Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ainamacar 04-28-07, 03:32 AM	I like the idea of the loremaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm), but am always disappointed with how uninspiring the Secret class ability is. A player of mine is about to enter the class, so I've decided to rewrite the ability from scratch. The overall strength of the loremaster is increased, but I don't think it is too much (well...any more than is inherent with your average full caster progression). We're still far from incantatrix land. The new abilities generally cleave more closely to the direct benefits of knowledge than those of the original. Hopefully they are sufficiently different from other divination- or knowledge-oriented classes like the Archivist or Divine Oracle to remain interesting. The balance of the class starts with the Applicable Knowledge secret (you gain any single feat). A core loremaster gains that ability by 5th level (perhaps 3rd for a smart wizard, perhaps 7th for an above average cleric) and wastes no time taking it. Below that I gave abilities that were, in my opinion, on the level of weaker feats. Above that I tried to give them flavorful options that are not feats, but might be comparable to a strong one (with prereqs to match). Of course, Master Linguist surpasses Polyglot, but that was pretty much the least worthwhile epic feat since Epic Nosepicking, given the way language is generally abstracted in D&D. Nevertheless, I'm sure I've left room for exploits of which I've forgotten or never before heard. So help me tweak the mechanics, change names, add new secrets, and remove the ones that ought-not-be. Lavishly praising the darn thing, if it's any good, is also fine. :P Secret At 1st level and every two levels higher than 1st (3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th), the loremaster chooses one secret from the table below. All loremaster secrets require a minimum loremaster level. Unlike the core loremaster, you do not add your Intelligence bonus for the purposes of qualifying for these secrets. You can take any secret for which you have attained sufficient loremaster levels, but you can't take any secret more than once unless otherwise specified. All secrets are extraordinary abilities unless otherwise specified. Certain secrets allow you to add spells to your spell list, at a level specified by class lists in the secret description. Spells that do not appear on any of those lists are added (or not) at a level of the DMs discretion. Lvl Name Benefit 1 Briefing Creatures use Knowledge skill with half your ranks for a week 1 Clever Questioning Add Intelligence modifier to Gather Information checks 1 Extra Skill Gain 1 extra skill point per loremaster level 1 Fastidious Scholar Gain Skill Focus(Decipher Script), avoid false conclusions 1 Focused Study Gain Skill Focus in any single Knowledge skill 1 Instant Mastery Skill with no ranks gains 4, becomes loremaster class skill 1 Know Thy Enemy +1 CL and +2 on skills against creatures with specified type 1 Secrets of Learning Two skills with at least one ranks are always class skills 3 Ancient Lore +4 to lore checks 3 Comprehensive Knowledge +1 on all Knowledge and lore checks 3 Dabbler Treat all skills as trained 3 Experienced Magician Take 10 with Use Magic Device 1/day, avoid mishaps 3 Fast Divination Apply Rapid Spell to all applicable divinations 3 Magical Studies Gain the Spell Focus feat in one school of magic 3 Secret Language You learn a secret language 3 Timely Recollection Reroll any Knowledge or lore check 1/day 5 Applicable Knowledge Gain any single feat 5 Bestiary Author Always roll twice when identifying monsters 5 Note the Implications Synergy bonuses from Knowledge skills increase by 2 5 Powerful Divination Caster level for all divinations increases by 1 7 Compr. Knowledge, Greater +2 on all Knowledge and lore checks 7 Master Linguist Learn all languages, skill bonuses with specific ones 7 Spell Research Learn any spell of the same type (arcane/divine) you cast 7 Treatise Author Check with specific Knowledge skill is natural 20 1/day 9 Exhaustive Divination Learn any 3 divination spells 9 Newfound Arcana Gain bonus spell of 1 level below maximum you can cast 9 Systematic Application Add Int modifier as insight bonus to nearly any roll 1/day Ancient Lore (3) You gain a +4 bonus to all lore checks. Applicable Knowledge (5) You gain any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites. Bestiary Author (5) Whenever you make a knowledge check to identify a monster (and learn additional information about it) you may roll twice and take the higher result. Briefing (1) Once per week you may teach up to 1 creature per 3 class levels information that may be relevant in the near future. Select a single knowledge skill. For one week creatures you teach can make knowledge checks with that skill as though they had half your ranks in that skill. These effective ranks overlap with any ranks they may already have, and may not exceed their HD+3. While under this effect these creatures gain the normal benefits of this knowledge, including being able to make trained checks and gaining synergy bonuses. Since these are not actual ranks, however, they cannot be used to meet the prerequisites of any feat or class. It takes 2 uninterrupted hours to use this ability, during which all involved creatures must be able to see and hear the others. Clever Questioning (1) You may add your Intelligence modifier to all Gather Information checks. Comprehensive Knowledge (3) You gain a +1 bonus to all knowledge and lore checks. Comprehensive Knowledge, Greater (7) You gain a +2 bonus to all knowledge and lore checks. This stacks with the benefit of Comprehensive Knowledge. Dabbler (3) You may attempt trained checks with all skills, even those in which you have no ranks. Exhaustive Divination (9) You add any 3 divination spells of a level you can already cast to the spell list of a single spellcasting class you possess. The first class in the appropriate list below which has a given spell dictates the level of the spell for you. If you use a scrollbook you may scribe the spells into it at no cost. If you cast spontaneously, the spell is also considered a bonus spell known. You cast these spells as the same type, arcane or divine, sd normal for the class to which you add them. You may select this secret more than once, each time choosing 4 more divination spells that are not already on your spell list. Arcane Caster: Sorcerer/Wizard, Wu Jen, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Assassin, Hexblade, Paladin, Blackguard, Ranger Divine Caster: Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer/Wizard, Wu Jen, Bard, Paladin, Blackguard, Ranger, Assassin, Hexblade Experienced Magician (3) You may take 10 on a Use Magic Device check 1/day, even if distracted or threatened. In addition, when using Use Magic Device or casting from a scroll you never cause mishaps. Extra Skill (1) Each time you gain a loremaster level, starting at the level you select this secret, you gain one additional skill point. Fast Divination (3) You may apply the benefits of the Rapid Spell metamagic feat to any applicable divination spell you cast. This does not increase the level of the spell. If you normally increase the casting time of a spell when applying a metamagic feat, you may ignore that for the purposes of this abilty. Fastidious Scholar (1) You gain the Skill Focus(Decipher Script) feat. In addition, you never come to false conclusions when making Decipher Script checks. Focused Study (1) You gain the Skill Focus feat for any single knowledge skill. You may select this secret more than once, each time applying it to a different knowledge skill. Instant Mastery (1) You gain 4 ranks of a skill in which you have no ranks. In addition, the skill becomes a loremaster class skill for you. Know Thy Enemy (1) Select a creature type (and subtype, if necessary) from the ranger's favored enemy list. Whenever you target a creature of the selected type with a spell you cast, your spell has caster level +1 against it for all purposes. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus on all skill or ability checks related to creatures of this type. You may select this secret more than once, selecting the same type or a different one. If you select the same type multiple times, the benefits stack. Magical Studies (3) You gain the Spell Focus feat for a school of magic you select. You may take this secret more than once, each time choosing a different school of magic. Master Linguist (7) You can speak all languages you can physically reproduce. If you are literate, you can also write all languages. You still understand languages that you are physically unable to reproduce, and magical assistance may allow you to speak them. Languages you have specifically learned (such as those known at first level or gained from spending points in speak language) gain an additional benefit. You gain a +1 bonus to Bluff, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Intimidate, and Perform checks made predominately in one or more of those languages. Newfound Arcana (9) You gain a bonus spell one level below the highest level spell you can cast in one of your spellcasting classes. If the highest level spell you can cast in this class increases, the level of the bonus spell increases as well. Treat the bonus spell as if gained through having a high ability score. Note the Implications (5) The synergy bonuses you receive from having ranks in knowledge skills increases by 2. Powerful Divination (5) You caster level for all divination spells increases by 1. Secret Language (3) You learn a single secret language of your choice. You may select this secret more than once, each time choosing a different secret language. Secrets of Learning (1) Select any two skills in which you have at least 1 rank. These skills are always class skills for you. You may select this secret more than once, each time choosing a different pair of skills. Spell Research (7) You may add a single spell to your spell list of any level you can cast. The spell must be drawn from the same type, arcane or divine, as the spellcasting class to which you add the ability. If you use a scrollbook you may scribe the spell into it at no cost. If you cast spontaneously, the spell is also considered a bonus spell known. You may select this secret more than once, each time selecting a different spell to learn. The first class in the appropriate list below which has a given spell dictates the level of the spell for you. Arcane Caster: Sorcerer/Wizard, Wu Jen, Bard, Assassin, Hexblade Divine Caster: Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Blackguard, Ranger Systematic Application (9) Once per day, you may add your Intelligence modifier as an insight bonus to any attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or level check. You must decide to use this ability before you roll the