Post/Author/DateTime	Post
djbeatboy 05-28-07, 10:09 PM	I am wondering if there is a non evil Assassin PRC... ie... one that works for the clergy for instance....? For the purpose of this question please ignore the whole DnD "poison is evil" bit. Happy gaming. :D
Crimson_Concerto 05-28-07, 10:14 PM	It's amazing to me how many times people ask this question. I mean, really, what's the appeal of playing a good assassin? Just to be contrary or something? Anyways, the two most popular answers: A) The alignment and RP requirements on the PrC are stupid. Just ignore it. B) You can play an assassin without that PrC, and it can be good.
bobothechimp 05-28-07, 10:28 PM	Try the Avenger. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a
djbeatboy 05-28-07, 11:38 PM	It's amazing to me how many times people ask this question. I mean, really, what's the appeal of playing a good assassin? Just to be contrary or something? Anyways, the two most popular answers: A) The alignment and RP requirements on the PrC are stupid. Just ignore it. B) You can play an assassin without that PrC, and it can be good. I guess because there is no reason why the class "Assassin" needs to be evil only. You can't tell me that stryke force ops are in and of itself "evil". But thanx, I generally agree with the options you listed. Try the Avenger. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a Thanx I'll check it out now! :D
LightBane 05-29-07, 01:05 AM	Well, there's the Slayer of Domiel in the Book Of Exalted Deeds, assuming you have access to it. While you're there, might as well look up ravages and afflictions as well, with regards to the poison bit.
angelus_obscura 05-29-07, 03:09 AM	All of the following PrCs have the "death attack" feature as the Assassin. Black Flame Zealot (Complete Divine) - Any nongood. Gets poison use and 1/2 divine spellcasting progression. Make sure to read the adaptation entry. Cultist of the Shattered Peak (Lost Empires of Faerun) - Any alignment; only humans of Netherese descent. Anti-magic sentiment. Dark Hunter (Complete Warrior) - Any alignment. 5 levels, not that great. Monk of the Long Death (Players Guide to Faerun) - Any nongood; special ceremony of induction. This is a pretty good PrC for monk/rogues. Slayer of Domiel (BOED) - LG only. Death touch vs evil per day. Teflammar Shadowlord (Unapproachable East) - Any nongood; ability to shadowjump or dimension door. One of the best assassin-type PrCs IMO. That's all the non-evil assassin type PrCs that I know of personally. Hope it helps.
The_Shaman 05-29-07, 07:16 AM	You can't tell me that stryke force ops are in and of itself "evil". In and of itself, no. But imo they would be much closer to fighter-rogues or the like. However, most specialist assassins (as opposed to your rogue 20 that is very good in putting a dagger in someone's carotid artery) tend to end up on the evil side of the spectrum as D&D defines it. That doesn't mean they can't be sympathetic characters - I really liked the guy from "The Professional" - but they aren't exactly civil-minded. The thing is, to the best of my knowledge the DMG class comes from a specific archetype - iirc a particular Greyhawk guild. Which, imo, is the only thing that explains the spellcasting (that, and power considerations). Other PrCs with similar skill sets might use them for different purposes, but be careful - alignments, as defined by D&D, are not always convenient to follow as an adventurer. I would like to add to the above list: Justice of Weald and Woe (Champions of ruin): elf-affiliated (in fact, I'd say it should be elven only) avenger, specializing in bow and wielding some magic. Potential strong RP affiliations (elven supremacist organization). Strifeleader (Faiths and Pantheons): Specialty priest, good for (evil) cleric/rogues. Imaskari Vengeance Taker (Underdark): requires lvl 3 arcane spellcasting and lawful alignment: 1/2 arcane casting progression, some spell-likes for tracking people. Think a hybrid between bloodhound, assassin, and mage.
djbeatboy 05-29-07, 08:22 AM	Thanx for your efforts guys. Love your work :D
The_Shaman 05-29-07, 09:01 AM	NP, hope I could help. I generally take alignment a little more seriously, or at least I try to, but as far as the poison is concerned I find the evil restriction very weird. Considering that, for example, drow knockout poison is the D&D equivalent of a stun grenade, I fail to see what's so heart-wrenchingly sinister about it. Unless a poison is more painful than a gut wound, it makes little sense: it's dishonorable, sure, but honor and morality are not always the same thing.
heretic888 05-29-07, 11:02 AM	No one has mentioned the Bayushi Deceiver prestige class from Oriental Adventures yet. Its alignment is "any nonlawful" (so good is permissable) and it gains poison use at first level. Here is an excerpt from the class description: The Bayushi are charged with the dirtiest work in the empire. What matters is their willingness to do it, out of loyalty to clan and empire, despite any compunctions of honor they may cling to. It should be noted that in Oriental Adventures, "honor" is a very distinct mechanic from "alignment". An evil character could have a very high degree of honor with no difficulty whatsoever, while a good character could have no honor whatsoever. From the same book, there is also the Ninja Spy prestige class. Its alignment is "any nonchaotic, nongood", and like the Bayushi Deceiver, it also gains poison use at first level.
The_Shaman 05-29-07, 04:06 PM	TBH, I would prefer if safe use of poison would just be a feat. I don't know why an interested ranger should have to jump through hoops to learn how to use coat his arrows in spider venom.
Realms of Chaos 05-29-07, 05:28 PM	No. There are no non-evil "assassin" PRCs Why? The act of assassination is an evil act. There are nonevil necromancers, warlocks, slayers, grey guards, ninjas, spies, avengers, bounty hunters, inquisitors, and vigilantes, but not "assassins". Some people may ask, how can a necromancer be good and not an assassin? There is a simple reason for this. Necromancers, although usually associated with the evil act of reanimation, technically just deal with one school of magic in all of its forms, allowing room for neutral and even good necromancers. Assassins, on the other hand, by deffinition, sneak up behind someone and kill them..in cold blood. Not only are they dishonorable but they are basically selling the rights of others to live. For sake of argument, lets have a chat with the sacred assassin of Palor. Sacred Assassin: "And the great lord pelor did guide my hand, allowing me to submerge my blade in the juggular vein of my foe. And so he saw it fit for me to laugh as the red lifeblood flowed away, as all life does. Amen." Me: "And how did the church discover you?" Sacred Assassin: "Um... the high priest... saw me kill... a demon. That's right, a demon." Me: "And why did you kill it?" Sacred Assassin: "A potent combination of self-righteousness and boredom, really." Me: "So who does the church have you kill?" Sacred Assassin: "binders, heretics, fiends, political rivals..." Me: "Wait, what was that last one?" Sacred Assassin: "fiends." (succeeds on bluff check) Me: "So how do you do your job?" Sacred Assassin: "Well, I can't give away all of my secrets, but I could give you a short overview. First, I track down his associates, they are often not as well guarded..." Me: "and by associates you mean?" Sacred Assassin: "That could cover known accomplices, family members, neighbors, friends, etc. Anyways, I track them down, find out what they know about him to prepare myself, and then I kill them." Me: "Wait. You just admitted to killing random associates. They might be innocent." Sacred Assassin: "But they would warn the target if I didn't." Me: (scooting away from assassin) "I guess that's true. Go on." Sacred Assassin: "As I was saying, I then have to track the target at night, as my fisticuffs aren't up to snuff as you can see. I sneak up behind the target, coat my blade with venom, and then deliver the coup de graces" Me: "Coup de Graces?" Sacred Assassin: "Yes. I never deliver fewer than 5, just to make sure the body is dead. Don't worry, the poison paralyzes them so they don't feel their death, I think." Me: "Isn't that a bit excessive?" Sacred Assassin: "It needs to be excessive or else no one else would recognize it as my work and I wouldn't get paid. I'd gladly carve prayors into the flesh or fill their mouths with holy water but those markings are taken." Me: "you get paid?" Sacred Assassin: "Of course. I have an important role in the church of Palor and the tithes that hold over parish priests aren't enough for us." Me: "Oh. Wait a tic. What do you do with the information you gather?" Sacred Assassin: "Nothing, now that I think about it. If the target resists the venom and lives through the first assault, I just run and try again later." Me: "I'm sorry, but you don't sound good, or even neutral for that matter." Sacred Assassin: (Fumbling with vial beneath cloak) "Let me get you a drink." Me: (runs like hell, only to be killed by attack of opportunity). [/Rant] As we can see from above: Assassin= Evil (insert synonym for assassin here)= Go crazy with it.
heretic888 05-29-07, 06:27 PM	No. There are no non-evil "assassin" PRCs Why? The act of assassination is an evil act. And, yet, the abundance of prestige classes (about a dozen or so) mentioned on this thread alone completely contradict your declarative just-so statements. Most of them play the role of "assassins" in one form or another. To counter one of your assertions, the idea that killing someone in "cold blood" is most definitely always evil but killing that same person face-to-face is not is absurd. Murder doesn't become transformed into "good" just because you're upfront about it. As always, it is the context and motivation that determines alignment. Actions have no alignments in and of themselves.
