Master Specialist/Thaumaturgist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Master Specialist/Thaumaturgist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darth Sephiroth
10-15-07, 04:28 PM One of my players ended up needing a new character for a 12th level campaign. The problem is figuring out if his new build is legal. Wizard (Conjurer specialist from Unearthed Arcana) 2/Master Specialist 5/Thaumaturgist 5. He used the Precocious Apprentice feat to enter Master Specialist at 3rd level and then used the Expanded Spellbook feature to get Lesser Planar Ally as a spell he could cast.

I'd started wondering just how legal the build was.
LSMFT
10-15-07, 05:25 PM If not officially illegal, it is still highly questionable in two important ways, but you're his DM.

1) Does Precocious Apprentice mean you are "able to cast 2nd-level spells. You said yes. You didn't have to. He can't really cast them, can he?

2) Does the Expanded Spellbook allow you to learn spells from class-lists other than your own.
You said yes, but you didn't have too.
There are several other ways to get extra spells, like the Extra Spell feat, that officially don't allow you to go to another list. This is analogous. There are other examples where the ability to go to another list is explicitly allowed, and hence, if that were the case with the Master Specialist, it would say so.

Now, to the best of my knowledge, neither of these issues has been explicitly addressed anywhere official. So it is entirely with in your discretion. But I would never allow someone to do either of these things.
Marcus Majarra
10-15-07, 10:24 PM It's illegal on account of using Expanded Spellbook to learn a non-wizard spell. The ability stipulates that the spell must be of a level the Master Specialist can cast; lesser planar ally is on no level the conjurer can cast.
Wih
10-15-07, 10:26 PM Complete Arcane says that Precocious Apprentice (or any ability that gives you a spell or spell-like of a specific level) cannot be used to qualify for xth level spells.
CustServ's official ruling is that Extra Spell doesn't let you get something from another spelllist (which is silly, considering that the feat it's based on from Psionics does).
Marcus explained why Expanded Spellbook doesn't work.

The build is a nice idea, but RAW it doesn't work.
imakuni67
10-15-07, 11:21 PM Thaumaturgist isn't a great PRC to begin with. Conjurer 5/Master Specialist 5/whatever else would be the better build, freeing up that precocious apprentice feat for something else.
The_Shaman
10-16-07, 07:34 AM Ehh, I don't know. Planar ally can get you some decent allies, say a CR 12 Astral deva at cleric level 11. The leadership-esque ability and the contingent conjuration aren't half bad, either. However, as it requires knowledge of the 3 planar ally spells to be fully effective, I'd prefer to approach it with a PrC or class that gives all 3, say the Hathran PrC. Plus, having diplomacy as a class skill is useful for those PA discounts.
imakuni67
10-16-07, 10:08 AM Ehh, I don't know. Planar ally can get you some decent allies, say a CR 12 Astral deva at cleric level 11. The leadership-esque ability and the contingent conjuration aren't half bad, either. However, as it requires knowledge of the 3 planar ally spells to be fully effective, I'd prefer to approach it with a PrC or class that gives all 3, say the Hathran PrC. Plus, having diplomacy as a class skill is useful for those PA discounts.

But you are discussing cleric levels and divine spells, the original build is involving a wizard.
The_Shaman
10-16-07, 12:53 PM Yes, I am discussing a divine spell (3.5 Hathrans don't need both divine and arcane spells, thank goodness, the Cleric 11 was an example). The reason for it is because it's the spell and its derivatives that the Thaumaturgist PrC is based on: it's in the prerequisites, it's in the Improved Ally ability, and it's the source of the cohort gained through the Planar Cohort ability. It'd be like discussing the Barbarian class and not talking about its rage feature.
Darth Sephiroth
10-16-07, 05:07 PM I was trying to figure it out because it seemed wrong and wanted to know just where it was off. There are other methods to gain the Planar Ally spells (Arcane Disciple for instance).
vorpo
10-17-07, 12:00 AM One of my players ended up needing a new character for a 12th level campaign. The problem is figuring out if his new build is legal. Wizard (Conjurer specialist from Unearthed Arcana) 2/Master Specialist 5/Thaumaturgist 5. He used the Precocious Apprentice feat to enter Master Specialist at 3rd level and then used the Expanded Spellbook feature to get Lesser Planar Ally as a spell he could cast.

I'd started wondering just how legal the build was.

1) Precocious Apprentice will not allow him to become Master Specialist because the spell granted by that feat cannot be used to satisfy PrC's entry requirement

2) Expanded Spellbook should only allow you to gain spell of your chosen school from YOUR LIST. Therefore, planar ally is on the cleric's list, not wizards and thus cannot be obtained through expanded spellbook feature.

