Master Specialist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Master Specialist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Adonis1x23
03-23-08, 07:09 PM Edit: Sorry I am an idiot
baronvonboxy
03-23-08, 07:15 PM You don't need to give up a school for Master Specialist, you have to be a specialist wizard which makes you give up 2 schools other than Divination, or a diviner who only has to give up one school.
Adonis1x23
03-23-08, 07:23 PM O ok, sorry must have read that wrong.
Lotus Crane
03-23-08, 10:52 PM There are actually two things in Complete Mage:

1) The Focused Specialist alternate class feature makes you lose another school of magic for additional spells per day.

2) The Master Specialist prestige class does other stuff.
Adonis1x23
03-24-08, 01:58 AM Ya, I know. The OP was about a focused specialist that becomes a Master Specialist, I got confused and added that feature to both in my mind.
Sinfire Titan
03-24-08, 01:53 PM Sadly, some DMs think it is reasonable to make a Master Specialist ban another school of magic. Kindly show them the point of the PrC is to enter Archmage easily, and that a Focused Specialist who didn't choose Divination would be unable to enter Archmage if they had to ban a 4th school of magic. This logic always makes them rethink the flavor behind MS.
Gray Scholar
03-25-08, 01:29 PM Sadly, some DMs think it is reasonable to make a Master Specialist ban another school of magic.I can see why they think so. In order to enter the Master Specialist class, does the specialist wizard give up anything? At all?

I suppose there's familiar advancement, and possibly being forced to take Skill Focus (spellcraft) instead of a more freely chosen bonus feat, but if one is headed for archmage or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil anyway, it's not a waste. Are there other things I'm missing?
RobbyPants
03-25-08, 02:21 PM I can see why they think so. In order to enter the Master Specialist class, does the specialist wizard give up anything? At all?

I suppose there's familiar advancement, and possibly being forced to take Skill Focus (spellcraft) instead of a more freely chosen bonus feat, but if one is headed for archmage or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil anyway, it's not a waste. Are there other things I'm missing?
Other than Spell Focus, no, you don't really give up anything. It's very easy to qualify for the PrC. My understanding is that it's to give people a reason to want to play a specialist in the first place. Normally, it's so much more benificial to play a generalist, so they made it an easy entry PrC.
dman11235
03-25-08, 05:44 PM Except it's been proven that a focused specialist is a better bet than a specialist, and a specialist is better than a generalist. Depends on the schools banned of course. Illusion, conjuration, and abjuration not banned and you're good to go. Be a diviner and be even better off (this is why I use the GitP divination alternate).
Sinfire Titan
03-26-08, 04:53 PM Except it's been proven that a focused specialist is a better bet than a specialist, and a specialist is better than a generalist. Depends on the schools banned of course. Illusion, conjuration, and abjuration not banned and you're good to go. Be a diviner and be even better off (this is why I use the GitP divination alternate).

Transmutation>>>>Abjuration. And I'm not even counting Polymorph in this statement. But the idea goes Conjuration>Transmutation>Illusion>Abjuration>Necromancy>Divination>Evocation>Enchantment.

Those are the schools to play, in order of which ones work the best if specialized in. I rank Illusion under Transmutation and Conjuration because I don't like spending a 4th or 8th level spell to duplicate a limited number of effects. But that is the order of power anyway, as Illusion is only broken with Shadowcraft Mage, and Trans/Conjuration is just broken at the get-go.

I can see why they think so. In order to enter the Master Specialist class, does the specialist wizard give up anything? At all?

I suppose there's familiar advancement, and possibly being forced to take Skill Focus (spellcraft) instead of a more freely chosen bonus feat, but if one is headed for archmage or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil anyway, it's not a waste. Are there other things I'm missing?

The class was designed for easier entry into Archmage. And it was supposed to allow the Wizard to enter even with the Focused Specialist ACF. Adding in the extra school banned simply prevents them from doing so unless they are Diviners, which the Divination version of MS is crap. Of all of them, Conjuration/Necromancy/Illusion/Transmutation are the good ones. Enchantment, Abjuration, and Evocation are pretty damn weak.
LSMFT
03-26-08, 05:21 PM Except it's been proven that a focused specialist is a better bet than a specialist, and a specialist is better than a generalist. Depends on the schools banned of course. Illusion, conjuration, and abjuration not banned and you're good to go. Be a diviner and be even better off (this is why I use the GitP divination alternate).
Um, where was this proven?
Sinfire Titan
03-26-08, 05:26 PM Um, where was this proven?

Here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=953100&highlight=Specialist)
dman11235
03-27-08, 12:22 AM Dude, Abjuration is pretty strong. wiz 3/MS 10/IotSFV 7. Also the middle esoterica is really nice, and the rest of the abilities are nice too. The spell focus doesn't lend too much though, but that's spell focus. I am AFB though, so I can't remember what the minor and major esoterica are, and I can't remember the rest of the class. I do remember thinking that MS (abjuration) was pretty strong.

I did forget about transmutation. I get a palmface about that.
rjsilverthorn
03-27-08, 06:26 AM Dude, Abjuration is pretty strong. wiz 3/MS 10/IotSFV 7. Also the middle esoterica is really nice, and the rest of the abilities are nice too. The spell focus doesn't lend too much though, but that's spell focus. I am AFB though, so I can't remember what the minor and major esoterica are, and I can't remember the rest of the class. I do remember thinking that MS (abjuration) was pretty strong.

I did forget about transmutation. I get a palmface about that.

The major is the ability to cast personal spells at a range of touch (I believe) several times a day. I remember trying to figure out how to squeeze that in my war weaver build.
Sinfire Titan
03-28-08, 10:05 AM Dude, Abjuration is pretty strong. wiz 3/MS 10/IotSFV 7. Also the middle esoterica is really nice, and the rest of the abilities are nice too. The spell focus doesn't lend too much though, but that's spell focus. I am AFB though, so I can't remember what the minor and major esoterica are, and I can't remember the rest of the class. I do remember thinking that MS (abjuration) was pretty strong.

I did forget about transmutation. I get a palmface about that.

Mettle+Evasion, but only for a number of rounds equal to the level of the last Abjuration spell you cast. If you are playing an Abjurer, they won't even get that chance unless they beat you in the Init, and if that happens you won't have either of those two to fall back on. The Competence bonus to Dispel checks is nice though.

The major is the ability to cast personal spells at a range of touch (I believe) several times a day. I remember trying to figure out how to squeeze that in my war weaver build.

3/day. OK, but not good enough to tease you through what is normally a 4-level dip class.

Most of the abilities are pretty good. They shafted Evocation (as usual) and tried to make Enchantment playable (and still forgot about the key weakness of the school itself). But the ones that shine are Conjuration, Transmutation, Necromancy, Divination, and Illusion (for free metamagic augmentations).

I hate how useless the Minor is for Evocation. An Evoker is never going to need that Concentration check bonus if he knows what he is doing.
LSMFT
03-28-08, 04:14 PM Here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=953100&highlight=Specialist)
I didn’t read through the whole thing, but, his point seemed to be focused specialists are pretty good, not "better."

From looking at his argument, I came to the conclusion that he felt specialists get more spells per day. Focused even more. More spells is good. In addition, you can live without access to some schools. While interesting, and a very good analysis, nothing really groundbreaking was there, nor anything that would seem to constitute “proof” that specialists are better than generalists.

He and I seem to have quite different definitions of the word “versatility” and “potential.”
It might be interesting to look at versatility and potential after you’ve made your spell selection for the day, but by that same understanding of the terms, wizards, of all stripes, would be among the least versatile of ccasters. Both the generalist and the focused specialist might only be able to fill a spell-level’s slots with spells from 3 schools, but at prep time, I was picking from many, you from fewer. I had a wider array of options, and that’s versatility.

Generalists and specialists both have issues, the smaller number of slots for one, access to some spells for the other. Both have ways of dealing with their issues. It’s an apples-and-oranges comparison to say one is better than another.

______________
Getting into the Master specialist takes little that a specialized wizard probably would have anyway. Evokers, Illusionists, Enchanters all benefit from Spell Focus, and would probably take it anyway. Even conjurers take it for Augment Summoning. Only abjurers are totally shafted, and for them it is a prereq for IoS-FV.

Over ten levels, the Master Specialist gives up two wizard bonus feats, and gets two feats in return. Skill Focus, which is only really worth it if you are going archmage or another class that has it as a prereq, and Greater Spell Focus, which is of value to some specialists, e.g. enchanters, but not really for others, e.g. conjurers. For many, nice, but a loss.

It really amounts to the esoterica. Most specialists have at least one worth getting, some sooner than others, but compared to the opportunity costs for taking this class instead of some other PrC, meh.

I thought the point of the PrC, and it does do this quite well, was to add some real flavor to the specialist. Core, there is nothing that a specialist has or can do that a generalist can’t. You ended up being defined more by the schools you gave up than by the one you focused on. This PrC helps them to be special through specialization.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adonis1x23 03-23-08, 07:09 PM	Edit: Sorry I am an idiot
baronvonboxy 03-23-08, 07:15 PM	You don't need to give up a school for Master Specialist, you have to be a specialist wizard which makes you give up 2 schools other than Divination, or a diviner who only has to give up one school.
Adonis1x23 03-23-08, 07:23 PM	O ok, sorry must have read that wrong.
Lotus Crane 03-23-08, 10:52 PM	There are actually two things in Complete Mage: 1) The Focused Specialist alternate class feature makes you lose another school of magic for additional spells per day. 2) The Master Specialist prestige class does other stuff.
Adonis1x23 03-24-08, 01:58 AM	Ya, I know. The OP was about a focused specialist that becomes a Master Specialist, I got confused and added that feature to both in my mind.
Sinfire Titan 03-24-08, 01:53 PM	Sadly, some DMs think it is reasonable to make a Master Specialist ban another school of magic. Kindly show them the point of the PrC is to enter Archmage easily, and that a Focused Specialist who didn't choose Divination would be unable to enter Archmage if they had to ban a 4th school of magic. This logic always makes them rethink the flavor behind MS.
Gray Scholar 03-25-08, 01:29 PM	Sadly, some DMs think it is reasonable to make a Master Specialist ban another school of magic.I can see why they think so. In order to enter the Master Specialist class, does the specialist wizard give up anything? At all? I suppose there's familiar advancement, and possibly being forced to take Skill Focus (spellcraft) instead of a more freely chosen bonus feat, but if one is headed for archmage or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil anyway, it's not a waste. Are there other things I'm missing?
RobbyPants 03-25-08, 02:21 PM	I can see why they think so. In order to enter the Master Specialist class, does the specialist wizard give up anything? At all? I suppose there's familiar advancement, and possibly being forced to take Skill Focus (spellcraft) instead of a more freely chosen bonus feat, but if one is headed for archmage or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil anyway, it's not a waste. Are there other things I'm missing? Other than Spell Focus, no, you don't really give up anything. It's very easy to qualify for the PrC. My understanding is that it's to give people a reason to want to play a specialist in the first place. Normally, it's so much more benificial to play a generalist, so they made it an easy entry PrC.
dman11235 03-25-08, 05:44 PM	Except it's been proven that a focused specialist is a better bet than a specialist, and a specialist is better than a generalist. Depends on the schools banned of course. Illusion, conjuration, and abjuration not banned and you're good to go. Be a diviner and be even better off (this is why I use the GitP divination alternate).
Sinfire Titan 03-26-08, 04:53 PM	Except it's been proven that a focused specialist is a better bet than a specialist, and a specialist is better than a generalist. Depends on the schools banned of course. Illusion, conjuration, and abjuration not banned and you're good to go. Be a diviner and be even better off (this is why I use the GitP divination alternate). Transmutation>>>>Abjuration. And I'm not even counting Polymorph in this statement. But the idea goes Conjuration>Transmutation>Illusion>Abjuration>Necromancy>Divination>Evocation>Enchantment. Those are the schools to play, in order of which ones work the best if specialized in. I rank Illusion under Transmutation and Conjuration because I don't like spending a 4th or 8th level spell to duplicate a limited number of effects. But that is the order of power anyway, as Illusion is only broken with Shadowcraft Mage, and Trans/Conjuration is just broken at the get-go. I can see why they think so. In order to enter the Master Specialist class, does the specialist wizard give up anything? At all? I suppose there's familiar advancement, and possibly being forced to take Skill Focus (spellcraft) instead of a more freely chosen bonus feat, but if one is headed for archmage or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil anyway, it's not a waste. Are there other things I'm missing? The class was designed for easier entry into Archmage. And it was supposed to allow the Wizard to enter even with the Focused Specialist ACF. Adding in the extra school banned simply prevents them from doing so unless they are Diviners, which the Divination version of MS is crap. Of all of them, Conjuration/Necromancy/Illusion/Transmutation are the good ones. Enchantment, Abjuration, and Evocation are pretty damn weak.
LSMFT 03-26-08, 05:21 PM	Except it's been proven that a focused specialist is a better bet than a specialist, and a specialist is better than a generalist. Depends on the schools banned of course. Illusion, conjuration, and abjuration not banned and you're good to go. Be a diviner and be even better off (this is why I use the GitP divination alternate). Um, where was this proven?
Sinfire Titan 03-26-08, 05:26 PM	Um, where was this proven? Here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=953100&highlight=Specialist)
dman11235 03-27-08, 12:22 AM	Dude, Abjuration is pretty strong. wiz 3/MS 10/IotSFV 7. Also the middle esoterica is really nice, and the rest of the abilities are nice too. The spell focus doesn't lend too much though, but that's spell focus. I am AFB though, so I can't remember what the minor and major esoterica are, and I can't remember the rest of the class. I do remember thinking that MS (abjuration) was pretty strong. I did forget about transmutation. I get a palmface about that.
rjsilverthorn 03-27-08, 06:26 AM	Dude, Abjuration is pretty strong. wiz 3/MS 10/IotSFV 7. Also the middle esoterica is really nice, and the rest of the abilities are nice too. The spell focus doesn't lend too much though, but that's spell focus. I am AFB though, so I can't remember what the minor and major esoterica are, and I can't remember the rest of the class. I do remember thinking that MS (abjuration) was pretty strong. I did forget about transmutation. I get a palmface about that. The major is the ability to cast personal spells at a range of touch (I believe) several times a day. I remember trying to figure out how to squeeze that in my war weaver build.
Sinfire Titan 03-28-08, 10:05 AM	Dude, Abjuration is pretty strong. wiz 3/MS 10/IotSFV 7. Also the middle esoterica is really nice, and the rest of the abilities are nice too. The spell focus doesn't lend too much though, but that's spell focus. I am AFB though, so I can't remember what the minor and major esoterica are, and I can't remember the rest of the class. I do remember thinking that MS (abjuration) was pretty strong. I did forget about transmutation. I get a palmface about that. Mettle+Evasion, but only for a number of rounds equal to the level of the last Abjuration spell you cast. If you are playing an Abjurer, they won't even get that chance unless they beat you in the Init, and if that happens you won't have either of those two to fall back on. The Competence bonus to Dispel checks is nice though. The major is the ability to cast personal spells at a range of touch (I believe) several times a day. I remember trying to figure out how to squeeze that in my war weaver build. 3/day. OK, but not good enough to tease you through what is normally a 4-level dip class. Most of the abilities are pretty good. They shafted Evocation (as usual) and tried to make Enchantment playable (and still forgot about the key weakness of the school itself). But the ones that shine are Conjuration, Transmutation, Necromancy, Divination, and Illusion (for free metamagic augmentations). I hate how useless the Minor is for Evocation. An Evoker is never going to need that Concentration check bonus if he knows what he is doing.
LSMFT 03-28-08, 04:14 PM	Here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=953100&highlight=Specialist) I didn’t read through the whole thing, but, his point seemed to be focused specialists are pretty good, not "better." From looking at his argument, I came to the conclusion that he felt specialists get more spells per day. Focused even more. More spells is good. In addition, you can live without access to some schools. While interesting, and a very good analysis, nothing really groundbreaking was there, nor anything that would seem to constitute “proof” that specialists are better than generalists. He and I seem to have quite different definitions of the word “versatility” and “potential.” It might be interesting to look at versatility and potential after you’ve made your spell selection for the day, but by that same understanding of the terms, wizards, of all stripes, would be among the least versatile of ccasters. Both the generalist and the focused specialist might only be able to fill a spell-level’s slots with spells from 3 schools, but at prep time, I was picking from many, you from fewer. I had a wider array of options, and that’s versatility. Generalists and specialists both have issues, the smaller number of slots for one, access to some spells for the other. Both have ways of dealing with their issues. It’s an apples-and-oranges comparison to say one is better than another. ______________ Getting into the Master specialist takes little that a specialized wizard probably would have anyway. Evokers, Illusionists, Enchanters all benefit from Spell Focus, and would probably take it anyway. Even conjurers take it for Augment Summoning. Only abjurers are totally shafted, and for them it is a prereq for IoS-FV. Over ten levels, the Master Specialist gives up two wizard bonus feats, and gets two feats in return. Skill Focus, which is only really worth it if you are going archmage or another class that has it as a prereq, and Greater Spell Focus, which is of value to some specialists, e.g. enchanters, but not really for others, e.g. conjurers. For many, nice, but a loss. It really amounts to the esoterica. Most specialists have at least one worth getting, some sooner than others, but compared to the opportunity costs for taking this class instead of some other PrC, meh. I thought the point of the PrC, and it does do this quite well, was to add some real flavor to the specialist. Core, there is nothing that a specialist has or can do that a generalist can’t. You ended up being defined more by the schools you gave up than by the one you focused on. This PrC helps them to be special through specialization.