Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ertai Planeswalker 06-05-07, 05:48 PM	When you look at the Eldritch Disciple, Eldritch Theurge and the Ultimate Magus, then you see prc's that combine two casters and get additional abilities to increase the synergy between these classes. (I believe Arcane Hierophant is another example becasue from what i've heard it increases both wiz/sor as well as druid casterlevels, and improves the familiar/companion too, but i have not seen it so i cannot base my arguments on it.) Seeing these, i must conclude that the Mystic Theurge is underpowered, and could use a few abilities to make it on par with the rest of the classes that combine two spellcasting classes. For example, the MT could allow the MT levels to count as cleric levels in regard to turning, and wizard levels in regard to familiar progression. How do you guys feel about this?
windscar18 06-05-07, 05:52 PM	I think the problem is that Mystic Theurge has ridiculous requirements compared to the Ultimate Magus. The Ultimate Magus' abilities are reasonable (with the exception of the metamagic thing that allows you to sacrifice different spell slots: that's just crazy), but they contain a huge amount of overlap, so there's really not much net gain, which is quite different from Cleric and Wizard multiclass which cover a huge roles. Like the wizards designer said in his Hexblade fix: Things that came early in the 3.5 cycle that they thought were overpowered turned out to be underpowered. Perhaps make the requirement level 1 divine/level 2 arcane or level 1 arcane/level 1 divine?
Encard 06-05-07, 09:59 PM	Frankly, I think MT could use a bit more than that - maybe something similar to the Geomancer's ability to take the best quality of arcane or divine spells for a spell level he knows both in. Alternately, perhaps allowing the character to burn arcane spell slots for healing or extra domain power uses. You might even be able to just steal some of the other dual caster's abilities.
Eldritch_Lord 06-05-07, 10:15 PM	The underlying theory for giving so many theurgic classes extra abilities is that some magic systems are seen as underpowered. Warlocks, incarnates, shadowcasters, binders--all are weaker and/or less versatile than full spellcasters, getting few invocations, less-powerful constant effects, few per-day abilities, or inflexible "chunks" of power respectively, so of course they're so weak they need compensation. However, clerics, druids, sorcerers, and wizards are considered to be the "be-all" and "end-all" of magical might because there are so many spells and so much support for them, and they are widely seen as the best classes, so eveyone thinks having arcane and divine casting is too much, regardless of the fact that you're levels behind and only have so many actions to use.:rant: [/rant] Sorry, had to get that out of my system. (Go mystic theurges!) I don't think burning arcane slots for healing or swapping class abilities would be good, because that would make the geomancer obsolete; however, counting arcane levels for turning and divine for familiars is a good idea, because there is a precedent for feats that allow combining class levels to determine abilities. One of many fixes I have contemplated, but haven't been able to test, is to allow the character to switch which classes' spell slots they use when preparing spells, with some limitations; for example, a cleric/wizard MT with the Death domain might be able to prepare wizard save-or-dies in his cleric slots, maybe a level or two higher than normal, and a conjurer/cleric MT might be able to prepare planar ally et al in wizard slots. Again, not tested, but you might like it.
RobbyPants 06-06-07, 01:41 PM	One other thing I've noticed about the PrCs that give bonues: they don't give full +1 caster level to both classes at all 10 levels. The Ultimate Magus loses out on three levles. The Eldritch Disciple loses out on one. The True Necromancer loses out on four. Basically, it looks like these special abilities come at a steep cost: precious caster levels. So if you want a MT that stacks levels with cleric for turn undead, and advances your familiar (or whatever), you'll probably lose out one one or two caster levels.
Ertai Planeswalker 06-06-07, 06:32 PM	Imo, a spellcaster cannot afford to lose more then two casterlevels over 20 levels. MT requires that you can cast 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells. That means that at 6th level, you have casterlevel 3 in either class. So while a full caster is already throwing around 3D8+6 healing spells and 6D6 fireballs, you are stuch with 2D8+3 healing and 4D6 fire vs 1 target if you hit (Scorching Ray). The casterlevel hit is very frontloaded. A possible fix to this would be to simplify the entry requirements, but give MT a halfdead level too, like this: Prerequisites: Knowledge Arcana 6 ranks, Knowledge Religion 6 ranks, ability to cast 1st level arcane spells, ability to cast 1st level divine spells. (So a Wiz2/Clr1 can enter) Then make MT 1-4 give a casterlevel increase to both classes, MT5 only to the class with the lowest casterlevel, and then MT 6-10 to both classes again. That means the casterlevel loss is only 1 up to level 7, and two starting level 8. That way, the casterlevel penalties are less front loaded thus balancing an MT more across levels.
RobbyPants 06-07-07, 02:41 PM	Of course, then you have the choice of sacrificing just a few levels in your "primary" class to gain nine levels in another "secondary" class, with is much more powerful. It's a lot like the Ultimate Magus "caster level trick." I think it would make it almost too attractive.
lint trap 06-07-07, 02:59 PM	I think throwing in 2 to 3 bonus feats wouldn't be out of line.
