Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lotus Crane 10-22-06, 08:02 PM	I decided to submit my own version of this fan favorite. For those of you unfamiliar with the Fire Emblem series, the Thief->Assassin class in those games is a bit less skilled and a bit more combat-oriented than the D&D rogue and/or Assassin, being that FE is more of a tactics (turn-based combat) game than a "true" RPG. They're characterized by having rather low normal attack power (especially in Path of Radiance, where they can no longer use normal swords, but are instead restricted to knives), but after class change, they have among the highest critical rates, as well as the chance to instantly kill enemies with a critical hit, regardless of actual damage dealt. ASSASSIN Hit Die: d6. Requirements To qualify to become an assassin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Alignment: Any nongood. Feats: Blind-Fight, Improved Critical (any finessable weapon) or Power Critical (any finessable weapon), Weapon Finesse. Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Sleight of Hand 4 ranks. Special: Sneak attack +2d6 (or at the DM's discretion, a comparable ability such as skirmish or sudden strike). Class Skills The assassin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Table: The Assassin Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Death strike 2nd +2 +0 +3 +0 Uncanny dodge 3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Sneak attack +1d6 4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Bonus feat 5th +5 +1 +4 +1 Nobody is safe 6th +6 +2 +5 +2 Sneak attack +2d6 7th +7 +2 +5 +2 Hide in plain sight 8th +8 +2 +6 +2 Bonus feat 9th +9 +3 +6 +3 Sneak attack +3d6 10th +10 +3 +7 +3 Killing edge Class Features All of the following are class features of the assassin prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Assassins gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. Death Strike (Ex): If an assassin scores a critical hit that also deals sneak attack (or at the DM's discretion, a comparable ability such as skirmish or sudden strike) damage, it has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Dex modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per class level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, she is not killed or paralyzed, but she still takes extra damage as normal for a critical hit and sneak attack. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, an assassin can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a character gains uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from those classes stack to determine the minimum number of rogue (and/or a comparable class, such as assassin) levels an opponent must have to flank the character. Sneak Attack: Beginning at 3rd level, if an assassin can catch an opponent when she is unable to defend himself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The assassin’s attack deals extra damage any time his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the assassin flanks his target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 3rd level, and it increases by 1d6 every three assassin levels thereafter. Should the assassin score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Sneak attack bonuses from multiple sources stack. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, an assassin can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty. If an assassin uses a nonlethal weapon to make a death strike (see above), he can only paralyze his target with it, not kill her. An assassin can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies, until he gains the nobody is safe ability (see below). Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The assassin must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. An assassin cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach – generally, creatures that are more than two size categories larger than the assassin. Bonus Feats: At 4th and 8th level, an assassin gains a bonus feat from the following list: Combat Cloak Expert, Danger Sense, Darkstalker, Death Blow, Deft Strike, Flick of the Wrist, Gloom Razor, Hear the Unseen, Improved Critical (finessable weapons only), Improved Initiative, Power Critical (finessable weapons only), Quick Draw, Quick Reconnoiter, Shadow Blade, Shadow Striker, Telling Blow. An assassin must still meet all prerequisites for a feat, including ability score and base attack minimums. Nobody is Safe (Ex): An assassin is expected to kill people – or things – that nobody else can, and is trained to do exactly that. Starting at 5th level, if he attacks a creature with an appropriate bane weapon, or a creature that is one of his favored enemies (if he has that ability from another source), he can score critical hits and make sneak attacks against it, even if it would normally be immune to such damage. This ability bypasses both natural immunity, such as for monsters who lack a normal anatomy, and magical protection, such as that provided by fortification armor. However, it does not automatically overcome other limitations on sneak attacks, such as concealment, the uncanny dodge ability, or a size difference of more than two categories. Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): At 7th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow. Killing Edge (Ex): By 10th level, an assassin is supremely deadly. When he makes a death strike, he adds the critical multiplier of his weapon to its save DC. For example, if he uses a dagger to make a death strike, he would add +2 to the save DC, but if he uses a punching dagger, he would add +3 to the save DC. In addition, if the assassin wields a keen finessable weapon for which he also has the Improved Critical feat, he ignores the normal restriction against stacking effects that increase threat range. For example, an assassin with Improved Critical (kukri) who wields a keen kukri would threaten a critical hit on an attack roll of 12-20.