check. Timely Recollection (3) You may reroll one knowledge or lore check per day just after you have learned the result of the original attempt. You keep the higher roll. Treatise Author (7) Choose a single knowledge skill. Once per day, before you make a check with this skill, you may declare the result a natural 20. You may select this secret more than once, each time choosing a different knowledge skill. New Feat Loremaster Secret [General] Prerequisite: Secret class ability You gain a loremaster secret for which you have gained sufficient class levels to qualify. You may not select a secret you already possess, except as allowed by individual secrets. Special: You can take this feat multiple times. ---------------- Change log Removed the Penetrating/Fast/Effortless/Instant Detection line of secrets. Upon reflection, these abilities just aren't sufficiently in-line with class flavor. A better detect magic doesn't have much to do with lore, obscure magical knowledge, etc. Exhaustive Divination originally added all divination spells to spell list. Who knows what I was smoking. Experienced Magician originally allowed the recipient to always take 10 on Use Magic Device checks. Magical Studies originally gave a stackable +1 to the save DC for a school of magic. Power Divination originally gave +2 to caster level. Spell Research no longer allows selecting a spell from any class list.
calprinicus 04-28-07, 03:49 AM	dude you have way to much time on your hands
Perseus_Stoned 04-28-07, 11:41 AM	Alright, here are the secrets that effectively emulate feats (either the exact same or worse): Dabbler (3) You may attempt trained checks with all skills, even those in which you have no ranks. Applicable Knowledge (5) You gain any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites. Effortless Detection (5) You may maintain the effect of detect spells of 2nd level or lower that require concentration without actually concentrating for up to one minute per class level. Here are the secrets I find to be incredibly over-powered: Exhaustive Divination (9) You add all divination spells to the spell list of a single spellcasting class you possess. Determine the spell level for which you cast a given spell as described above. Experienced Magician (3) You may take 10 on Use Magic Device checks, even if distracted or threatened. In addition, when using Use Magic Device or casting from a scroll you never cause mishaps. Fast Divination (3) You may apply the benefits of the Rapid Spell metamagic feat to any applicable divination spell you cast. This does not increase the level of the spell. Inherent Detection (7) Detect spells of 2nd level or lower that are on your spell list become spell-like abilities you can activate at will as a free action. Unlike most spell-like abilities, these are tied to your spellcasting ability. Treat them in all respects (except those just stated) as though you had cast them with the appropriate spellcasting class, including the effect of other loremaster secrets, if applicable. Magical Studies (3) Select a school of magic. The save DC of spells from that school increases by one. You may take this feat more than once, each time choosing a different school of magic. Penetrating Detection (1) Detect spells of 2nd level and lower you cast can ignore the specific barriers listed in their descripton that normally block them. In addition, all such spells gain the benefits of the enlarge metamagic feat for free. This does not change the spells' level or casting time. Powerful Divination (5) You caster level for all divination spells increases by 2. Spell Research (7) You add any spell of a level you can cast to the class list of a spellcasting class you possess and may cast it as normal. If you use a spell book you add the spell to your spell book at no cost. If you are a spontaneous caster you gain the spell as a bonus spell known. Determine the spell level for which you cast a chosen spell as described above. You may select this secret more than once, each time choosing a different spell. Here are the secerts I like: Clever Questioning (1) You may add your Intelligence modifier to all Gather Information checks. Extra Skill (1) Each time you gain a loremaster level, starting at the level you select this secret, you gain one additional skill point. Master Linguist (7) You can speak all languages you can physically reproduce. If you are literate, you can also write all languages. You still understand languages that you are physically unable to reproduce, and magical assistance may allow you to speak them. Languages you have specifically learned (such as those known at first level or gained from spending points in speak language) gain an additional benefit. You gain a +1 bonus to Bluff, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Intimidate, and Perform checks made predominately in one or more of those languages. Note the Implications (5) The synergy bonuses you receive from having ranks in knowledge skills increases by 2. Secret Language (3) You learn a single secret language of your choice. You may select this secret more than once, each time choosing a different secret language. My advice is, if you use this variant, double-check some of the emulate-feat secrets and consider scrapping all the ones I consider overpowered. Also only make it acessable by bards. I like this variant, but with full caster benefits these secrets are way too good. Bards sort of get shafted already, so show them some love.