I was trying to figure it out because it seemed wrong and wanted to know just where it was off. There are other methods to gain the Planar Ally spells (Arcane Disciple for instance).

Arcane Disciple cannot be used to gain Planar Ally spells. That feat only allows you to gain DOMAIN spells and planar ally isn't one of them.
Marcus Majarra
10-17-07, 11:44 AM Arcane Disciple cannot be used to gain Planar Ally spells. That feat only allows you to gain DOMAIN spells and planar ally isn't one of them.
The Summoner domain from the Spell Compendium has all three planar ally spells.
vorpo
10-17-07, 01:11 PM The Summoner domain from the Spell Compendium has all three planar ally spells.

IC, I don't have SC
The_Shaman
10-17-07, 04:52 PM I don't know of any core ways. The Hathran (possibly Durthan) PrC was the one method I knew of - I don't have Spell Compendium anyway, and it's a heavily regional PrC from a setting book. Though what with the recent NWN 2 expansion, it may become rather popular.
Darth Sephiroth
10-18-07, 04:21 PM One thing, where is it listed that Expanded Spellbook has to be from your list. The book just says it has to be from your chosen school.
LSMFT
10-18-07, 05:03 PM Wih said he got his answer from CustServe. I don’t think CustServe is any more reliable because I coincidentally agree with them in this case though.

The fact is, there is nothing to suggest that it can come from another list. When it can come from another list (see the similar ability of the Unseen Seer) it specifically says so.

Until it is addressed in an errata or FAQ, it's all just someone's opinion as far as I'm concerned. And this issue as of yet hasn't been addressed in either.

But, opinions not withstanding, there is nothing in the text of Expanded Spellbook that even hints that the rules for what types of spells you can learn are being overridden here. In cases where that rule is overridden, if very specifically and explicitly says so. I wouldn't have allowed it.
Wih
10-18-07, 07:47 PM While CustServ may not be the most reliable, they give that answer for Extra Spell any time and every time someone asks - it's not just myself. I have a feeling it's something that comes up a lot and they drilled into their staff.
Marcus Majarra
10-18-07, 09:52 PM One thing, where is it listed that Expanded Spellbook has to be from your list. The book just says it has to be from your chosen school.
It also has to be on a level that the Master Specialist can cast. Clr 4 is not a level the Master Specialist can cast. The only thing the Expanded Spellbook class feature does is grant you extra spells to your spellbook, as wizards normally receive when they level up, except that these spells must be from the Specialist's school.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darth Sephiroth 10-15-07, 04:28 PM	One of my players ended up needing a new character for a 12th level campaign. The problem is figuring out if his new build is legal. Wizard (Conjurer specialist from Unearthed Arcana) 2/Master Specialist 5/Thaumaturgist 5. He used the Precocious Apprentice feat to enter Master Specialist at 3rd level and then used the Expanded Spellbook feature to get Lesser Planar Ally as a spell he could cast. I'd started wondering just how legal the build was.
LSMFT 10-15-07, 05:25 PM	If not officially illegal, it is still highly questionable in two important ways, but you're his DM. 1) Does Precocious Apprentice mean you are "able to cast 2nd-level spells. You said yes. You didn't have to. He can't really cast them, can he? 2) Does the Expanded Spellbook allow you to learn spells from class-lists other than your own. You said yes, but you didn't have too. There are several other ways to get extra spells, like the Extra Spell feat, that officially don't allow you to go to another list. This is analogous. There are other examples where the ability to go to another list is explicitly allowed, and hence, if that were the case with the Master Specialist, it would say so. Now, to the best of my knowledge, neither of these issues has been explicitly addressed anywhere official. So it is entirely with in your discretion. But I would never allow someone to do either of these things.
Marcus Majarra 10-15-07, 10:24 PM	It's illegal on account of using Expanded Spellbook to learn a non-wizard spell. The ability stipulates that the spell must be of a level the Master Specialist can cast; lesser planar ally is on no level the conjurer can cast.
Wih 10-15-07, 10:26 PM	Complete Arcane says that Precocious Apprentice (or any ability that gives you a spell or spell-like of a specific level) cannot be used to qualify for xth level spells. CustServ's official ruling is that Extra Spell doesn't let you get something from another spelllist (which is silly, considering that the feat it's based on from Psionics does). Marcus explained why Expanded Spellbook doesn't work. The build is a nice idea, but RAW it doesn't work.
imakuni67 10-15-07, 11:21 PM	Thaumaturgist isn't a great PRC to begin with. Conjurer 5/Master Specialist 5/whatever else would be the better build, freeing up that precocious apprentice feat for something else.
The_Shaman 10-16-07, 07:34 AM	Ehh, I don't know. Planar ally can get you some decent allies, say a CR 12 Astral deva at cleric level 11. The leadership-esque ability and the contingent conjuration aren't half bad, either. However, as it requires knowledge of the 3 planar ally spells to be fully effective, I'd prefer to approach it with a PrC or class that gives all 3, say the Hathran PrC. Plus, having diplomacy as a class skill is useful for those PA discounts.
imakuni67 10-16-07, 10:08 AM	Ehh, I don't know. Planar ally can get you some decent allies, say a CR 12 Astral deva at cleric level 11. The leadership-esque ability and the contingent conjuration aren't half bad, either. However, as it requires knowledge of the 3 planar ally spells to be fully effective, I'd prefer to approach it with a PrC or class that gives all 3, say the Hathran PrC. Plus, having diplomacy as a class skill is useful for those PA discounts. But you are discussing cleric levels and divine spells, the original build is involving a wizard.
The_Shaman 10-16-07, 12:53 PM	Yes, I am discussing a divine spell (3.5 Hathrans don't need both divine and arcane spells, thank goodness, the Cleric 11 was an example). The reason for it is because it's the spell and its derivatives that the Thaumaturgist PrC is based on: it's in the prerequisites, it's in the Improved Ally ability, and it's the source of the cohort gained through the Planar Cohort ability. It'd be like discussing the Barbarian class and not talking about its rage feature.
Darth Sephiroth 10-16-07, 05:07 PM	I was trying to figure it out because it seemed wrong and wanted to know just where it was off. There are other methods to gain the Planar Ally spells (Arcane Disciple for instance).
vorpo 10-17-07, 12:00 AM	One of my players ended up needing a new character for a 12th level campaign. The problem is figuring out if his new build is legal. Wizard (Conjurer specialist from Unearthed Arcana) 2/Master Specialist 5/Thaumaturgist 5. He used the Precocious Apprentice feat to enter Master Specialist at 3rd level and then used the Expanded Spellbook feature to get Lesser Planar Ally as a spell he could cast. I'd started wondering just how legal the build was. 1) Precocious Apprentice will not allow him to become Master Specialist because the spell granted by that feat cannot be used to satisfy PrC's entry requirement 2) Expanded Spellbook should only allow you to gain spell of your chosen school from YOUR LIST. Therefore, planar ally is on the cleric's list, not wizards and thus cannot be obtained through expanded spellbook feature. I was trying to figure it out because it seemed wrong and wanted to know just where it was off. There are other methods to gain the Planar Ally spells (Arcane Disciple for instance). Arcane Disciple cannot be used to gain Planar Ally spells. That feat only allows you to gain DOMAIN spells and planar ally isn't one of them.
Marcus Majarra 10-17-07, 11:44 AM	Arcane Disciple cannot be used to gain Planar Ally spells. That feat only allows you to gain DOMAIN spells and planar ally isn't one of them. The Summoner domain from the Spell Compendium has all three planar ally spells.
vorpo 10-17-07, 01:11 PM	The Summoner domain from the Spell Compendium has all three planar ally spells. IC, I don't have SC
The_Shaman 10-17-07, 04:52 PM	I don't know of any core ways. The Hathran (possibly Durthan) PrC was the one method I knew of - I don't have Spell Compendium anyway, and it's a heavily regional PrC from a setting book. Though what with the recent NWN 2 expansion, it may become rather popular.
Darth Sephiroth 10-18-07, 04:21 PM	One thing, where is it listed that Expanded Spellbook has to be from your list. The book just says it has to be from your chosen school.
LSMFT 10-18-07, 05:03 PM	Wih said he got his answer from CustServe. I don’t think CustServe is any more reliable because I coincidentally agree with them in this case though. The fact is, there is nothing to suggest that it can come from another list. When it can come from another list (see the similar ability of the Unseen Seer) it specifically says so. Until it is addressed in an errata or FAQ, it's all just someone's opinion as far as I'm concerned. And this issue as of yet hasn't been addressed in either. But, opinions not withstanding, there is nothing in the text of Expanded Spellbook that even hints that the rules for what types of spells you can learn are being overridden here. In cases where that rule is overridden, if very specifically and explicitly says so. I wouldn't have allowed it.
Wih 10-18-07, 07:47 PM	While CustServ may not be the most reliable, they give that answer for Extra Spell any time and every time someone asks - it's not just myself. I have a feeling it's something that comes up a lot and they drilled into their staff.
Marcus Majarra 10-18-07, 09:52 PM	One thing, where is it listed that Expanded Spellbook has to be from your list. The book just says it has to be from your chosen school. It also has to be on a level that the Master Specialist can cast. Clr 4 is not a level the Master Specialist can cast. The only thing the Expanded Spellbook class feature does is grant you extra spells to your spellbook, as wizards normally receive when they level up, except that these spells must be from the Specialist's school.