Master of the Unseen Hand and Rings of Telekinesis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Master of the Unseen Hand and Rings of Telekinesis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wickerbull
03-10-07, 12:56 AM Hello all,

What do you think? Can a MotUH gain the benefit of his class features (especially improved caster level) if he uses telekinesis from the ring instead of casting telekinesis or using it as a spell-like ability?
D.K.R.
03-10-07, 05:55 PM Yes, any prestige class can utilize magic items or permanent spell effects to qualify. However if you are using the rings to get into the class, if you lose them you lose all class abilities until you once again qualify.

If, on the other hand, you're just using it for extra uses each day, it is a great thing to do!

In the end, it is legal either way, but check with your DM first; I know many who ban the qualifying for a prestige class with magic items outright, and a few who limit/ban the use of magic items to activate a PRC ability.
Bob Loblaw
03-10-07, 07:56 PM Hello all,

What do you think? Can a MotUH gain the benefit of his class features (especially improved caster level) if he uses telekinesis from the ring instead of casting telekinesis or using it as a spell-like ability?

I would say maybe. Some things, sure. Others, no.

Improved Caster Level: No. He isn't casting so there is nothing to improve.
Versatile Telekinesis: No. It speaks directly to the spell or ability rather than the effect.
Telekinetic Wielder: Yes, but he must the the caster level of the ring and the minimum Intelligence needed to craft the ring. So I would say +11 Base Attack Bonus.
Sustained Concentration: No. He isn't actually casting the spell.
Full Attack Telekinesis: Sure, but the Base Attack is still +11 so while he'll get 3 attacks, they are probably not going to hit.
Improved Violent Thrust: Sure, but again the bonus would only be +11.
Telekinetic Flight: Sure
Fling Skyward: Sure

That's if I was going to rule each part separately. However, I usually try to keep it simple and just say no in this case. The idea is that the Master of the Unseen Hand uses his own power rather than an external source.
D.K.R.
03-10-07, 08:21 PM According to the DMG, Telekinesis:This ring allows the caster to use the spell telekineses on command.
I specifically see the words 'spell' and 'caster' meaning the person is casting the spell telekineses on demand.

Is it open to interpretation? Sure. Just as I said in my post above, clear it with your DM. Personally, I would allow it in my campaign were I DMing... but my player would need to be very wary of losing that ring!
Wickerbull
03-11-07, 12:52 AM Fortunately, I'm DMing this campaign, so I do get the final say. I just want to be kosher, so to speak.

As far as qualifying for the prestige class goes, I wouldn't allow the candidate to use the ring to qualify unless they were somehow bonded to the item (with the Item Familiar feat or some other way).

Bob, I can see your point. I had a similar interpretation.

Our only difference is that I was seeing the MotUH class as masters of telekinesis in general, instead of masters of a particular spell. But, now that I'm thinking of all the other classes that focus on particular spells, class features, etc., I am begininng to reject that idea.

But as for the ring...

Looking at the difference between command word, spell completion, and spell trigger items, it seems that spell completion and spell trigger items are forms of spellcasting, while command word isn't.

Considering the language of the ring of telekinesis entry, the ring could either be a spell trigger item or a command word item. On the one hand you've got the words "caster" and "spell," suggesting spell trigger, and then there's the word "command," which could suggest command word.

It seems to me that it would have to be up to the DM to determine whether rings of telekinesis (and similar ambiguous items) are one activation method or another. If the ring is command word, the MotUH class features are going to be invalid while using the ring under certain circumstances (in my interpretation, anyway). But, if the DM decides to make the ring a spell-trigger item, all the class features are potentially open to the MotUH while he uses the ring, since he would be casting the spell whenever he used the ring. But, only sorcerers and wizards would be able to use the ring, so characters that qualify for MotUH without being wizards or sorcerers would be at a loss.

