Is this class too powerful for a 13 - 15 and up level campaign [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is this class too powerful for a 13 - 15 and up level campaign [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nchantr
02-02-08, 12:13 AM The Small Weapon Specialist
Small Weapon Specialists' fighting style all rests on his speed, agility and ability to hit where it hurts. These guys are used to fighting other theives to get ahead.

Background: Small Weapon Specialist realize that strength is not the way to win. Accuracy and agility allow them to strike and defend like no one else.

Race: Any

Characteristics: Dexterity is the most important attribute for the Small Weapon Specialist. It adds to their defense, offense, as well as many of their skills.

Class Features
Hit Dice: d8

Skills per level: 4+int modifier

Alignment: Chaotic

Weapon Proficiencies: Any small weapon

Armor Proficiencies: Light Armor or medium armor with a max dex bonus of at least +4

Class Skills: Appraise(INT), Balance(DEX), Bluff(CHA), Diplomacy(CHA),Escape Artist(DEX), Jump(STR), Listen(WIS), Move Silently(DEX), Pick Pocket(DEX), Search(INT), Spot(WIS), Swim(STR), Tumble(DEX), Use Rope(DEX).

Table: Small weapon specialist

Level BAB FORT REF WILL SPECIAL
1 1 1 2 0 Twin small weaponmastery: Dexterous fighting
2 2 2 3 0 Street Wise Defense:
3 3 2 3 1 Bonus Feat
4 4 3 4 2 2d6 accurate strike
5 5/1 4 5 2 Small Focus:
6 6/2 4 6 3 Bonus Feat
7 7/3 5 6 3 Insightful strike:
8 8/4 5 7 4 4d6 accurate strike
9 9/5/1 6 7 4 Bonus Feat
10 10/6/2 6 8 5 Improved Strike:

Twin Small weapon Mastery:
No penalties for using two small weapons.
Dexterous Fighting: instead of STR modifier, add 1.5 DEX modifier (rounded down) to damage and to hit.
Upgraded Sneak Attack: as sneak attack but overcomes uncanny dodge NOTE: if Small weapon specialist has any other class that grants sneak attack like abilities those d6 are still negated by uncanny dodge

Insightful strike: At every odd level any small weapon used gains +1 to the critical threat range to a max of +5 @9th

Improved Strike: damage for weapon is increased by one die category. They just know how to strike a little better with a small weapon

Small Focus: +1 to attack with small weapons Stacks with Weapon Focus

Street Wise Defense: Add +1 to AC every even level this is an deflection bonus (+5 max)+1 @ 2nd level,+2 @4th
Jaxgaret
02-02-08, 01:33 AM Here, I fixed the stat block for you, just quote, copy and paste:

Level BAB FORT REF WILL SPECIAL
1 1 1 2 0 Twin small weaponmastery: Dexterous fighting
2 2 2 3 0 Street Wise Defense:
3 3 2 3 1 Bonus Feat
4 4 3 4 2 2d6 accurate strike
5 5/1 4 5 2 Small Focus:
6 6/2 4 6 3 Bonus Feat
7 7/3 5 6 3 Insightful strike:
8 8/4 5 7 4 4d6 accurate strike
9 9/5/1 6 7 4 Bonus Feat
10 10/6/2 6 8 5 Improved Strike:

What's up with the nonstandard saves and BAB progression?
Nchantr
02-03-08, 03:21 AM Thank you for that.

The BAB was just an oversite on my part should have been as fighter.

As you can probably tell I'm kinda new to the whole creating PrC'S.

I've been told the increase in threat along with the wpn damage increase is too over powering. Also the defense bonus is said to be unbalanced. Though looking at other PrC's and BC's I don't feel I'm too far off. Just need some tweeking.

However, I could be wrong!

Thanks again for any and all constructive critisim.
M-bark
02-03-08, 07:41 AM Well, the saves you're using are quite nonstandard. Standard-wise, you have good and bad saves. Good ones up with one every 2 levels, bad ones with one every 3 levels.
Axiomatic_vampire
02-03-08, 10:12 AM Couple things. First, I don't see the entry requirements. What's it take to get into this PrC?

Second, some of the abilities seem a bit strong. For example, the dextrous fighting. 1.5x dexterity modifier to both attack rolls and damage. I'm assuming you mean for that to apply to both daggers. It's way too strong. An interesting and possibly balanced replacement would be to simply up the off-hand damage from .5 to 1, and not include the bonus to attack rolls.

