Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 02-23-08, 02:47 PM	Okay, the idea here is to resolve a dilemma for clerics. Namely, what if you want to be a warrior-type cleric, but you don't want to use the cheesy divine metamagic (persistent spell) combination, you want to be better at fighting than a normal okay-but-mediocre-at-combat cleric, and you don't serve a deity with a specific prestige class that would help you (such as Hextor going into Ordained Champion)? Warpriest could have done it, but... didn't. The idea here is a sort of clerical eldritch knight, in other words. Basically, the idea to tell a cleric player interested in divine metamagic (persistent spell) "no, I'm not allowing that, but if you want to be better at combat than a typical cleric (albeit at the cost of some casting), here's a class that's hopefully solid but not overpowered for that purpose." MUJAHID "Even if Kord did not grant me his magical gifts, I would still fight for him with every muscle in my body -- with greatsword, with bow, and with my bare fists if need be." -- Harbuk, Mujahid of Kord Mujahideen are divine spellcasters who undergo more rigorous combat training than most. Usually, they serve war deities, like Corellon Larethian, Gruumsh, Heironeous, and Hextor. However, servants of all deities, or even divine spellcasters unaffiliated with a deity, are capable of becoming mujahideen. Clerics are common mujahideen, but favored souls make up a disproportiate fraction of them. Archivists, adepts, druids, spirit shamans, and shugenja are rare, but not unheard of, as mujahideen. Sufficiently high-level rangers and paladins are capable of becoming mujahideen without even multiclassing, but they find little appeal in the class. Hit die: d10 Requirements: Base Attack Bonus: +4 Weapon proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons. Spells: Able to cast 3rd level divine spells Feats: Must have gained at least three feats that can be taken as fighter bonus feats, whether these are actually obtained from fighter levels or not. Class Skills The mujahid's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (con), Climb (str), Craft (int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (cha), Jump (str), Knowledge (religion) (int), Profession (wis), Ride (dex), Spellcraft (int), and Swim (str) Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + int modifier Table: the Mujahid Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per Day 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus Feat - 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Battle training +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Hardened +1 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 6 +6 +5 +2 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 7 +7 +5 +2 +2 Hardened +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 8 +8 +6 +2 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 9 +9 +6 +3 +3 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Domain +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Class Features All of the following are class features of the mujahid prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Mujahideen gain no proficiency with weapons or armor. Bonus Feat: At 1st level, a mujahid gains a bonus feat selected from the list of fighter bonus feats. Spells per Day: At every level except 1st, a mujahid gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a mujahid, she must decide to which class she adds each level of mujahid for the purpose of determining spells per day. Battle Training: Starting at 3rd level, a mujahid may treat herself as having a fighter level equal to her mujahid level - 2 for the purpose of qualifying for fighter-only feats. If she has levels of fighter, or any other class granting effective fighter levels for the purpose of feat qualification (such as warblade), all such sources stack. Hardened (ex): Heightened awareness and mental discipline improve a mujahid's reflexes and will saves: a mujahid gains a +1 bonus to reflex and will saves at level 4. At level 7, the bonuses increase to +2. Bonus Domain: At tenth level, a mujahid gains a bonus domain. The domain must, as its granted power, grant a bonus feat that may be taken as a fighter bonus feat. (Domains fitting this requirement include darkness, elf, metal, shadow, time, and war.) Hit die: d10 Requirements: Base Attack Bonus: +4 Weapon proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons. Spells: Able to cast magic vestment as a divine spell Feats: Must have gained at least three feats that can be taken as fighter bonus feats, whether these are actually obtained from fighter levels or not. Class Skills: Concentration (con), Climb (str), Craft (int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (cha), Jump (str), Knowledge (religion) (int), Profession (wis), Ride (dex), Spellcraft (int), and Swim (str) Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + int modifier Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per Day Extra Spell Known 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 War Psyche +1, - Acid Splash Expanded Spell List 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class True Strike 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Barkskin 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Good Hope 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Fire Shield 6 +6 +5 +2 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Greater Heroism 7 +7 +5 +2 +2 War Psyche +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Bigby's Forceful Hand 8 +8 +6 +2 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Mordenkainen's Sword 9 +9 +6 +3 +3 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Iron Body 10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Crushing Hand Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Mujahideen gain no proficiency with weapons or armor. War Psyche (ex): At 1st level, the mujahid gains a finely-honed sense of awareness, quickness of thought, understanding of magical protection, and mental toughness, gaining a +1 bonus on reflex and will saves, as well as to the bonus to AC granted by divine spells which increase AC, such as shield of faith, magic vestment, cloak of chaos, etc. At 7th level, the bonus increases to +2. Expanded Spell List: At each level, a mujahid adds on extra spell to the list of a divine spellcasting class to which she belonged before gaining that level of mujahid. For instance, the mujahid adds acid splash to her list of level 0 spells at 1st level, truestrike to her list of level 1 spells at 2nd level, and so on. If the mujahid belongs to more than one divine spellcasting class, she adds the spell to the same