angelus_obscura 05-29-07, 10:28 PM	I think someone just got pimp-slapped. Would you like some powder for your hand, heretic? :clap:
The_Shaman 05-30-07, 06:38 AM	I think you guys are both right, in a sense. RoC seems to be talking about assassins as the professional killers, and I do think that someone who makes their living killing people they don't know can hardly be good. Heretic is refering to people "playing the role" of assassins - which, to reduce it as much as possible, I understand as people using stealth and guile to kill an (unsuspecting, ideally) foe. While these would probably not be the most upstanding citizens, they need not kill for the sole purpose of money. So while they may assassinate someone, they would not be professional assassins.
Grave_Accomplice 05-30-07, 06:47 AM	Fantasy Flight Games has two. One is almost identical to the assassin in the DMG. Another operates without spells. The first requires that you be the follower of a lawful church. The second is an assassin working for 'king and country' or other similar fluff.
heretic888 05-30-07, 08:26 AM	I think you guys are both right, in a sense. RoC seems to be talking about assassins as the professional killers, and I do think that someone who makes their living killing people they don't know can hardly be good. Heretic is refering to people "playing the role" of assassins - which, to reduce it as much as possible, I understand as people using stealth and guile to kill an (unsuspecting, ideally) foe. While these would probably not be the most upstanding citizens, they need not kill for the sole purpose of money. So while they may assassinate someone, they would not be professional assassins. In either case, it is the moral context of said person's behavior --- his or her circumstances, intentions, motivations, goals, and decisions --- that determines the alignment of his or her actions. In the context of D&D, killing another sentient being for no other reason than pleasure and/or personal gain is Evil, whether you're stealthy or upfront about it. Likewise, simply choosing to dispatch your enemies using stealth and guile instead of gun-ho bravado doesn't make you any more Evil than a rogue who uses sneak attack or a ranger who uses ranged attacks to snipe his favored enemy. Methinks a lot of people are confusing Good with Lawful Stupid....
The_Shaman 05-30-07, 08:39 AM	"In the context of D&D, killing another sentient being for no other reason than pleasure and/or personal gain is Evil, whether you're stealthy or upfront about it. Likewise, simply choosing to dispatch your enemies using stealth and guile instead of gun-ho bravado doesn't make you any more Evil than a rogue who uses sneak attack or a ranger who uses ranged attacks to snipe his favored enemy." No doubt about that. However, one of the definitions of "profession" is the craft that gives your livelyhood, hence, if you are a professional something, you do it for money. You may like it or not, but money must be involved. Therefore, as per the PHB, a professional assassin will most likely be evil. Now, there are likely to be other factors involved, but whenever your main motivation for killing someone - whether it be by stealth, openly, or by praying to your deity to smite him/her with a disease, you are imo committing an evil act. The victim may be evil, good, chaotic, lawful etc, but imo your own motivation is the most relevant factor for your D&D alignment - or at least the more relevant factor in this case. A mercenary who has no problems with killing anyone for money will probably be an evil character either. Although, mind you, this can be somewhat relative depending on the prevalence of resurrection magic and the ideas of afterlife in the campaign.
Kimokeo 05-30-07, 08:57 AM	The question to me isn't so much of good assassins but why do you want the assassin class? Sneak attack every other level like a Rogue? Poison resistance? Death attack? The sneak attack is great. The poison resistance and the death attack are obtainable elsewhere. The death attack requires 3 rounds. I've played a very long time in D&D and it's rare to have 3 round for yourself. Poison? Trying to get it into the opponent and hoping for the save roll to fail? So what is it? Spells. Is it the spells you want? This is what makes the Assassin more powerful. Don't need UMD when the Assassin's list is used - the spells are great for a sneak. I wouldn't mind taking the Rogue, trade the trapfinding and stuff for spells and keep my sneak attack. That's saves time from going Arcane Trickster.
