Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ciaran 03-04-08, 06:10 PM	Still no name yet. I'm just too picky. :D I wanted to create a class for martial characters who want to expand their focus on the physical side of combat to include the cerebral side as well, as it pertains to combat and mastery of a weapon. To diversify the character, I have included good will saves and skills reliant upon Int, Wis & Cha. I believe that the Combat Expertise feat prereq, because of the Int requirement, will allow for quite a few skill points. The addition of Tumble and Balance help diversify and in tight situations. It would require a large investment for them to equal a Rogue or Monk. Concentration powers a specific class ability and might help the player qualify for other things. Any class could qualify for this, but this was made partially in response to the many complaints about the Fighter class. I've made several revisions according to forum members suggestions. Suggestions on wording that is more clear is appreciated, as are balance concerns. *************** Hit Die: d8. Requirements To qualify to become a XXX, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Base Attack Bonus: +5 Feats: Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus. Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons. Class Skills Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Weapon Drill) (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Table: The XXX Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +0 +0 +2 Chosen Weapon +1, Practiced Fighter 2nd +2 +0 +0 +3 Martial Aspect 3rd +3 +1 +1 +3 Greater Weapon Focus, Chosen Weapon +2 4th +4 +1 +1 +4 Martial Aspect 5th +5 +1 +1 +4 Martial Aspect, Chosen Weapon +3 Class Features All of the following are Class Features of the XXX prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: XXX gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. Chosen Weapon (Ex): Upon taking a level in this class the character must choose one weapon (such as warhammer, glaive or longbow) he has taken Weapon Focus for to be his Chosen Weapon. This is the weapon the he will gain benfits with as he advances in level. At 1st level this ability grants a +1 bonus to opposed d20 checks when resolving g a Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Overrun, Sunder or Trip; when attempting to demoralise an opponent; and weapon damage. The action must still be legal to do so and attacks of opportunity may still be provoked. This bonus increases to +2 at 3rd level and +3 at 5th level. These bonuses only apply when using the Chosen Weapon. Practiced Fighter (Ex): You qualify for feats that usually require a minimum number of fighter levels (such as weapon specialization) as if you had a fighter level equal to your class level. These effective fighter levels stack with any actual fighter levels you have. Greater Weapon Focus (Ex): The XXX continues to study the techniques of his weapon and at 3rd level gains this as a bonus feat for his Chosen Weapon. Martial Aspects (Ex): At 2nd, 4th and 5th levels, the XXX may choose one of the following abilities: -Adrenaline Surge: As a standard action, the XXX can force himself to ignore wounds and push on for a time by making a Concentration check DC 15 the character gains a number of hit points equal to his (class levels X Con bonus). For every five points of the check beyond 15 three additional hp are granted. If this action is attempted while disabled it is a DC 20 and the he retains his disabled status until healed (see Disabled). Regardless, the hit points are lost after one minute and the check can only be attempted once per day. -Combat Alertness (Ex): At 2nd level the character becomes more aware of his surroundings while holding his Chosen Weapon, gaining a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks to resist a Feint and a +1 dodge bones to AC. Additionally, flanking opponents gain no bonus to their attack when flanking the XXX. These abilities only works while he weilds his Chosen Weapon. -Combat Swiftness (Ex): At 4th level the XXX increases his speed with which he can perform certain actions in combat. First, he may draw his Chosen Weapon as a swift action. The Chosen Weapon can be sheathed as a move action or on the move, with neither provoking attacks of opportunity. Lastly, if a free five foot step is taken prior to beginning a full attack, then a second free five foot step may be taken at its completion. -Deceptive Combatant (Ex): The XXX is skilled at deceiving his enemies. As a swift action performed during a full-round charge he make a Bluff check opposed by the target's Sense Motive to lose the AC penalty associated with charging. Second, the character may perform Feints as a move action and the Improved Feint feat reduces this to a Swift Action. Finally, the XXX gains a precision damage bonus, equal to his class level, any time an enemy loses its Dex bonus or he is flanking it. This ability is subject to all the same conditions as the Rogue's Sneak Attack. These bonuses only apply when uing his Chosen Weapon. -Expert Manuevers (Ex): The XXX is adept at successfully performing special actions in combat. When attempting a Bull Rush, Disarm, Overrun, Sunder or Trip the character gains a bonus to AC to avoid the attack of opportunity equal to 4 + Int bonus. These bonuses only apply when uing his Chosen Weapon. ***This needs something else too.*** -Know Your Enemy (Ex): As a standard action the XXX may examine a single oppponent within 30 feet for weaknesses. If a Knowledge check appropriate for the creature's type can be made (DC = 10 + creature's HD) then he receives a damage bonus equal to his class level on all melee and ranged attacks (within 30 ft), as well as Bluff and Intimidate checks, made against this single enemy. Favored Enemy bonuses apply to the Knowledge check and the DM may apply circumstance modifiers the to the DC. Only one enemy at a time may be selected in this way. Retries on the same enemy may not be attempted. -Weapon Tricks (Ex): The character learns a number of trick that be performed with his Chosen Weapon, some by succeeding on Weapon Drill skill checks. These skill checks allow Base Attack Bonus to be included. First, as a swift action, he may flip his Chosen Weapon up with his foot to his hand (DC = 15 + 2 per enemy beyond the first). If this check fails it may be picked up as a move action. Secondly, when disarming an enemy's weapon with his Chosen Weapon, it may be flipped to another square of the XXX's choosing (DC = 15 + 5 per five feet). On a failed check it lands at the feet of the enemy. 5 Ranks in Perform Weapon drill grants a +2 bonus on attempts to Feint or demoralise an enemy with his Chosen Weapon. ***Any other ideas for tricks?***
teshen 03-06-08, 03:02 PM	Lv Base Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +0 +0 +2 Chosen Weapon +1/+2, Practiced Fighter 2 +2 +0 +0 +3 Combat Alertness 3 +3 +1 +1 +3 Greater Weapon Focus, Chosen Weapon +2/+4 4 +4 +1 +1 +4 Combat Swiftness 5 +5 +1 +1 +4 Weapon Specialization, Chosen Weapon +3/+6 Ok. Now that's out of the way... . . . I wanted to create a class for martial characters who want to expand their focus on the physical side of combat to include the cerebral side as well, as it pertains to combat and mastery of a weapon. To diversify the character, I have included good will saves and skills reliant upon Int, Wis & Cha. I believe that the Combat Expertise feat prereq, because of the Int requirement, will allow for quite a few skill points. Any class could qualify for this, but this was made partially in response to the many complaints about the Fighter class. . . Cool. If you want to make fighters use their brains, give abilities that operate off a mental stat. Think canny defense or any of the warblade's and factorum's intelligence based bonuses. There is also the combat meditation feats from the PHBII which can be used for some more inspiration. Base Attack Bonus: +5 Feats: Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus. Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons.Yeah, that's easy and generic. Anybody can get in. You might want to make it even more generic yet harder to meet... combat expertise emphasises intelligence. What if someone wanted a charisma based fighter or a wisdom based one? You could have three feat necessary and then have mulitple entry points... such as Feats: Weapon focus or Exotic weapon proficiency, Combat Expertise or Combat meditation, and feat 1 or feat 2... Class Skills Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Weapon Drill) (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.I recommend adding tumble and balance to this list, but that could be because I feel that balance is important to fighting. You might also consider making it 4 + int mod. Chosen Weapon (Ex): Upon taking a level in this class the character must choose one weapon (such as warhammer, glaive or longbow) he has taken Weapon Focus for to be his Chosen Weapon. This is the weapon the he will gain benfits with as he advances in level. At 1st level this ability grants a +1 bonus to d20 checks when initiating a Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Overrun, Sunder or Trip, as well as when attempting to demoralise an opponent. The action must still be legal to do so and attacks of opportunity may still be provoked. This bonus increases to +2 at 3rd level and +3 at 5th level. The character is also granted a +2 bonus to d20 checks to resist Disarm and Sunder attempts to his Chosen Weapon. This bonus increases to +4 at 3rd level and +6 at 5th level. These bonuses only apply when using the Chosen Weapon.It's kind of like several feats rolled into one and scaling. Practiced Fighter (Ex): XXX levels count as Fighter levels for purposes of qualifying for feats.I recommend taking a look at warblade and borrowing the wording to sound cleaner. Combat Alertness[/B] (Ex): At 2nd level the character becomes more aware of his surroundings while holding his Chosen Weapon. First, he gains a +2 bonus to opposed rolls (such as Listen and Spot) when deciding who can act in a surprise round. Secondly, he gains a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks to resist a Feint. And finally, flanking opponents gain no bonus to their attack when flanking the XXX. These abilities only works while he weilds his Chosen Weapon.Why would having a sword in hand make me hear better? I just can't make this make sense to me. I understand linking it to your chosen weapon mechanically, but thematically it just doesn't make. Combat Swiftness (Ex): At 4th level the XXX increases his speed with which he can perform certain actions in combat. First he gains a +2 bonus to initiative rolls when already weilding his Chosen Weapon. Second, as a swift action the XXX may draw his Chosen Weapon or pick it up without provoking attacks of opportunity. The Quick Draw feat allows these to be performed as Immediate Actions. Lastly the Chosen Weapon can be sheathed as a move action or on the move without provoking attacks of opportunity. Consider instead of the greater weapon focus and the weapon specialization, roll those abilities into the focus feat and make that a first level ability. Improved focus Any weapon for which you have the weapon focus feat, now grants additional benefits. If your base attack is +6 or greater, you gain an extra +2 to damage when weilding a for which you have the weapon focus feat. If your base attack is +9 or greater, you gain an extra +1 to hit an opponent. This benefit stacks with the +1 that weapon focus grants. If your base attack is +12 or greater, you gain an extra +2 to damage that stacks with the previous +2 (for a total of +4) damage with your focused weapon. Then you'll have room for other stuff...
StevenO 03-06-08, 06:16 PM	If you make changes please note them. It make things easier to follow. Chosen Weapon: I like the idea of a bonus for special maneuvers but for simplicity sake just use the same +1 for both things. Practice Fighter: I could take it or leave it. I'd probably leave it or only have it count as half level rounded up; this keeps other classes from dipping into this to gain weapon specialization. Combat Alertness: I dislike this one. Perhaps it should be a conditional Uncanny Dodge or some other minor variation. Greater Weapon Focus: Don't give a free feat if they already have this for their weapon. If I remember correctly one needs to be Fighter 12 to get this feat to begin with so they probably shouldn't have it anyway at this time. Combat Swiftness: Perhaps too much. I'd probably build this on the Alertness ability. I like this as Quickdraw for the chosen weapon, sheath without AoO, and possibly pick up a weapon using a Weapon Drill check Weapon Specialization: Fine with the mechanics of the class. Now I have refrained from commenting on the prereqs and fluff. From what I see this class is all about specializing even further in one weapon and does nothing to further the idea of a "mental" based figher. To me the "mental" figher is already covered by the Swashbuckler (CWar), Dualist, and other classes.
ciaran 03-06-08, 11:44 PM	Thank you both. I was beginning to think this would just float off first page. Could somebody direct me to the code for formatting this correctly? My html <DIV> code didn't work. Skills: I considered Tuble and 4 skill points but didn't want to jump too far. Does anyone second the idea? Chosen Weapon has been simplified and expanded (slightly) to include bonus damage. The overall effect, I feel, wouldn't make a one level dip outweight the prereqs. Practiced Fighter: I don't think a one level dip would grant any benefit. Only 4 levels would allow a new feat. Teshen, I don't have the book for the wording you suggest. Could you write it for me? Combat Alertness: Maybe a new name is in order. I removed the surprise round bones and added a dodge bonus. Thoughts? Gr. Weapon Focus: The requirement, aside from fighter levels, is a base attack of +8, so its right on schedule. Combat swiftness: I dropped the Quick Draw boost. What would you suggest for the weapon drill part? Keep in mind, even at base attack +8 they won't have to many ranks by this point. What are your thoughts? I've got one or two... I didn't think the new Chosen weapon damage bonus would make weapon spec or gr w.s. neccessary. However, they could still be selected at the character's option and cost. What's a good last-level-of-class topper? I think I addressed everything you two posted but I'll look it over more. And StevenO I kind of see what you mean about the "intelligent" fighter aspect not being there. I hoped that would be granted through Int, Wis, Cha class skills and the Will save, but I'll think about it more. I'll start working on the flavor text too.
runestar 03-07-08, 12:49 AM	IM), the problem with giving it an expanded skill list is that the original fighter class does not get such a benefit. Thus, when it enters said prc (say at 6th lv soonest), you have to train those skills up from scratch. Which may be more trouble than it is worth (especially since you don't get 4xskill points to play around with). The fighter would likely just continue maxing out his core fighter skills. Any leftovers would be sunk into 1 key skill (to max it out ASAP). Concentration remains useless for most part unless you are a martial adept (and no self-respecting warblade would ever consider taking it). The rest are decent, but again, the problem comes with trying to boost them to a decent rank to actually make them useful. Unless I am a human fighter with 14int, took the able learner feat at 1st lv and bought key skills like spot and listen... To be honest, your prc seems very weak. The only key reason for me to take it would likely be for the good will saves (and unless the capstone ability is very good, I would probably skip it as well, since the 5th lv does not give any saves). Not really any better than straight fighter. Combat swiftness does not seem any better than quickdraw (you can pick up disarmed weapons as a swift action, but that also means you are limited to 1/round, meaning you cannot quickdraw multiple weapons in the same round). I would at least improve it to an immediate action, so you can retrieve your weapon in the same round as a foe disarms it.