Lotus Crane 10-22-06, 08:20 PM	• Before you even think of saying "overpowered," remember, this gives up the RAW Assassin's spellcasting ability, which is really good, much better than most people realize. Invisibility, phantom foe, wraithstrike, dimension door, greater invisibility, and sniper's eye are all amazing spells that a RAW Assassin can cast that a multiclass rogue/caster would have to sacrifice several dice of sneak attack for. • While I understand it's a little difficult to imagine a trained killer being good, in the Fire Emblem games, there are definately a few nonevil characters on your side who happen to be Assassins. • In most FE games, there don't seem to be any limitations on what an Assassin can't instantly kill, aside from the final boss of course. But as balancing factor for the sake of a smooth translation to D&D, I made Nobody is Safe reliant on having bane weapons or favored enemy. • The reason Killing Edge has a Death Strike DC bonus dependent on critical multiplier instead of being a flat value, is because I wanted there to be at least a little incentive for Assassins to not automatically use weapons with the widest threat range. Kukri-wielders may deal Death Strikes more often, but punching dagger-wielders will deal more potent Death Strikes. • While the item-reliant aspects of Nobody is Safe and Killing Edge may seem strange to some of you, the fact of the matter is that D&D inherently and inextricably calculates a character's equipment as part of their appropriate power level, so I don't see any problems in balancing a class with that in mind. It's the same philosophy I applied to the Enchained Weapon ability of my FE General PrC (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=723112). But what do you guys think?
supernerd8916 10-22-06, 08:39 PM	you one-upman you ;) looks pretty good poor prime32 :rolleyes:
RedPersian 10-22-06, 09:15 PM	Your take on the assassin looks sweet. My feeling of the other assassin was a one shot deal were if you didn't properly sneak attack them or death attack then you were screwed the rest of the encounter. This assassinm makes you the same sneaky guy and then you can assassinate the king and deal with the guards afterwards. Very nice.
PsiRadish 10-22-06, 09:50 PM	Very clever and cool. And not cool as a generic word for good, but real cool. Certainly a viable alternative for someone who doesn't see how assassination and spellcasting necessarily go together (though the deliberate nature of the RAW Assassin's death attack does feel a bit more assassiny than random death strikes, but that's on the FE designers' heads more than yours). However, if you keep following Prime32 around like this he's going to think you're in love with him :)
Kary Wanzer 10-22-06, 10:08 PM	Interesting, but it seems a little bit weaker than both the RAW Assassin, and your FE General (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=723112)? Compared to the RAW Assassin, it looks like your FE Assassin isn't just giving up spellcasting; it's also giving up 2d6 sneak attack, Improved UD, Poison Use, +5 saves against poison, and a few class skills; most notably, Use Magic Device. It also has much tougher prerequisites. Death Strike is admittedly more useful than Death Attack since it could trigger one or more times every round, but that's only if an attack is both a critical hit and a sneak attack; that could be tough with medium BAB and not having the RAW Assassin spells you mentioned. And you're right - Nobody is Safe and Killing Edge are really item-dependent. I think you could safely give your FE Assassin good BAB instead of medium, and it still wouldn't be overpowered. Especially going up against your FE General (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=723112), it would probably get thrashed, as is.
Lotus Crane 10-22-06, 10:26 PM	(though the deliberate nature of the RAW Assassin's death attack does feel a bit more assassiny than random death strikes, but that's on the FE designers' heads more than yours). Well, that, and random death strikes are likely to be more useful in actual combat than an ability that requires you to refrain from hostilities for 3 rounds. However, if you keep following Prime32 around like this he's going to think you're in love with him :) Erm, no... o_O more like, somewhat disappointed in him, maybe even mildly annoyed. And I'm more a fan of the ladies (http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8586/1464ln9.jpg). ^_~ I think you could safely give your FE Assassin good BAB instead of medium, and it still wouldn't be overpowered. Hmm, anybody else think this is okay? Granted, my FE Assassin does have pretty steep requirements... either BAB +8 and 3 feats (because Improved Critical requires BAB +8), or 4 feats (because Power Critical requires Weapon Focus). Is that enough to shift it into the "primary fighting class" category and earn it full BAB, also considering the lack of spellcasting, reduced sneak attack, and peasly 4 + Int skill points per level?
Lotus Crane 10-23-06, 02:27 AM	Alright, for now I'll take Kary's advice and change it to full BAB. Trade for trade, the comparison of RAW vs FE is as follows: • Removing the spellcasting justifies the increase to full BAB. • Adding effectively 5 more requirements, and removing some class skills (especially Use Magic Device) justifies adding 2 bonus feats. • Removing Poison Use and the +5 saves vs poison justifies the improvement from Death Attack to Death Strike. • Removing Improved Uncanny Dodge and decreasing the sneak attack damage from +5d6 to +3d6 justifies adding Nobody is Safe and Killing Edge. These aren't perfect parities, but I think they're roughly comparable enough that I shouldn't be losing sleep over it. Your thoughts?
Kary Wanzer 10-23-06, 11:30 PM	Looking good hon. ^_^ I'm surprised there haven't been more responses to it yet. Actually, why don't you submit one of your PrC's to that contest going on right now?
PsiRadish 10-24-06, 04:07 AM	I like the BAB increase, too. Besides that, I've just been really wondering how you made your table so it uses the full width of the post area and doesn't have those awful scroll bars. EDIT: Okay, that's weird, now your table has scroll bars. In both IE and Firefox. Nevermind, I guess.
Electricall 11-25-06, 10:32 PM	I love you, man. :bow: This is so beautiful, it brings tears to my eyes. Finally, a deadly-as-hell assassin that people should rightly fear. :clap:
enygmatic_me 11-25-06, 11:04 PM	It looks good. I was expecting something wacky (like all bladed weapons wielded by the Assassin gains the Vorpal Quality) when I first so the topic. I must say that I am happily suprised.
GreyEagle 11-27-06, 05:24 PM	I really enjoy this. As opposed to the RAW assassin this is a class I can see my characters playing and not being total crap. Well done sir, well done!
Kary Wanzer 05-15-07, 08:59 PM	:w: This seems as good a time as any for a random bump. Unfortunately, it seems like your FE General (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-723112) didn't survive the board upgrades. :u:
DX2052 05-16-07, 05:06 PM	I'd like to see a variant made that mirrors FE Myrmidons
igotsmeakabob!! 05-24-07, 11:12 PM	I have to say that I'm very impressed with this PrC. I'm tempted to throw my planned Factotum out the window and trying this in the new campaign that I'll be playing in... what class(es) do you think would be good lead-ins? Builds? It's a very nice class. Also, I have to admit that my assassin-love has been built to incredible heights after seeing the new Assassin's Creed video (http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=19861&type=mov).
Lotus Crane 05-25-07, 12:37 AM	Rogue 2->fighter 2->rogue 1 would probably be the simplest build, though you could try replacing rogue with ninja or scout (except that scout would have to be taken to 5th for +2d6 skirmish), and fighter with swashbuckler or warblade (except that I would take swashbuckler to 3rd for insightful strike). Rogue 3/fighter 1/ranger 1 (for a favored enemy to take advantange of my Assassin's nobody is safe ability) could also work. Thanks for your interest btw, but don't forget that this PrC really only works if your DM is providing the party with at least the assumed amount of treasure on page 135 of the DMG. Without a bane weapon (or a favored enemy), nobody is safe is useless; without both Improved Critical and a keen weapon, you only get half the benefits of killing edge. Stingy DM's who don't like giving out any goodies will screw this class over.
igotsmeakabob!! 05-25-07, 12:08 PM	Yeah, I know... we're going to meet our DM today, actually. I'll have to see, heh. But really, I like the method of Death attack.
Lotus Crane 05-25-07, 07:40 PM	But really, I like the method of Death attack. Standard death attack or my death strike? I suspect you said one but meant the other.
igotsmeakabob!! 05-25-07, 07:45 PM	Your death strike.
Watsyurname529 05-27-07, 09:55 AM	Really awesome, I really like your death strike; now an assassin can do what it does best, kill stuff with 1-2 strikes. You now need to make a class from the FE Myrmidron.
DX2052 05-28-07, 01:36 AM	Really awesome, I really like your death strike; now an assassin can do what it does best, kill stuff with 1-2 strikes. You now need to make a class from the FE Myrmidron. and when they make it they need to put a line or 2 in the flavor text that mentions something along the lines of "although commonly employed as mercenarys, Myrmidrons with unique features are considered bad omens to there employers, due to there tendency to repay favors" pokeing fun at the Nabarls/Navarres.
Flay Crimsonwind 05-28-07, 05:39 PM	Wow, an assassin that I'll take all ten levels in. Nicely done. I gotta say, I'd barely go assassin 3 (from DMG) before multiclassing it out for something like the Telflammar shadowlord, but this I'd consider in a real build. Have a cookie. :cookie: Now I gotta steal my friends FE games and actually finish one of them, heheheh. :D
Nehpets 05-28-07, 06:07 PM	I love your class as a major fan of all FE but sadly none of my groups DMs would allow it as they do not like the boards.
igotsmeakabob!! 05-28-07, 07:11 PM	Eh, alot of DM's don't allow player created stuff as a rule. Thats why you always have to hope that one of your creations makes it into a book, so it'll become official. Heh.