Realms of Chaos 05-30-07, 03:59 PM	Assassins, in their professions, kill whoever they are directed to by the highest bidder. Yes, there are good characters that are ordered to kill other people. Heck, there are probably good characters who try to keep it quiet. The thing is, these people are not "assassins" their classes use a variety of synonyms, but notice the lack of actual "assassins"!! There is no good "assassin" PrCs. There are, however, good "kill people for the greater good, regardless of the means needed" PrCs. That is all that I wanted to communicate.
djbeatboy 05-31-07, 12:03 AM	Assassins, in their professions, kill whoever they are directed to by the highest bidder. Yes, there are good characters that are ordered to kill other people. Heck, there are probably good characters who try to keep it quiet. The thing is, these people are not "assassins" their classes use a variety of synonyms, but notice the lack of actual "assassins"!! There is no good "assassin" PrCs. There are, however, good "kill people for the greater good, regardless of the means needed" PrCs. That is all that I wanted to communicate. OK.... Point 1 - Thanx to everyone for their comments and views. Point 2 - I was not trying to create an argument in this thread. Point 3 - Maybe I did not really express my idea to it's fullest extent and thus this has caused some confusion as to what I was looking for. Full Idea - I have a vision of a character that works for a church/state (unsure yet) that is use as like a "special forces" style unit. What do I mean by this?? Situation = Big bad evil guy is doing big bad ugly stuff to poor innocent people. Church/State (whichever he/she works for) needs to have this Big Bad Evil stopped but the normal "adventure sorts" have failed to succeed. Now they need to send someone that is going to succeed where the others fail, and the best chance of succees is if the Big Bad Evil does not see it coming. So the idea is not "Killer for Hire" or "Killer for Kicks" but the last resort to defeat the Big Bad Evil. Is that any better explained??? I see this character as probably being LN. So maybe Assassin was the wrong class "word" to choose, but it was the closest thing I could come up with at the time.... Thoughts??
The_Shaman 05-31-07, 05:00 AM	Hmm, in this case a wide range of ranger/rogue/monk PrCs might apply. The important part would be getting past any defenses the BBEG might have, not so much whether you want him gone from a stab in the jugular or twenty slashes across the entire body. The only thing that might matter is that you probably want him or her to stay dead... which spellcasting assassins, and the Black Flame Zealot in particular, are better suited to do. Still, unless they have resurrection mages, beheading or a similar disfigurement should suffice. Yes, it's a dirty trick, but if you can assassinate someone, you're already less than chivalrous to begin with. Sneak attack is important, not least because of what it can do for the Coup de Grace saves - or for a surprise round+full attack before the BBEG understands what's going on. A divine seeker (generic cult-affiliated roguish kind) killing someone in their sleep is as good as someone with a DC35 death attack. I think you can safely choose among the above options and anything else with a decent SA progression and/or special abilities, depending on what talents your character has, their background, and what enemy you want to kill (i.e. a SP cultist can be better against mages, while a Justice can be particularly effective if it's hard to get in for a stab). Death attack and poison use are added bonuses, but not necessary: if you manage to get 6+ sneak attacks with upwards of 6d6 SA damage on each, as well as additional damage from weapon enhancements etc, you have a good chance of killing someone outright. Did I mention that your target will not carry armor all the time? Although, to be perfectly honest, a straight rogue with enough brain in his head can handle the job well enough.
mdag 06-01-07, 10:04 PM	Okay, I'm a firm believer in if you want a PrC, make it out of base classes. An assassin couldn't be good, the name assassin is typically a bad one so a non-bad assassin is...ya, nothing. If i were to make an assassin out of the core classes, just take levels of rogue and levels of an arcane caster (sorcerer for me) and take plenty of illusion spells to coer up your jobs.
Psyber7 06-05-07, 02:39 PM	Sneak attack is important, not least because of what it can do for the Coup de Grace saves - or for a surprise round+full attack before the BBEG understands what's going on. The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs. No Full Attack is possible during a Surprise round. Following the Surprise Round, if your target is STILL flat-footed when you get to act, then you can get those massive numbers of Sneak Attacks in. Otherwise, I agree with your statements.
The_Shaman 06-05-07, 05:57 PM	The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs. No Full Attack is possible during a Surprise round. Following the Surprise Round, if your target is STILL flat-footed when you get to act, then you can get those massive numbers of Sneak Attacks in. Otherwise, I agree with your statements. Yes, I meant also your (probable) winning the initiative check later. If a rogue tries to do it, their high dexterity makes it quite likely that they will win.
Thorax2 06-05-07, 06:12 PM	Since I'm the DM in my campain, if you want to become an assassin, the alignment requirement isn't just any evil, if you are chaotic/neutral you can join, but the victim you kill must be a person 1 or more CR above you and they cannot be any evil. To take it a step further, reduce the death attack.