Master of Many Forms with Spellcasting Progression? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Master of Many Forms with Spellcasting Progression? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BrutishCelt
07-12-07, 04:30 AM I'm sure that this issue has been addressed somewhere before, but I lack the determination to hunt through a mess of threads to find it.

Needless to say, I'm a huge druid fan, and I'm gearing up to play in a new Forgotten Realms campaign [I think in Rashemen]. Sor far, I've just got a druid with one level of beastmaster planned, but I would really like to focus on wildshape and retain at least half spell progression. By the by, I will be taking Dragon Wild Shape if MoMF doesn't work out.

What I'd like to know is if anyone has seen a good un-nerfing of the Master of Many Forms PrC, or a variant PrC that increases wildshape options while providing some spell progression.

If all else fails, I may just add a "+1 level of spellcasting at each even numbered level" line to the MoMF and see if my DM will accept it. I mean, hell. If Master Transmogrifist can give 6 levels of spellcasting over its progression, 5 for the MoMF isn't unfair, is it?

Anyway, any help would be most appreciated.
Manyfist
07-12-07, 04:48 AM I'm sure that this issue has been addressed somewhere before, but I lack the determination to hunt through a mess of threads to find it.

Needless to say, I'm a huge druid fan, and I'm gearing up to play in a new Forgotten Realms campaign [I think in Rashemen]. Sor far, I've just got a druid with one level of beastmaster planned, but I would really like to focus on wildshape and retain at least half spell progression. By the by, I will be taking Dragon Wild Shape if MoMF doesn't work out.

What I'd like to know is if anyone has seen a good un-nerfing of the Master of Many Forms PrC, or a variant PrC that increases wildshape options while providing some spell progression.

If all else fails, I may just add a "+1 level of spellcasting at each even numbered level" line to the MoMF and see if my DM will accept it. I mean, hell. If Master Transmogrifist can give 6 levels of spellcasting over its progression, 5 for the MoMF isn't unfair, is it?

Anyway, any help would be most appreciated.

I would do it:

1st:no
2nd:no
3rd:yes
4th:no
5th:no
6th:yes
7th:no
8th:no
9:yes
10: no

That way you'll have a little more spell progression. However you still are giving up spell progression a lot for ability to wildshape into giants...etc.
JellyPooga
07-12-07, 10:00 AM ...What I'd like to know is if anyone has seen a good un-nerfing of the Master of Many Forms PrC...

MoMF needs un-nerfing??? Oh....I always thought it was one of the better balanced classes around - trade spellcasting for WildShape+...sounds like a good deal to me.

If you want more Wild Shape options and Spellcasting, the Natures Warrior PrC (Complete Warrior) gives you some extra options and half spellcasting progression, but it's only 5 levels long (you could always ask your DM if you could expand it to 10 levels though...shouldn't be too hard). War Shaper gives you a few extra abilities, but doesn't advance Spellcasting, so I suppose that's out.

Other than that, your looking at PrC's that advance Wild Shape, but don't actually give extra options (like Daggerspell Shaper or Arcane Heirophant).

About the only advice I could give would be to take your Druid/Beastmaster and simply alternate MoMF with Druid levels. E.g.

1: Druid
2: Druid
3: Druid
4: Druid
5: Druid
6: Beastmaster
7: MoMF
8:MoMF
9: MoMF
10: Druid
11: MoMF
12: Druid
13: MoMF
14: MoMF
15: MoMF
16: Druid
17: MoMF
18: Druid
19: MoMF
20: MoMF

That'll get you full Wild Shape progression (if some overlap) and throw in some spellcasting too (admittedly not much though).
Spikes01k
07-12-07, 10:17 AM Personally I would go Druid 5, MMoF 10, Warshaper 5. But thats me. I would start to mix in warshaper with MMoF once the forms got some good bonuses. But that is just me.
Stumpy_the_Tall
07-12-07, 11:11 AM I have to agree with spikes. My shaper will be druid5/momf10/warshaper5 as well when he is done. Druid5/momf7 then start switching in shaper. At momf7 you get the ability to take the EX abilities of the thing to shape into.

I guess my point is, what do you want those extra spells for? Damage? (Aha found it.

- magma hurler(MH, cf): This form has a great ranged attack that does a hell of damage. The most funny thing is that it is rated as CR 3. I think most 3rd-level characters would have no chance against a monster that deals 3d10+8+1d6 fire per hit... Medium elemental, 4 HD, 26str, 13dex, 24con, +4 natural armor, magma rock (move action, 3d10+8+1d6 fire), at level 7: DV 60 ft., immunity to cold, fire vulnerability)

Healing? Exhaulted wild shape let's you shift into a unicorn. 4 free heals once a day plus a poison cure ability.

Grapling? Lots of forms for this.

General combat? War troll. Is there anything I need to say about this one?

General outside combat stuff like moving objects just shape into an elephant to haul around a ton of stuff and shape into something else. Your stuff will meld into you and you're free to move on (requires DM approval).

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=639448 this is the link to the momf bible and has anything you would ever need to play the class well. With these options there is almost nothing you cannot do equal or better then spells can.
qwerty1
07-12-07, 11:18 AM How about being a "Shifter" Lycanthropic type creature. I think it's LA+1 or +0
BrutishCelt
07-13-07, 01:57 AM Thanks for the suggestions.

I can't use the shifter race, though, because it's a Forgotten Realms campaign.

My main goal for wanting to keep some spell progression is really for combat buffs, but honestly, on second blush, selecting the right form really is the combat buff, isn't it?

I'm gonna hafta check out the warshaper, though, and see what it's all about.

Again, thanks for the help folks. Time for me to go make the new players gape when they see what judicious use of the rules can accomplish.
TheCobra
07-13-07, 02:06 AM You could always enter Master of Many Forms with a wild shaping ranger. Of course, that'd be even less spellcasting. The opposite of what you want, I guess.
Stumpy_the_Tall
07-13-07, 07:57 AM If you just want to keep the buffs, what about maybe buying wands and keeping them on your person before shifting?

One of the best things about a momf is that you are in a sence, not reliant on gear. You don't need +5 full plate of the gods when you can shift and get a +14 to AC with a forms natural armor. You also don't need a +5 keen vorpral everything bane great sword when you can turn into a tarresque (ok wait. you can't do that but there are forms that come close!)

Dump a chunk of change on some good things like robes and enhance those with the necessities and then you're free to buy those buff wands and potions to your heart's content.

I'm not trying to push my playstyle on you or anything. I'm also not saying that a momf is better then a full druid with spells. I'm just trying to defend that the class is good as is and very powerful in the right hands. Play it to well and you get it banned from games (Yes, I play under a few DMs and one will not let me be a momf ever again after I played one :cool: ).

Hope that helped a little.

Edit: Just for fun, since it was brought up, let's see how many buffs are in one form! We'll take the forest troll. You can acess it at momf2.

- forest troll (MM3; af): Probably the medium-sized form with the highest constitution, this form is ideally suited to be worn beneath a human disguise in everyday situations. Natural armor and claws with quite deadly poison are an additional plus. 5 HD, medium giant, 17str, 16dex, 21con, poison; at level 7: DV 90ft, fast healing 5, LLV scent, +2 hide

Assuming even 16s in all your stats (little generous but not unheard of) there is a boar's endurance (Is that the name of the +con buff? I can't think at work seeing that it's against company policy or something), poison, and at momf7 when you can get the EX qualities greater vigor, scent, and to a lesser extent blindsence (Using this because I don't know of a buff right off the top of my head that does Dark vision and Low light vision). So for one shift you get 5 buffs!

Ok done being goofy. Sorry about the minor derailing.
The_Shaman
07-13-07, 08:10 AM I think it could take 3 to 4 levels of casting before being broken, but you might have to settle for less wildshapes per day, at least. BTW, by RaW you can not change forms in the same wildshape, right?

I think Warshaper takes care of that, but we are talking MoMF here.
Saryn
07-13-07, 04:25 PM I have similar problem.

-I know that the MMF is not very strong for a shapeshifting class.
It is weaker than the old shifter, than the shapechange spell, possible even
than simple polymorph, at least before you reach level 7.
And even that ability is given away for free to straight druids with the
Enhanced wildshape spell from the Spell compendium.
I know about Warshaper and nature warrior.
I've read MoMF bible.

My character must gain powerfull shapechanging abilities due to RP (long story), but I would feel dirty going full druid, and arcane casters don't suit theme.

So, is there any fix to that PrC? Anywhere? Splatbooks, another forums, anywhere? (suprisingly, google wasn't helpfull)
Saryn
07-14-07, 12:20 PM :bump:
dman11235
07-14-07, 12:28 PM Warshaper. That fixes it. Fast healing, immune to crits, unlimited wildshape, con and strength boost (untyped, too), etc. MoMF does not need fixing. Just because it doesn't grant spell casting and thus is "not as good" as straight Druid doesn't mean it's underpowered. The druid is amazing, and the MoMF is balanced. Then you add Warshaper to break it in half. My freind asked me if he could play the shaper/MoMF build for my gestalt campaign. He even offered to do this non-gestalt. That's how bad it is (by bad I mean good). And I still will not let him play that because it is a much more powerful build than many other gestalt builds, and that is not gestalt. As an appropriate challenge I will set them against a druid//barbarian or fighter/warshaper/MoMF a couple levels lower than them. He will have around 450 or 500 HP at level 20, so probably around 400 where they face him.
TheCobra
07-14-07, 12:52 PM The MoMF doesn't seem weak to me. Heck, if you use all the right forms, I imagine it'd be closer to overpowered.
BrutishCelt
07-21-07, 02:04 AM I know, I know, I'm just bellyaching 'cuz I want to have my cake and eat it , too.

I've since gone over the numbers and compiled some of the forms available , and upon further review, I gotta say that properly played, this is going to be one of the most broken [I]legal characters that I've ever created. I think that [Assume Supernatural Ability - Breath Weapon] oughtta serve me well when I get the gargantuan dragon forms.

Thanks for the feedback, I guess I gotta bust out the Fiend Folio and my other monster-related books to flesh out my list of forms. This is gonna be nasty. . .
The_Shaman
07-21-07, 06:36 AM Well, since a druid gets a wildshape progression anyway - and with a feat or two, can wildshape into a dragon, some magical beasts, and aberrations - you could retain a level or three of spellcasting. 4/10 is probably where I'd draw the line, though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BrutishCelt 07-12-07, 04:30 AM	I'm sure that this issue has been addressed somewhere before, but I lack the determination to hunt through a mess of threads to find it. Needless to say, I'm a huge druid fan, and I'm gearing up to play in a new Forgotten Realms campaign [I think in Rashemen]. Sor far, I've just got a druid with one level of beastmaster planned, but I would really like to focus on wildshape and retain at least half spell progression. By the by, I will be taking Dragon Wild Shape if MoMF doesn't work out. What I'd like to know is if anyone has seen a good un-nerfing of the Master of Many Forms PrC, or a variant PrC that increases wildshape options while providing some spell progression. If all else fails, I may just add a "+1 level of spellcasting at each even numbered level" line to the MoMF and see if my DM will accept it. I mean, hell. If Master Transmogrifist can give 6 levels of spellcasting over its progression, 5 for the MoMF isn't unfair, is it? Anyway, any help would be most appreciated.
Manyfist 07-12-07, 04:48 AM	I'm sure that this issue has been addressed somewhere before, but I lack the determination to hunt through a mess of threads to find it. Needless to say, I'm a huge druid fan, and I'm gearing up to play in a new Forgotten Realms campaign [I think in Rashemen]. Sor far, I've just got a druid with one level of beastmaster planned, but I would really like to focus on wildshape and retain at least half spell progression. By the by, I will be taking Dragon Wild Shape if MoMF doesn't work out. What I'd like to know is if anyone has seen a good un-nerfing of the Master of Many Forms PrC, or a variant PrC that increases wildshape options while providing some spell progression. If all else fails, I may just add a "+1 level of spellcasting at each even numbered level" line to the MoMF and see if my DM will accept it. I mean, hell. If Master Transmogrifist can give 6 levels of spellcasting over its progression, 5 for the MoMF isn't unfair, is it? Anyway, any help would be most appreciated. I would do it: 1st:no 2nd:no 3rd:yes 4th:no 5th:no 6th:yes 7th:no 8th:no 9:yes 10: no That way you'll have a little more spell progression. However you still are giving up spell progression a lot for ability to wildshape into giants...etc.
JellyPooga 07-12-07, 10:00 AM	...What I'd like to know is if anyone has seen a good un-nerfing of the Master of Many Forms PrC... MoMF needs un-nerfing??? Oh....I always thought it was one of the better balanced classes around - trade spellcasting for WildShape+...sounds like a good deal to me. If you want more Wild Shape options and Spellcasting, the Natures Warrior PrC (Complete Warrior) gives you some extra options and half spellcasting progression, but it's only 5 levels long (you could always ask your DM if you could expand it to 10 levels though...shouldn't be too hard). War Shaper gives you a few extra abilities, but doesn't advance Spellcasting, so I suppose that's out. Other than that, your looking at PrC's that advance Wild Shape, but don't actually give extra options (like Daggerspell Shaper or Arcane Heirophant). About the only advice I could give would be to take your Druid/Beastmaster and simply alternate MoMF with Druid levels. E.g. 1: Druid 2: Druid 3: Druid 4: Druid 5: Druid 6: Beastmaster 7: MoMF 8:MoMF 9: MoMF 10: Druid 11: MoMF 12: Druid 13: MoMF 14: MoMF 15: MoMF 16: Druid 17: MoMF 18: Druid 19: MoMF 20: MoMF That'll get you full Wild Shape progression (if some overlap) and throw in some spellcasting too (admittedly not much though).
Spikes01k 07-12-07, 10:17 AM	Personally I would go Druid 5, MMoF 10, Warshaper 5. But thats me. I would start to mix in warshaper with MMoF once the forms got some good bonuses. But that is just me.
Stumpy_the_Tall 07-12-07, 11:11 AM	I have to agree with spikes. My shaper will be druid5/momf10/warshaper5 as well when he is done. Druid5/momf7 then start switching in shaper. At momf7 you get the ability to take the EX abilities of the thing to shape into. I guess my point is, what do you want those extra spells for? Damage? (Aha found it. - magma hurler(MH, cf): This form has a great ranged attack that does a hell of damage. The most funny thing is that it is rated as CR 3. I think most 3rd-level characters would have no chance against a monster that deals 3d10+8+1d6 fire per hit... Medium elemental, 4 HD, 26str, 13dex, 24con, +4 natural armor, magma rock (move action, 3d10+8+1d6 fire), at level 7: DV 60 ft., immunity to cold, fire vulnerability) Healing? Exhaulted wild shape let's you shift into a unicorn. 4 free heals once a day plus a poison cure ability. Grapling? Lots of forms for this. General combat? War troll. Is there anything I need to say about this one? General outside combat stuff like moving objects just shape into an elephant to haul around a ton of stuff and shape into something else. Your stuff will meld into you and you're free to move on (requires DM approval). http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=639448 this is the link to the momf bible and has anything you would ever need to play the class well. With these options there is almost nothing you cannot do equal or better then spells can.
qwerty1 07-12-07, 11:18 AM	How about being a "Shifter" Lycanthropic type creature. I think it's LA+1 or +0