DX2052 05-29-07, 12:38 AM	Eh, alot of DM's don't allow player created stuff as a rule. Thats why you always have to hope that one of your creations makes it into a book, so it'll become official. Heh. I have heard of DMs useing stuff from the boards for NPCs on the premise that it IS obscure and the players are unlikely to know what he just threw at them.
igotsmeakabob!! 05-29-07, 01:15 AM	That's not a bad idea, actually. If my current character ever shuffles off this mortal coil, I'll check with my DM on this PrC. Of course I'll have to hook up my printer again... after buying ink.. bah.
OneWinged4ngel 05-30-07, 02:37 AM	Death Strike (Ex): If an assassin scores a critical hit that also deals sneak attack (or at the DM's discretion, a comparable ability such as skirmish or sudden strike) damage, it has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Dex modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per class level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, she is not killed or paralyzed, but she still takes extra damage as normal for a critical hit and sneak attack. Did you take into account that this makes you a Solar-esque Save or Die machine gun? There's nothing stopping you from hitting someone with a full attack of 6 or 7 (or more!) attacks (from a good range, no less) with a 12-20 (likely better, if you're using any features outside of this 10 level progression...) crit-range, meaning it goes off half the time? Solars are scary, you see. It's also gained at level 1, and it's easily the most worthwhile ability in the class. At least it's got some incentive not to 1-level dip because the save DC is based on class level. Thanks, I'll take Pounce or Raging Mongoose and force tons of save or dies on every single enemy I come across that isn't immune to sneak attack damage (and spend my feats and equipment on minimizing that problem). Fortunately, Nothing is Safe helps me a lot with that. The whole "let's give the assassin some versatility in equipment choices" thing, however, only comes in as a CAPSTONE. Meaning that they're always going to want to use a kukri or similar weapon until then, and are likely to stick with it by that point. Kinda defeats the point, even if the point is a good one. I think there are some good ideas here, but it seems like a one-trick pony (it does knock out the usual Rogue or Scout tricks, lopping off 4 sp and taking out UMD), even if that trick is pretty scary ("I'm a save or die machine gun that crits half the time and and deals a ton of damage even when you save.") The Full BAB certainly doesn't hurt that idea.
Lotus Crane 05-30-07, 04:22 AM	Did you take into account that this makes you a Solar-esque Save or Die machine gun? There's nothing stopping you from hitting someone with a full attack of 6 or 7 (or more!) attacks (from a good range, no less) with a 12-20 (likely better, if you're using any features outside of this 10 level progression...) crit-range, meaning it goes off half the time? Save-or-die machine, yes. But by my calculations, between having to settle for standard attacks during some rounds, missed attacks, and non-critical hits, I'd say a FE Assassin would be lucky to average 2 save-or-dies per round. That seems perfectly reasonable considering how a rogue or standard Assassin do more sneak attack damage (particularly standard Assassins, who get access to wraithstrike and greater invisibility), or how most full casters eventually get save-but-die-anyway. Speaking of full casters, death ward would thwart the FE assassin about as well as true seeing against illusions or mind blank against divinations and enchantments. Again, even more so than a rogue or standard Assassin, since the FE Assassin is only gaining +3d6 sneak attack. Also, even with the threat-stacking part of killing edge, I'm not aware of any 3.5 legal weapons (weren't bladed gauntlets errated?) or abilities that could push the range lower than 12. Care to enlighten me with a specific example? Solars are scary, you see. And this is what I would consider hyperbole, you see. Even a high-level FE Assassin would get mangled by a solar, and/or the full caster who gated it in; after all, he has far more limited magical recourse than a rogue or standard Assassin. He's not quite as helpless as a fighter in this situation - you know, why bother going off on the old tangent of extremes? We both know the FE Assassin is still closer to the middle of the power spectrum than CoDzilla. Or do you disagree? It's also gained at level 1, and it's easily the most worthwhile ability in the class. At