Bonus feats. Either an extremely limited and below average pool of feats to select from, or get rid of this altogether. As is, your PrC gives rogues more hit points, much higher attack, much higher damage, free AC bonus, and it doesn't look like they're giving up much. The feats probably have to go.

Insightful Strike. Daggers start as 19-20 threat range weapons. Keen makes them 17-20. Your insightful strike eventually turns them into 12-20 weapons. This is beyond anything in D&D. 12-20 crit range weapons do not, and should not exist. Perhaps you could change insightful strike into a 10th level ability that increases the threat range of light weapons by one. That's it.

Accurate Strike. Is that the upgraded sneak attack? Seems like it, just making sure.

Now the class has a D8 for hit dice, 4+int skills/level, base attack as a fighter, skills as a rogue, eliminates two weapon fighting penalties, increases off-hand damage, grants a deflection bonus to AC, increases sneak attack as a rogue (but allows some of the damage to overcome uncanny dodge), and gets an extra +1 to attack rolls.

Still seems kinda strong, as it just doesn't give much up. What exactly it loses depends a lot on the entry requirements. Assuming a rogue, I'm assuming that it's going to lose is some trap sense and some rogue special abilities (improved evasion and so forth). Still seems pretty strong. Might have to eliminate that deflection bonus as well to level things out.
Nchantr
02-04-08, 10:13 PM [QUOTE=Nchantr;14987532]The Small Weapon Specialist
Small Weapon Specialists' fighting style all rests on his speed, agility and ability to hit where it hurts. These guys are used to fighting other theives to get ahead.

Thank you for the input. That was the specific critisim I needed. Thank you. Now lets see how I did with the revision.

Background: Small Weapon Specialist realize that strength is not the way to win. Accuracy and agility allow them to strike and defend like no one else.

Race: Any

Characteristics: Dexterity is the most important attribute for the Small Weapon Specialist. It adds to their defense, offense, as well as many of their skills.

Class Features
Hit Dice: d8

Requirements: Two Wpn Fighting, Improved Evasion, 2d6 Sneak
attack,+6 BAB
Alignment: Non Lawfull

Skills per level: 4+int modifier
Weapon Proficiencies: Any small weapon

Armor Proficiencies: Light Armor
Class Skills: Appraise(INT), Balance(DEX), Bluff(CHA), Diplomacy(CHA),Escape Artist(DEX), Jump(STR), Listen(WIS), Move Silently(DEX), Pick Pocket(DEX), Search(INT), Spot(WIS), Swim(STR), Tumble(DEX), Use Rope(DEX).

Table: Small weapon specialist

Level BAB FORT REF WILL SPECIAL
1 0 2 0 0 Twin small weaponmastery, Elegant Strike
2 1 3 0 0 Street Wise Defense:
3 2 3 1 1 Bonus Feat
4 3 4 1 1 2d6 upgraded sneak attack
5 3 4 1 1 Small Focus:
6 4 5 2 2 Bonus Feat
7 5 5 2 2 Insightful strike:
8 6/1 6 2 2 4d6 upgraded sneak attack
9 6/1 6 3 3 Bonus Feat
10 7/2 7 3 3 Improved Strike:

Twin Small weapon Mastery:
No penalties for using two small weapons.
Elegant Strike: Add Dex bonus to Strength for damage calculation (From Champion of Corellon Larthian {with the change of small weapons instead of the list given}) RotW p113
Upgraded Sneak Attack: as sneak attack but overcomes uncanny dodge NOTE: if Small weapon specialist has any other class that grants sneak attack like abilities those d6 are still negated by uncanny dodge

Improved Strike: damage for weapon is increased by one die category. They just practice how to strike a little better with a small weapon

Small Focus: +1 to attack with small weapons Stacks with Weapon Focus

Bonus Feat selection: weapon focus (small wpns only), Dodge, improved initiative,Weapon Finesse, Ambidexterity,cleave, mobility, Alertness, Spring attack

Street Wise Defense: Gain the effect of Shield of Faith spell with caster level equal to charter level
war_thog
02-04-08, 10:42 PM Upgraded SA = bad idea.
Instead let their levels stack with roge to determine if you can bypass uncanny dodge. Perhaps give a small bonus to determine this.
Rogues can do it anyway if theyre good enough.
This guy at lvl 10 shouldnt be sneaking a lvl 42 barbarian.

Wait you put improved evasion in the Reqs??

Wtf??
You want this to be only lvl 10+ monks and rogues?
Cut that down to evasion.

Also spread out the sneak damage. +2d6 in one go is too much.

