Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Warlawk 05-23-07, 03:45 AM	Just looking over the signature weapon rules for Kensai and it seemed a little bit ambiguous. If the signature weapon is already magic, can the kensai further enchant it starting at level 1, or does he have to be of great enough level to meet the total requirement? IE A Kensai has a +2 longsword, he wants to make it keen. If he is level 2, he is limited to +2 enhancement. The longsword already has +2 enhancement. Can he add two enhancement levels IN ADDITION to what the weapon already has? Or is he limited to a total of +2 enhancement. Another way to ask might be to ask if the weapon's innate enhancement levels count against the kensai chart, or can he stack his own on top of them? I do understand the reduced XP cost for stacking onto an existing magic weapon... I just don't know how high a low level kensai can take this. If he has only a few kensai levels, and an extremely powerful magic weapon as his signature weapon this will let him tailor his enhancements on top of it? Seems like it could be pretty powerful for just a couple levels in the class. If anyone has any official resource links that might clear this up I would be most appreciative.
Garonak 05-23-07, 04:19 AM	I don't think there's any official ruling on this. I would probaly say that the enchantments doesn't stack. But that's just my opinion.
Draculator 05-23-07, 07:09 AM	Greetings, I have always understood it the way that you do not differentiate where the previous enhancement of the sig weapon originates from (found in a dungeon, Kensai XP, paid an arcane spellcaster, bought in a magic shop, crafted by the party caster, ...). Thus, I feel one should have to wait till one has attained enough Kensai levels and then just pay the difference in XP as described in the PrC entry. It seems to be the most logical and coherent approach to me. -Drac
goawayugh 05-23-07, 11:29 AM	It's not that ambiguous. **The XP cost presented here assumes that the weapon being imbued does not already have an enhancement bonus. If it does, the cost to imbue it with additional power is reduced. For instance, if a kensai has a +1 longsword and wants to imbue it with the power to be a +3 longsword, he may do so by paying the difference in XP cost between creating a +1 weapon and a +3 weapon. You can never have "seperate" abilities on a weapon, meaning that you can't pay for a +1 weapon and then for a keen weapon and say "well, since it was already magical, I only have to pay for the +1 keen". All enhancements are cumulitive and get increasingly more expensive (whether it is gp or XP you are paying). If you have a +2 weapon and you are a lv 2 kensai...sucks for you, you can't imbue it any more.
Rhyvurg 05-23-07, 01:49 PM	Acually, in the example given in the CW book below the chart the kensai uses to determine the XP cost of imbueing a weapon, it states that all he must do is pay the difference between the existing emhancement and how high the kensai wants to take it.
Keenath 05-23-07, 02:01 PM	Right, but you're still limited to the class's allowed maximum. If you're a 2nd level Kensai and you find a +2 longsword, there's nothing you can do with it until you level up. Once you do level up, you can pay the standard amount of XP to imbue an upgrade of +2 to +3 . The class ability determines the maximum bonus equivalent of the weapon, not how many more you can "imbue" into it.
El_Machinae 05-23-07, 02:04 PM	I disagree with Rhyvurg. There's a reason why there's a paragraph describing how to determine the XP costs, because it's more complicated than the chart allows. The imbuing of a weapon is determined by the Kensai's level. A level 2 Kensai can only put in 2 points of bonus (total). However, the paragraph explains that you can put additional bonuses into a magical weapon: it will just cost more XP to put bonuses into a weapon that's already enchanted. That said, the more GP you've put into enchanting a weapon before you apply your Kensai ability, the less benefit you'll get from the last few levels. You still cannot make the weapon more than +5 or greater than 10 total "plusses" worth of bonuses edit to add: the chart talks of "minimum XP cost", meaning that there's a way to add to the XP cost (if the weapon is already enchanted, the XP cost will be more). As well, in the first paragraph on pg. 51, it talks that imbuing a weapon is possible even if the weapon is already magical.