least it's got some incentive not to 1-level dip because the save DC is based on class level. I don't need a lecture about dip theory; I'm well-acquainted with it and have proposed fixes to abuses in other classes (for example, limiting the paladin's divine grace to a maximum of +1 per class level, to cut off those whacky sorcerer 18/paladin 2 builds). However, like with the standard Assassin and death attack, the paladin and smite evil, the Fochlucan Lyrist and unbound, or heck spellcasters and spells, certain intrinsic abilities which embody the entirety of a class, by their very nature are required to be available starting at 1st level; a class would have no (or at least, very little) reason to exist outside of fulfilling its primary function which revolves around that ability. This is one of those conscientious design decisions where the main ability has to go first, but at least it scales with level, as you noted. Further insurance against dipping comes in the form of the 5th and 10th level abilities; I believe it would be extremely foolish for anybody to take just 1 level of FE Assassin. Thanks, I'll take Pounce or Raging Mongoose and force tons of save or dies on every single enemy I come across that isn't immune to sneak attack damage (and spend my feats and equipment on minimizing that problem). Martial maneuvers, eh? Well, if you alternate FE Assassin with martial adept levels, your death strike save DC's won't scale as quickly; if you stay straight FE Assassin, you'll have to blow most of your feats on Martial Study. Either way, you have to make a few compromises and sacrifices, which sounds balanced to me. The whole "let's give the assassin some versatility in equipment choices" thing, however, only comes in as a CAPSTONE. Meaning that they're always going to want to use a kukri or similar weapon until then, and are likely to stick with it by that point. Kinda defeats the point, even if the point is a good one. I admit that the "hey why don't you use a punching dagger instead of a kukri!" part of it is a bit shaky, but that's not the only or even main point of killing edge. The potential threat range-stacking is the most important part, followed by the fact that the sudden boost in death strike save DC (whether it's +2, +3, or even +4 if you can find an exotic finessable weapon somewhere) greatly encourages anybody who enters FE Assasin to stay in it until 10th level, rather than dipping for 1 level. Making the save DC boost dependent on the critical multiplier was really just something of an afterthought, and it probably shows. Originally it would have been a flat boost regardless of weapon, but at the last moment I thought "hey wouldn't it be boring if 100% of all FE Assassins used kukris and rapiers? How can I entice at least 5% of them to use punching daggers instead?" I think there are some good ideas here, but it seems like a one-trick pony (it does knock out the usual Rogue or Scout tricks, lopping off 4 sp and taking out UMD), even if that trick is pretty scary ("I'm a save or die machine gun that crits half the time and and deals a ton of damage even when you save.") The Full BAB certainly doesn't hurt that idea. Last time I checked, being a one-trick pony was bad for base classes (sorry healer, but why would I play you over a cleric?), but was actually good for prestige classes. Isn't the entire point of a (balanced) PrC to give you one or two really powerful abilities in a narrow field of expertise, at the expense of the more generalized abilities of your original base class? Let's see, 4 less skill points per level and the loss of the ever-useful UMD, in return for a heavier emphasis on killing people... sounds like a proper PrC to me. The FE Assassin might have full BAB, but again, it's lacking the standard Assassin's spells, some of which like wraithstrike and greater invisibility, could very well contribute to a standard Assassin having a higher actual hit rate than a FE Assassin. The d6 hit die, and again, lack of magic, makes him a surprisingly squishy target if any of his opponents are still alive after the first round (which is quite likely if there was more than one to begin with). And again, death ward shuts all of this down pretty handily. Even the nobody is safe ability only bypasses protection against critical hits and sneak attack; it doesn't actually bypass protection specifically against death effects. "Why are we pausing to cast death ward on everybody? Are we expecting necromancers?" "No, we're expecting assassins." "Ah well then, that makes it even more prudent!"
OneWinged4ngel 05-30-07, 02:45 PM	Even a high-level FE Assassin would get mangled by a solar, and/or the full caster who gated it in Too true XD I think you misunderstand me. I wasn't trying to say it was overpowered. I didn't mean to imply that the Assassin was as powerful as a Solar, I was simply wondering if you had realized the potential for a large amount of save or dies in a single attack (and that i seems that it's pretty much the Assassin's only trick to bring to the table, which is kinda "meh" in my book.) Indeed, the one trick is also *easily countered* by any number of spells and effects, which is a bit worrying to me. Until level 5, they'll get completely shut off by a number of enemies where the Rogue won't (he'll still have other options available like UMD to contribute to the party). You might want to consider something that can counteract, you know, a dim room, or a Blur spell. If you don't already just houserule that rogues ignore that whole thing. I can see the value of how you set it up, and I do think that it does a good job of encouraging people to stay in the class (Making the save or die machine class level dependent, and two attractive abilities does a handy job). As for "one trick is good, so long as it's a PrC" I can't think of a lot of good PrCs that this is true for. All the caster PrCs maintain a wide array of options to handle various enemies, as do the maneuver-advancing PrCs. Even something like the Seeker of the Song gains several songs to use. Even the Dervish is going to get to do a lot of stuff with those multiple attacks. Then there's the idea that "one often-countered" trick is good. It's scary if you get hit by it, but it's very easy to not get hit by it. Now, I can see your point on "sacrifice UMD and skills to get better at killing people." I think that's a viable tradeoff, because that's one *role*, not one *trick*. But it's *actually* more narrow than that, as far as I can see, considering the wide array of things that can negate sneak attack/death attack, ranging from Concealment to Fortification to Death Ward (Actually, this doesn't shut it down, even though you say it does... you can still do the paralysis, which is just as good) to Creature Typing, and the fact that it's not just "one role" (combat) but "one trick" (sneak attack save or die/lose machine). If the Assassin fails to be able to pull off sneak attacks, then he doesn't contribute to the fight much more effectively than a Warrior. With knives. Or am I missing something? Additionally, I believe there is a feat that can accomplish something similar to "Nobody is Safe" without the need for a bane weapon (even though I think it does half damage). I'll see if I can find it. Think it might have been in Dungeonscape. And again, death ward shuts all of this down pretty handily. No it doesn't! It only encourages them to use Paralysis instead. The things that shut it down are the things that prevent sneak attack, or if you prevent death *and* paralysis (though that's reallly not a good way to shut it down, because you're taking all that sneak attack damage)
Lotus Crane 05-30-07, 03:04 PM	I didn't mean to imply that the Assassin was as powerful as a Solar, I was simply wondering if you had realized the potential for a large amount of save or dies in a single attack (and that i seems that it's pretty much the Assassin's only trick to bring to the table, which is kinda "meh" in my book.) Well yeah, I'm well aware that theoretically, and with a lot of luck, the FE Assassin could force a victim to make 7+ Fort saves against instant death in a single round. Assuming of course, that he has all the TWF feats and/or maneuvers, that he hits, threatens, and confirms a crit with every attack, that his opponent is flanked and/or flat-footed, and that he's in position for a full attack in the first place. Realistically, he's only going to force an average of 2 saves per round. Compared to everything else out there, I think that's fine. Indeed, the one trick is also *easily countered* by any number of spells and effects, which is a bit worrying to me. Until level 5, they'll get completely shut off by a number of enemies where the Rogue won't (he'll still have other options available like UMD to contribute to the party). Well like I said, it'd be foolish for somebody to view the FE Assassin as a dip PrC, even though death strike is available at 1st level. But until 5th and 10th level, you could always invest in a few items from the MIC which help out even if you can't UMD. As for "one trick is good, so long as it's a PrC" I can't think of a lot of good PrCs that this is true for. All the caster PrCs maintain a wide array of options, as do the maneuver-advancing PrCs. Even something like the Seeker of the Song gains several songs to use. You probably already know why so many people view spellcasting PrC's as broken. Those that are actually balanced, either only grant 9/10 spellcasting progression (omitting it at 1st), or involve other drawbacks (such as the Archmage permanently sacrificing spell slots). PrC's should provide powerful but narrow benefits at the expense of some general abilities, but all too often authors, both on the boards and in WotC itself, don't follow this important design philosophy.