class as the one whose casting level is increased at that level, with the exception of acid splash at first level (when she gains no divine spellcasting progression), in which case she adds it to any of the divine spellcasting classes to which she belongs. Mujahid Level Spell Level Spell 1 0 Acid Splash 2 1 True strike 3 2 Barkskin 4 3 Good Hope 5 4 Fire Shield 6 5 Greater Heroism 7 6 Bigby's Forceful Hand 8 7 Mordenkainen's Sword 9 8 Iron Body 10 9 Crushing Hand If the mujahid belongs to a class with a fixed number of spells known, such as a spontaneous spellcasting class, she automatically gains these spells as spells known when she has both sufficient spellcasting to cast spells of that level and sufficient mujahid levels to have the spell added to her class list. Spells per Day: At every level except 1st, a mujahid gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a mujahid, she must decide to which class she adds each level of mujahid for the purpose of determining spells per day. Bonus Feat: At 4th and 10th levels, a mujahid gains a bonus feat selected from the list of fighter bonus feats. The Mujahid "Even if Kord did not grant me his magical gifts, I would still fight for him with every muscle in my body -- with greatsword, with bow, and with my bare fists if need be." -- Harbuk, Mujahid of Kord Mujahideen are divine spellcasters who undergo more rigorous combat training than most. Usually, they serve war deities, like Kord, Heironeous, and Hextor. However, servants of all deities, or even divine spellcasters unaffiliated with a deity, are capable of becoming mujahideen. Clerics are common mujahideen, but favored souls make up a disproportiate fraction of them. Archivists and druids are rare, but not unheard of, as mujahideen. Hit die: d10 Requirements: Weapon proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons. Spells: Able to cast 3rd level divine spells Feats: Must have gained at least three feats that can be taken as fighter bonus feats, whether these are actually obtained from fighter levels or not. Class Skills: Concentration (con), Climb (str), Craft (int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (cha), Jump (str), Knowledge (religion) (int), Profession (wis), Ride (dex), Spellcraft (int), and Swim (str) Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + int modifier Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per Day 1 +1 +2 +2 +0 Bonus Feat - 2 +2 +3 +3 +0 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 3 +3 +3 +3 +1 Battle trained +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 4 +4 +4 +4 +1 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 5 +5 +4 +4 +1 Bonus Feat +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 6 +6 +5 +5 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 7 +7 +5 +5 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 8 +8 +6 +6 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 9 +9 +6 +6 +3 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 10 +10 +7 +7 +3 Bonus Feat +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Mujahideen gain no proficiency with weapons or armor. Bonus Feat: At 1st, 5th, and 10th levels, a mujahid gains a bonus feat selected from the list of fighter bonus feats. Spells per Day: At every level except 1st, a mujahid gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a mujahid, she must decide to which class she adds each level of mujahid for the purpose of determining spells per day. Battle-trained: At 3rd level and higher, a mujahid may treat herself as having a fighter level equal to her mujahid level - 2 for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of any fighter-only feats. Her effective fighter level from mujahid stacks with actual fighter levels, and with effective fighter levels from other sources, such as warblade levels. UPDATE: Got rid of the pointless examples of fighter bonus feats. UPDATE 2: Copied the stuff from post #39 to the front page -- sblocked off the old version. UPDATE 3: Made a 3rd version -- I wasn't pleased with some of the earlier revisions, so this has some things that go back to the earlier version (getting rid of the magic vestment requirement to allow druids to qualify, allowing high mujahid levels to count as fighter levels, etc).
teshen 02-23-08, 03:19 PM	The premise is sound, I suppose. Especially with eldritch knight as a template. However, since divine casters are already stronger than their arcane counterparts, why not just say no to the divine metamagic and let them cast their spells as they go into combat instead of giving them almost the same effect by prc? The way the designers thought it would be done... I mean Human Fighter 1/Cleric 5/Mujahid 10 is going to have a base attack of two less than a Cleric 16, an average of 11 hit points more, better at getting out of the way of reflex save trouble, and be two casting levels behind (which is somewhat mitigated by practiced caster). It's almost as if they already have cast divine power, and they still can for some extra hitpoints and strength boost (although it would be a bad use of a fourth level spell in this case). And that's not even a good comparison because most will be cleric 5/prc x. I guess the problem I'm having is that a cleric is already somewhat of a gish, moreso than arcane casters that, thanks to bad everything except casting, have to try to be melee worthy.
JulesCARV 02-23-08, 03:45 PM	Fair points, although I suppose my view is that precisely because most arcanists are so bad at combat, while clerics are already semi-decent, clerics have less to gain. Eldritch knight 10 is 5 points of base attack bonus ahead of sorcerer 10. Mujahid 10, on the other hand, is only 2.5 points of base attack bonus ahead of cleric 10.
EvilVegan 02-23-08, 04:05 PM	Odd thing to note, with those prerequisites a cleric 6/RSoP1 could get into this class. I think that's more a problem with RSoP getting proficiency in all martial weapons as a class feature. Yet another example of how pelor is an evil war god. (Or am I getting it confused with another PrC? There's a full caster PrC in CD that gains all martial weapons). Otherwise this class is much better than warpriest. Better as in "better balanced" and "fits flavor more" than warpriest. Mild suggestions (it's really solid as is): Domain requirements - Not all clerics would really take this class. Domains would help limit this thematically. War is the obvious requirement, but I wouldn't make it the only one. Good Will/Ref. The class is designed to have 2 dips into Good fort classes (fighter/cleric is the easiest) before it is taken, giving it 1/2 level +6 to fort saves. If it is good will/ref it would be 1/2 level +4 to fort and will, +2 to reflex (very roughly).
JulesCARV 02-23-08, 06:43 PM	Domain requirements - Not all clerics would really take this class. Domains would help limit this thematically. War is the obvious requirement, but I wouldn't make it the only one. Domains which give fighter bonus feats (war, elf, metal, shadow, time) already make it easier. Domain requirements -- I don't like the idea. For one thing, it would close favored souls off from becoming mujahideen entirely, for one thing (unless they got domains through becoming contemplatives at 24th level or somesuch), and I definitely think this class should be open to favored souls. Good Will/Ref. The class is designed to have 2 dips into Good fort classes (fighter/cleric is the easiest) before it is taken, giving it 1/2 level +6 to fort saves. If it is good will/ref it would be 1/2 level +4 to fort and will, +2 to reflex (very roughly). Hmm... interesting. That could work. It seems somehow weird for this class to have a poor fortitude save, but then again, the knight is a d12-hit die front-liner class with a poor fortitude save. Then again, I'm inclined to say that UA fractional BAB/saves are better anyway. I might just implement the good reflex/will bit, but I'm not quite sure. I'll consider it, at any rate.
StevenO 02-23-08, 07:52 PM	Lets look at the score: Gives up (vs. Cleric): Two casting levels (unless other method used to gain All Martial Weapons including somewhat cheesy 3.5 Militia feat in PGtFR), advancing Turning Power. Gains: First level class benefits used to meet Martial Weapon requirement (fighter feat, barbarian speed, ect.), THREE bonus Fighter Feats, bigger HD, Good REF save, slight BAB improvement. If you consider that the Cleric is already consider a great fighting class I think you are giving it too much. If you are basing it on the Eldritch Knight why give in two more fighter feats except to increase its power even more? Battle Trained shouldn't be there at all because being a Fighter X should be a benefit of being one of those classes. Where did the good REF save come from? Now I see the reason you need to "power up" the class because why wouldn't I just go Fighter 2/Cleric X which will basically match this class's performance. This may be opitimizing a bit but compare Ftr2/Cl12 to Ftr1/Cl5/this8: The F/C has +11 BAB and 12th level casting vs. +12 BAB and 12th level casting. OK there is a slight improvement here which indicated this class doesn't need all the extra things that were added to the EK model. Running a comparison at 16th level when this class maxes out with +14 BAB and 14th level casting actually isn't so great when compared to a straight cleric's +12 BAB and 16th level casting. A problem with converting any 3/4 BAB class into a warrior's full BAB is that the net improvement is very small but also significant. I guess that last paragraph my be hard to follow but the short of it is just edit the Eldritch Knight's spellcasting from Arcane to Divine, maybe fix the skill a little bit, and up the HD to a meatier d8 or d10 and then call it good.
JulesCARV 02-24-08, 03:34 PM	BTW, the main motivation for the good reflex save is that eldritch knights basically lose their good will save in favor of a good fortitude save. Clerics, archivists, favored souls, etc all already have good fortitude saves (of course, favored souls have good reflex too, but never mind), so giving them good fortitude alone would leave them weaker on balance, but I still thought it seemed thematically appropriate to nerf their will saves in favor of a more combat-oriented saves, so I figured reflex would be a possible alternative to will to reflect the greater combativeness.
dman11235 02-24-08, 04:34 PM	1) the "divine gish" class already exists: Warpriest. 2) it sucks. Straight cleric is just plain better. 3) divine does melee a LOT better than arcane, in fact, straight cleric IS a gish pretty much. It just doesn't have many feats to spare. It does have full BAB (Divine Power), buffing spells (do I need to list them?), and full spell casting. 4) Never, EVER make a "boring" PrC. Unless the PrC was designed around boreing people to death. 5) This PrC is 10x better than EK. EK is arcane based, and grants the one feat at level 1. This is divine based (that's x5), and has more than twice as many class features (that's x2)
JulesCARV 02-24-08, 08:24 PM	Here's an attempt at a somewhat toned down version. I'm trying to synthesize the criticisms here and see if this is more appropriate, but I feel slightly lost. Heh. They gain somewhat stricter prerequisites (base attack bonus and ability to cast magic vestment rather than just any divine spell -- keeps druids out, incidentally, but still lets clerics, favored souls, archivists, and maybe some others in). I was confused about what to do with saves. Generally, there seemed to be a view that two good saves was overkill; clerics already have two good saves and are quite powerful, so PrCs should take the role of toning clerics down, not boosting them or continuing their overpowered path. EvilVegan, meanwhile, thought that a good fortitude save was overkill on fortitude. So I thought that maybe I'd just give them a good reflex save without will or fort. I got rid of the 5th level bonus feat and the "battle trained" ability. I also took the hit die down to d8. Hit die: d6 Requirements: Base Attack Bonus: +4 Weapon proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons. Spells: Able to cast magic vestment as a divine spell. Feats: Must have gained at least three feats that can be taken as fighter bonus feats (such as point blank shot, power attack, weapon focus, etc), whether these are actually obtained from fighter levels or not. Class Skills: Concentration (con), Craft (int), Knowledge (religion) (int), Profession (wis), and Spellcraft (int). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + int modifier Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per Day 1 +0 +0 +0 +0 - 2 +1 +0 +0 +0 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 3 +2 +1 +1 +1 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 4 +3 +1 +1 +1 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 5 +3 +1 +1 +1 - 6 +4 +2 +2 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 7 +5 +2 +2 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 8 +6 +2 +2 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 9 +6 +3 +3 +3 - 10 +7 +3 +3 +3 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Mujahideen gain no proficiency with weapons or armor. Spells per Day: At every level except 1st, 5th, and 9th, a mujahid gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a mujahid, she must decide to which class she adds each level of mujahid for the purpose of determining spells per day. UPDATE: Took reflex down, took BAB to medium, removed casting advancement at 5th and 9th, took out bonus feats at 1st and 10th, took hit die from d8 to d6, and got rid of climb, diplomacy, handle animal, heal, intimidate, jump, ride, and swim as class skills. UPDATE 2: Okay. Not sure what to do, but something went horribly awry with my last update, so I'm SBLOCKing it off until I can think of something.
dman11235 02-24-08, 08:52 PM	Points 1, 2, and 3 still stand, and point 4 is even more important now. Point five has been taken down to 5x EK in power. Now, you get a new point! 6) That prereq of three fighter bonus feats is a really silly thing. Require Wp. Sp. or something. It's not a very orthodox method of pushing a fighter prereq. In fact, it's downright silly. The wording is clumsy at best, and really cannot be improved without blatant loopholes of death that would probably give the sharpest minds on TheoOp a way to use this class to make another infinite stat-er.
