Master of Nine 10-level progression [Archive] - Wizards Community

Master of Nine 10-level progression [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bfiggins
02-28-08, 09:59 PM I've made a few attempts before to turn the Master of Nine, from the Tome of Battle, into a 10-level class. Here's my latest attempt. Here, I pretty much just followed the Master of Nine level 1-5 progression and added an improved version of each ability. BAB, saves, maneuver progression, and Dual Stance duration proceed as normal for the Mo9.

Level 6: Discipline Improvisation - A Master of Nine becomes adept at modifying his maneuvers, executing the motions of one discipline with the focus of another. When activating a maneuver or entering a stance, the Master may declare the maneuver or stance to be from any of the nine disciplines. This replaces the maneuver or stance's original discipline for its duration. It does not change the maneuver's type, primary attribute, or save DC, but may cause the maneuver to interact with different feats and special abilities.

Level 7: Adaptive Flexibility - You may sacrifice a move action to gain an additional swift action on your turn. You may likewise gain an additional immediate action by sacrificing a move action for the next round. You can sacrifice a double-move to have three swift or immediate actions in a round, if desired.

Level 8: Improved Perfect Form - You initiate your maneuvers with unmatched skill. The save DC of any maneuver you initiate increases by an additional 1, for a total of +2.

Level 9: Boost Stance - Whenever you initiate a boost maneuver, you can change your stance as part of the boost's action.

Level 10: Improved Mastery of Nine - You gain an additional +2 on attack rolls when initiating any strike maneuver, for a total of +4. Your strikes deal extra damage equal to twice the number of disciplines you readied maneuvers from at the beginning of the day.
StevenO
02-28-08, 11:14 PM Expanding a five level PrC out to ten level always requires taking something (often several somethings) out of those first five levels. Part of what "balances" a five level class is that those are all the levels you are going to get so that could be a touch better than average. Keeping everything the same over the first five levels of an expanded class and continuing with the same progression to ten levels and then beyond into epic is broken.

I'm not familiar with the Master of Nine. I see mention of a "dual progression" and that really would scare me because such may be balanced over five levels but expanded to ten can break thing. For something like dual progression expanding the class would definitely REMOVE full dual progression breaking it down to at least 1/2 progression with the possibility of a few dual progressing levels.
Eldritch_Lord
03-01-08, 09:49 PM Expanding a five level PrC out to ten level always requires taking something (often several somethings) out of those first five levels. Part of what "balances" a five level class is that those are all the levels you are going to get so that could be a touch better than average. Keeping everything the same over the first five levels of an expanded class and continuing with the same progression to ten levels and then beyond into epic is broken.

Conversely, levels 6-10 are balanced because you have to give up more to get to those levels.

I'm not familiar with the Master of Nine. I see mention of a "dual progression" and that really would scare me because such may be balanced over five levels but expanded to ten can break thing. For something like dual progression expanding the class would definitely REMOVE full dual progression breaking it down to at least 1/2 progression with the possibility of a few dual progressing levels.

There's no dual progression involved; I take it you haven't read Tome of Battle? It's a PrC in there.

@OP: Adaptive flexibility mentions that "You can potentially sacrifice both your standard action and move action to have three swift actions in a round, if desired" but doesn't mention giving up standard actions before that. The levels should be 6-10, not 16-20. Otherwise, it looks good overall.
runestar
03-01-08, 10:39 PM Conversely, levels 6-10 are balanced because you have to give up more to get to those levels.

An opportunity cost is really only meaningful if the next best alternative forgone would actually have been worth something.

Master of nine gave my 3 maneuvers known every 2 lvs, 1 extra maneuver readied every lv and a new stance every other lv. Based on this alone, I would readily fill out the prc all the way, and continue taking it from lv6-10, and well beyond that if I could.
Eldritch_Lord
03-02-08, 11:07 AM An opportunity cost is really only meaningful if the next best alternative forgone would actually have been worth something.

Master of nine gave my 3 maneuvers known every 2 lvs, 1 extra maneuver readied every lv and a new stance every other lv. Based on this alone, I would readily fill out the prc all the way, and continue taking it from lv6-10, and well beyond that if I could.