Eh, maybe I'm over-thinking it. I'll take the class features one by one and tweak from there.
D.K.R.
03-11-07, 04:00 AM AS you said, if you're the DM, it is your call. I both DM and play, and so I struggle with issues like this from time to time. I see what I would want and enjoy the most as a player, and what seems to be the intent/spirit of the rules as a DM - and they don't always align. Since I want my players to enjoy the game as much as possible, but since I also want to make sure the game is fair across the board, and doesn't spiral out of control...I tend to get in these quandaries a lot.

There have been FAQ rulings that specifically clarify the 'RAW' or Rules As Written to specify that it is legal to qualify for prestige classes based on temporary things such as magic items and spells that have been cast on you. To me, even the clarifications leave a lot of room for debate, but to go 100% by the letter of their law, it is legal.

Master of the Unseen Hand specifies a requirement to be able to cast the spell, or access to telekineses as a spell-like or supernatural ability. Access to cast that spell can include having a scroll of the spell and ranks in Use Magic Device - would I allow that as a DM? No. Is it technically legal? I am afraid it might be.

In any event - when you start to feel you are over-thinking something, it is a sure sign you are. At this point, my advice from a player's perspective, as well as a DM's... just stop thinking about the rules and think about how it will affect your game positively and negatively if you allow it.

Does it allow some potential abuse of power? sure. Does it give the player a potential handicap? absolutely. Rings can be sundered, stolen (sleight of hand can take it off the finger), or otherwise negated. If the player is basing their build on a ring or two, it gives them a huge handicap over a player who can cast the spell and uses the ring to supplement their abilities.

It is your call on how you feel it affects your game, I can only say that I would personally allow it... with a forewarning to the player that if they lose the ring, they lose all class features (besides HP, Skill Points, and Feats, etc.).

As to the other aspect, giving a MotUH a ring to supplement their abilities; I disagree with bob and feel that the ring can power each and every power of the class. Once you activate the ring, you have the spell. The only exception would be the increased caster level - your caster level is actually still increased... but of course your caster level has no effect on a spell cast from a ring.

Now, you again should chuck the rules out the window and think about how it affects your game, your group, and yourself. You gain unlimited use of all class abilities which weren't completely balanced to be used an unlimited number of times per day. But the cost of 75,000 GP is enough to offset this minor bump in power, when compared to what else can be gained with another 75kGP item? I would say yes - it is your call for your group. Especially given that there are several other ways to increase the number of times you can cast that spell until it might as well be limitless for most any game.

All in all, it comes down to the old standby, which I have said a few times in a few different ways - do what is best for you and your group, and enables everyone (not just one player, but everyone) to have the most fun. Which can be a hard call at times...different groups enjoy different things,and in some groups it is impossible for everyone to have fun at the same time. Some enjoy crunchy strategic battles to the exclusion of all else, others like pure fluff roleplay with no dice, and the majority fall somewhere in between...
Wickerbull
03-11-07, 03:46 PM You make some good points.

As far as the campaign goes, I'm having the same issue that you addressed. I'm DMing, but the MotUH is gonna be my character. I don't want my character to be unbalanced, so I'm trying to be as close as I can to the rules for the sake of the rest of the characters.

Because I didn't want to bother with the headaches, I scrapped the ring altogether and I'm gonna go with a staff of telekinesis instead. That way I'd be actually casting the spell, so, I can use all my class abilities. Plus, I can use my caster level when I use the staff.

That should solve any problems. All I need to do is make sure that spell trigger items are treated as a form of spellcasting. I'm pretty sure that they are.
Red_Rabbit
03-11-07, 08:19 PM I would say no, because he doesn't have the ability to cast the spell and magical items don't fit for PrC requirements, but that's just me and the Complete Warrior Saying so.

From "Master of the Unseen Hand"
Spells: Able to CAST the TELEKINESIS SPELL, or access to telekinesis as a spell-like or supernatural ability.

There isn't two ways to look at this it's just what the book says and what the player REALLY REALLY wants it to say so he can have it, but if your gonna use Interruptions than you could make a Worg who can hike his leg to get this class.

The Rabbit

P.S. Staff of Telekinesis doesn't make you cast the spell it just uses your caster lvl instead of the MAGICAL ITEMS caster lvl. Still wouldn't not meet the requirements. Just make your character half whatever and half gith have the NPC look more like the whatever race with the Inherited Gith Telekinesis power. Gith is +1 ECL from the Planar Handbook.
D.K.R.
03-11-07, 09:15 PM I would say no, because he doesn't have the ability to cast the spell and magical items don't fit for PrC requirements, but that's just me and the Complete Warrior Saying so.

From "Master of the Unseen Hand"
Spells: Able to CAST the TELEKINESIS SPELL, or access to telekinesis as a spell-like or supernatural ability.

There isn't two ways to look at this it's just what the book says and what the player REALLY REALLY wants it to say so he can have it, but if your gonna use Interruptions than you could make a Worg who can hike his leg to get this class.

The Rabbit

P.S. Staff of Telekinesis doesn't make you cast the spell it just uses your caster lvl instead of the MAGICAL ITEMS caster lvl. Still wouldn't not meet the requirements. Just make your character half whatever and half gith have the NPC look more like the whatever race with the Inherited Gith Telekinesis power. Gith is +1 ECL from the Planar Handbook.

You capitalized the wrong portion... there is an 'OR' in there, allowing other things besides the ability to cast the spell. Aside from that, there are numerous official rulings from many and sundry WotC spokespeople and representatives that specifically state that magic items can be used to qualify for a PRC. Many DMs do not like that or allow it, but it doesn't change the intent of the rules as written by the authors and publishers of the D&D system.

As I said before, each DM needs to rule as is appropriate for his or her game. But it shouldn't be out of ignorance of the rules, nor out of actively misinterpreting the rules as you would wish. Recognize what the correct ruling is, and then decide if that works for your game, if not then house-rule it.
Red_Rabbit
03-11-07, 09:26 PM You capitalized the wrong portion... there is an 'OR' in there, allowing other things besides the ability to cast the spell.

Obviously you didn't look at what's on the other side of the or where it says From "Master of the Unseen Hand"
Spells: Able to CAST the TELEKINESIS SPELL, or access to telekinesis as a spell-like or supernatural ability.

So you can see it says "Able to CAST the TELEKINESIS SPELL" and than on the other side of the word "OR" it says "ACCESS TO TELEKINESIS AS A SPELL-LIKE OR SUPERNATURAL ABILITY" leaving no room in there for any other ways to read it, because the word "OR" is surrounded by 2 reasons that come straight out of the complete warrior.

So your above quote is way off and leaves no room for your thoughts above. Or the use of magical items in this class. It really doesn't matter to me what he does, because I'm probly never gonna meet or play with him anyway. As long as he knows the rules it's his own game and he can change what he wants, but it won't be following the rules.

The Rabbit
Treymordin
03-13-07, 01:42 PM I would say that you have to be of a significant level to be able to cast the spewll to be able to qualify for this PRC.
Wickerbull
03-13-07, 05:59 PM So your above quote is way off and leaves no room for your thoughts above. Or the use of magical items in this class.

Except that, as D.K.R. has pointed out, you can qualify for prestige classes with magic items. (As an aside, I'd like D.K.R. to post a link or two so that we can cover the bases.) I've seen references to using

If you can qualify for prestige classes (and feats, for that matter) with magic items, it logically follows that you should be able to use those magic items to gain those class features.

I agree with you that there's only one way to read the prerequisites. That being said, the ability to cast a telekinesis spell can be done by anyone who has a staff or scroll of telekinesis and can use that scroll or staff. Using spell trigger and spell completion items is the same as spellcasting.

So, I guess that we've pretty much solved the problem.

I would say that you have to be of a significant level to be able to cast the spewll to be able to qualify for this PRC.

You need to be at least 5th, so that you have the appropriate ranks in Concentration. If you're using a scroll to qualify for the prestige class you should be 9th or 10th level anyway so that you can cast the spell risk free. If you use a staff or ring, you've got to be able to afford the item. No 5th level character can buy either a staff or ring of telekinesis.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wickerbull 03-10-07, 12:56 AM	Hello all, What do you think? Can a MotUH gain the benefit of his class features (especially improved caster level) if he uses telekinesis from the ring instead of casting telekinesis or using it as a spell-like ability?
D.K.R. 03-10-07, 05:55 PM	Yes, any prestige class can utilize magic items or permanent spell effects to qualify. However if you are using the rings to get into the class, if you lose them you lose all class abilities until you once again qualify. If, on the other hand, you're just using it for extra uses each day, it is a great thing to do! In the end, it is legal either way, but check with your DM first; I know many who ban the qualifying for a prestige class with magic items outright, and a few who limit/ban the use of magic items to activate a PRC ability.
Bob Loblaw 03-10-07, 07:56 PM	Hello all, What do you think? Can a MotUH gain the benefit of his class features (especially improved caster level) if he uses telekinesis from the ring instead of casting telekinesis or using it as a spell-like ability? I would say maybe. Some things, sure. Others, no. Improved Caster Level: No. He isn't casting so there is nothing to improve. Versatile Telekinesis: No. It speaks directly to the spell or ability rather than the effect. Telekinetic Wielder: Yes, but he must the the caster level of the ring and the minimum Intelligence needed to craft the ring. So I would say +11 Base Attack Bonus. Sustained Concentration: No. He isn't actually casting the spell. Full Attack Telekinesis: Sure, but the Base Attack is still +11 so while he'll get 3 attacks, they are probably not going to hit. Improved Violent Thrust: Sure, but again the bonus would only be +11. Telekinetic Flight: Sure Fling Skyward: Sure That's if I was going to rule each part separately. However, I usually try to keep it simple and just say no in this case. The idea is that the Master of the Unseen Hand uses his own power rather than an external source.
D.K.R. 03-10-07, 08:21 PM	According to the DMG, Telekinesis:This ring allows the caster to use the spell telekineses on command. I specifically see the words 'spell' and 'caster' meaning the person is casting the spell telekineses on demand. Is it open to interpretation? Sure. Just as I said in my post above, clear it with your DM. Personally, I would allow it in my campaign were I DMing... but my player would need to be very wary of losing that ring!
Wickerbull 03-11-07, 12:52 AM	Fortunately, I'm DMing this campaign, so I do get the final say. I just want to be kosher, so to speak. As far as qualifying for the prestige class goes, I wouldn't allow the candidate to use the ring to qualify unless they were somehow bonded to the item (with the Item Familiar feat or some other way). Bob, I can see your point. I had a similar interpretation. Our only difference is that I was seeing the MotUH class as masters of telekinesis in general, instead of masters of a particular spell. But, now that I'm thinking of all the other classes that focus on particular spells, class features, etc., I am begininng to reject that idea. But as for the ring... Looking at the difference between command word, spell completion, and spell trigger items, it seems that spell completion and spell trigger items are forms of spellcasting, while command word isn't. Considering the language of the ring of telekinesis entry, the ring could either be a spell trigger item or a command word item. On the one hand you've got the words "caster" and "spell," suggesting spell trigger, and then there's the word "command," which could suggest command word. It seems to me that it would have to be up to the DM to determine whether rings of telekinesis (and similar ambiguous items) are one activation method or another. If the ring is command word, the MotUH class features are going to be invalid while using the ring under certain circumstances (in my interpretation, anyway). But, if the DM decides to make the ring a spell-trigger item, all the class features are potentially open to the MotUH while he uses the ring, since he would be casting the spell whenever he used the ring. But, only sorcerers and wizards would be able to use the ring, so characters that qualify for MotUH without being wizards or sorcerers would be at a loss. Eh, maybe I'm over-thinking it. I'll take the class features one by one and tweak from there.
D.K.R. 03-11-07, 04:00 AM	AS you said, if you're the DM, it is your call. I both DM and play, and so I struggle with issues like this from time to time. I see what I would want and enjoy the most as a player, and what seems to be the intent/spirit of the rules as a DM - and they don't always align. Since I want my players to enjoy the game as much as possible, but since I also want to make sure the game is fair across the board, and doesn't spiral out of control...I tend to get in these quandaries a lot. There have been FAQ rulings that specifically clarify the 'RAW' or Rules As Written to specify that it is legal to qualify for prestige classes based on temporary things such as magic items and spells that have been cast on you. To me, even the clarifications leave a lot of room for debate, but to go 100% by the letter of their law, it is legal. Master of the Unseen Hand specifies a requirement to be able to cast the spell, or access to telekineses as a spell-like or supernatural ability. Access to cast that spell can include having a scroll of the spell and ranks in Use Magic Device - would I allow that as a DM? No. Is it technically legal? I am afraid it might be. In any event - when you start to feel you are over-thinking something, it is a sure sign you are. At this point, my advice from a player's perspective, as well as a DM's... just stop thinking about the rules and think about how it will affect your game positively and negatively if you allow it. Does it allow some potential abuse of power? sure. Does it give the player a potential handicap? absolutely. Rings can be sundered, stolen (sleight of hand can take it off the finger), or otherwise negated. If the player is basing their build on a ring or two, it gives them a huge handicap over a player who can cast the spell and uses the ring to supplement their abilities. It is your call on how you feel it affects your game, I can only say that I would personally allow it... with a forewarning to the player that if they lose the ring, they lose all class features (besides HP, Skill Points, and Feats, etc.). As to the other aspect, giving a MotUH a ring to supplement their abilities; I disagree with bob and feel that the ring can power each and every power of the class. Once you activate the ring, you have the spell. The only exception would be the increased caster level - your caster level is actually still increased... but of course your caster level has no effect on a spell cast from a ring. Now, you again should chuck the rules out the window and think about how it affects your game, your group, and yourself. You gain unlimited use of all class abilities which weren't completely balanced to be used an unlimited number of times per day. But the cost of 75,000 GP is enough to offset this minor bump in power, when compared to what else can be gained with another 75kGP item? I would say yes - it is your call for your group. Especially given that there are several other ways to increase the number of times you can cast that spell until it might as well be limitless for most any game. All in all, it comes down to the old standby, which I have said a few times in a few different ways - do what is best for you and your group, and enables everyone (not just one player, but everyone) to have the most fun. Which can be a hard call at times...different groups enjoy different things,and in some groups it is impossible for everyone to have fun at the same time. Some enjoy crunchy strategic battles to the exclusion of all else, others like pure fluff roleplay with no dice, and the majority fall somewhere in between...
Wickerbull 03-11-07, 03:46 PM	You make some good points. As far as the campaign goes, I'm having the same issue that you addressed. I'm DMing, but the MotUH is gonna be my character. I don't want my character to be unbalanced, so I'm trying to be as close as I can to the rules for the sake of the rest of the characters. Because I didn't want to bother with the headaches, I scrapped the ring altogether and I'm gonna go with a staff of telekinesis instead. That way I'd be actually casting the spell, so, I can use all my class abilities. Plus, I can use my caster level when I use the staff. That should solve any problems. All I need to do is make sure that spell trigger items are treated as a form of spellcasting. I'm pretty sure that they are.
Red_Rabbit 03-11-07, 08:19 PM	I would say no, because he doesn't have the ability to cast the spell and magical items don't fit for PrC requirements, but that's just me and the Complete Warrior Saying so. From "Master of the Unseen Hand" Spells: Able to CAST the TELEKINESIS SPELL, or access to telekinesis as a spell-like or supernatural ability. There isn't two ways to look at this it's just what the book says and what the player REALLY REALLY wants it to say so he can have it, but if your gonna use Interruptions than you could make a Worg who can hike his leg to get this class. The Rabbit P.S. Staff of Telekinesis doesn't make you cast the spell it just uses your caster lvl instead of the MAGICAL ITEMS caster lvl. Still wouldn't not meet the requirements. Just make your character half whatever and half gith have the NPC look more like the whatever race with the Inherited Gith Telekinesis power. Gith is +1 ECL from the Planar Handbook.
D.K.R. 03-11-07, 09:15 PM	I would say no, because he doesn't have the ability to cast the spell and magical items don't fit for PrC requirements, but that's just me and the Complete Warrior Saying so. From "Master of the Unseen Hand" Spells: Able to CAST the TELEKINESIS SPELL, or access to telekinesis as a spell-like or supernatural ability. There isn't two ways to look at this it's just what the book says and what the player REALLY REALLY wants it to say so he can have it, but if your gonna use Interruptions than you could make a Worg who can hike his leg to get this class. The Rabbit P.S. Staff of Telekinesis doesn't make you cast the spell it just uses your caster lvl instead of the MAGICAL ITEMS caster lvl. Still wouldn't not meet the requirements. Just make your character half whatever and half gith have the NPC look more like the whatever race with the Inherited Gith Telekinesis power. Gith is +1 ECL from the Planar Handbook. You capitalized the wrong portion... there is an 'OR' in there, allowing other things besides the ability to cast the spell. Aside from that, there are numerous official rulings from many and sundry WotC spokespeople and representatives that specifically state that magic items can be used to qualify for a PRC. Many DMs do not like that or allow it, but it doesn't change the intent of the rules as written by the authors and publishers of the D&D system. As I said before, each DM needs to rule as is appropriate for his or her game. But it shouldn't be out of ignorance of the rules, nor out of actively misinterpreting the rules as you would wish. Recognize what the correct ruling is, and then decide if that works for your game, if not then house-rule it.
Red_Rabbit 03-11-07, 09:26 PM	You capitalized the wrong portion... there is an 'OR' in there, allowing other things besides the ability to cast the spell. Obviously you didn't look at what's on the other side of the or where it says From "Master of the Unseen Hand" Spells: Able to CAST the TELEKINESIS SPELL, or access to telekinesis as a spell-like or supernatural ability. So you can see it says "Able to CAST the TELEKINESIS SPELL" and than on the other side of the word "OR" it says "ACCESS TO TELEKINESIS AS A SPELL-LIKE OR SUPERNATURAL ABILITY" leaving no room in there for any other ways to read it, because the word "OR" is surrounded by 2 reasons that come straight out of the complete warrior. So your above quote is way off and leaves no room for your thoughts above. Or the use of magical items in this class. It really doesn't matter to me what he does, because I'm probly never gonna meet or play with him anyway. As long as he knows the rules it's his own game and he can change what he wants, but it won't be following the rules. The Rabbit
Treymordin 03-13-07, 01:42 PM	I would say that you have to be of a significant level to be able to cast the spewll to be able to qualify for this PRC.
Wickerbull 03-13-07, 05:59 PM	So your above quote is way off and leaves no room for your thoughts above. Or the use of magical items in this class. Except that, as D.K.R. has pointed out, you can qualify for prestige classes with magic items. (As an aside, I'd like D.K.R. to post a link or two so that we can cover the bases.) I've seen references to using If you can qualify for prestige classes (and feats, for that matter) with magic items, it logically follows that you should be able to use those magic items to gain those class features. I agree with you that there's only one way to read the prerequisites. That being said, the ability to cast a telekinesis spell can be done by anyone who has a staff or scroll of telekinesis and can use that scroll or staff. Using spell trigger and spell completion items is the same as spellcasting. So, I guess that we've pretty much solved the problem. I would say that you have to be of a significant level to be able to cast the spewll to be able to qualify for this PRC. You need to be at least 5th, so that you have the appropriate ranks in Concentration. If you're using a scroll to qualify for the prestige class you should be 9th or 10th level anyway so that you can cast the spell risk free. If you use a staff or ring, you've got to be able to afford the item. No 5th level character can buy either a staff or ring of telekinesis.