StevenO 02-24-08, 08:57 PM	The revision is sufficent that I'd have no major problems with it. I take that back, you should just drop the good REF save and instead give it a good FORT, WILL, or even both. I am hard pressed to think of one "hard fighting" class that has a good REF save without having one of the others as a good save. If the "gish" PrCs don't give a good WILL save they give FORT instead and this should be no different. Realistically the +4 BAB prereq is a joke in most cases. As a 3rd level spell Magic Vestment already generally requires a +3 BAB as a Cleric 5 adding another +1 BAB doesn't change much if you need to take a martial class to get the Weapon Proficiency. While it is now a simple PrC (they don't really need to be too complicated) I don't see much reason I'd want to take it over cleric levels 6-8 as they also advance BAB and casting. In many ways the reason I don't mind the 10th level bonus feat is because you may actually NEED a reason to stick with the class that long. Sure a building character might take all ten levels in this before finishing out in something else (and usually losing that 3rd point of BAB) but looking at a 20 level build those last levels need a little something to stand out from any other spell advancing class. Fix the saves to something other than good REF and although it is simple it is a class I'd certainly consider using.
JulesCARV 02-24-08, 09:55 PM	1) the "divine gish" class already exists: Warpriest. 2) it sucks. Straight cleric is just plain better. Huh? I just don't understand how you can use the fact that a bad attempt to make a divine/combat oriented class somehow precludes other attempts. If anything, the existence of a good divine/combat class would make such efforts redundant. 3) divine does melee a LOT better than arcane, in fact, straight cleric IS a gish pretty much. It just doesn't have many feats to spare. It does have full BAB (Divine Power), buffing spells (do I need to list them?), and full spell casting. Look: did you read the first paragraph of my first post? Making the warrior-cleric (or warrior-favored soul, etc) independent of divine power is exactly the point of this class. It's an attempt to create a balanced path between "with divine metamagic (persistent spell), divine power, and divine favor, I'm a full fighter and full spellcaster who gives up nothing but some feats!" and "I'm a cleric who's kinda okay at combat, without buffing, or good at combat if I use my first round or two in combat doing so." 4) Never, EVER make a "boring" PrC. Unless the PrC was designed around boreing people to death. Okay. Fair enough. I guess my point is that I really want to avoid making a class along the lines of "this class is only available to clerics of Kord who take the War and Strength domains" -- the idea is something that serves broadly to enable clerics, favored souls, and other divine casters, with any or no divine patron. 5) This PrC is 10x better than EK. EK is arcane based, and grants the one feat at level 1. This is divine based (that's x5), and has more than twice as many class features (that's x2) Divine has some advantages (no need to rest 8 hours, better healing, better necromancy, etc), but I don't think arcane is so weak, with spells like polymorph, greater invisibility etc. 6) That prereq of three fighter bonus feats is a really silly thing. Require Wp. Sp. or something. It's not a very orthodox method of pushing a fighter prereq. In fact, it's downright silly. The wording is clumsy at best, and really cannot be improved without blatant loopholes of death that would probably give the sharpest minds on TheoOp a way to use this class to make another infinite stat-er. It's not supposed to be a fighter prerequisite. If you're a barbarian/cleric, and you take power attack, improved initiative, and cleave without a single fighter level that's fine as far as the prerequisites of this class are concerned. I realize it's unorthodox as a requirement, but ultimately, it's not that different from "any three metamagic or item creation feats" (i.e., part of the loremaster's prerequisites).
dman11235 02-24-08, 10:06 PM	Point 1 was pointing out that if something has been done, don't do it again. Point 2 augments that by alluding to the fact that you should probably be doing a remake of the Warpriest. Just because you want to doesn't change the fact that divine is much better at melee buffing than arcane. Take a look at the Enlightened fist. In the adaptation, it says that for divine, you should lower the amount of spellcasting it gets. Word it like this then "any three fighter bonus feats." Just like that. On a closing note: sell me on the class. Do it. Sell me. It doesn't have to be domain based, but sell this as a combat cleric PrC. Give some abilities that are generic enough to not railroad into a specific deity, but flavorful enough to warrant the class.
StevenO 02-24-08, 10:48 PM	While I may think the latest edit is almost fair and think dman isn't being as polite as possible I do agree with him that it is rather difficult to actually justify this class. Maybe it has to do with the cleric being plain (3/4 BAB, good FORT & WILL, full divine casting, full turning about sums it up in one line) but rather powerful as a whole. Giving a mostly full divine casting progression and full BAB doesn't mean so much when all you are really gaining is a few points of BAB (which can grant you an additional attack) in exchange for some casting levels. As it stands this class is basic but does accelerate the BAB progression in the mid levels but a level 20 build will probably have some problems near it's completion maintaining the BAB gains.
dman11235 02-24-08, 11:00 PM	I'm not trying to be rude or anything. It's just how I roll. When I respond to a PEACH, I may come off a little strong, but I'm just trying to get you to think about your own class in a new light, possibly catching things that you missed the first time through. You can go ahead and check out other places I PEACHed and such. Same thing.