The_Shaman 04-28-07, 01:18 PM	Actually, iirc Master Linguist is similar to the Polyglot epic feat. I think it's okay, for the most part, but the loremaster isn't that bad in itself. I wish it could use the secret ability to select a feat several times, not just once.
Ainamacar 04-28-07, 02:45 PM	Here are the secrets I find to be incredibly over-powered: Exhaustive Divination (9) You add all divination spells to the spell list of a single spellcasting class you possess. Determine the spell level for which you cast a given spell as described above. Experienced Magician (3) You may take 10 on Use Magic Device checks, even if distracted or threatened. In addition, when using Use Magic Device or casting from a scroll you never cause mishaps. Fast Divination (3) You may apply the benefits of the Rapid Spell metamagic feat to any applicable divination spell you cast. This does not increase the level of the spell. Inherent Detection (7) Detect spells of 2nd level or lower that are on your spell list become spell-like abilities you can activate at will as a free action. Unlike most spell-like abilities, these are tied to your spellcasting ability. Treat them in all respects (except those just stated) as though you had cast them with the appropriate spellcasting class, including the effect of other loremaster secrets, if applicable. Magical Studies (3) Select a school of magic. The save DC of spells from that school increases by one. You may take this feat more than once, each time choosing a different school of magic. Penetrating Detection (1) Detect spells of 2nd level and lower you cast can ignore the specific barriers listed in their descripton that normally block them. In addition, all such spells gain the benefits of the enlarge metamagic feat for free. This does not change the spells' level or casting time. Powerful Divination (5) You caster level for all divination spells increases by 2. Spell Research (7) You add any spell of a level you can cast to the class list of a spellcasting class you possess and may cast it as normal. If you use a spell book you add the spell to your spell book at no cost. If you are a spontaneous caster you gain the spell as a bonus spell known. Determine the spell level for which you cast a chosen spell as described above. You may select this secret more than once, each time choosing a different spell. OK, let's look at those ones. Exhaustive Divination: I really want this one to remain in some form, so hopefully it can be salvaged. Now, I gather you don't really like adding spells to other spell lists (at least in this context). What if it were limited however? Lots of spells is definitely too much, but how about 3 of any level? Divination spells just aren't mechanically game-breaking. Most of the really good ones are already available to the classes that might take loremaster. And if not, many aren't that hard to get on one's list other ways (via domains, for example). What about choosing ~5 divinations of any level? Experienced Magician: OK, I fully admit I'm not very knowledgeable with everything that Use Magic Device can make happen. What if the take 10 thing was once or twice per day, would there be a prerequisite level for which getting that is reasonable? Fast Divination: Here I have to disagree pretty strongly that it is inherently overpowered (though it may be made available too early). I went through the PHB and Spell Compendium to see exactly what spells this would effect and how. The spells and their new casting times are below. Arcane Eye (1 min) Clair/Clair (1 min) Commune (1 min) Commune with Nature (1 min) Contact Other Plane (1 min) Discern Location (1 min) Divination (1 min) Find the Path (full round) Legend Lore (1 minute if thing is at hand) Stone Tell (1 min) Brain Spider (full round) Discern Shapechanger (full round) Dream Sight (full round) Eye of Power (1 min) Lay of the Land (full round) Omen of Peril (full round) Spontaneous Search (full round) Nearly all of these that now take 1 minute to cast previously took 10, and those that now take a full round previously took 1-3 rounds. The ones that now take a full round are thus slightly more useful in a pinch. And, in my estimation, most of the time the party has 1 minute to spare to cast divinations they probably would have had 10. If there are obvious abuses I'm missing, please let me know. Otherwise this ability is useful, but not ridiculous. Inherent Detection: OK, this was the capstone in the detection chain of secrets, and it is dang good. It is clear I value the Detect Spells less strongly than you do, and I may be wrong to do so. However, if the chain stays in any form, I'd like there to be something like this. Would it become acceptable if I were to drop the at-will part and let each one be automatically quickened (and