Made a bad choice to begin, and need help to correct pls...... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Made a bad choice to begin, and need help to correct pls...... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheGrimReeper
04-24-07, 07:32 PM Hi everybody. Rookie here, and i really need help to find the path. When we started this adventure, i wanted to be a Dragon Disciple. And for that i needed an arcane speel caster, like a sourcere. I did not have acces to the books with duskblade or hexblade.
So i took a sourcere and i am now just leveling up to 6 lvl I am having probelms choosing my feat and my 3 lvl spell. Any
sourgestion?
I also have a problem with when to cross over to the DD. I am thinking about taking one lvl of war mage to get the feat of casting spells in armor, and then a fighter lvl. So i will end up sor8/fighter1/warmage1/DD10
Is it totally wrong?
My stats and so on are
str 13, dex 17, con 16, int 16, wis 15, cha 18
HP 40
Feats:toughness, dodge:rolleyes: craft wounderess items:rolleyes: ( as i said, i am really a rookie )
spells: detect magic, read m, ray of frost, mage hand, daze, light
magic missile, shield, mage amor, identify
Ice knife, bull strenghts

so guys, i really need help. The others in the party have played for many years, but dont really have time to help me research, and after many hours here, i can see i am in trouble:confused:
Tuhljin
04-24-07, 09:08 PM It's really rather a waste to take that level of warmage if you can avoid it. Complete Mage has alternate class features that, if your DM allows it, let you replace one class feature with another. One, for fighters, lets you cast spells in light armor just as that level of warmage you were looking at would. If you're taking a level of fighter anyway, combine the two functions together with this alternate class feature. It's called Armored Mage, and that's on pg 32 of Complete Mage.
Tytalus
04-24-07, 09:46 PM This question is better suited for the Character Optimization board.

DD is not a good PrC for a caster as it does progress spellcasting. It's a PrC that best works for melee fighters, but your poor BAB and low hit points are going to make that difficult as well. As such, you are bound to have a weak character. Similarly, your feat choices are quite poor.

I would ask the DM to be allowed to remake the character. Given that you are a rookie and made some rather painful mistakes, that should be ok.
TheGrimReeper
04-25-07, 12:59 AM Tuhljin>> Well, i am sure my DM will let me replace one feat, i have never used the craft wounderes items anyway. So if i take that feat, i will have no problems casting arcane spells in light amor?

Tytalus>>Thanks, i thought it would be the right place to write. I have seen some threads here regarding the same.
I am not sure my DM would make me remake my character in the middle of the campaign.
As i can calculate, i would at character lvl 20, hav a BaB +13, and then plus the stranght bonus i will get, would make a meele attack bonus of +19. Is that really that bad?
I done see my self as being a frontline character, but more as a between long ranged and frontliners, and stalker of pray around the group. Would that work?
Gamili
04-25-07, 01:03 AM Is this an attempt at a Gish build? I can't make sense of it. I'm calling unsalvagable on this one. Plead to your DM to roll up a new character.
Scribbler
04-25-07, 01:05 AM Take another look at the warmage's armored ability:
"Nor does this ability apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class."

So that would only help your few warmage spells. It would actually be completely useless for your sorceror casting. As was said above, the fighter alternate class ability does the same thing, but it would actually work for you.
Tuhljin
04-25-07, 01:28 AM Tuhljin>> Well, i am sure my DM will let me replace one feat, i have never used the craft wounderes items anyway. So if i take that feat, i will have no problems casting arcane spells in light amor?
It's not a feat - it's an alternate class feature. When you take a level of fighter, you can choose to gain the ability to cast arcane spells without penalty while in light armor instead of gaining proficiency with medium and heavy armors. You'd still get proficiency with light armor in either case. You have to have at least one rank of Knowledge (Arcana) in order to use this option though, if I recall correctly, but that's easy to do.

If your DM doesn't let you remake the character from scratch, don't fret over it too much. It's just a game, after all, and next time you'll have more experience and will be sure to plan your character out more carefully. It's always a good idea to know in advance what feats, skills, and classes, etc. you'll be taking in order to fulfill your higher-level goals.
TheGrimReeper
04-25-07, 01:42 AM Ok, now i get it. I guess i need to go out and buy the book:-) and talk tomy DM about it. But she is not that strickt.I know, but i have always played fighter or very close to fighter. So this sor building and wish to be DD, i really complicated for me. Beside, i might not have giving character building the attention it actually needs.