OneWinged4ngel 05-30-07, 03:19 PM	Well yeah, I'm well aware that theoretically, and with a lot of luck, the FE Assassin could force a victim to make 7+ Fort saves against instant death in a single round. Assuming of course, that he has all the TWF feats and/or maneuvers, that he hits, threatens, and confirms a crit with every attack, that his opponent is flanked and/or flat-footed, and that he's in position for a full attack in the first place. Realistically, he's only going to force an average of 2 saves per round. Compared to everything else out there, I think that's fine. Well like I said, it'd be foolish for somebody to view the FE Assassin as a dip PrC, even though death strike is available at 1st level. But until 5th and 10th level, you could always invest in a few items from the MIC which help out even if you can't UMD. You probably already know why so many people view spellcasting PrC's as broken. Those that are actually balanced, either only grant 9/10 spellcasting progression (omitting it at 1st), or involve other drawbacks (such as the Archmage permanently sacrificing spell slots). PrC's should provide powerful but narrow benefits at the expense of some general abilities, but all too often authors, both on the boards and in WotC itself, don't follow this important design philosophy. Heh, I have a terrible habit of editing things extensively immediately after I post them (check it out, I do it on almost all of my posts because I think better when I look at the post for some reason). The post changed quite a bit while you were posting X_X. Check out my last post again. PrC's should provide powerful but narrow benefits at the expense of some general abilities, but all too often authors, both on the boards and in WotC itself, don't follow this important design philosophy. Are you telling me that all of the ToB prestige classes or ALL spellcasting PrCs are horribly overpowered because they give you more ways to handle a challenge in game than just being a one-trick pony? Or ANY prestige class which gives you more than one primary way to handle an enemy? So what's a "good" one-trick pony PrC? Dervish, maybe? Well, the Dervish isn't invalidated half the time or as vulnerable as the assassin, is she. And she can do all manner of things with those multiple attacks. Not as narrow as this assassin. Realistically, he's only going to force an average of 2 saves per round. Compared to everything else out there, I think that's fine. I don't think it's overpowered, I just wondered if you had considered that that was basically the thing the class did. It's basically the whole thing that it's there for, and not much else. I guess I worded it poorly the first time around, but that's what I get for posting in the wee hours of the morning.
Lotus Crane 05-30-07, 03:56 PM	Are you telling me that all of the ToB prestige classes or ALL spellcasting PrCs are horribly overpowered because they give you more ways to handle a challenge in game than just being a one-trick pony? Or ANY prestige class which gives you more than one primary way to handle an enemy? As far the ToB PrC's are concerned, the Jade Phoenix Mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator are hybrid PrC's anyway, which means you start behind, the Master of Nine has excruciating prerequisites, and the Shadow Sun Ninja requires a certain playing style that not all players know how to manage. Also, keep in mind that entering any of those PrC's means you're denying yourself access to each base martial adept's capstone ability, most of which are actually quite desirable. So PrCing isn't an automatic assumption, like it would be with fighters and most spellcasters. As long as a PrC gives up something signficant from the base class, it's okay. So what's a "good" one-trick pony PrC? War Hulk, Hulking Hurler, Master Thrower, Master of the Unseen Hand, Exotic Weapon Master? The Archmage and any less-than-full spellcasting PrC, while not strictly "one-trick," are at least well-balanced. I don't think it's overpowered, I just wondered if you had considered that that was basically the thing the class did. It's basically the whole thing that it's there for, and not much else. Do you feel that as currently written, the FE Assassin is actually underpowered? I wanted to keep it balanced against both the rogue and the standard Assassin, and I do a comparative breakdown in like my third post. If you think it needs something more, what would it be?
OneWinged4ngel 05-30-07, 04:12 PM	War Hulk, Hulking Hurler, Master Thrower, Master of the Unseen Hand, Exotic Weapon Master? The Archmage and any less-than-full spellcasting PrC, while not strictly "one-trick," are at least well-balanced. ...They're not "one-trick" at all. All less-than-full spellcasting PrCs are "very many trick." Master thrower has its share of tricks, and is also a short "toolbox" PrC (short progression to expand the use of throwing weapons) rather than something that's ten full levels. You want a good throwing PrC? Look at something like Bloodstorm Blade. Would have to look at Unseen Hand and Exotic Weapon Master, since I don't remember those offhand. And... wait, you think Hulking Hurler is a WELL DESIGNED and BALANCED PrC? WTF? :eek: :confused: There's a reason no one plays hulking hurlers.
Lotus Crane 05-30-07, 04:35 PM	And... wait, you think Hulking Hurler is a WELL DESIGNED and BALANCED PrC? WTF? :eek: :confused: Well, it's definately one-trick, at any rate. Master Thrower is a valid example though; it's all about fighting with thrown weapons. It does with a couple different abilities and tricks, but ultimately, they're all contributing towards the same end. Likewise, the FE Assassin has one primary goal in mind, but the bonus feats, nobody is safe, and killing edge, give it a larger "toolbox" than other classes, as far as killing enemies via Fort save against death is concerned. But anyway, like I already asked you, what would you add to the FE Assassin if you feel it's too limited?