Oh, granted, the Master of Nine is easily better than any alternatives and wouldn't be balanced in and of itself taken to 10 levels; however, I was referring to StevenO's statement that extending PrCs "always requires taking something out of those first five levels," not the Master of Nine in particular. For example, extending the Hellfire Warlock to 5 levels wouldn't be that overpowering, as the warlock needs to boost its damage to keep up at high levels, and the Geometer and Wayfarer Guide from Complete Arcane aren't that good, but in some specific cases his advice holds true.
bfiggins
03-03-08, 04:08 PM @OP: Adaptive flexibility mentions that "You can potentially sacrifice both your standard action and move action to have three swift actions in a round, if desired" but doesn't mention giving up standard actions before that. The levels should be 6-10, not 16-20. Otherwise, it looks good overall.

I felt that was redundant, since by RAW you can already sacrifice a Standard action for a Move action. Good catch on the 16-20 bit; I'm taking it from those levels (with GM approval), but not everyone would be.
Eldritch_Lord
03-03-08, 04:11 PM I felt that was redundant, since by RAW you can already sacrifice a Standard action for a Move action.

I suppose so; I guess I just thought that you'd sacrifice a double move for 2 swifts instead of a standard->swift and a move->swift.

Good catch on the 16-20 bit; I'm taking it from those levels (with GM approval), but not everyone would be.

You're welcome.
bfiggins
03-03-08, 04:12 PM So I'm getting a feeling from the above posters that this 'simple' approach - essentially just allowing the player to pursue the 5-level Mo9 progression twice - would end up being too much.

What if we drop Improved Perfect Form and Improved Mastery of Nine - the abilities that stack - and spread the other abilities out over the 10 levels?
Eldritch_Lord
03-03-08, 11:22 PM So I'm getting a feeling from the above posters that this 'simple' approach - essentially just allowing the player to pursue the 5-level Mo9 progression twice - would end up being too much.

What if we drop Improved Perfect Form and Improved Mastery of Nine - the abilities that stack - and spread the other abilities out over the 10 levels?

The abilities are fine and balanced; it's the 2-1-2-1-2-1 maneuvers known progression and the fast readied/stances known progression that are the problem. If you made the maneuvers known something like 2-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-2-2 and reduced maneuvers readied and stances known by 1 each, you should be fine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bfiggins 02-28-08, 09:59 PM	I've made a few attempts before to turn the Master of Nine, from the Tome of Battle, into a 10-level class. Here's my latest attempt. Here, I pretty much just followed the Master of Nine level 1-5 progression and added an improved version of each ability. BAB, saves, maneuver progression, and Dual Stance duration proceed as normal for the Mo9. Level 6: Discipline Improvisation - A Master of Nine becomes adept at modifying his maneuvers, executing the motions of one discipline with the focus of another. When activating a maneuver or entering a stance, the Master may declare the maneuver or stance to be from any of the nine disciplines. This replaces the maneuver or stance's original discipline for its duration. It does not change the maneuver's type, primary attribute, or save DC, but may cause the maneuver to interact with different feats and special abilities. Level 7: Adaptive Flexibility - You may sacrifice a move action to gain an additional swift action on your turn. You may likewise gain an additional immediate action by sacrificing a move action for the next round. You can sacrifice a double-move to have three swift or immediate actions in a round, if desired. Level 8: Improved Perfect Form - You initiate your maneuvers with unmatched skill. The save DC of any maneuver you initiate increases by an additional 1, for a total of +2. Level 9: Boost Stance - Whenever you initiate a boost maneuver, you can change your stance as part of the boost's action. Level 10: Improved Mastery of Nine - You gain an additional +2 on attack rolls when initiating any strike maneuver, for a total of +4. Your strikes deal extra damage equal to twice the number of disciplines you readied maneuvers from at the beginning of the day.
StevenO 02-28-08, 11:14 PM	Expanding a five level PrC out to ten level always requires taking something (often several somethings) out of those first five levels. Part of what "balances" a five level class is that those are all the levels you are going to get so that could be a touch better than average. Keeping everything the same over the first five levels of an expanded class and continuing with the same progression to ten levels and then beyond into epic is broken. I'm not familiar with the Master of Nine. I see mention of a "dual progression" and that really would scare me because such may be balanced over five levels but expanded to ten can break thing. For something like dual progression expanding the class would definitely REMOVE full dual progression breaking it down to at least 1/2 progression with the possibility of a few dual progressing levels.
Eldritch_Lord 03-01-08, 09:49 PM	Expanding a five level PrC out to ten level always requires taking something (often several somethings) out of those first five levels. Part of what "balances" a five level class is that those are all the levels you are going to get so that could be a touch better than average. Keeping everything the same over the first five levels of an expanded class and continuing with the same progression to ten levels and then beyond into epic is broken. Conversely, levels 6-10 are balanced because you have to give up more to get to those levels. I'm not familiar with the Master of Nine. I see mention of a "dual progression" and that really would scare me because such may be balanced over five levels but expanded to ten can break thing. For something like dual progression expanding the class would definitely REMOVE full dual progression breaking it down to at least 1/2 progression with the possibility of a few dual progressing levels. There's no dual progression involved; I take it you haven't read Tome of Battle? It's a PrC in there. @OP: Adaptive flexibility mentions that "You can potentially sacrifice both your standard action and move action to have three swift actions in a round, if desired" but doesn't mention giving up standard actions before that. The levels should be 6-10, not 16-20. Otherwise, it looks good overall.
runestar 03-01-08, 10:39 PM	Conversely, levels 6-10 are balanced because you have to give up more to get to those levels. An opportunity cost is really only meaningful if the next best alternative forgone would actually have been worth something. Master of nine gave my 3 maneuvers known every 2 lvs, 1 extra maneuver readied every lv and a new stance every other lv. Based on this alone, I would readily fill out the prc all the way, and continue taking it from lv6-10, and well beyond that if I could.
Eldritch_Lord 03-02-08, 11:07 AM	An opportunity cost is really only meaningful if the next best alternative forgone would actually have been worth something. Master of nine gave my 3 maneuvers known every 2 lvs, 1 extra maneuver readied every lv and a new stance every other lv. Based on this alone, I would readily fill out the prc all the way, and continue taking it from lv6-10, and well beyond that if I could. Oh, granted, the Master of Nine is easily better than any alternatives and wouldn't be balanced in and of itself taken to 10 levels; however, I was referring to StevenO's statement that extending PrCs "always requires taking something out of those first five levels," not the Master of Nine in particular. For example, extending the Hellfire Warlock to 5 levels wouldn't be that overpowering, as the warlock needs to boost its damage to keep up at high levels, and the Geometer and Wayfarer Guide from Complete Arcane aren't that good, but in some specific cases his advice holds true.
bfiggins 03-03-08, 04:08 PM	@OP: Adaptive flexibility mentions that "You can potentially sacrifice both your standard action and move action to have three swift actions in a round, if desired" but doesn't mention giving up standard actions before that. The levels should be 6-10, not 16-20. Otherwise, it looks good overall. I felt that was redundant, since by RAW you can already sacrifice a Standard action for a Move action. Good catch on the 16-20 bit; I'm taking it from those levels (with GM approval), but not everyone would be.
Eldritch_Lord 03-03-08, 04:11 PM	I felt that was redundant, since by RAW you can already sacrifice a Standard action for a Move action. I suppose so; I guess I just thought that you'd sacrifice a double move for 2 swifts instead of a standard->swift and a move->swift. Good catch on the 16-20 bit; I'm taking it from those levels (with GM approval), but not everyone would be. You're welcome.
bfiggins 03-03-08, 04:12 PM	So I'm getting a feeling from the above posters that this 'simple' approach - essentially just allowing the player to pursue the 5-level Mo9 progression twice - would end up being too much. What if we drop Improved Perfect Form and Improved Mastery of Nine - the abilities that stack - and spread the other abilities out over the 10 levels?
Eldritch_Lord 03-03-08, 11:22 PM	So I'm getting a feeling from the above posters that this 'simple' approach - essentially just allowing the player to pursue the 5-level Mo9 progression twice - would end up being too much. What if we drop Improved Perfect Form and Improved Mastery of Nine - the abilities that stack - and spread the other abilities out over the 10 levels? The abilities are fine and balanced; it's the 2-1-2-1-2-1 maneuvers known progression and the fast readied/stances known progression that are the problem. If you made the maneuvers known something like 2-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-2-2 and reduced maneuvers readied and stances known by 1 each, you should be fine.