I did not see that. I was under the impresion that it aplied for all arcane spells. Well lessons learned.

i am sorry...what is a gish build?
Weiser_Cain
04-25-07, 02:53 AM A gish is a fighter / arcane spellcaster.
If you want to stick with DD you could try this.
Fighter 4, then Sorcerer 1, DD 10, then more fighter or a fighting prc.
Tytalus
04-25-07, 04:27 AM I am not sure my DM would make me remake my character in the middle of the campaign.

Fair enough. However, it's mostly a change in the mechanics, to make you actually up-to-par with other characters of your level. It shouldn't mean that you'll change your concept or the way you play your character.

Alternatively, create a new one (i.e., retire or die).

As i can calculate, i would at character lvl 20, hav a BaB +13, and then plus the stranght bonus i will get, would make a meele attack bonus of +19. Is that really that bad?

You'll have +12 BAB at level 20 (unless you use fractional BAB). That's very poor. Combat-oriented characters will want to aim for 16+ (4th iterative attack). To-hit is not the same as BAB, unfortunately. You might hit, but you won't be doing as many attacks per round as you could.

Note that an extra +4 to hit can directly translate into an extra +8 damage (assuming you have the Power Attack feat).

I done see my self as being a frontline character, but more as a between long ranged and frontliners, and stalker of pray around the group. Would that work?

That's a very poor choice. You don't have much to offer at range (poor BAB for archery, low-level spells only), and you don't even make use of the DD's considerable strength gain.

As a 'stalker', you likely want a more skillful character. you gain 2 skill points per level - that makes it problematic, to say the least. Your only option is using magic to hide yourself.

In terms of builds, these are much better:

Duskblade5/DD10/XXX5 (Probably the best fit for your concept)
Duskblade13/DD7 (Somewhat stronger because of the 13th level DB ability)
Hexblade5/DD10/XXX5 (Also works)
Barbarian1/Bard4/DD10/XXX5 (If you want to stick to core-only; 2nd level spells with minimal BAB loss)
Ranger4/Sorcerer1/DD10/XXX5 (also core, and more along the lines of a 'stalker')

Weiser_Cain's suggestion is also worth considering.

As for feats, you might want to consider the following:

Dragon Breath [Races of the Dragon]: use your breath weapon every 1D4 rounds. Not too strong, but flavorful (and rather fun)
Power Attack --> Leap Attack [Complete Adventurer]: make use of your high strength (use a 2-handed weapon, of course)
Improved Toughness [Complete Warrior] (+1 HP/level, much better than toughness)
Combat Brute [Complete Warrior], Shock Trooper [Complete Warrior]: may not be quite what you were looking for, but are standard suggestions for increasing melee damage
Fly-By Attack [Monster Manual] If you do stick with DD beyond level 9

Overall, the DD is a rather weak prestige class as is. You are usually much better off just taking the Half-Dragon template (even though you won't get wings). This is especially true if you actually want to play a spellcaster (note: not recommended with either DD or template, though). Of course, you loose out on the transformational flavor.
Captain_Kobold
04-25-07, 12:31 PM First question GrimReeper: Are you sure that you want to take levels in the Dragon Disciple class? As people have said: its not amazing for pure casters.

If what you want is a Dragon-themed sorceror, there are a couple of other ways of going about it:

If your DM will let you swap feats about, there are the Draconic Heritage feats from complete arcane. The first should be taken at 1st level, but your DM might allow you that. They give you several Dragon-themed powers connected with your spellcasting.
There are also substitution levels in Races of the Dragon I believe, if your group has that. Once more, it will require a retroactive change, so up to your DM.

Alternatively, you could see if you could develop the Draconic, or Half-dragon templates. You will take a hit in the spell casting ability still, but perhaps not as badly as the full DD progression would give you.
There are articles here about the half-dragon template put into level-progression:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a

Hope this has helped.

Cap'n Kobold.
TheGrimReeper
04-28-07, 04:30 AM Dragon Breath [Races of the Dragon]: use your breath weapon every 1D4 rounds. Not too strong, but flavorful (and rather fun)
Power Attack --> Leap Attack [Complete Adventurer]: make use of your high strength (use a 2-handed weapon, of course)
Improved Toughness [Complete Warrior] (+1 HP/level, much better than toughness)
Combat Brute [Complete Warrior], Shock Trooper [Complete Warrior]: may not be quite what you were looking for, but are standard suggestions for increasing melee damage
Fly-By Attack [Monster Manual] If you do stick with DD beyond level 9

Overall, the DD is a rather weak prestige class as is. You are usually much better off just taking the Half-Dragon template (even though you won't get wings). This is especially true if you actually want to play a spellcaster (note: not recommended with either DD or template, though). Of course, you loose out on the transformational flavor.