Improved strike is illogical.
All fighting classes practice how to hit better.
Thats what BaB does. A dagger shouldnt be dealing the damage of a short sword.
Sneak attack covers hitting where it hurts. Not logic behind upping the weapon dmg die.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nchantr 02-02-08, 12:13 AM	The Small Weapon Specialist Small Weapon Specialists' fighting style all rests on his speed, agility and ability to hit where it hurts. These guys are used to fighting other theives to get ahead. Background: Small Weapon Specialist realize that strength is not the way to win. Accuracy and agility allow them to strike and defend like no one else. Race: Any Characteristics: Dexterity is the most important attribute for the Small Weapon Specialist. It adds to their defense, offense, as well as many of their skills. Class Features Hit Dice: d8 Skills per level: 4+int modifier Alignment: Chaotic Weapon Proficiencies: Any small weapon Armor Proficiencies: Light Armor or medium armor with a max dex bonus of at least +4 Class Skills: Appraise(INT), Balance(DEX), Bluff(CHA), Diplomacy(CHA),Escape Artist(DEX), Jump(STR), Listen(WIS), Move Silently(DEX), Pick Pocket(DEX), Search(INT), Spot(WIS), Swim(STR), Tumble(DEX), Use Rope(DEX). Table: Small weapon specialist Level BAB FORT REF WILL SPECIAL 1 1 1 2 0 Twin small weaponmastery: Dexterous fighting 2 2 2 3 0 Street Wise Defense: 3 3 2 3 1 Bonus Feat 4 4 3 4 2 2d6 accurate strike 5 5/1 4 5 2 Small Focus: 6 6/2 4 6 3 Bonus Feat 7 7/3 5 6 3 Insightful strike: 8 8/4 5 7 4 4d6 accurate strike 9 9/5/1 6 7 4 Bonus Feat 10 10/6/2 6 8 5 Improved Strike: Twin Small weapon Mastery: No penalties for using two small weapons. Dexterous Fighting: instead of STR modifier, add 1.5 DEX modifier (rounded down) to damage and to hit. Upgraded Sneak Attack: as sneak attack but overcomes uncanny dodge NOTE: if Small weapon specialist has any other class that grants sneak attack like abilities those d6 are still negated by uncanny dodge Insightful strike: At every odd level any small weapon used gains +1 to the critical threat range to a max of +5 @9th Improved Strike: damage for weapon is increased by one die category. They just know how to strike a little better with a small weapon Small Focus: +1 to attack with small weapons Stacks with Weapon Focus Street Wise Defense: Add +1 to AC every even level this is an deflection bonus (+5 max)+1 @ 2nd level,+2 @4th
Jaxgaret 02-02-08, 01:33 AM	Here, I fixed the stat block for you, just quote, copy and paste: Level BAB FORT REF WILL SPECIAL 1 1 1 2 0 Twin small weaponmastery: Dexterous fighting 2 2 2 3 0 Street Wise Defense: 3 3 2 3 1 Bonus Feat 4 4 3 4 2 2d6 accurate strike 5 5/1 4 5 2 Small Focus: 6 6/2 4 6 3 Bonus Feat 7 7/3 5 6 3 Insightful strike: 8 8/4 5 7 4 4d6 accurate strike 9 9/5/1 6 7 4 Bonus Feat 10 10/6/2 6 8 5 Improved Strike: What's up with the nonstandard saves and BAB progression?
Nchantr 02-03-08, 03:21 AM	Thank you for that. The BAB was just an oversite on my part should have been as fighter. As you can probably tell I'm kinda new to the whole creating PrC'S. I've been told the increase in threat along with the wpn damage increase is too over powering. Also the defense bonus is said to be unbalanced. Though looking at other PrC's and BC's I don't feel I'm too far off. Just need some tweeking. However, I could be wrong! Thanks again for any and all constructive critisim.
M-bark 02-03-08, 07:41 AM	Well, the saves you're using are quite nonstandard. Standard-wise, you have good and bad saves. Good ones up with one every 2 levels, bad ones with one every 3 levels.
Axiomatic_vampire 02-03-08, 10:12 AM	Couple things. First, I don't see the entry requirements. What's it take to get into this PrC? Second, some of the abilities seem a bit strong. For example, the dextrous fighting. 1.5x dexterity modifier to both attack rolls and damage. I'm assuming you mean for that to apply to both daggers. It's way too strong. An interesting and possibly balanced replacement would be to simply up the off-hand damage from .5 to 1, and not include the bonus to attack rolls. Bonus feats. Either an extremely limited and below average pool of feats to select from, or get rid of this altogether. As is, your PrC gives rogues more hit points, much higher attack, much higher damage, free AC bonus, and it doesn't look like they're giving up much. The feats probably have to go. Insightful Strike. Daggers start as 19-20 threat range weapons. Keen makes them 17-20. Your insightful strike eventually turns them into 12-20 weapons. This is beyond anything in D&D. 12-20 crit range weapons do not, and should not exist. Perhaps you could change insightful strike into a 10th level ability that increases the threat range of light weapons by one. That's it. Accurate Strike. Is that the upgraded sneak attack? Seems like it, just making sure. Now the class has a D8 for hit dice, 4+int skills/level, base attack as a fighter, skills as a rogue, eliminates two weapon fighting penalties, increases off-hand damage, grants a deflection bonus to AC, increases sneak attack as a rogue (but allows some of the damage to overcome uncanny dodge), and gets an extra +1 to attack rolls. Still seems kinda strong, as it just doesn't give much up. What exactly it loses depends a lot on the entry requirements. Assuming a rogue, I'm assuming that it's going to lose is some trap sense and some rogue special abilities (improved evasion and so forth). Still seems pretty strong. Might have to eliminate that deflection bonus as well to level things out.
Nchantr 02-04-08, 10:13 PM	[QUOTE=Nchantr;14987532]The Small Weapon Specialist Small Weapon Specialists' fighting style all rests on his speed, agility and ability to hit where it hurts. These guys are used to fighting other theives to get ahead. Thank you for the input. That was the specific critisim I needed. Thank you. Now lets see how I did with the revision. Background: Small Weapon Specialist realize that strength is not the way to win. Accuracy and agility allow them to strike and defend like no one else. Race: Any Characteristics: Dexterity is the most important attribute for the Small Weapon Specialist. It adds to their defense, offense, as well as many of their skills. Class Features Hit Dice: d8 Requirements: Two Wpn Fighting, Improved Evasion, 2d6 Sneak attack,+6 BAB Alignment: Non Lawfull Skills per level: 4+int modifier Weapon Proficiencies: Any small weapon Armor Proficiencies: Light Armor Class Skills: Appraise(INT), Balance(DEX), Bluff(CHA), Diplomacy(CHA),Escape Artist(DEX), Jump(STR), Listen(WIS), Move Silently(DEX), Pick Pocket(DEX), Search(INT), Spot(WIS), Swim(STR), Tumble(DEX), Use Rope(DEX). Table: Small weapon specialist Level BAB FORT REF WILL SPECIAL 1 0 2 0 0 Twin small weaponmastery, Elegant Strike 2 1 3 0 0 Street Wise Defense: 3 2 3 1 1 Bonus Feat 4 3 4 1 1 2d6 upgraded sneak attack 5 3 4 1 1 Small Focus: 6 4 5 2 2 Bonus Feat 7 5 5 2 2 Insightful strike: 8 6/1 6 2 2 4d6 upgraded sneak attack 9 6/1 6 3 3 Bonus Feat 10 7/2 7 3 3 Improved Strike: Twin Small weapon Mastery: No penalties for using two small weapons. Elegant Strike: Add Dex bonus to Strength for damage calculation (From Champion of Corellon Larthian {with the change of small weapons instead of the list given}) RotW p113 Upgraded Sneak Attack: as sneak attack but overcomes uncanny dodge NOTE: if Small weapon specialist has any other class that grants sneak attack like abilities those d6 are still negated by uncanny dodge Improved Strike: damage for weapon is increased by one die category. They just practice how to strike a little better with a small weapon Small Focus: +1 to attack with small weapons Stacks with Weapon Focus Bonus Feat selection: weapon focus (small wpns only), Dodge, improved initiative,Weapon Finesse, Ambidexterity,cleave, mobility, Alertness, Spring attack Street Wise Defense: Gain the effect of Shield of Faith spell with caster level equal to charter level
war_thog 02-04-08, 10:42 PM	Upgraded SA = bad idea. Instead let their levels stack with roge to determine if you can bypass uncanny dodge. Perhaps give a small bonus to determine this. Rogues can do it anyway if theyre good enough. This guy at lvl 10 shouldnt be sneaking a lvl 42 barbarian. Wait you put improved evasion in the Reqs?? Wtf?? You want this to be only lvl 10+ monks and rogues? Cut that down to evasion. Also spread out the sneak damage. +2d6 in one go is too much. Improved strike is illogical. All fighting classes practice how to hit better. Thats what BaB does. A dagger shouldnt be dealing the damage of a short sword. Sneak attack covers hitting where it hurts. Not logic behind upping the weapon dmg die.