EvilVegan 02-25-08, 07:02 AM	Domains which give fighter bonus feats (war, elf, metal, shadow, time) already make it easier. Domain requirements -- I don't like the idea. For one thing, it would close favored souls off from becoming mujahideen entirely, for one thing (unless they got domains through becoming contemplatives at 24th level or somesuch), and I definitely think this class should be open to favored souls.Wonderful points, retracted suggestion. I wasn't thinking it through at all, as it completely prohibits anything but cleric, which is silly. Hmm... interesting. That could work. It seems somehow weird for this class to have a poor fortitude save, but then again, the knight is a d12-hit die front-liner class with a poor fortitude save. Then again, I'm inclined to say that UA fractional BAB/saves are better anyway. I might just implement the good reflex/will bit, but I'm not quite sure. I'll consider it, at any rate. To be honest, I think it'd do better with "average" saves, but they're not "standard". But it fits much better balance and theme-wise than Good or Poor. You could always use one of the "Pseudo-average" save abilities, like scout has for fortitude. I don't like your current revision (I wouldn't play it, that is). I think it should get 9/10 caster progression (at least 8/10) and full BAB. All poor saves is fine, but odd. Average will and fort would be good. Add a requirement of Combat Casting and/or Skill Focus (Concentration) and maybe another requirement of knowledge (religion) 4 ranks. An RP requirement of "defeated a foe with martial skill alone" wouldn't be a bad one either. Here's why the current update is a problem for me: A straight cleric is way better (with 3 feats, Extend, Persist and DMM persist) and a cleric18/fighter2 is on par or better. Basically, from what I can tell, you're designing a PrC that bypasses divine metamagic persistent divine power. There is no reason to lower it's hit points considering its an average of d8 and d10. I'd go with d8.
StevenO 02-25-08, 01:56 PM	Hit die: d6 Requirements: Base Attack Bonus: +4 Weapon proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons. Spells: Able to cast magic vestment as a divine spell. Feats: Must have gained at least three feats that can be taken as fighter bonus feats (such as point blank shot, power attack, weapon focus, etc), whether these are actually obtained from fighter levels or not. Class Skills: Concentration (con), Craft (int), Knowledge (religion) (int), Profession (wis), and Spellcraft (int). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + int modifier Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per Day 1 +0 +0 +0 +0 - 2 +1 +0 +0 +0 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 3 +2 +1 +1 +1 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 4 +3 +1 +1 +1 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 5 +3 +1 +1 +1 - 6 +4 +2 +2 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 7 +5 +2 +2 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 8 +6 +2 +2 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 9 +6 +3 +3 +3 - 10 +7 +3 +3 +3 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Mujahideen gain no proficiency with weapons or armor. Spells per Day: At every level except 1st, 5th, and 9th, a mujahid gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a mujahid, she must decide to which class she adds each level of mujahid for the purpose of determining spells per day. UPDATE: Took reflex down, took BAB to medium, removed casting advancement at 5th and 9th, took out bonus feats at 1st and 10th, took hit die from d8 to d6, and got rid of climb, diplomacy, handle animal, heal, intimidate, jump, ride, and swim as class skills. Now this is getting ridiculous. Before these latest "updates" it may have been plain ane boring but it was playable even if it wasn't something I'd often use. As presented here there is zero reason to even look at the class.
teshen 02-26-08, 03:57 AM	I like the original idea, JulesCARV. In fact, I'd use the class features on your first Mujahid on the eldritch knight to make it a little more interesting. However, your original idea to use this on a cleric doesn't really do a lot to the class other than amp it a little. Let's go back to the original idea.. . . Namely, what if you want to be a warrior-type cleric, but you don't want to use the cheesy divine metamagic (persistent spell) combination, you want to be better at fighting than a normal okay-but-mediocre-at-combat cleric, and you don't serve a deity with a specific prestige class that would help you (such as Hextor going into Ordained Champion)? . . . So a battle priest, a champion of an ideal or of divine justice... I think you were on the right track with a full base attack and a good fortitude save. A few fighter type classes have d8 so I think a divine warrior can survive with it, seeing as how they have buffs and healing. 9/10 casting would be alright, but 8/10 would leave more room for class features. Things like granting a fighting themed domain, and if they already had it, give out something that is an improvement on the original. An example could be the war domain granting weapon specialization and/or greater weapon focus or stacking to determine the effects of the strength domain and granting a second useage a day. You could grant a battle blessing at first level and give several possible choices. To go along with evilvegan's suggestion for an average save, those could be two of the options, one for an 'average' reflex and one for an 'average' will. Any minor, themed, bonus could go there actually. By giving lots of choices for abilities, but only a few handed out, you make it so that each champion can be different but not to much stronger than he would otherwise be...
DonThelonious 02-26-08, 08:21 AM	I'm not trying to be rude or anything. It's just how I roll. When I respond to a PEACH, I may come off a little strong, but I'm just trying to get you to think about your own class in a new light, possibly catching things that you missed the first time through. You can go ahead and check out other places I PEACHed and such. Same thing. No offense intended toward you dman, but sometimes your a real :censored: when it comes to PEACHing. But you have never given any bad advice as far as I have seen. Not to mention, unlike some other people I see around here, you actually know what your talking about. Trust dman11235.