thus a swift action to activate)? Or, conversely, if I were to keep them at will but kept the normal activation times? I'd lean toward the former since limited spell slots means you wouldn't just keep them all on 24/7. Magical Studies: In retrospect, I can see you're correct. Stackable Spell Focus is a bad idea, even if someone can only take it once for a given school of magic. Even if they couldn't take it to fifth level, that might be acceptable in some builds with master specialist, for example. So, I think I will change that one to simply let you choose a single Spell Focus feat. If they want Greater Spell Focus, let them take it with Applicable Knowledge later. Penetrating Detection: Is an enlarged detect spell that can penetrate a stone wall really such a huge advantage? Is it inherently overpowered, or just made available too early? Would removing either the penetration or enlarge improvements make it acceptable? Powerful Divination: I was using the Oracle Domain as the template here. Given that a character could have the oracle domain and then gain this, I could see the problem. I will set it at +1 and keep the level 5 requirement for now. This makes it somewhat like the Domain Focus feat (which I consider pretty weak, unless your domain gets blasphemy/holy word) but more broadly applicable. Divination as a whole (and clearly the game designers agreed) benefits less from these sorts of improvements than other schools. Spell Research: There is no need to get into whether the now-settled Extra Spell question went in the right direction, let's just go ahead and assume for a second that wizards shouldn't get to cast heal or miracle. I think this ability, which I totally love in principle, can be salvaged by limiting the spell level you can choose and/or whether you must select spells from arcane or divine lists. I would lean toward just requiring you to pick a spell from the same type of list. A wizard with a wu jen or bard spell he normally couldn't cast shouldn't break a darn thing. Thoughts? My advice is, if you use this variant, double-check some of the emulate-feat secrets and consider scrapping all the ones I consider overpowered. Also only make it accessible by bards. I like this variant, but with full caster benefits these secrets are way too good. Bards sort of get shafted already, so show them some love. Well, I'm not going to limit these improvements to bards. I appreciate that bards should get more benefit out of the loremaster than they do, but I'm not out to fix that. As for full casters getting too much out of it, this is the tone down phase of the balance. The loremaster definitely gets less than many other full caster classes, and I think I can find a happy middle ground compared to its immediate peers even with the improved secret ability. If you nerf one, nerf them all, but that's really beyond the scope of this update. Thanks for the thoughts, I'll get to updating some of the abilities after I eat.
Perseus_Stoned 04-28-07, 02:56 PM	Well, I'm not going to limit these improvements to bards. I appreciate that bards should get more benefit out of the loremaster than they do, but I'm not out to fix that. As for full casters getting too much out of it, this is the tone down phase of the balance. The loremaster definitely gets less than many other full caster classes, and I think I can find a happy middle ground compared to its immediate peers even with the improved secret ability. If you nerf one, nerf them all, but that's really beyond the scope of this update. Thanks for the thoughts, I'll get to updating some of the abilities after I eat. I'll come back for further revision later, but I'd just like to address this paragraph right here. As it stands I understand that this gets less than other full caster classes- but this does not mean it is balanced. Have you heard of the power curve? Effectively it states that most older concepts are becoming weaker and weaker, because everyone is constantly out to make their class "as good or better". As it stands I find loremaster 100% balanced for full casters and would only consider your new additions as a possibility for bard characters. As it stands it is simply too powerful, no full casting class deserves as many benefits as this class would bring. I'm not trying to "nerf them all", but I am trying to encourage one more playable class, versus yet another one that should get nerfed. You can "balance" this towards an unbalanced class, but if you're already doing it without a concept of balance in mind, there's no reason to come here and ask for help with it- you already have shown you want it to be in a high-power spectrum, which can only be balanced against whatever other high-powered things you have in your campaign. No one here can help you if thats the case.