OneWinged4ngel 05-30-07, 05:00 PM	But anyway, like I already asked you, what would you add to the FE Assassin if you feel it's too limited? Well let me think for a minute. By their very nature, Fire Emblem "classes" are one-dimensional, because of the nature of the series. However, this is D&D, and we want to have our characters do something a bit more worthwhile than macromanagement "basic attack types" because we're not doing macromanagement... we've got one guy. So what do we have for the FE Assassin? He still opens doors and stuff like the Rogue, IIRC, and then he kills people with criticals. He basically evolves from a skillmonkey with mediocre skills to a deadly glass cannon. We start from there, and try to evolve it into a D&D class. I think what you have is a good start; however I would try to give the assassin more options in combat than "I death attack... again." Because that's not fun. So what options do we have? Well, one idea that comes to mind is that you could consider causing more various effects with precision damage. Another is maneuvers, though I doubt you like that idea. Do you feel that as currently written, the FE Assassin is actually underpowered? Possibly. It seems to lack options, so in that respect it has a notable weakness (imagine, for example, a warmage that cast only fire spells. He has issues because suddenly all his enemies are going to be fire resistant. On the *other* hand, you would imagine that an assassin wouldn't want his enemies to know he's coming for them, but this guy doesn't looks to be less sneaky than a Ranger) However, I'd have to research feats and stuff and see what I can really do to make that death attack more versatile. It might be better than I anticipated (this is, after all, basically my initial reaction you're getting), but it'd be reliant on the build. With some method of getting True Seeing, having an artificer or something on hand to get whatever bane type you need (or otherwise getting around typing issues), and somehow being able to get through fort saves, and assuming the enemy can't block out paralysis or death... you can be pretty darn scary. However, there's quite a few ifs involved, and once someone immunizes themselves to your one tactic, you just don't have a lot of other things that you *do.* This is, of course, assuming that the common build for this looks something like Rogue/something for Pounce/Assassin/something for crits or lessening sneak attack's restrictions. However, more than being a power issue, I find that a lack of various combat options is bad design because it's *not as fun.* "I swing my sword... again" vs "I use a maneuver/spell combo to pull off some sweet stunt." The game rewards specialization, but it's fun to have options.
Lotus Crane 05-30-07, 05:32 PM	So what options do we have? Well, one idea that comes to mind is that you could consider causing more various effects with precision damage. Another is maneuvers, though I doubt you like that idea. Actually, I have nothing against the Tome of Battle and martial maneuvers; quite the opposite really. However, I originally wrote this a long time ago, before ToB, and Fire Emblem itself doesn't seem to support a maneuver system as much as say, Final Fantasy or Disgaea would. Adding a limited martial maneuver progression with access to the Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand schools might make sense, but if I did that, I'd feel obligated to lower the BAB back to medium. What do you think?
OneWinged4ngel 05-30-07, 05:44 PM	Actually, I have nothing against the Tome of Battle and martial maneuvers; quite the opposite really. However, I originally wrote this a long time ago, before ToB, and Fire Emblem itself doesn't seem to support a maneuver system as much as say, Final Fantasy or Disgaea would. Well, here's the thing. All Fire Emblem "classes" have one mode of attack. They differ by stats and triangle type. That's it. That doesn't make a good D&D class. You have to elaborate a bit. Adding a limited martial maneuver progression with access to the Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand schools might make sense, but if I did that, I'd feel obligated to lower the BAB back to medium. What do you think? I'm not really a great person to answer this, as my ToB experience is still rather limited.
Rebel581 06-06-07, 10:33 PM	I would love if this were fleshed out into a full PrC. But with needing improved critical, I couldn't go rogue to assassin easily since I'd have to be level 11 to get a BAB of +8. Then I'd have to get to level 12 to get Improved Critical. That's a bit steep of a requirement. I like the premise though. But OneWinged4ngel is right, it does only have one thing it does.
Lotus Crane 06-07-07, 12:04 AM	I would love if this were fleshed out into a full PrC. But with needing improved critical, I couldn't go rogue to assassin easily since I'd have to be level 11 to get a BAB of +8. Well, one of the prerequisites is Improved Critical or Power Critical. Power Critical only has a BAB requirement of +4. Also, because of the greater feat requirements for the FE Assassin over the standard Assassin, the expected entry into the class is actually rogue 3/fighter 2, rather than rogue 5.
Lotus Crane 03-09-08, 09:08 PM	What with 4th Edition being imminent, I thought it'd be fun to flashback to ideas I thought were interesting back when 3.x was all there was.
KaryWanzer 03-20-08, 12:47 AM	:bump: :u: Edit: Hmm, looking at it again with a fresh perspective, after all the other things that have come out recently, you might safely be able to increase the skill points to 6+Int, and add Use Magic Device to the list of class skills again. :w: