Let's get some mid-term balance on Frank and K's stuff [Archive] - Wizards Community

Let's get some mid-term balance on Frank and K's stuff [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Prak, the Mad
04-10-07, 04:00 PM ok, I'm fairly sure I can't be the only person who's noticed that with what's out so far, things are not balanced, which makes games difficult while we're waiting for K and Frank to get more stuff to us. We need skill and magic feats, we need class balance, and we just need some other various things so we can run games while we wait for more Tome goodness.

so, I propose we all think up some stuff to tide us over and allow proper games, and possibly help the guys with ideas.

who's in?
sigma999
04-10-07, 10:45 PM OK Mr. Mad ... I have one that's been brewing in my mind for a few days now. This is my favorite topic, btw, someone just asking me to go hog wild on creativity!

My beef for this post:
The [Reserve] feats and [Heritage] feats.

Reserve feats...
- at first it was a good idea. Glad Monte thought of it but sadly some lesser WOTC designer makes it reality. Snooze ya lose, Monte. -_-
- it needs work! MAJOR work. I just saw today some people here running around claiming that "Storm Bolt" essentially makes a lesser Lightning Bolt with NO SAVE. I believe that is a typo and will be errata'd soon, but mehhh w/e.
- the lack of diversity stunned me. it's nothing like Elemental Substitution... more like Weapon Focus. you mean to tell me, o mighty Complete Mage, that I can not have a [Acid] version of Fiery Burst? Just make it Elemental Burst and depending on the highest level type of w/e element you have availible to cast, that's what you can use? No, that's too powerful, right?.. Wrong. It's so simple to make Reserve feats with more options but it simply wasn't done that way, and options were limited... for flavor.
- not enough Reserve feats. I noticed 2 [Water] and 2 [Air], and yet only 1 of [Fire] and [Lightning] each!?!? YAAARRRR Don't force me to use "Elemental Spellcasting" from Planar Handbook just to get +1 SCL on a single element for my Fire specialist, and without any other bonus!!! Sure it STACKS and all but since the Reserve feats are so much better why does something like Elemental Spellcasting have to suck so much.

My fix: make Reserve feats work within limited spell types yet with diverse uses. The Necromancy touch one could be something that allows you to use a minor (Level 1-2) spell once a round, even as a Swift action maybe (if you took the feat twice?) The elemental ones are so easy to make better, simply make the element match whichever spell is availible at the player's choice. The Illusion disguise feat needs to last longer.. hell, all the self-buffs need to last longer, but I'll get to that later. I could keep going but I hope you get the idea.
That feat from 3.0 (or was it archmage ability?) that changes a spell into an SLA... the requirement of "the spell's level -8" was too high and I doubt any L17+ mage would exchange a slot to cast Magic Missile, unalterable by any metamagic feats, for a single slot of their best spell, even if it were "at will"...But it was a start, and possibly what inspired the Reserve feats.
However, we need more. We need a simpler, less costly method of turning spells into at-will abilities now that the Warlock and it's wacky "I can do it whenever I want" powers made a debut.
I don't quite know what to say could be better with Reserve feats, but it simply wasn't enough with what we have now. I am a little disappointed but still point and laugh at the rules lawyers that headwagged and psssshaw'd at anything in 3.0 or earlier that remotely looked like "at will spellcasting", yet those same old-school-gamers hungrily jump at the chance to abuse Warlock, Reserve feats, and Psionicist now that they are here and not just house rules. OK.. I admit, the fence-sitting turncoat bigot attitude makes me pssed but I still laugh, I try.

Heritage feats....
- OK what went on here between [Heritage] and the [Abyssal-Heritor] and [Devil-Born]??? What is this.. everyone for themself? Nothing is compatible these days.. we have "invocation" levels and "maneuver" levels and non of it stacks, as if Arcane/Divine/Psionic weren't enough to worry about! Same with these bloodline feats... they don't stack well enough, or go far enough, to be worth anything later in levels.
- Heritage feats need to be even more exponential in power, like Frank and K did with the feat reworks. I'm talkin about when you get a Heritage feat to give you spells, you get SPELLLLSSSS out the wazoo. Like DOMAIN amount of spells, straight to your spell list, and if you don't have one, YOU DO NOW!
- Why did the designers stop with the advancement? There's not many Heritage for body parts, and the ones that do don't progress farther than "you have vestigial gliding wings" and "you have 2 tentacles".
.... So? Where's the rest? When do I get to grow horns and a huge tail n sht and my beh*lder (non-open source, ya know) eyes starting popping out of my skull?!? I refuse to take a prestige class for all that due to the extra crap that comes with them, I just want to alter the fundamentals of my race!
- Tome of Fiends is a start.. the demonic classes to replace the mistake that was monster hit die was a good idea but we need more.

My proposal: bloodline feats. and every race has the basic one for their own race. An elf one, a dwarf one, an orc one, a goblinoid one (with advancements for goblin subraces) and yes a human one (to give... a bonus feat? <_<) which will begin paths into pseudo-paragon feat chains without the crappy parasitic twin hit die attached. Some monster ones might be , [devil], [angel] and so on.
Combining races will be as simple as slapping certain chain-beginning feats on and totalling bonuses, no templates required.

Effects that work on specific races will check for which bloodlines notified in [ ]are present, and either benefit or break the character as result. Racial Enemy and Bane are examples, and items that work for race-specific (which we could have a lot more of, mind you).
For bloodline feats that affect age, use the more desirable out of all of them when multiple bloodlines are added, like for a half-elf...
(Note: Racial bonuses of most kind will mostly stack with themselves, unless special cases mentioned, and if official rules say otherwise.. well.. then that needs to change cuz it's plain stupid)

Also, when a feat has something like [human] next to you must be at least partly human to acquire it.

[b]Humanblood
Prereq: INT 3+, stuff (maybe)
Benefit: You are a humanoid [human]. You gain a bonus feat and +1 Competence bonus to 4 skills of your choice.
Special: If you are a beginning character your start age is X+YdZ, middle age is blah blah and venerable is yackyack. You die of old age at mehmehmeh.

[b]Human Diversity
Prereq: human
Benefit: Your INT counts as 2 points higher for determining skill points. This gain is retroactive.

[b]Elfblood
Prereq: INT 3+, stuff
Benefit: You are a humanoid [elf]. You gain a +2 Racial bonus to Spot and Listen. You gain the feats Low Light Vision (maybe) and Sleep Resistant.
Special: If you are a beginning character your start age is retarded slow elf kid aging X+YdZ, middle age is a too high blah blah and venerable is the incredible elf yackyack. You die of old age at .. well.. never.

[b]Elfin Curiosity
Prereq: elf
Benefit: Gain Detect Secret Doors (Ex) and +2 Racial bonus to Search.

[b]Sleep Resistant [Bloodline, Elf]
Prereq: dunno... don't want to just put "elf"
Benefit: You need half as much sleep as default to become rested and gain +4 Racial bonus to resist [Sleep] effects (which would be applied also to spells that affect dreams, which are [i]legion...). You must at least refrain from spellcasting for 8 hours to regain spells and this is yet another flaw in D&D because races that do not sleep should not be required to FAKE DOING IT! How about "regain spells by the hour, each and any hour spent not spellcasting", OK? Yeah! Great!
Cumulative: Maybe be taken 2 additional times.
The second time halves sleep time required again and adds another +4 Racial bonus against [Sleep]
The third time makes the character immune to [Sleep] in any form (like a Warforged)
Note that not every world has 24 hour rotation cycles... take that into account... and note that I made the feat to WORK ON MANY WORLDS! woooo

Low Light Vision
Prereq: ?, maybe "+2 Racial bonus to Spot or more"? don't want to be restrictive from the beginning doing something stupid like "elf only!"
Benefit: You can see twice as far as default in partial light conditions (or whatever the text is for this weird crap)

[b]Increased Longevity
Prereq: no farkin clue, maybe spellcaster of some kind?
Benefit: Double each age category for your race. You are now sterile (so powergamers don't pass on this trait to others).

[b]Immortality
Prereq: uhhhh.. Increased Longevity?
Benefit: You have no maximum Venerable age. However you are still aged so penalties from each age category remain. Who will be paying for your MediCare, you old fart? Your 65 years of Income Taxes have all been spent on missiles and oil by the current president! Buahahaaaa you should have wished for eternal youth! Oh, wait... noo what is this next feat!?!

[b]Eternal Youth
Prereq: hell yeah! oh, and Increased Longevity!
Benefit: Better to burn out than fade away! You don't gain age penalties of any kind and physically remain in the Young Adult age category until death.
You still age and die of old age. Doh!

[b]Prakblood [Bloodline]
Prereq: WOTC forum member
Benefit: You are satanist and proud of it. Hell, why not? Better than being Baptist, eh? Too bad Sig is a Celtic pagan/Hindu/Buddhist/Catholic, you'd have something in common! :rolleyes: You gain Initiative +2 and Patience for New Frank And K Material -2. You may Flame a poster within 5 feet 1/day as a Spell-Like Ability.

OK I'm done now, until tomorrow maybe..

Oh, and this last bit isn't a reaction to anything but I'll be introducing my Domesticated, Mongrel, and Inbred templates as well as "niche " templates for races sometime soon for the lot of you to ignore and/or insult or use in your games as you see fit.
They work by modifying the properties of any and all races within the character applied for better and for worse, so you can have your Inbred Soldier Orc with STR+12 but barely smarter than a reptile (or w/e the result was last week when I added it all up!) and your cute and cuddly but dumb-as-dirt Domesticated Flop-Earred Elf for general companionship or abuse (and eventual consumption? yeesh.).
Another objective was for more diversity within basic D&D races without increasing LA, and I hope I accomplished it. The presentation will be nicer than my previous (read: failed) threads.
I got to thinkin that maybe the fantasy races of D&D could use a realistic application of genetics, maybe a little selective breeding in specific settings like war-breed for monstrous cultures or a dramatically domesticated type for vast powerful high-magic cities.

The inspiration for breeds was something like this (and this is not the source but simply a sample article on the subject): link (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VRT-4FF20DD-P&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F08%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=139aabb18e9d2da08c2c7d15be92ac6c)
Prak, the Mad
04-11-07, 03:18 AM looks good.. I do like my ability to flame posters w/i 5' once a day... just need to use it more, I suppose... :)
Prak, the Mad
04-18-07, 01:34 PM bump
katarl
04-19-07, 09:57 AM You consider Frank and Ks work balanced? I'v always felt (at least Ks) work a bit biased and not very useful for normal games.

Sigmas work looks good, if a little... incomplete... and strange. I think the feats you describe deserve their own subcategory, call it, genetic? orientation? the last one maybe mentally ill? If it were me, i'd make them traits or something other than feats, but its not me at all.
NobodyRemembersThis
04-19-07, 11:52 AM I think a bloodline should give only a skill bonus initiallyor a minor ability (0th level spell 1/day, low light vision, Stability [dwarf], et al). So something like:

Human: Base (no change)
Dwarf: gain dwarven Stability
Elf: Immunity to Sleep spells and effects
Gnome: Speak with Animals (burrowing creatures only) 1/day
Halfling: +1 to all saves
Orc: Scent
Celestial:Lightning or Acid Resistance 5
Fiendish: Fire or Cold resistance 5
Ilithid: Daze 1/day
Earth: Sonic Resistance 5
Fire: Fire resistance 5
Water: Acid Resistane 5 (Cold Resistance 5)
Air: Lightning Resistance 5
Dragon: +1 Natural Armor
Changeling: Change Self 1/day

....These are just examples. Better abilities would need to be selectable as additional feats after these initial feats.
DarkRhystar
04-19-07, 01:49 PM I think a bloodline should give only a skill bonus initiallyor a minor ability (0th level spell 1/day, low light vision, Stability [dwarf], et al).

Which is why they will suck.

Seriously, you get 7 feats. Why would you spend an entire feat on a pathetic minor ability?
Prak, the Mad
04-19-07, 01:57 PM You consider Frank and Ks work balanced? I'v always felt (at least Ks) work a bit biased and not very useful for normal games.

Sigmas work looks good, if a little... incomplete... and strange. I think the feats you describe deserve their own subcategory, call it, genetic? orientation? the last one maybe mentally ill? If it were me, i'd make them traits or something other than feats, but its not me at all.

well, I think it's alot better than the current double standard of caster vrs. martialist...
NobodyRemembersThis
04-19-07, 02:15 PM If ye look at the list, they are better than the skill feats and quite a few other base line feats - I ended up retooling them. Feats should be balanced against feats appearing in the CORE, not the splatbooks.
Tsuul
04-19-07, 03:34 PM Who broke this thread? Sigma999???

possible fix:
change the url at the bottom of your first post to Hide the address.
HIDDEN (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VRT-4FF20DD-P&_user=10&_coverDate=02/08/2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=139aabb18e9d2da08c2c7d15be92ac6c)
Prak, the Mad
04-19-07, 04:43 PM If ye look at the list, they are better than the skill feats and quite a few other base line feats - I ended up retooling them. Feats should be balanced against feats appearing in the CORE, not the splatbooks.

umm... you don't know what I'm referring to... do you? I'm looking at books written by a couple of players, not Tome of Magic and Tome of Battle...
Kresalak
04-20-07, 01:30 PM You consider Frank and Ks work balanced? I'v always felt (at least Ks) work a bit biased and not very useful for normal games.

Frank and K wrote the Tome series together, so it's all both of theirs.
NobodyRemembersThis
04-21-07, 10:57 AM umm... you don't know what I'm referring to... do you? I'm looking at books written by a couple of players, not Tome of Magic and Tome of Battle...It's still a splatbook - not a WotC splatbook, but a splatbook nonetheless. And if it is the same Frank that got banned from these forums back before 3.5 came out, Then it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. His idea of balance is more rules savy but no less broken than Monty Haul...er, I mean Monty Cooke.
Prak, the Mad
04-23-07, 10:27 AM what, you think there isn't a serious balance problem between casters and martials? There is! A full caster can drop pebbles of concentrated damage, while even a multi-classed martial is sitting there basically being a second shield for the casters... and when it gets into savy multi-classing for casters, they can cast as a character 3 times their actual level!
sigma999
04-27-07, 07:43 PM Sigmas work looks good, if a little... incomplete... and strange. I think the feats you describe deserve their own subcategory, call it, genetic? orientation? the last one maybe mentally ill? If it were me, i'd make them traits or something other than feats, but its not me at all.

Awww thanks :3 ... "strange"...
Yeah I have more on DOC on my PC, more later, I'll link to it here. Sorry I can't respond to all yall right now, no time left T_T
sigma999
05-01-07, 07:51 PM Which is why they will suck.

Seriously, you get 7 feats. Why would you spend an entire feat on a pathetic minor ability?

One thing different that maybe I forgot to mention: with the Bloodline feats, it was intended to replace the whole character race.
Abstractly, the race is a pool of unspent feat slots. Say, example, 5? I haven't determined what the average would be yet, I'm still making observations.
Point-wise, elf and dwarf always get more; this will drop if all basic LA+0 races are equal, without any drawbacks.
"Defects" from the UA book might be used to grant 1-2 more Bloodline feats.

The player or NPC then selects the feats from specific trees and this determines
the race of an individual, allowing much more mongrelization and diversity than "half-elf" or "half-orc". Expect some optimization by players, but I intend on putting the less powerful Bloodlines at the beginning level and the more useful ones higher up, which means that if someone wishes to have the best of elf and dwarf abilities, they will probably run out of feats.

I'll use the racial paragons as higher-up feats on specific Bloodlines. Consider those more advanced feats as paragon levels without Hit Dice attached (no HP, SP, BAB, saves, etc, just the single ability and attribute boost and maybe a bonus caster level all in one feat x3).

In sum, with Bloodline feats it's better to ignore all your normal racial properties and construct a new race from the feats.
Sphyre on another thread mentioned planning something like this as part of a "4e" conversion but I'd like to introduce it as an alternative to the ever-popular racial paragons and templates.

Also, as possibly mentioned previously, Heritage feats need reworking. Major fixes.
I have yet to meet (in person) any gamer willing to give up 3-5 slots for the measly bonuses they give.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prak, the Mad 04-10-07, 04:00 PM	ok, I'm fairly sure I can't be the only person who's noticed that with what's out so far, things are not balanced, which makes games difficult while we're waiting for K and Frank to get more stuff to us. We need skill and magic feats, we need class balance, and we just need some other various things so we can run games while we wait for more Tome goodness. so, I propose we all think up some stuff to tide us over and allow proper games, and possibly help the guys with ideas. who's in?
sigma999 04-10-07, 10:45 PM	OK Mr. Mad ... I have one that's been brewing in my mind for a few days now. This is my favorite topic, btw, someone just asking me to go hog wild on creativity! My beef for this post: The [Reserve] feats and [Heritage] feats. Reserve feats... - at first it was a good idea. Glad Monte thought of it but sadly some lesser WOTC designer makes it reality. Snooze ya lose, Monte. -_- - it needs work! MAJOR work. I just saw today some people here running around claiming that "Storm Bolt" essentially makes a lesser Lightning Bolt with NO SAVE. I believe that is a typo and will be errata'd soon, but mehhh w/e. - the lack of diversity stunned me. it's nothing like Elemental Substitution... more like Weapon Focus. you mean to tell me, o mighty Complete Mage, that I can not have a [Acid] version of Fiery Burst? Just make it Elemental Burst and depending on the highest level type of w/e element you have availible to cast, that's what you can use? No, that's too powerful, right?.. Wrong. It's so simple to make Reserve feats with more options but it simply wasn't done that way, and options were limited... for flavor. - not enough Reserve feats. I noticed 2 [Water] and 2 [Air], and yet only 1 of [Fire] and [Lightning] each!?!? YAAARRRR Don't force me to use "Elemental Spellcasting" from Planar Handbook just to get +1 SCL on a single element for my Fire specialist, and without any other bonus!!! Sure it STACKS and all but since the Reserve feats are so much better why does something like Elemental Spellcasting have to suck so much. My fix: make Reserve feats work within limited spell types yet with diverse uses. The Necromancy touch one could be something that allows you to use a minor (Level 1-2) spell once a round, even as a Swift action maybe (if you took the feat twice?) The elemental ones are so easy to make better, simply make the element match whichever spell is availible at the player's choice. The Illusion disguise feat needs to last longer.. hell, all the self-buffs need to last longer, but I'll get to that later. I could keep going but I hope you get the idea. That feat from 3.0 (or was it archmage ability?) that changes a spell into an SLA... the requirement of "the spell's level -8" was too high and I doubt any L17+ mage would exchange a slot to cast Magic Missile, unalterable by any metamagic feats, for a single slot of their best spell, even if it were "at will"...But it was a start, and possibly what inspired the Reserve feats. However, we need more. We need a simpler, less costly method of turning spells into at-will abilities now that the Warlock and it's wacky "I can do it whenever I want" powers made a debut. I don't quite know what to say could be better with Reserve feats, but it simply wasn't enough with what we have now. I am a little disappointed but still point and laugh at the rules lawyers that headwagged and psssshaw'd at anything in 3.0 or earlier that remotely looked like "at will spellcasting", yet those same old-school-gamers hungrily jump at the chance to abuse Warlock, Reserve feats, and Psionicist now that they are here and not just house rules. OK.. I admit, the fence-sitting turncoat bigot attitude makes me pssed but I still laugh, I try. Heritage feats.... - OK what went on here between [Heritage] and the [Abyssal-Heritor] and [Devil-Born]??? What is this.. everyone for themself? Nothing is compatible these days.. we have "invocation" levels and "maneuver" levels and non of it stacks, as if Arcane/Divine/Psionic weren't enough to worry about! Same with these bloodline feats... they don't stack well enough, or go far enough, to be worth anything later in levels. - Heritage feats need to be even more exponential in power, like Frank and K did with the feat reworks. I'm talkin about