Moon Guardian (CDiv online bonus): Why the Poor Will Save? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Moon Guardian (CDiv online bonus): Why the Poor Will Save? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CharlesCurtisStanley
06-03-07, 08:19 PM I'm researching how to complicate my PCs lives through lycanthropy, and I've encountered several prestige classes relevant thereunto.

One example is the Moon Guardian, found in the Complete Divine bonus material; it's open to good-aligned afflicted lycanthropes capable of casting low-level divine spells. (The stated requirement is 3rd-level, but the adaptation section says this can be adjusted to accommodate the relevant character.)

The main thing that bothers me about this PrC is that it has good Fort and Ref saves, but a poor Will save. Given that Control Shape is a Wis skill, and that making ever-more-difficult Will saves is what lets an afflicted lycanthrope stave off the inevitable transition to NPC-dom, wouldn't a good Will save be one of the key features of this class? Yet the Will save bonus is +0 until the class's 3rd level (of five) and only +1 thereafter.

So, did the authors miss something here, or am I overlooking the point?
Lotus Crane
06-03-07, 09:43 PM So, did the authors miss something here, or am I overlooking the point?
Well, some design decisions are based on the need for class balance (whether or not anybody knows what balance is, is multiple topics unto itself), rather than what you might think makes sense from a purely flavor perspective. Famous examples include the paladin having a poor Will save, the hexblade having a poor Fort save, and the spellthief having a poor Ref save (of course, those classes all turned out to be underpowered anyway, but at the time, the authors decided to err on the conservative side). The Moon Guardian is probably the same way.

Designer A: Do you think the Moon Guardian might be overpowered?
Designer B: Hmm, maybe. Where can we cut corners... how about lowering the Will save?
Designer A: That doesn't make much sense roleplaying-wise, does it?
Designer B: Probably not, but mechanically I think it hurts them the least. Lycanthropes automatically get a Wisdom increase and the Iron Will feat, and because Moon Guardians advance divine spellcasting, any potential candidates will have prioritized Wis as their main ability score anyway.
Designer A: Good point. After all, our secret dark lord Lotus Crane dictates that mechanics>flavor!

...okay, so that last line was wishful thinking. ^_~
CharlesCurtisStanley
06-03-07, 09:58 PM Designer A: Do you think the Moon Guardian might be overpowered?
Designer B: Hmm, maybe. Where can we cut corners... how about lowering the Will save?
Designer A: That doesn't make much sense roleplaying-wise, does it?
Designer B: Probably not, but mechanically I think it hurts them the least. Lycanthropes automatically get a Wisdom increase and the Iron Will feat, and because Moon Guardians advance divine spellcasting, any potential candidates will have prioritized Wis as their main ability score anyway.
Designer A: Good point.

Designer B: Hey, wait; Rangers are divine spellcasters, too, but they get poor Will saves. And since their spellcasting is at most a secondary feature of the class, they won't have Wis as a primary ability.
Designer A: Sucks to be them, I guess. :rolleyes:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CharlesCurtisStanley 06-03-07, 08:19 PM	I'm researching how to complicate my PCs lives through lycanthropy, and I've encountered several prestige classes relevant thereunto. One example is the Moon Guardian, found in the Complete Divine bonus material; it's open to good-aligned afflicted lycanthropes capable of casting low-level divine spells. (The stated requirement is 3rd-level, but the adaptation section says this can be adjusted to accommodate the relevant character.) The main thing that bothers me about this PrC is that it has good Fort and Ref saves, but a poor Will save. Given that Control Shape is a Wis skill, and that making ever-more-difficult Will saves is what lets an afflicted lycanthrope stave off the inevitable transition to NPC-dom, wouldn't a good Will save be one of the key features of this class? Yet the Will save bonus is +0 until the class's 3rd level (of five) and only +1 thereafter. So, did the authors miss something here, or am I overlooking the point?
Lotus Crane 06-03-07, 09:43 PM	So, did the authors miss something here, or am I overlooking the point? Well, some design decisions are based on the need for class balance (whether or not anybody knows what balance is, is multiple topics unto itself), rather than what you might think makes sense from a purely flavor perspective. Famous examples include the paladin having a poor Will save, the hexblade having a poor Fort save, and the spellthief having a poor Ref save (of course, those classes all turned out to be underpowered anyway, but at the time, the authors decided to err on the conservative side). The Moon Guardian is probably the same way. Designer A: Do you think the Moon Guardian might be overpowered? Designer B: Hmm, maybe. Where can we cut corners... how about lowering the Will save? Designer A: That doesn't make much sense roleplaying-wise, does it? Designer B: Probably not, but mechanically I think it hurts them the least. Lycanthropes automatically get a Wisdom increase and the Iron Will feat, and because Moon Guardians advance divine spellcasting, any potential candidates will have prioritized Wis as their main ability score anyway. Designer A: Good point. After all, our secret dark lord Lotus Crane dictates that mechanics>flavor! ...okay, so that last line was wishful thinking. ^_~
CharlesCurtisStanley 06-03-07, 09:58 PM	Designer A: Do you think the Moon Guardian might be overpowered? Designer B: Hmm, maybe. Where can we cut corners... how about lowering the Will save? Designer A: That doesn't make much sense roleplaying-wise, does it? Designer B: Probably not, but mechanically I think it hurts them the least. Lycanthropes automatically get a Wisdom increase and the Iron Will feat, and because Moon Guardians advance divine spellcasting, any potential candidates will have prioritized Wis as their main ability score anyway. Designer A: Good point. Designer B: Hey, wait; Rangers are divine spellcasters, too, but they get poor Will saves. And since their spellcasting is at most a secondary feature of the class, they won't have Wis as a primary ability. Designer A: Sucks to be them, I guess. :rolleyes: