane. For those, you need UMD. Cure Light Wounds is basically a mainstay... Divine Power is nice. Also, UMD helps out on those that you don't take your focus in the Arcane.
gotbrain 05-31-07, 04:57 PM	No. Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, Chameleons have EVERY arcane spell on their list. That is amazing... and the class is suddenly twice as good as I thought it was before... However, my "No" reply was going on the assumption that you would get spells that are not arcane. For those, you need UMD. Cure Light Wounds is basically a mainstay... Divine Power is nice. Also, UMD helps out on those that you don't take your focus in the Arcane. Ok that's how I was interpreting it too. Thanks.
NoldorForce 05-31-07, 05:10 PM	No. Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, Chameleons have EVERY arcane spell on their list. That is amazing... and the class is suddenly twice as good as I thought it was before... However, my "No" reply was going on the assumption that you would get spells that are not arcane. For those, you need UMD. Cure Light Wounds is basically a mainstay... Divine Power is nice. Also, UMD helps out on those that you don't take your focus in the Arcane.Indeed, two of the strongest points of the PrC are the ability to cherry-pick spells from any list and the increased caster level (equal to double class level). Plus, despite the fact that there's a clause in the text preventing the use of its abilities to qualify for stuff, you can still bait-and-switch by qualifying with other stuff and then advancing Chameleon. Really, it's one of the most potent PrCs out there. In the past year, I've played five characters in various play-by-post games. Only one of them is/was not a chameleon.
aelryinth 05-31-07, 07:30 PM	Chameleons do NOT have a spell list. You must indeed use UMD to use ANY magical device. You can only 'emulate' arcane casting ability...you don't actually HAVE any. Your Chameleon spells can't even be transcribed as spells usable by other classes, because they aren't 'real' spells. It's right there in the class. You don't actually have any arcane or divine spell casting levels, and you don't have any spell lists. You have to get a spellbook to use ANY arcane or divine spell you want to take...so you can cherry pick, but you've got to find em and pay for them. So, you do need to keep UMD maxed out. Just because you can use Arcane spells at the moment doesn't mean you have a spell list. You're just pretending, after all. ===Aelryinth
gotbrain 05-31-07, 11:20 PM	Chameleons do NOT have a spell list. You must indeed use UMD to use ANY spellcaster magical device. You can only 'emulate' arcane casting ability...you don't actually HAVE any. Your Chameleon spells can't even be transcribed as spells usable by other classes, because they aren't 'real' spells. ..... I added the underlined word as an assumption. These lines seem misleading then: Arcane Focus: You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class... Divine Focus: You gain the ability to prepare and cast divine spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any divine spellcasting class... And if that's true there's no such things as 'chameleon spells'. He just uses a standard wizard spell book (probably stolen).
NoldorForce 05-31-07, 11:33 PM	Several PrCs use the same wording as the chameleon when determining what spells they get access to; would you then say that they had no actual spell lists? Nothing actually states that you do not have an actual spell list, or actual caster levels, or so forth. Indeed, the opposite is implied by the clause stating that most of the PrC's abilities can't be used for qualification. If the class had no actual spell list or spellcasting levels...then what would be the need to expressly attempt to ban their carry-over to other stuff? Additionally, WotC has in several Customer Service/Sage Advice/Ask Wizards/FAQ instances established that temporary abilities and bonuses can in fact be used to qualify for other things and otherwise work in the same manner as permanent stuff - so long as they are functional.
aelryinth 06-01-07, 04:54 PM	You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement. What you are trying to do is say "because I have Arcane Focus, I now have a spell list and can use UMD for any of those spells." This is the exact same thing as saying "I have an arcane spell list, and am taking a level of Mystic Theurge. I'll advance my Chameleon Arcane and Divine Spellcasting ability, and choose my spells for Theurge from any list." It doesn't work. If you allow the exception for UMD, you have to allow it for everything...and it specifically doesn't LET you allow it for everything. So, no, Chameleon does not have a spell list, does not have a spellcasting ability you can advance with another class. You don't have Arcane caster ability...you just 'seem' to. And because of that, you don't have 'spells on your spell list' to get around the UMD casting req. Really, guys, the Chameleon is plenty powerful enough without trying to find ways to crack it open. UMD is on the skill list for a reason, after all. ===Aelryinth
NoldorForce 06-02-07, 12:19 AM	What you are trying to do is say "because I have Arcane Focus, I now have a spell list and can use UMD for any of those spells.""Can use UMD"? Do you mean "qualify for spell-completion/-trigger stuff"? Why yes, you can. This is the exact same thing as saying "I have an arcane spell list, and am taking a level of Mystic Theurge. I'll advance my Chameleon Arcane and Divine Spellcasting ability, and choose my spells for Theurge from any list." As above there, you can't use most of the PrC's abilities to qualify for "a feat, prestige class, or other option". This refers to character and class options; the ability to use a magic item like another spellcaster is not such a thing.It doesn't work. If you allow the exception for UMD, you have to allow it for everything...and it specifically doesn't LET you allow it for everything.This is an inappropriate broadening of both my argument and of the PrC's initial prohibition. Which is that while the class doesn't let you use most of your class abilities for all outside stuff, it doesn't force you to use it with nothing either. You're really reading more out of that text than you should be. First off, qualifying for an ability and applying that ability to a character option are two different things. You can qualify for Incantatrix with wizard levels...and then advance your bardic spellcasting if you so desired. This is how many of the bait-and-switch things work; you qualify seperately, and then apply the effect to the chameleon's abilities. It matters nothing that such abilities can't be used to qualify for the option in the first place. It matters nothing that such abilities are temporary. All that matters is that you've qualified for the ability in some manner. And then you shunt the benefit at the chameleon class feature. Again, this prohibition on qualification is not even universal:You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.Bolding mine. The portion on the bonus feat is obvious. The other text implies that you can't use the other abilities to qualify for most options people care about; for instance, you can't use chameleon spellcasting to qualify for item creation feats. But being able to use a magic item that requires a certain spell list? That's not a character option. That's not a class option. That's no more an option than the ability to take a full round's worth of actions after having been raised from the dead, in the sense that the text speaks of.
koiulpoi 06-02-07, 12:46 AM	So, you're saying that this class always has every arcane and divine spell on his "spell list", despite not necessarily having the arcane or divine focus at that time? I would disagree, but if true, makes this class ridiculously powerful. I like it :D.
NoldorForce 06-02-07, 01:09 AM	So, you're saying that this class always has every arcane and divine spell on his "spell list", despite not necessarily having the arcane or divine focus at that time? I would disagree, but if true, makes this class ridiculously powerful. I like it :D.It has such spells on its spell list when taking the appropriate foci. Which isn't that powerful even with the ability to put anything on that list beyond the normal, explicit ability to actually cast said spells.
gotbrain 06-02-07, 09:55 AM	I read it the same way Nolder does. When you take a divine/arcane focus you get temporary spell casting and a tempory spell list (for only the currently selected focus). The UMD class feature is still important because you will still be carrying other non-focus selected items and/or items requiring a higher caster level than you can currently use. You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. To me the important word here is qualify; you dont have to qualify to use a wand, just have the spell on your spell list. It works the same for his ability boon feature. I can't use my improved INT/WIS score to quality for a feat but I can use to access higher level spells.