teshen 05-23-07, 03:28 PM	You can never have "seperate" abilities on a weapon, meaning that you can't pay for a +1 weapon and then for a keen weapon and say "well, since it was already magical, I only have to pay for the +1 keen". All enhancements are cumulitive and get increasingly more expensive (whether it is gp or XP you are paying). If you have a +2 weapon and you are a lv 2 kensai...sucks for you, you can't imbue it any more. That's the gist of it. You can only 'enchant' your signature weapon yourself up to the limit on the chart for the kensai's signature weapon. If the bonus is higher than that you're stuck that way until you earn a high enough level. As a side note... under the Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values Table Weapon bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp so... Normal Weapon Creation | Signature Weapon Creation | Weapon +1 2,000 GP 80 XP | 40 XP Weapon +2 8,000 GP 320 XP | 160 XP Weapon +3 18,000 GP 720 XP | 360 XP Weapon +4 32,000 GP 1280 XP | 640 XP Weapon +5 50,000 GP 2000 XP | 1000 XP Weapon +6 72,000 GP 2880 XP | 1440 XP Weapon +7 98,000 GP 3920 XP | 1960 XP Weapon +8 128,000 GP 5120 XP | 2560 XP Weapon +9 162,000 GP 6480 XP | 3240 XP Weapon +10 200,000 GP 8000 XP | 4000 XP No gold cost and half the experience cost... The Kensai signature weapon is rediculously cheap...
I_Poke_The_Darkness 05-28-07, 03:03 AM	I do not think that you are right. If the signature weapon does not stack with magic there is no point to this class besides saving a few gold. If all of you are right then this is the worst prestige class ever. If you went into this as soon as you could, at level 6, you would have at least a +2 weapon. By the time you got to 8th level and could make a +3 weapon you will have upgraded your weapon. if you where still stuck with a +2 weapon, what the bloody heck is wrong with your DM? Going into 8th level a fighter should have way better then a +2 weapon. Think about it, what level would you have to be for this to be worth anything? A 10th level fighter that has a +5 sword is not over powered and is easy to have by then, only 50,000 GP to buy one. So by this logic, you would not be able to use the main class feature until around 12th or 13th level, and then it is only good for 2 or 3 levels maybe 4 or 5 if your DM is holding out on you. Also you are giving up huge numbers of feats or other powers to get this and in the end it is crap because what 19th or 20th level fighter does not have a +10 weapon? I can see why people would say that it does not stack because who does not want a +20 weapon? And as far as making magic weapons without using a caster, DMG 2 page 231, bonded magic items. Because all we can do is guess at its meaning, what needs to happen is WotC address this.
kalstrand 05-28-07, 02:04 PM	I havn't looked the Kensai over but even if it doesn't stack it leaves you 200,000 gp, which is rearly 1/4 total wealth, to spend on other gear at level 20 that the Fighter has to spend on his weapon.
I_Poke_The_Darkness 05-28-07, 05:42 PM	This would be a good class if there was little to no magic items, but I don't think that many people on the boards play that way because it is harder to brake. The only way that someone would play this is to be cool. Another way of doing this class would be to use the "Psychic weapon master" http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d
goawayugh 05-29-07, 10:13 AM	I do not think that you are right. If the signature weapon does not stack with magic there is no point to this class besides saving a few gold. If all of you are right then this is the worst prestige class ever. If you went into this as soon as you could, at level 6, you would have at least a +2 weapon. By the time you got to 8th level and could make a +3 weapon you will have upgraded your weapon. if you where still stuck with a +2 weapon, what the bloody heck is wrong with your DM? Going into 8th level a fighter should have way better then a +2 weapon. Think about it, what level would you have to be for this to be worth anything? A 10th level fighter that has a +5 sword is not over powered and is easy to have by then, only 50,000 GP to buy one. So by this logic, you would not be able to use the main class feature until around 12th or 13th level, and then it is only good for 2 or 3 levels maybe 4 or 5 if your DM is holding out on you. Also you are giving up huge numbers of feats or other powers to get this and in the end it is crap because what 19th or 20th level fighter does not have a +10 weapon? I can see why people would say that it does not stack because who does not want a +20 weapon? And as far as making magic weapons without using a caster, DMG 2 page 231, bonded magic items. Because all we can do is guess at its meaning, what needs to happen is WotC address this. If they did stack, this would be the MOST POWERFUL PrC ever! It costs you no gold, and only half the xp than normal to enhance you weapon! Letting it stack breaks all the non-epic weapon enhancement rules (+10 efective at most).
teshen 05-29-07, 02:40 PM	I do not think that you are right. If the signature weapon does not stack with magic there is no point to this class besides saving a few gold. . . I don't know... could it be the +8 to strength (+4 to hit and damage) you can get for multiple rounds at the cost of a concentration check at level 2 of Kensai? :rolleyes: It's better than a barbarian's Greater rage and earnable earlier. The drawback is a shorter duration... which you can get around somewhat by spending some of the money you saved on a weapon and sink it into a concentration enhancing item.
I_Poke_The_Darkness 05-29-07, 07:52 PM	Your right, it will not stack. I think it might be good if you where a monk or using nat weapons. Otherwise its just a bad class. Sorry for the rant,
ninjasuperspy 06-01-07, 05:02 PM	See, I thought the Kensai signature weapon was cheap too, then I really thought about it. I would almost rather have a Legacy Weapon, if you overlook the contradictory bonuses (it always bothered me that the +5 longsword hit you with a -3 attack roll penalty). The big drawback is that Kensai costs you 10 character levels to get your +10 sword (or fists or whatever). For something that just does straight damage (something that will rarely come up in higher level games), I'd much rather spend money than half of my CLs.
pippin_nl 06-02-07, 05:52 PM	This class is an excellent NPC class: compared to a standard NPC fighter: (Fighter 10) Init +6; AC 24 (touch 11, flat-footed 23); hp 79; Speed 30 ft; Attack: +1 longbow +11/+11/+6 ranged (1d8+6/20x3); +1 bastard sword +15/+10 melee (1d10+6/17); SV Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +4; Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. Crucial Skills: Jump +3, Listen +9, Spot +9. Other Skills: Climb -4, Swim -12. Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Improved Critical (Bastard Sword), Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword). Equipment: +2 full plate, +1 heavy steel shield, +1 bastard sword, +1 composite longbow and 5500 gold (Fighter 5 / Kensai 5) Init +6; AC 24 (touch 11, flat-footed 23); hp 79; Speed 30 ft; Attack: masterwork longbow +10/+5 ranged (1d8+4/20x3); +4 keen bastard sword +16/+11 melee (1d10+9/17); SV Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +6; Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. Crucial Skills: Concentration +12, Diplomacy +14 and Ride +12 Other Skills: Bluff +1, Gather Information +1, Intimidate +1, Jump +2. Feats: Combat Expertise, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword). Equipment: +2 full plate, +1 heavy steel shield, +4 keen bastard sword, +1 composite longbow and 7200 gold Special: power surge DC 15 as a move action to gain +8 strength for 2 rounds and take concentration checks instead of reflex saves versus area effects that cause damage And there is not as much loot:)
crizhII 06-12-07, 01:29 PM	Your right, it will not stack. I think it might be good if you where a monk or using nat weapons. Otherwise its just a bad class. Sorry for the rant, I disagree. A Kensai can replace Ref saves with Concentration checks. Combined with Monk and perhaps Exemplar it becomes possible to consistantly make Ref saves with DC's well into the 40's. I have a player in my game at the minute who is playing a Soulknife/Kensai. I thought he was crazy but a Mindblade Signature Weapon has a lovely synergy.
starfire311 06-12-07, 02:29 PM	Kensai is a good class it does some nice things, In games were DMs actually stick to wealth by level guidelines... which is everygame I have ever played in then this is a solid class... not too powerful not weak. at 10th level you can have a +5 weapon A +5 weapon is worth 50,000gp... 10th level characters should only have 49,000gp. This class basically obliterates the wealth by level guidelines... My biggest problem with the class is the medium BAB, it should be High BAB See, I thought the Kensai signature weapon was cheap too, then I really thought about it. I would almost rather have a Legacy Weapon, if you overlook the contradictory bonuses (it always bothered me that the +5 longsword hit you with a -3 attack roll penalty). The big drawback is that Kensai costs you 10 character levels to get your +10 sword (or fists or whatever). For something that just does straight damage (something that will rarely come up in higher level games), I'd much rather spend money than half of my CLs. this is a rediculous statement... ofcourse a legacy weapon would be ebtter if you removed all the drawbacks... those drawbacks are there for a balancing factor.
El_Machinae 06-13-07, 10:46 AM	I used to mind the mid-BAB, but have learned that it's not really all the bad. The massive boost in skill-point bonuses, a second 'good' save (in certain cases, see below), and the sword really do balance it out. You might be using Cleric to get in, too, and so then you're working with Divine Power anyway if it's really important. I disagree. A Kensai can replace Ref saves with Concentration checks. Combined with Monk and perhaps Exemplar it becomes possible to consistantly make Ref saves with DC's well into the 40's. It's crazy-useful in Epic, because your concentration check scales much better at that level.
CaoSlayer 06-13-07, 10:54 AM	If my memory dont fails me, the prc is also good using double weapons being able to enchant both ends.
starfire311 06-13-07, 11:48 AM	If my memory dont fails me, the prc is also good using double weapons being able to enchant both ends. wow, good point have a +5/+5 double weapon at 10th level is huge, that is 100k weapon when you should only have 49k.
Sunic_Flames 06-13-07, 11:57 AM	On a somewhat related note... It says Signature Weapon. Which barring some rule 0 type editing means singular, aka doesn't benefit TWFers as much. So as a randomish question would you consider 2 weapons always used in pairs and each paid the cost individually as a 'Signature Weapon' for this purpose? Basically only difference is having two at once, still have to pay for each.
El_Machinae 06-13-07, 12:47 PM	No, I wouldn't allow paired weapons, though I can see why people want it. You'd think that with the Samurai class in the same book, paired weapons should be an option. The Kensai text is notably absent of paired weapons: in addition, paired weapons have much more diversity than a double weapon (which IS allowed) and thus would make the 100,000 GP value at ECL 10 much, much too powerful.
CaoSlayer 06-13-07, 12:52 PM	A double weapon is a single weapon, period. Of course this just make the class more efective, but I think is balanced just because also is special with monk and natural weapons, besides is a 3/4 bab class and is somehow pointless to do more damage if you have a harder time to hit.
Sunic_Flames 06-13-07, 01:07 PM	No, I wouldn't allow paired weapons, though I can see why people want it. You'd think that with the Samurai class in the same book, paired weapons should be an option. The Kensai text is notably absent of paired weapons: in addition, paired weapons have much more diversity than a double weapon (which IS allowed) and thus would make the 100,000 GP value at ECL 10 much, much too powerful. You're looking at it purely in terms of listed values. Not all GP values are created equal. Compare for example the 1,175 gp +1 studded leather to the 1,100 gp non magical mithril chain shirt. The mithril chain shirt is inherently better, slightly cheaper, can be further boosted at lower cost... it is superior in every way. Now ask yourself, are 2 one handed weapons better than a single two handed weapon? If you're familar with the mechanics of the game you already know the answer to this. If not, ask if TWF is better than THF, see what answers you get. Also, seeing as Kensai is one of those if you are a Monk, Paladin, or Samurai you may freely multiclass between those classes and this one type classes it'd make even more sense because as you stated, Samurais use paired weapons. Point being, it's not any more powerful, it just opens up a different option so a not so stellar fighting style has a bit of an alternate path. And since the items are just MW or whatever enchantments they previously possessed in the hands of anyone else, value as far as selling goes is meaningless. And it's one of those break your CoC and most of your class features turn off classes, except unlike the Paladin it is actually effective enough to justify the restrictions. So any mechanical advantage that has not yet been sufficently addressed can be replied to by simply stating this fact.
teshen 06-13-07, 06:22 PM	You're looking at it purely in terms of listed values. Not all GP values are created equal. . . . . . Kensai is one of those if you are a Monk, Paladin, or Samurai you may freely multiclass between those classes and this one type classes it'd make even more sense because as you stated, Samurais use paired weapons. Point being, it's not any more powerful, it just opens up a different option so a not so stellar fighting style has a bit of an alternate path. And since the items are just MW or whatever enchantments they previously possessed in the hands of anyone else, value as far as selling goes is meaningless. . . Thri-Kreen monk/kensai. Ki strike for unarmed and the six signature weapon +10 claws for the natural attack routine follow-up... plus a bite. Kensai allows natural weapons at a 10% increase per weapon... so six claws would be 150% the normal kensai cost... 6000 xp I think instead of the 200,000 GP and 8000 XP times six. If your DM allows level adjustment buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)it seems like all kinds of broken awesome.
El_Machinae 06-14-07, 07:14 AM	Now ask yourself, are 2 one handed weapons better than a single two handed weapon? If you're familar with the mechanics of the game you already know the answer to this. If not, ask if TWF is better than THF, see what answers you get. I know what you're saying, but I'm not really debating TWF vs. THF: A Kensai with a Dwarven Urgosh can do either and enchant both sides. However, having two signature weapons is more useful than having a single double-weapon: it's much easier to get a diversity of damage types, you can sword-n-board with either of them, depending on the situation, etc. Thematically, I can fully understand wanting to have a pair of signature weapons (like with the Samurai example, which pretty well screams for it). Mechanically, it might be a bit too powerful. The Kensai is already pretty stacked.
Sunic_Flames 06-15-07, 08:31 AM	Thri-Kreen monk/kensai. Ki strike for unarmed and the six signature weapon +10 claws for the natural attack routine follow-up... plus a bite. Kensai allows natural weapons at a 10% increase per weapon... so six claws would be 150% the normal kensai cost... 6000 xp I think instead of the 200,000 GP and 8000 XP times six. If your DM allows level adjustment buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)it seems like all kinds of broken awesome. 160% actually, not that it makes much of a difference. And not discussing natural weapons, it's already been established those can be used in multiples already, or rather it's not up for debate. As for the paired weapon thing, I thought that was sufficently addressed by adding the clause they have to both be used together. So while you could in theory get 2 or more damage types this way (which could be done with one weapon if done right), swording and boarding with either of them wouldn't work out, neither would "The Weapon Golf Bag'. Also, animated shields FTW.
El_Machinae 06-15-07, 08:37 AM	Crumb, I didn't notice the "always used together" clause. I think that would be quite fair as long as the clause was maintained. You're mechanically worse off than having a double-weapon, though you might have saved yourself a feat.
teshen 06-15-07, 10:42 AM	160% actually, not that it makes much of a difference. And not discussing natural weapons, it's already been established those can be used in multiples already, or rather it's not up for debate. . . Well then, that's what I get for posting away from my books... which is usually. :D As for the paired weapon thing, I thought that was sufficently addressed by adding the clause they have to both be used together. So while you could in theory get 2 or more damage types this way (which could be done with one weapon if done right), swording and boarding with either of them wouldn't work out, neither would "The Weapon Golf Bag'. Also, animated shields FTW. It'd be cheezy as all get out, but think about a few of the double weapons that are something with a chain and something on the end of that chain... Just add a chain to the pommels of a longsword/shortsword combo or whatever... and say it's... swordchuks. One side does 1d8, 19/x2 and the other does 1d6, 19/x2. Ok... so that's a bit stupid. But it's been done before.