Ertai Planeswalker 06-07-07, 06:30 PM	Of course, then you have the choice of sacrificing just a few levels in your "primary" class to gain nine levels in another "secondary" class, with is much more powerful. It's a lot like the Ultimate Magus "caster level trick." I think it would make it almost too attractive. I don't think so. Level 8 and up you're one full spell level behind a full caster. And you're probably handicapped by casting from two different spellcasting stats, so a single caster probably has higher DC's as well. That said, the MT as is is simply not an option for spontaneous casters. Using my above fix, it could be. If you want to be a spontaneous casting MT under the current rules, you get 3rd level spells at lvl 10... one level before a single casting wizard has 6th level spells. With my fix, a Sor2/FS1 can enter the class, and gain 3rd level spells at lvl8 and thus be only one spell level behind, just like a 'normal' caster. I think throwing in 2 to 3 bonus feats wouldn't be out of line. Using my fix to make it easier to enter it would be imo.
Empiro 06-07-07, 06:59 PM	I think the 3 level gap is a fair price to pay for being able to cast both divine and arcane spells. The PrC is designed to be a support caster, and I think that not having at least a 3 level gap makes it step too much on the toes of the primary caster. You can be an archivist/wizard if you want to keep Int as the primary casting stat. The only change I'd really make is to allow the PrC to go up to 14 levels, since the most common complaint seems to be that you lose out on level 9 spells.
teshen 06-07-07, 07:45 PM	Just to give some of the previous ideas a face... The hit dice could be advanced to d6. Add a class feature that allows the advancement of an aspect of a previous class... like a familiar or turn undead, as a previous poster suggested. It could be called Continued training or some such. Spell power could be added once or twice. A few minor abilities could pop up at a few levels, and they could be like a lore master's secrets... one could be an ability to ignore 5% of arcane spell failure (could be taken multiple times). One could be the ability to use a divine focus in place of spell components. One could be the ability to spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells from your arcane slots. One could bestow the celestial(good)/infernal(evil)/axiomatic(lawful)/?(chaotic) to your familiar, depending on the god you worship. There is a lot of other possiblities... but this are the ones that have been mentioned so far. As an example... Lv BaB Fort Ref Will Features Spells 1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Continued training +1 arcane level/+1 divine level 2 +1 +0 +0 +3 +1 arcane level/+1 divine level 3 +1 +1 +1 +3 +1 arcane level/+1 divine level 4 +2 +1 +1 +4 Mystic study +1 arcane level/+1 divine level 5 +2 +1 +1 +4 +1 arcane level/+1 divine level 6 +3 +2 +2 +5 +1 arcane level/+1 divine level 7 +3 +2 +2 +5 Mystic study +1 arcane level/+1 divine level 8 +4 +2 +2 +6 +1 arcane level/+1 divine level 9 +4 +3 +3 +6 +1 arcane level/+1 divine level 10 +5 +3 +3 +7 Spell Power +1 +1 arcane level/+1 divine level Continued training A mystic theurge focuses on an aspect of his former training and incorporates that into his new outlook on magic. He may pick a single ability from the following list. Enemy of death: If a divine caster has the ability to turn or rebuke undead, levels in mystic theurge stack for purposes of advancing the turn/rebuke undead ability. Kindred souls: If an arcane caster had a familiar, before becoming a mystic theurge, he may now count levels in mystic theurge for the purpose of advancing his familiar. Unlocked essence: If an arcane caster had the spell secret ability, he may now count his levels in mystic theurge to determine when he would acquire additional spell secrets. He must also select a new taboo when he selects a new spell secret. He may also choose to apply spell secrets to divine spells. Natural friendship: If a divine caster had an animal companion before becoming a mystic, theurge, he may now count levels in mystic theurge for the purpose of advancing his animal companion. Mystic study Through meditation and study, a mystic theurge can unlock abilities that play to his strengths. Whenever a mystic theurge gains a mystic study feature (at level 4 and 7) he can choose one of the following abilities. Armored casting: A mystic theurge can, through his familiarity with armor, ignore some of the penalties associated with casting in armor. He ignores 5% of arcane spell failure associated with any armor with which he is proficient. This ability may be taken more than once. Prayerful focus: A mystic theurge can, through his faith, cast spells without the normal materials needed. His divine focus for his divine spells may substitute for any mundane arcane spell component or mundane arcane focus. Arcane healing: A mystic theurge may spontaneously convert arcane spells into cure/inflict spells, depending on his alignment. Transformation of the faithful: As a symbol of the connection between his arcane knowledge and his divine beliefs, his familiar becomes an avatar of sorts. The character may apply a single template to his familiar for free. The template's alignment must match at least one of the axis of his diety's alignment. Spell Power This ability increases the mystic theurge's effective caster level by +1 (for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks only).