JulesCARV 02-26-08, 04:53 PM	The main problem I'm having in channeling dman11235's critiques into improvement of the class is that most of his criticism is along the lines of "the class you are attempting to create should not exist." (It's redundant, it's been done before (badly), clerics are already battle-ready enough thanks to divine power, etc). There are a few criticisms that are helpful (regarding power level and prerequisite feat wording), but for the most part, it's about how this class oughtn't exist, not how to improve it. In short, I feel like I wrote a whodunnit detective story, dman11235 wanted a coming-of-age bildungsroman type story, and dman11235 is saying "your story doesn't have nearly enough formative life experiences, quirky relatives, or childhood anecdotes! And what's with all of these contrived clues and mysteries anyway?"
dman11235 02-26-08, 05:20 PM	I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that you should have made this a remake, or just forget about the Warpriest (I already do). I'm not even sure how you got that from what I said. Read the first paragraph in post 13. I'm supporting this class as much as possible. Everything other than that, I've been trying to help balance the class and make it work. I'm all in favor of this class, and I'd like to see it done, but I would like to see it done well. EK and Warpriest are not done well.
StevenO 02-26-08, 05:53 PM	I'd actually say the EK is one of the best done PrCs around. Sure it doesn't do a lot but for what it does there is nothing that really compares with it. The closest class to the EK is the Abjurant Champion (with full BAB and casting instead of giving up a level of casting) but the AbC is more difficult to get into (requires a feat) and is only five levels long. Both the AbC and EK can be taken at 7th level with the AbC at +6 BAB but casting at 3rd level while the EK has a +4 BAB and 5th level casting. In a recent thread badmouthing the Complete Divine I commented that the Warpriest would brobably be fine to good if it had the 3/4 casting progression of the Hospitaler.
dman11235 02-26-08, 06:04 PM	My complaint is the utter lack of everything. It's the fighter of the PrC world. No features other than advanced spell casting and the one bonus feat. Bland as bland could be. Power wise, it's probably fine. My complaint on the Warpriest is the exact opposite. Power sucks like none other, but the flavor is there. I accomplishes the warrior/cleric feel.
StevenO 02-26-08, 07:29 PM	Actually, the most utterly bland PRC is the Mystic Theurge which has NO class features other than spellcasting. I do have a hard time calling something "bland" or a level as "dead" just because all that level offers is improved spellcasting and often a new spell level as well. The cleric class may be filled with all kinds of "dead" levels (5,7,11,13,17) but are they really dead when the spellcasting the provide opens up a new level of spells?
JulesCARV 02-26-08, 08:03 PM	Okay: so in what sense do you think the warpriest should be remade? Should it retain the same name and some similar features (inflame, glory domain, etc), while changing some things (fewer SLAs, more caster level progression) and maybe altering the prerequisites a bit (martial weapons as a requirement rather than a class feature, no turn/rebuke undead or domain prerequisites)? (In general, my habit is to try to avoid using names or ideas that I feel have already been "taken," and try to formulate something new. Doing remakes usually feels strange to me, like, "Hey, Isaac Asimov's Foundation had neat ideas, but Asimov was a mediocre writer, so I'm going to rewrite the story but with better dialogue, prose, and characterization!") It seems that there's a general consensus that the Complete Divine warpriest went awry, but you believe that, rather than creating something else, I should remake the warpriest. What features of the warpriest do you believe should be retained and make it worth remaking rather than replacing? I'd remake the warpriest, but I'm just not sure which of its distinctive features I want to keep which would make it warpriest-like rather than something unrecognizably new sharing the warpriest's old name.
dman11235 02-26-08, 10:58 PM	I don't really think it was done well at all. It would be the same to me as just scrapping it and making an entirely new class, which is what you're doing. Either way is fine to me. Really, the Warpriest was made for the large scale battle field. If that's not what you're going for, skip to the next paragraph. I like the Rally ability. That's about the only worthwhile ability from that class. I do like the sort of Marshal-esque-ness of the class, and am thinking if it would not have been better off as a PrC designed to combine Cleric/Marshal. It just seems to fit for me. @Steven: You got me there. It's a close race, but at least the EK gets a bonus fighter feat! I do believe that spells are class features, as I have stated in that one other thread, but they aren't enough for a PrC. A PrC is supposed to be prestigious. Stand out. Other than the full BAB and higher HD, what's the difference between a straight wizard and an EK? the wizard has another feat. And better casting. It's worse at melee though. I just wish it could have done something to mesh the abilities somehow. The Ultimate Magus has the ability to sacrifice spells from one caster to help power the other. The Abjurant Champion has the ability to sacrifices spells to enhance its combat, and has its martial training help out its casting (the 5th level ability). I you skipped the rest of that paragraph, more power to you, we can ignore the entirety of the Warpriest. For that, you want to have abilities that utilize both aspects of the character, the melee and the spells. I can go through a couple must-haves: d10 HD, 2+int skills, full BAB, good fort save, more than 1/2 spell casting advancement, preferably 3/4-4/5. After that, you have to think: "How can I represent my idea as a class?" Think about what abilities would represent that idea in class features. That's how you are going to make this class a success. This is the idea I'm pretty sure you're going to go with, so I expanded on it a little more than the Warpriest remake. I don't think that's the flavor you were going for. As a side note, Aasimov was a great writer.