Thanks, I guess it it worth thinking about. Now i just have to find a good story, to make my DM comply;)

I was think about taking to two weapon fighting feat also and the ambie dex. Then when i get the enlagrement in DD, having two two-handed weapons.Like two great swords?

But it does not sound like the DD is anything worth playing. Maybe i should stay SOR and then take the half dragon template.....
I much appriciated all the helpi got here. I am glad i joined:P
Captain_Kobold
04-28-07, 08:55 AM You also might want to check that you are using the right version of DD. The 3.5 version does not increase your size.
The_Shaman
04-28-07, 01:13 PM Thanks, I guess it it worth thinking about. Now i just have to find a good story, to make my DM comply;)

I was think about taking to two weapon fighting feat also and the ambie dex. Then when i get the enlagrement in DD, having two two-handed weapons.Like two great swords?

But it does not sound like the DD is anything worth playing. Maybe i should stay SOR and then take the half dragon template.....
I much appriciated all the helpi got here. I am glad i joined:P

Are you planning a 3.0 edition game? There's no ambidextrous feat in 3.5. Also, now a medium greatsword is a medium greatsword - if you want to dual-wield it, you might want to get large bastard swords instead (I think) or get the monkey grip feat (often considered a bad idea).

Dragon disciples are more geared towards warriors. Sorcerers have better things to get, instead. If you want to cast in armor, check out the Spellsword from Complete Warrior. 1 levels (requires proficiency with heavy armors, which tends to come with a fighter or paladin level) gives you -10% spell failure in every armor - in other words, a mithral shirt is a-okay for you. There's also an enhancement for armors, called "twilight" (first appeared in the Exalted deeds book, later in others) which decreases the spell failure of an armor/shield with 10%. In other words, EVERY sorcerer can wear a twilight mithral shirt with NO ill effects whatsoever (unless someone dispels the enhancement, at least).

So if you want to be a dragon disciple, consider boosting your melee potential. If you want to be a draconic mage extraordinaire, see if anyone in your group has Races of the Dragon - there's an interesting prestige class for sorcerers there. Alternatively, ask the DM to give the DD a casting progression every 2nd level instead of that stuff they get now (hey, works for the Green Star Adept, they even keep their spell power progression). It shouldn't break the game.

