Kensai and Ancestral Relic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Kensai and Ancestral Relic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Earthcrosser599
03-14-08, 12:32 AM The FAQ says that you can combine the Kensai's Signature Weapon class feature with the Ancestral Relic feat, as long as you obey the restrictions on both.

Is there any practical way of doing so?

One of my players wants to make an extreme weapon master-type character and had asked about combining the two previously mentioned abilities, but I didn't know what to tell him.

His character is 11th level but he only has three levels of Kensai. The maximum value of a Kensai's Signature Weapon at that level is +3, which is monetarily the equivalent of 18,000 gp, and it says that he can't make his weapon any stronger than that, while his Ancestral Relic maximum value at that level is 33,000 gp, which is enough for a +4 equivalent weapon, and it doesn't look like he can take even that because of the cap imposed by the Signature Weapon feature.

Neither of us understand how to make those two work together. If he'd taken the full six levels of Kensai that he could have his Signature Weapon would have an effective enhancement bonus of +6, but the Ancestral Relic value would still have to be at approximately +4, which would imply that the other +2 is simply lost or cannot be used. Even if they were both the equivalent +4, would one even be contributing to the weapon?
luedre
03-14-08, 01:00 AM Ancestral Relic can be used on armor too, makes some armour quite nifty in fact.
Lotus Crane
03-14-08, 01:02 AM By combining the two features, RAW, you don't end up with a more powerful weapon - in fact, due to juggling their uneven advancement, of which you're restricted to the lower value, you almost always have a weaker weapon than if you focused on just one ability. However, you do have one that's potentially easier to upgrade. A Kensai upgrades his signature weapon by sacrificing XP; an Ancestral Relic is upgraded by sacrificing treasure. So for example, you could sacrifice 2,000 gp worth of treasure to change your weapon from masterwork to +1, and then sacrifice 120 XP (the difference between 160 and 40) to upgrade it from +1 to +2.

Of course, this isn't a terribly exciting way of doing things. As DM, you could always allow your PC to use the higher value from the two tables, instead of the lower, while still being able to choose each time whether to use XP or gp to upgrade his weapon. Heck, if you want to be super-nice, and you're not overly concerned about game balance (or that game is already unbalanced because the spellcasters are outshining the Kensai anyway), you could rule that the signature weapon and Ancestral Relic upgrades are tracked separately, and don't count towards each other's values for determining the total worth of the weapon. So for example, the PC could end up with the equivalent of a +20 weapon (+5 enhancement, with +15 worth of properties), but instead of costing some combination of 800,000-8,000,000 gp + 16,000-160,000 XP (depending on whether or not you're applying epic rules), it would only cost 200,000 gp + 4,000 XP.
Earthcrosser599
03-14-08, 01:45 AM Ancestral Relic can be used on armor too, makes some armour quite nifty in fact.

I didn't even consider that. Thanks for the heads up!

You too, Lotus Crane. It looked that way to me as well, in regards to having to use the weaker of the two weapons, but the FAQ said they could work together so I was thinking that I had overlooked something.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Earthcrosser599 03-14-08, 12:32 AM	The FAQ says that you can combine the Kensai's Signature Weapon class feature with the Ancestral Relic feat, as long as you obey the restrictions on both. Is there any practical way of doing so? One of my players wants to make an extreme weapon master-type character and had asked about combining the two previously mentioned abilities, but I didn't know what to tell him. His character is 11th level but he only has three levels of Kensai. The maximum value of a Kensai's Signature Weapon at that level is +3, which is monetarily the equivalent of 18,000 gp, and it says that he can't make his weapon any stronger than that, while his Ancestral Relic maximum value at that level is 33,000 gp, which is enough for a +4 equivalent weapon, and it doesn't look like he can take even that because of the cap imposed by the Signature Weapon feature. Neither of us understand how to make those two work together. If he'd taken the full six levels of Kensai that he could have his Signature Weapon would have an effective enhancement bonus of +6, but the Ancestral Relic value would still have to be at approximately +4, which would imply that the other +2 is simply lost or cannot be used. Even if they were both the equivalent +4, would one even be contributing to the weapon?
luedre 03-14-08, 01:00 AM	Ancestral Relic can be used on armor too, makes some armour quite nifty in fact.
Lotus Crane 03-14-08, 01:02 AM	By combining the two features, RAW, you don't end up with a more powerful weapon - in fact, due to juggling their uneven advancement, of which you're restricted to the lower value, you almost always have a weaker weapon than if you focused on just one ability. However, you do have one that's potentially easier to upgrade. A Kensai upgrades his signature weapon by sacrificing XP; an Ancestral Relic is upgraded by sacrificing treasure. So for example, you could sacrifice 2,000 gp worth of treasure to change your weapon from masterwork to +1, and then sacrifice 120 XP (the difference between 160 and 40) to upgrade it from +1 to +2. Of course, this isn't a terribly exciting way of doing things. As DM, you could always allow your PC to use the higher value from the two tables, instead of the lower, while still being able to choose each time whether to use XP or gp to upgrade his weapon. Heck, if you want to be super-nice, and you're not overly concerned about game balance (or that game is already unbalanced because the spellcasters are outshining the Kensai anyway), you could rule that the signature weapon and Ancestral Relic upgrades are tracked separately, and don't count towards each other's values for determining the total worth of the weapon. So for example, the PC could end up with the equivalent of a +20 weapon (+5 enhancement, with +15 worth of properties), but instead of costing some combination of 800,000-8,000,000 gp + 16,000-160,000 XP (depending on whether or not you're applying epic rules), it would only cost 200,000 gp + 4,000 XP.
Earthcrosser599 03-14-08, 01:45 AM	Ancestral Relic can be used on armor too, makes some armour quite nifty in fact. I didn't even consider that. Thanks for the heads up! You too, Lotus Crane. It looked that way to me as well, in regards to having to use the weaker of the two weapons, but the FAQ said they could work together so I was thinking that I had overlooked something.