BrutishCelt 07-13-07, 01:57 AM	Thanks for the suggestions. I can't use the shifter race, though, because it's a Forgotten Realms campaign. My main goal for wanting to keep some spell progression is really for combat buffs, but honestly, on second blush, selecting the right form really is the combat buff, isn't it? I'm gonna hafta check out the warshaper, though, and see what it's all about. Again, thanks for the help folks. Time for me to go make the new players gape when they see what judicious use of the rules can accomplish.
TheCobra 07-13-07, 02:06 AM	You could always enter Master of Many Forms with a wild shaping ranger. Of course, that'd be even less spellcasting. The opposite of what you want, I guess.
Stumpy_the_Tall 07-13-07, 07:57 AM	If you just want to keep the buffs, what about maybe buying wands and keeping them on your person before shifting? One of the best things about a momf is that you are in a sence, not reliant on gear. You don't need +5 full plate of the gods when you can shift and get a +14 to AC with a forms natural armor. You also don't need a +5 keen vorpral everything bane great sword when you can turn into a tarresque (ok wait. you can't do that but there are forms that come close!) Dump a chunk of change on some good things like robes and enhance those with the necessities and then you're free to buy those buff wands and potions to your heart's content. I'm not trying to push my playstyle on you or anything. I'm also not saying that a momf is better then a full druid with spells. I'm just trying to defend that the class is good as is and very powerful in the right hands. Play it to well and you get it banned from games (Yes, I play under a few DMs and one will not let me be a momf ever again after I played one :cool: ). Hope that helped a little. Edit: Just for fun, since it was brought up, let's see how many buffs are in one form! We'll take the forest troll. You can acess it at momf2. - forest troll (MM3; af): Probably the medium-sized form with the highest constitution, this form is ideally suited to be worn beneath a human disguise in everyday situations. Natural armor and claws with quite deadly poison are an additional plus. 5 HD, medium giant, 17str, 16dex, 21con, poison; at level 7: DV 90ft, fast healing 5, LLV scent, +2 hide Assuming even 16s in all your stats (little generous but not unheard of) there is a boar's endurance (Is that the name of the +con buff? I can't think at work seeing that it's against company policy or something), poison, and at momf7 when you can get the EX qualities greater vigor, scent, and to a lesser extent blindsence (Using this because I don't know of a buff right off the top of my head that does Dark vision and Low light vision). So for one shift you get 5 buffs! Ok done being goofy. Sorry about the minor derailing.
The_Shaman 07-13-07, 08:10 AM	I think it could take 3 to 4 levels of casting before being broken, but you might have to settle for less wildshapes per day, at least. BTW, by RaW you can not change forms in the same wildshape, right? I think Warshaper takes care of that, but we are talking MoMF here.
Saryn 07-13-07, 04:25 PM	I have similar problem. -I know that the MMF is not very strong for a shapeshifting class. It is weaker than the old shifter, than the shapechange spell, possible even than simple polymorph, at least before you reach level 7. And even that ability is given away for free to straight druids with the Enhanced wildshape spell from the Spell compendium. I know about Warshaper and nature warrior. I've read MoMF bible. My character must gain powerfull shapechanging abilities due to RP (long story), but I would feel dirty going full druid, and arcane casters don't suit theme. So, is there any fix to that PrC? Anywhere? Splatbooks, another forums, anywhere? (suprisingly, google wasn't helpfull)
Saryn 07-14-07, 12:20 PM	:bump:
dman11235 07-14-07, 12:28 PM	Warshaper. That fixes it. Fast healing, immune to crits, unlimited wildshape, con and strength boost (untyped, too), etc. MoMF does not need fixing. Just because it doesn't grant spell casting and thus is "not as good" as straight Druid doesn't mean it's underpowered. The druid is amazing, and the MoMF is balanced. Then you add Warshaper to break it in half. My freind asked me if he could play the shaper/MoMF build for my gestalt campaign. He even offered to do this non-gestalt. That's how bad it is (by bad I mean good). And I still will not let him play that because it is a much more powerful build than many other gestalt builds, and that is not gestalt. As an appropriate challenge I will set them against a druid//barbarian or fighter/warshaper/MoMF a couple levels lower than them. He will have around 450 or 500 HP at level 20, so probably around 400 where they face him.
TheCobra 07-14-07, 12:52 PM	The MoMF doesn't seem weak to me. Heck, if you use all the right forms, I imagine it'd be closer to overpowered.
BrutishCelt 07-21-07, 02:04 AM	I know, I know, I'm just bellyaching 'cuz I want to have my cake and eat it , too. I've since gone over the numbers and compiled some of the forms available , and upon further review, I gotta say that properly played, this is going to be one of the most broken [I]legal characters that I've ever created. I think that [Assume Supernatural Ability - Breath Weapon] oughtta serve me well when I get the gargantuan dragon forms. Thanks for the feedback, I guess I gotta bust out the Fiend Folio and my other monster-related books to flesh out my list of forms. This is gonna be nasty. . .
The_Shaman 07-21-07, 06:36 AM	Well, since a druid gets a wildshape progression anyway - and with a feat or two, can wildshape into a dragon, some magical beasts, and aberrations - you could retain a level or three of spellcasting. 4/10 is probably where I'd draw the line, though.