As a lvl 3 sorcerer spell... I'm particular to the haste/slow line, but maybe it's just me ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheGrimReeper 04-24-07, 07:32 PM	Hi everybody. Rookie here, and i really need help to find the path. When we started this adventure, i wanted to be a Dragon Disciple. And for that i needed an arcane speel caster, like a sourcere. I did not have acces to the books with duskblade or hexblade. So i took a sourcere and i am now just leveling up to 6 lvl I am having probelms choosing my feat and my 3 lvl spell. Any sourgestion? I also have a problem with when to cross over to the DD. I am thinking about taking one lvl of war mage to get the feat of casting spells in armor, and then a fighter lvl. So i will end up sor8/fighter1/warmage1/DD10 Is it totally wrong? My stats and so on are str 13, dex 17, con 16, int 16, wis 15, cha 18 HP 40 Feats:toughness, dodge:rolleyes: craft wounderess items:rolleyes: ( as i said, i am really a rookie ) spells: detect magic, read m, ray of frost, mage hand, daze, light magic missile, shield, mage amor, identify Ice knife, bull strenghts so guys, i really need help. The others in the party have played for many years, but dont really have time to help me research, and after many hours here, i can see i am in trouble:confused:
Tuhljin 04-24-07, 09:08 PM	It's really rather a waste to take that level of warmage if you can avoid it. Complete Mage has alternate class features that, if your DM allows it, let you replace one class feature with another. One, for fighters, lets you cast spells in light armor just as that level of warmage you were looking at would. If you're taking a level of fighter anyway, combine the two functions together with this alternate class feature. It's called Armored Mage, and that's on pg 32 of Complete Mage.
Tytalus 04-24-07, 09:46 PM	This question is better suited for the Character Optimization board. DD is not a good PrC for a caster as it does progress spellcasting. It's a PrC that best works for melee fighters, but your poor BAB and low hit points are going to make that difficult as well. As such, you are bound to have a weak character. Similarly, your feat choices are quite poor. I would ask the DM to be allowed to remake the character. Given that you are a rookie and made some rather painful mistakes, that should be ok.
TheGrimReeper 04-25-07, 12:59 AM	Tuhljin>> Well, i am sure my DM will let me replace one feat, i have never used the craft wounderes items anyway. So if i take that feat, i will have no problems casting arcane spells in light amor? Tytalus>>Thanks, i thought it would be the right place to write. I have seen some threads here regarding the same. I am not sure my DM would make me remake my character in the middle of the campaign. As i can calculate, i would at character lvl 20, hav a BaB +13, and then plus the stranght bonus i will get, would make a meele attack bonus of +19. Is that really that bad? I done see my self as being a frontline character, but more as a between long ranged and frontliners, and stalker of pray around the group. Would that work?
Gamili 04-25-07, 01:03 AM	Is this an attempt at a Gish build? I can't make sense of it. I'm calling unsalvagable on this one. Plead to your DM to roll up a new character.
Scribbler 04-25-07, 01:05 AM	Take another look at the warmage's armored ability: "Nor does this ability apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class." So that would only help your few warmage spells. It would actually be completely useless for your sorceror casting. As was said above, the fighter alternate class ability does the same thing, but it would actually work for you.
Tuhljin 04-25-07, 01:28 AM	Tuhljin>> Well, i am sure my DM will let me replace one feat, i have never used the craft wounderes items anyway. So if i take that feat, i will have no problems casting arcane spells in light amor? It's not a feat - it's an alternate class feature. When you take a level of fighter, you can choose to gain the ability to cast arcane spells without penalty while in light armor instead of gaining proficiency with medium and heavy armors. You'd still get proficiency with light armor in either case. You have to have at least one rank of Knowledge (Arcana) in order to use this option though, if I recall correctly, but that's easy to do. If your DM doesn't let you remake the character from scratch, don't fret over it too much. It's just a game, after all, and next time you'll have more experience and will be sure to plan your character out more carefully. It's always a good idea to know in advance what feats, skills, and classes, etc. you'll be taking in order to fulfill your higher-level goals.
TheGrimReeper 04-25-07, 01:42 AM	Ok, now i get it. I guess i need to go out and buy the book:-) and talk tomy DM about it. But she is not that strickt.I know, but i have always played fighter or very close to fighter. So this sor building and wish to be DD, i really complicated for me. Beside, i might not have giving character building the attention it actually needs. I did not see that. I was under the impresion that it aplied for all arcane spells. Well lessons learned. i am sorry...what is a gish build?
Weiser_Cain 04-25-07, 02:53 AM	A gish is a fighter / arcane spellcaster. If you want to stick with DD you could try this. Fighter 4, then Sorcerer 1, DD 10, then more fighter or a fighting prc.
Tytalus 04-25-07, 04:27 AM	I am not sure my DM would make me remake my character in the middle of the campaign. Fair enough. However, it's mostly a change in the mechanics, to make you actually up-to-par with other characters of your level. It shouldn't mean that you'll change your concept or the way you play your character. Alternatively, create a new one (i.e., retire or die). As i can calculate, i would at character lvl 20, hav a BaB +13, and then plus the stranght bonus i will get, would make a meele attack bonus of +19. Is that really that bad? You'll have +12 BAB at level 20 (unless you use fractional BAB). That's very poor. Combat-oriented characters will want to aim for 16+ (4th iterative attack). To-hit is not the same as BAB, unfortunately. You might hit, but you won't be doing as many attacks per round as you could. Note that an extra +4 to hit can directly translate into an extra +8 damage (assuming you have the Power Attack feat). I done see my self as being a frontline character, but more as a between long ranged and frontliners, and stalker of pray around the group. Would that work? That's a very poor choice. You don't have much to offer at range (poor BAB for archery, low-level spells only), and you don't even make use of the DD's considerable strength gain. As a 'stalker', you likely want a more skillful character. you gain 2 skill points per level - that makes it problematic, to say the least. Your only option is using magic to hide yourself. In terms of builds, these are much better: Duskblade5/DD10/XXX5 (Probably the best fit for your concept) Duskblade13/DD7 (Somewhat stronger because of the 13th level DB ability) Hexblade5/DD10/XXX5 (Also works) Barbarian1/Bard4/DD10/XXX5 (If you want to stick to core-only; 2nd level spells with minimal BAB loss) Ranger4/Sorcerer1/DD10/XXX5 (also core, and more along the lines of a 'stalker') Weiser_Cain's suggestion is also worth considering. As for feats, you might want to consider the following: Dragon Breath [Races of the Dragon]: use your breath weapon every 1D4 rounds. Not too strong, but flavorful (and rather fun) Power Attack --> Leap Attack [Complete Adventurer]: make use of your high strength (use a 2-handed weapon, of course) Improved Toughness [Complete Warrior] (+1 HP/level, much better than toughness) Combat Brute [Complete Warrior], Shock Trooper [Complete Warrior]: may not be quite what you were looking for, but are standard suggestions for increasing melee damage Fly-By Attack [Monster Manual] If you do stick with DD beyond level 9 Overall, the DD is a rather weak prestige class as is. You are usually much better off just taking the Half-Dragon template (even though you won't get wings). This is especially true if you actually want to play a spellcaster (note: not recommended with either DD or template, though). Of course, you loose out on the transformational flavor.
Captain_Kobold 04-25-07, 12:31 PM	First question GrimReeper: Are you sure that you want to take levels in the Dragon Disciple class? As people have said: its not amazing for pure casters. If what you want is a Dragon-themed sorceror, there are a couple of other ways of going about it: If your DM will let you swap feats about, there are the Draconic Heritage feats from complete arcane. The first should be taken at 1st level, but your DM might allow you that. They give you several Dragon-themed powers connected with your spellcasting. There are also substitution levels in Races of the Dragon I believe, if your group has that. Once more, it will require a retroactive change, so up to your DM. Alternatively, you could see if you could develop the Draconic, or Half-dragon templates. You will take a hit in the spell casting ability still, but perhaps not as badly as the full DD progression would give you. There are articles here about the half-dragon template put into level-progression: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a Hope this has helped. Cap'n Kobold.
TheGrimReeper 04-28-07, 04:30 AM	Dragon Breath [Races of the Dragon]: use your breath weapon every 1D4 rounds. Not too strong, but flavorful (and rather fun) Power Attack --> Leap Attack [Complete Adventurer]: make use of your high strength (use a 2-handed weapon, of course) Improved Toughness [Complete Warrior] (+1 HP/level, much better than toughness) Combat Brute [Complete Warrior], Shock Trooper [Complete Warrior]: may not be quite what you were looking for, but are standard suggestions for increasing melee damage Fly-By Attack [Monster Manual] If you do stick with DD beyond level 9 Overall, the DD is a rather weak prestige class as is. You are usually much better off just taking the Half-Dragon template (even though you won't get wings). This is especially true if you actually want to play a spellcaster (note: not recommended with either DD or template, though). Of course, you loose out on the transformational flavor. Thanks, I guess it it worth thinking about. Now i just have to find a good story, to make my DM comply;) I was think about taking to two weapon fighting feat also and the ambie dex. Then when i get the enlagrement in DD, having two two-handed weapons.Like two great swords? But it does not sound like the DD is anything worth playing. Maybe i should stay SOR and then take the half dragon template..... I much appriciated all the helpi got here. I am glad i joined:P
Captain_Kobold 04-28-07, 08:55 AM	You also might want to check that you are using the right version of DD. The 3.5 version does not increase your size.
The_Shaman 04-28-07, 01:13 PM	Thanks, I guess it it worth thinking about. Now i just have to find a good story, to make my DM comply;) I was think about taking to two weapon fighting feat also and the ambie dex. Then when i get the enlagrement in DD, having two two-handed weapons.Like two great swords? But it does not sound like the DD is anything worth playing. Maybe i should stay SOR and then take the half dragon template..... I much appriciated all the helpi got here. I am glad i joined:P Are you planning a 3.0 edition game? There's no ambidextrous feat in 3.5. Also, now a medium greatsword is a medium greatsword - if you want to dual-wield it, you might want to get large bastard swords instead (I think) or get the monkey grip feat (often considered a bad idea). Dragon disciples are more geared towards warriors. Sorcerers have better things to get, instead. If you want to cast in armor, check out the Spellsword from Complete Warrior. 1 levels (requires proficiency with heavy armors, which tends to come with a fighter or paladin level) gives you -10% spell failure in every armor - in other words, a mithral shirt is a-okay for you. There's also an enhancement for armors, called "twilight" (first appeared in the Exalted deeds book, later in others) which decreases the spell failure of an armor/shield with 10%. In other words, EVERY sorcerer can wear a twilight mithral shirt with NO ill effects whatsoever (unless someone dispels the enhancement, at least). So if you want to be a dragon disciple, consider boosting your melee potential. If you want to be a draconic mage extraordinaire, see if anyone in your group has Races of the Dragon - there's an interesting prestige class for sorcerers there. Alternatively, ask the DM to give the DD a casting progression every 2nd level instead of that stuff they get now (hey, works for the Green Star Adept, they even keep their spell power progression). It shouldn't break the game. As a lvl 3 sorcerer spell... I'm particular to the haste/slow line, but maybe it's just me ;)