ciaran 03-07-08, 08:34 AM	Thus, when it enters said prc (say at 6th lv soonest), you have to train those skills up from scratch. Which may be more trouble than it is worth (especially since you don't get 4xskill points to play around with). So its max ranks or nothing? I think they're more benefit than that. The average skill DC in games I play does not rise past 15. Some stay, others go up as the PCs get more powerful. I wasn't trying to make this guy as good at certain things as, say, a rogue. Should I take this as a vote towards 4 skill points? I'll come up with something at work today to beef up the class abilities.
runestar 03-07-08, 09:15 AM	So its max ranks or nothing? I think they're more benefit than that. The average skill DC in games I play does not rise past 15. Some stay, others go up as the PCs get more powerful. I wasn't trying to make this guy as good at certain things as, say, a rogue. Well, I really cannot complain if it is good enough for your game. Though I feel that while the fighter need not be as good at listen/spot as a rogue, the disparity should not be that great either. For example, at 7th lv, a rogue would have an average spot check of +10 (base 10, wis+0, assuming no other modifiers because a fighter can theoretically access them as well). To sufficiently challenge him, your challenge ought to have a dc of at least 20 (not factoring in penalties like spot distances). If the fighter has too few ranks, he will find it very hard to succeed at anything worth succeeding at (which defeats the purpose of investing those ranks) Any check he can make, the rogue auto-succeeds, making said check largely moot save for a few very specific scenarios. Should I take this as a vote towards 4 skill points? At least. Anything less would be the most grevious of sins...;)
ciaran 03-07-08, 07:12 PM	Well, I managed to dream up some new abilities today at work without killing anybody (I'm an electrician). This is my first submission on the forums and it has never really struck me before how hard it is too field so many suggestions, despite how many suggestions I have give to others. It can irk the pride at times, but the class is getting better as a result. Concerns? Criticisms? And Runestar, I reread my post - I meant that many of the DCs for general functions stay in the 15 range. Opposed checks can be all over the board, so I understand your point there. My point was that sometimes the DM asks for a check against a "thing", like Spotting a key in the trash. Your post and StevenO's helped me think up some of the new stuff.
ciaran 03-09-08, 01:30 PM	Wish I knew before how easy it was to drop that table in. :rolleyes:
teshen 03-12-08, 03:34 AM	. . . Skills: I considered Tuble and 4 skill points but didn't want to jump too far. Does anyone second the idea? . . . Well, consider what tumble and balance do. I've bolded the parts that I think would be useful to a fighter type character. Balance (Dex; Armor Check Penalty) Check You can walk on a precarious surface. A successful check lets you move at half your speed along the surface for 1 round. A failure by 4 or less means you can’t move for 1 round. A failure by 5 or more means you fall. The difficulty varies with the surface, as follows: Being Attacked while Balancing You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing. Accelerated Movement You can try to walk across a precarious surface more quickly than normal. If you accept a -5 penalty, you can move your full speed as a move action. (Moving twice your speed in a round requires two Balance checks, one for each move action used.) You may also accept this penalty in order to charge across a precarious surface; charging requires one Balance check for each multiple of your speed (or fraction thereof) that you charge. Tumble (Dex; Trained Only; Armor Check Penalty) You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot. Check You can land softly when you fall or tumble past opponents. You can also tumble to entertain an audience (as though using the Perform skill). The DCs for various tasks involving the Tumble skill are given on the table below. DC 15 Treat a fall as if it were 10 feet shorter than it really is when determining damage. DC 15 Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC. DC 25 Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy. Check separately for each opponent. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC. . . . If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC. If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC when executing the total defense standard action instead of the usual +4 dodge bonus to AC. . . . Practiced Fighter: I don't think a one level dip would grant any benefit. Only 4 levels would allow a new feat. Teshen, I don't have the book for the wording you suggest. Could you write it for me? . . . After looking at the entry in Tome of Battle, it may not be the way to go... You qualify for feats that usually require a minimum number of fighter levels (such as weapon specialization) as if you had a fighter level equal to your xxx level -2. These effective fighter levels stack with any actual fighter levels you have. The problem with this would be if a barbarian or a ranger came into this prc, if levels in this prc counted as fighter and they had no fighter levels, they'd still be stuck at weapon specialization. It would need a little reworking for a prc instead of a base class. A capstone would also be nice... but I can't think of any suggestions for one at the moment.
ciaran 03-12-08, 06:40 PM	Tumble/Balance is in. The point of the class was to diversify the Fighter class. If someone wants to spend most of their skill points on one skill to get as good as a Rogue, well that is their right. Some of the new class abilities require dumping alot of points in anyway, so it fits that theme. Any suggestions on the new class abilities? Too much? If this allows a Ranger or Barbarian the right to qualify for Weapon Spec then thats fine. Its one feat they never would have had anyway, and it helps the Fighter if he's travelling that tree. Is a free Skill Focus at level one too much? And do I need another last level topper on top of the two already listed?