StevenO 02-26-08, 11:48 PM	I am normally one of those people who HATES to suggest adding spellcasting to any PrC (the AA and DragonD especially) but I think giving the CDiv's Warpriest the same 3/4 casting that the Hospitaler gets (the would add casting to levels 3 and 7) would make the Warpriest acceptable. To me the big problem with the Warpriest is that it gives up far too much for what it gains. Discounting the abilities for a momement as written it gives up a good WILL save and 5 casting levels for a slightly higher HD and what will probably only be a net +2 BAB. Some of the abilites are nice but they don't make up for all the lost casting. The Glory Domain is nice if you regularly use Turn Undead for its intended purpose but it may not as much in the way of spells. Inflame reminds me of the Paladin's Aura of Courage or Bardic Music but a save against charms and fear may do many no good. The spell like abilities certainly are nice but I don't think they make up for the lack of casting. Adding spellcasting at levels 3 and 7 would still mean the WP loses three casting levels but that I could live with. It also makes the class fit nicely into the four level slots I like using when building character. Giving the WP 3/4 casting can produce the following relationships when used with Cleric: Cleric 20, +15 BAB, casting 20 Clr10/WP10, +17 BAB, casting 17 Clr12/WP8, +17 BAB, casting 18 but misses Mass Heal and Implacable Foe.
dman11235 02-26-08, 11:53 PM	Not to mention that with full spell casting you could still do those...and more. And still have full BAB (Divine Power). And can cast heal, mass more times.
StevenO 02-27-08, 12:40 AM	Persistent Divine Power meet Dispel Magic. I know it doesn't always work but I do hate how magic is used as the excuse for why having something another way just sucks. Statements like "Want a full BAB then Divine Power is going to be golden for your" or "AA's enhance arrow ability is horrible because Greater Magic Weapon is so much better" irritate me because they are so easy to be undone by a DM willing to throw even a few "debuffers" at the party. That cleric wanabe warrior may be attacking with a +20 BAB but Dispel Magic knocks that back down to the +12 he has after all that odd level multiclassing.
dman11235 02-27-08, 10:16 AM	I use that to show that DMM Persist isn't overpowered. But it does get you full BAB. And it doesn't always work (dispelling), and it costs an action to do. And just because it can get dispelled, doesn't mean that it can't be golden for you. And there is something called contingencies. Something like a Ring of Counterspells, or preparing some more DPs. And I don't think that the Enhance Arrow is worthless at all. It's better than GMW. It's the rest of the class that doesn't work for me.
EvilVegan 02-28-08, 04:05 PM	So. Any suggestions for the guy? Full BAB is a must. Otherwise the class becomes less useful than straight cleric for representing his concept. I'd say average fort and will (and fractional saves in general), but I like average and he's already had 2 dips. At least 4/5 casting (to reach the golden gish requirement of 17th level caster level by 20). Suggestions: Grant Glory Domain (or bonus domain chosen from Glory/War/Protection/Strength) Only 1 or maybe 2 bonus feats. Cleric casting is already better at representing fighteriness than wizard, they shouldn't get that much of a boost over an arcane gish. If 2 feats, reduce casting (to 4/5). Not too many abilities. I'd say 1 feat and 1 domain with maybe a capstone ability that isn't as powerful as a feat. I'd put the bonus domain at 3rd level. Bonus feat at 1st, 5th, or 10th (wherever you put the caster level loss). Personally I'd put it at 5th and have the caster level loss at 5th. It doesn't match any other PrC that I know of, but it isn't front loaded and it isn't all dead levels.
dman11235 02-28-08, 04:31 PM	See, don't use the three tier save progression. That belongs in that one variant, not here. For average saves, do what the Swashbuckler and Scout did.
EvilVegan 02-28-08, 04:35 PM	Yea. Though scout/swash have additional benefits on top of that, which also work well as seasoning. For gelatinous cubes.
dman11235 02-28-08, 04:58 PM	Wha..?
EvilVegan 02-29-08, 08:19 AM	Delicious. But seriously, the scout "pseudo-average save" feature also adds to initiative checks (I think). The swashbuckler one adds to reflex and something else (I think). I'm AFB and haven't opened a 3.5 splat since 4e was announced, so it may be a bit off.
dman11235 02-29-08, 11:54 AM	Swash is just reflex I believe, and scout is init as well. But you haven't answered my confusion. Seasoning for Gel. Cubes?
EvilVegan 02-29-08, 12:30 PM	-2 points to me for Obscure Reference to Other Thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=930598). :P The word 'seasoning' made me think of it for some reason. That and it was just before dinner time.
dman11235 02-29-08, 02:58 PM	...and then +4 points for linking such a great thread. I need to come up with more recipies.
JulesCARV 03-01-08, 09:07 PM	Okay -- take three. The Mujahid "Even if Kord did not grant me his magical gifts, I would still fight for him with every muscle in my body -- with greatsword, with bow, and with my bare fists if need be." -- Harbuk, Mujahid of Kord Mujahideen are divine spellcasters who undergo more rigorous combat training than most. Usually, they serve war deities, like Corellon Larethian, Gruumsh, Heironeous, and Hextor. However, servants of all deities, or even divine spellcasters unaffiliated with a deity, are capable of becoming mujahideen. Clerics are common mujahideen, but favored souls make up a disproportiate fraction of them. Archivists are rare, but not unheard of, as mujahideen. Hit die: d10 Requirements: Base Attack Bonus: +4 Weapon proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons. Spells: Able to cast magic vestment as a divine spell Feats: Must have gained at least three feats that can be taken as fighter bonus feats, whether these are actually obtained from fighter levels or not. Class Skills: Concentration (con), Climb (str), Craft (int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (cha), Jump (str), Knowledge (religion) (int), Profession (wis), Ride (dex), Spellcraft (int), and Swim (str) Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + int modifier Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per Day Extra Spell Known 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 War Psyche +1, - Acid Splash Expanded Spell List 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class True Strike 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Barkskin 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Good Hope 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Fire Shield 6 +6 +5 +2 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Greater Heroism 7 +7 +5 +2 +2 War Psyche +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Bigby's Forceful Hand 8 +8 +6 +2 +2 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Mordenkainen's Sword 9 +9 +6 +3 +3 +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Iron Body 10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class Crushing Hand Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Mujahideen gain no proficiency with weapons or armor. War Psyche (ex): At 1st level, the mujahid gains a finely-honed sense of awareness, quickness of thought, understanding of magical protection, and mental toughness, gaining a +1 bonus on reflex and will saves, as well as to the bonus to AC granted by divine spells which increase AC, such as shield of faith, magic vestment, cloak of chaos, etc. At 7th level, the bonus increases to +2. Expanded Spell List: At each level, a mujahid adds on extra spell to the list of a divine spellcasting class to which she belonged before gaining that level of mujahid. For instance, the mujahid adds acid splash to her list of level 0 spells at 1st level, truestrike to her list of level 1 spells at 2nd level, and so on. If the mujahid belongs to more than one divine spellcasting class, she adds the spell to the same class as the one whose casting level is increased at that level, with the exception of acid splash at first level (when she gains no divine spellcasting progression), in which case she adds it to any of the divine spellcasting classes to which she belongs. Mujahid Level Spell Level Spell 1 0 Acid Splash 2 1 True strike 3 2 Barkskin 4 3 Good Hope 5 4 Fire Shield 6 5 Greater Heroism 7 6 Bigby's Forceful Hand 8 7 Mordenkainen's Sword 9 8 Iron Body 10 9 Crushing Hand If the mujahid belongs to a class with a fixed number of spells known, such as a spontaneous spellcasting class, she automatically gains these spells as spells known when she has both sufficient spellcasting to cast spells of that level and sufficient mujahid levels to have the spell added to her class list. Spells per Day: At every level except 1st, a mujahid gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a mujahid, she must decide to which class she adds each level of mujahid for the purpose of determining spells per day. Bonus Feat: At 4th and 10th levels, a mujahid gains a bonus feat selected from the list of fighter bonus feats. UPDATE: Made gain of expanded spell list more gradual to reduce its "dippiness." Moved War Psyche from levels 3 and 7 to levels 4 and 8. Also, got rid of the level 5 bonus feat and moved it to level 1 instead, where it seemed more balanced, given that a spellcaster level is lost there. Also, added War Psyche bonuses to magic vestment, since I thought that that prerequisite should be tied into class features slightly more. UPDATE 2: Moved War Psyche +2 back to level 7, and a few other things (mostly cosmetic). UPDATE 3: Switched War Psyche +1 and the first bonus feat. UPDATE 4: Copied the fluff over.
StevenO 03-01-08, 09:30 PM	The "Expanded Spell List" should probably just be a domain. Not that non-cleric can gain domains. While I may like allowing "free" spells known to spontaneous casters I know why it was removed from 3.5 when it was allowed in 3.0. I like the idea but don't know how I'd implement it. For some reason I'd really like to push that first War Psyche back to 4th level at least. That evens out the apparent REF/WILL saves instead of getting that big two point jump at 3rd level.
JulesCARV 03-06-08, 03:33 PM	I decideded that gradually expanding the spell list would make it more attractive as a 10-level class and less attractive as a dip than granting a domain. Domains... I don't know. I don't like the warpriest approach of granting glory or domination. Glory is more about blasting undead with positive energy than charging into battle with a warhammer. Likewise, domination doesn't really have anything to do with the war-oriented theme -- it's about mind control stuff. It really seems like the idea was more "let's have good warpriests get a good domain and evil warpriests get an evil domain!" than anything appropriate to the fairly alignment-neutral battle-oriented frontliner theme. There are other domains which are more straightforwardly battle-oriented: destruction, strength, war. Maybe some others. Since those three themselves are more than the two-domain limit of a cleric, then one is always available as a pick. Overall, though, I dunno.... maybe the domain approach could work, but my inclination is to try to skip over it, personally. Do you think granting a domain would overall be a cleaner approach? What domains do you think would be good options? (Bearing in mind that I'm trying to avoid what I regard as an error in the warpriest in granting glory or domination.) I'm thinking destruction, strength, and war so far, but any other ideas? UPDATE: Ah, I see EvilVegan suggested the protection domain. I'm not sure whether I like that as a bonus domain concept for a mujahid or not -- I'm sort of on the fence about it.
StevenO 03-06-08, 05:56 PM	I certainly think a bonus domain would be much "cleaner" as its effects don't require further clarification. That said you'd probably want to make a short list of domains that can be selected including one of your own creation (call it Combat or something). Perhaps a minor problem with granting a Domain instead of just adding new spells known is that domain powers often represent something close to a free feat.
EvilVegan 03-09-08, 10:21 AM	Also, to deter dipping just put the domain at level 3 or higher.
JulesCARV 04-11-08, 01:18 AM	Hmm... now I'm wondering, my current "magic vestment" prerequisite excludes divine casters like druids, shugenjas, and spirit shamans. I'm more willing to exclude them from becoming mujahideen than, say, favored souls (my issue with domains), but I'm still wondering if, to keep this class broad, I should re-revise the prerequisites a bit to allow all divine casters in. Not that I imagine any sane druid would actually want to enter the mujahid prestige class, but hey....
JulesCARV 04-15-08, 03:36 AM	Okay: I created a new version. I've decided to loosen entry restrictions to allow druids and other divine casters with magic vestment in. I also took into account the criticism of the expanded spell list, and instead offer a bonus domain as a level 10 ability. Also restored the "mujahid level - 2 = fighter level for meeting feat prerequisites" feature from my first attempt -- I decided I liked it after all.