when you get a Heritage feat to give you spells, you get SPELLLLSSSS out the wazoo. Like DOMAIN amount of spells, straight to your spell list, and if you don't have one, YOU DO NOW! - Why did the designers stop with the advancement? There's not many Heritage for body parts, and the ones that do don't progress farther than "you have vestigial gliding wings" and "you have 2 tentacles". .... So? Where's the rest? When do I get to grow horns and a huge tail n sht and my beh*lder (non-open source, ya know) eyes starting popping out of my skull?!? I refuse to take a prestige class for all that due to the extra crap that comes with them, I just want to alter the fundamentals of my race! - Tome of Fiends is a start.. the demonic classes to replace the mistake that was monster hit die was a good idea but we need more. My proposal: bloodline feats. and every race has the basic one for their own race. An elf one, a dwarf one, an orc one, a goblinoid one (with advancements for goblin subraces) and yes a human one (to give... a bonus feat? <_<) which will begin paths into pseudo-paragon feat chains without the crappy parasitic twin hit die attached. Some monster ones might be , [devil], [angel] and so on. Combining races will be as simple as slapping certain chain-beginning feats on and totalling bonuses, no templates required. Effects that work on specific races will check for which bloodlines notified in [ ]are present, and either benefit or break the character as result. Racial Enemy and Bane are examples, and items that work for race-specific (which we could have a lot more of, mind you). For bloodline feats that affect age, use the more desirable out of all of them when multiple bloodlines are added, like for a half-elf... (Note: Racial bonuses of most kind will mostly stack with themselves, unless special cases mentioned, and if official rules say otherwise.. well.. then that needs to change cuz it's plain stupid) Also, when a feat has something like [human] next to you must be at least partly human to acquire it. [b]Humanblood Prereq: INT 3+, stuff (maybe) Benefit: You are a humanoid [human]. You gain a bonus feat and +1 Competence bonus to 4 skills of your choice. Special: If you are a beginning character your start age is X+YdZ, middle age is blah blah and venerable is yackyack. You die of old age at mehmehmeh. [b]Human Diversity Prereq: human Benefit: Your INT counts as 2 points higher for determining skill points. This gain is retroactive. [b]Elfblood Prereq: INT 3+, stuff Benefit: You are a humanoid [elf]. You gain a +2 Racial bonus to Spot and Listen. You gain the feats Low Light Vision (maybe) and Sleep Resistant. Special: If you are a beginning character your start age is retarded slow elf kid aging X+YdZ, middle age is a too high blah blah and venerable is the incredible elf yackyack. You die of old age at .. well.. never. [b]Elfin Curiosity Prereq: elf Benefit: Gain Detect Secret Doors (Ex) and +2 Racial bonus to Search. [b]Sleep Resistant [Bloodline, Elf] Prereq: dunno... don't want to just put "elf" Benefit: You need half as much sleep as default to become rested and gain +4 Racial bonus to resist [Sleep] effects (which would be applied also to spells that affect dreams, which are [i]legion...). You must at least refrain from spellcasting for 8 hours to regain spells and this is yet another flaw in D&D because races that do not sleep should not be required to FAKE DOING IT! How about "regain spells by the hour, each and any hour spent not spellcasting", OK? Yeah! Great! Cumulative: Maybe be taken 2 additional times. The second time halves sleep time required again and adds another +4 Racial bonus against [Sleep] The third time makes the character immune to [Sleep] in any form (like a Warforged) Note that not every world has 24 hour rotation cycles... take that into account... and note that I made the feat to WORK ON MANY WORLDS! woooo Low Light Vision Prereq: ?, maybe "+2 Racial bonus to Spot or more"? don't want to be restrictive from the beginning doing something stupid like "elf only!" Benefit: You can see twice as far as default in partial light conditions (or whatever the text is for this weird crap) [b]Increased Longevity Prereq: no farkin clue, maybe spellcaster of some kind? Benefit: Double each age category for your race. You are now sterile (so powergamers don't pass on this trait to others). [b]Immortality Prereq: uhhhh.. Increased Longevity? Benefit: You have no maximum Venerable age. However you are still aged so penalties from each age category remain. Who will be paying for your MediCare, you old fart? Your 65 years of Income Taxes have all been spent on missiles and oil by the current president! Buahahaaaa you should have wished for eternal youth! Oh, wait... noo what is this next feat!?! [b]Eternal Youth Prereq: hell yeah! oh, and Increased Longevity! Benefit: Better to burn out than fade away! You don't gain age penalties of any kind and physically remain in the Young Adult age category until death. You still age and die of old age. Doh! [b]Prakblood [Bloodline] Prereq: WOTC forum member Benefit: You are satanist and proud of it. Hell, why not? Better than being Baptist, eh? Too bad Sig is a Celtic pagan/Hindu/Buddhist/Catholic, you'd have something in common! :rolleyes: You gain Initiative +2 and Patience for New Frank And K Material -2. You may Flame a poster within 5 feet 1/day as a Spell-Like Ability. OK I'm done now, until tomorrow maybe.. Oh, and this last bit isn't a reaction to anything but I'll be introducing my Domesticated, Mongrel, and Inbred templates as well as "niche " templates for races sometime soon for the lot of you to ignore and/or insult or use in your games as you see fit. They work by modifying the properties of any and all races within the character applied for better and for worse, so you can have your Inbred Soldier Orc with STR+12 but barely smarter than a reptile (or w/e the result was last week when I added it all up!) and your cute and cuddly but dumb-as-dirt Domesticated Flop-Earred Elf for general companionship or abuse (and eventual consumption? yeesh.). Another objective was for more diversity within basic D&D races without increasing LA, and I hope I accomplished it. The presentation will be nicer than my previous (read: failed) threads. I got to thinkin that maybe the fantasy races of D&D could use a realistic application of genetics, maybe a little selective breeding in specific settings like war-breed for monstrous cultures or a dramatically domesticated type for vast powerful high-magic cities. The inspiration for breeds was something like this (and this is not the source but simply a sample article on the subject): link (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VRT-4FF20DD-P&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F08%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=139aabb18e9d2da08c2c7d15be92ac6c)
Prak, the Mad 04-11-07, 03:18 AM	looks good.. I do like my ability to flame posters w/i 5' once a day... just need to use it more, I suppose... :)
Prak, the Mad 04-18-07, 01:34 PM	bump
katarl 04-19-07, 09:57 AM	You consider Frank and Ks work balanced? I'v always felt (at least Ks) work a bit biased and not very useful for normal games. Sigmas work looks good, if a little... incomplete... and strange. I think the feats you describe deserve their own subcategory, call it, genetic? orientation? the last one maybe mentally ill? If it were me, i'd make them traits or something other than feats, but its not me at all.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-19-07, 11:52 AM	I think a bloodline should give only a skill bonus initiallyor a minor ability (0th level spell 1/day, low light vision, Stability [dwarf], et al). So something like: Human: Base (no change) Dwarf: gain dwarven Stability Elf: Immunity to Sleep spells and effects Gnome: Speak with Animals (burrowing creatures only) 1/day Halfling: +1 to all saves Orc: Scent Celestial:Lightning or Acid Resistance 5 Fiendish: Fire or Cold resistance 5 Ilithid: Daze 1/day Earth: Sonic Resistance 5 Fire: Fire resistance 5 Water: Acid Resistane 5 (Cold Resistance 5) Air: Lightning Resistance 5 Dragon: +1 Natural Armor Changeling: Change Self 1/day ....These are just examples. Better abilities would need to be selectable as additional feats after these initial feats.
DarkRhystar 04-19-07, 01:49 PM	I think a bloodline should give only a skill bonus initiallyor a minor ability (0th level spell 1/day, low light vision, Stability [dwarf], et al). Which is why they will suck. Seriously, you get 7 feats. Why would you spend an entire feat on a pathetic minor ability?
Prak, the Mad 04-19-07, 01:57 PM	You consider Frank and Ks work balanced? I'v always felt (at least Ks) work a bit biased and not very useful for normal games. Sigmas work looks good, if a little... incomplete... and strange. I think the feats you describe deserve their own subcategory, call it, genetic? orientation? the last one maybe mentally ill? If it were me, i'd make them traits or something other than feats, but its not me at all. well, I think it's alot better than the current double standard of caster vrs. martialist...
NobodyRemembersThis 04-19-07, 02:15 PM	If ye look at the list, they are better than the skill feats and quite a few other base line feats - I ended up retooling them. Feats should be balanced against feats appearing in the CORE, not the splatbooks.
Tsuul 04-19-07, 03:34 PM	Who broke this thread? Sigma999??? possible fix: change the url at the bottom of your first post to Hide the address. HIDDEN (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VRT-4FF20DD-P&_user=10&_coverDate=02/08/2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=139aabb18e9d2da08c2c7d15be92ac6c)
Prak, the Mad 04-19-07, 04:43 PM	If ye look at the list, they are better than the skill feats and quite a few other base line feats - I ended up retooling them. Feats should be balanced against feats appearing in the CORE, not the splatbooks. umm... you don't know what I'm referring to... do you? I'm looking at books written by a couple of players, not Tome of Magic and Tome of Battle...
Kresalak 04-20-07, 01:30 PM	You consider Frank and Ks work balanced? I'v always felt (at least Ks) work a bit biased and not very useful for normal games. Frank and K wrote the Tome series together, so it's all both of theirs.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-21-07, 10:57 AM	umm... you don't know what I'm referring to... do you? I'm looking at books written by a couple of players, not Tome of Magic and Tome of Battle...It's still a splatbook - not a WotC splatbook, but a splatbook nonetheless. And if it is the same Frank that got banned from these forums back before 3.5 came out, Then it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. His idea of balance is more rules savy but no less broken than Monty Haul...er, I mean Monty Cooke.
Prak, the Mad 04-23-07, 10:27 AM	what, you think there isn't a serious balance problem between casters and martials? There is! A full caster can drop pebbles of concentrated damage, while even a multi-classed martial is sitting there basically being a second shield for the casters... and when it gets into savy multi-classing for casters, they can cast as a character 3 times their actual level!
sigma999 04-27-07, 07:43 PM	Sigmas work looks good, if a little... incomplete... and strange. I think the feats you describe deserve their own subcategory, call it, genetic? orientation? the last one maybe mentally ill? If it were me, i'd make them traits or something other than feats, but its not me at all. Awww thanks :3 ... "strange"... Yeah I have more on DOC on my PC, more later, I'll link to it here. Sorry I can't respond to all yall right now, no time left T_T
sigma999 05-01-07, 07:51 PM	Which is why they will suck. Seriously, you get 7 feats. Why would you spend an entire feat on a pathetic minor ability? One thing different that maybe I forgot to mention: with the Bloodline feats, it was intended to replace the whole character race. Abstractly, the race is a pool of unspent feat slots. Say, example, 5? I haven't determined what the average would be yet, I'm still making observations. Point-wise, elf and dwarf always get more; this will drop if all basic LA+0 races are equal, without any drawbacks. "Defects" from the UA book might be used to grant 1-2 more Bloodline feats. The player or NPC then selects the feats from specific trees and this determines the race of an individual, allowing much more mongrelization and diversity than "half-elf" or "half-orc". Expect some optimization by players, but I intend on putting the less powerful Bloodlines at the beginning level and the more useful ones higher up, which means that if someone wishes to have the best of elf and dwarf abilities, they will probably run out of feats. I'll use the racial paragons as higher-up feats on specific Bloodlines. Consider those more advanced feats as paragon levels without Hit Dice attached (no HP, SP, BAB, saves, etc, just the single ability and attribute boost and maybe a bonus caster level all in one feat x3). In sum, with Bloodline feats it's better to ignore all your normal racial properties and construct a new race from the feats. Sphyre on another thread mentioned planning something like this as part of a "4e" conversion but I'd like to introduce it as an alternative to the ever-popular racial paragons and templates. Also, as possibly mentioned previously, Heritage feats need reworking. Major fixes. I have yet to meet (in person) any gamer willing to give up 3-5 slots for the measly bonuses they give.