Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheOneRonin 04-28-05, 12:14 PM	Greetings all. I have been working on a prestige class that captures the fighting style we see displayed by Achilles in the movie Troy. I wish to be as true to the movie as possible while maintaining at least a sembalance of game balance. So through info gathered through various sources, I've put together a prestige class that I call the Myrmidon Legend. I greatly appreciate any and all input from everyone, good or bad. As a side note, I would like to point out that very little of this material is origial. The core of this class comes from the Runner prestige class as presented in the "Trojan War" supplement by Green Ronin Publishing. I like that class, but I don't think it completely captures exactly what I was looking for. So I took the class and made some significant changes, adding feats I've found on the net and a few home brew ones. I would like to thank those who've created the feats that I've used and posted them on these boards and elsewhere. Let me know who you are, and I will give you full credit on this thread. Also of special note is the person who created the feats Stroke of the War Goddess (which I've renamed to Stroke of the Gods) Power Shot and Lethal Strike which I've altered a bit. I don't know who you are, but if you read this post please let me know and I will give you credit. Anyway, here's the class: MYRMIDON LEGEND http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dd_gallery/dd2/Ares_p107.jpg The Myrmidon Legend is a warrior who specializes in speed. He learns to fight while moving quickly across the battlefield, giving his enemies little time to respond to his attacks. Myrmidon Legends learn agility as well, so they can weave between foes and around obstacles without slowing down. For a Myrmidon Legend, combat is an obstacle course, and he selects a path taking him through the field as quickly as possible, coming close enough to strike before moving away again. Myrmidon Legends are also excellent at fighting with shortsword and shield or shortspear and shield, and know how to use all three to decimate their enemies. Hit Die: D10 Requirements: BAB: +6 Dex: 13 Skills: Jump 8 Ranks Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Run, Phalanx Fighting, Shield Proficiency, Shortsword Proficiency, Spear Proficiency (Any) Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), and Spot (Wis). Skill Points at each level: 2 + Int modifier Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Myrmidon Legend is proficient with all simple weapons, the shortspear, and the shortsword. He is also proficient with light armor and shields. A Myrmidon Legend using any two-handed weapon (except a spear) is unable to use any of his Myrmidon Legend class abilities. Myrmidon Legend Advancement BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities 1. +1 +0 +3 +0 Classic Hoplite Style, Quick Steps 2. +2 +0 +3 +0 Skilled Charge, Agile Runner 3. +3 +1 +4 +1 Improved Mobility, Quick Steps 4. +4 +1 +4 +1 Fast Entry 5. +5 +1 +5 +1 Quick Defense 6. +6 +2 +5 +2 Difficult Target, Quick Steps 7. +7 +2 +6 +2 Unhindered Charge, Greater Mobility 8. +8 +2 +6 +2 Lightning Strike, Improved Quick Defense 9. +9 +3 +7 +3 Lethal Charge, Quick Steps 10.+10 +3 +7 +3 Stroke of the Gods Class Abilities: Quick Steps: At first level, the Myrmidon Legend’s base speed is faster than the norm for his race by +5 feet. The Myrmidon Legend gains an additional +5 feet to his base speed at 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels respectively. These bonuses apply when the Myrmidon Legend is wearing no armor, or light armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the Myrmidon Legend’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. A Barbarian’s fast movement ability stacks with the Myrmidon Legend’s quick steps ability. Classic Hoplite Style: The Myrmidon Legend is an expert in shield&spear and shield&shortsword combat and knows how to use the them in perfect concert. The Myrmidon Legend is able to use a standard Spear (Simple, 1D8, 20/x3) in one hand along with a light or heavy shield in the the other. Also, when fighting with a shield and spear or a shield and shortsword, the Myrmidon Legend treats the spear/shortsword as though he is using it with two hands, getting 1.5 times his normal Str bonus to damage and also getting a two for one bonus on power attack. Skilled Charge: Starting at 2nd level, a Myrmidon Legend adds one-half (round down) his class levels to his damage rolls with a shortsword, spear, or shield on a successful charge attack. If anything grants the Myrmidon Legend the ability to make a full attack at the end of a charge, this extra damage is only applied to his first attack. Also, a Myrmidon Legend no longer takes a penalty to his AC when making a normal charge attack. He still takes the -4 penalty when making a Lethal Charge (see below). Agile runner: Beginning at 2nd level, a Myrmidon Legend may make a number of 90-degree turns during a charge attack equal to his Dex bonus. This ability allows the Myrmidon Legend to charge around corners, avoid combatants and other obstacles while building momentum for the inevitable clash of arms. Improved Mobility: At 3rd level, a Myrmidon Legend can avoid most melee based attacks as long as he keeps moving. His AC bonus from the Mobility feat increases by two to +6. At 7th level, the Myrmidon Legend's AC bonus from the Mobility feat increases by two more to +8. Fast Entry: At 4th level, a Myrmidon Legend learns to enter combat so quickly his opponents cannot react. A Myrmidon Legend gains the Quick Reconnoiter feat even if he does not meet the prerequisites. This stacks with the improved initiative feat. In addition, when taking a RUN action, he no longer provokes AoOs when moving through threatened squares. Quick Defense: At 5th level the Myrmidon Legend is so fast he can dodge blows before they hit him. A Myrmidon Legend gains a +2 dodge bonus to his AC during any round in which he moves more than 5’. In addition, in any round in which the Myrmidon Legend moves twice his base speed or more, he also gains a +2 bonus to his reflex saves. This bonus lasts until the Myrmidon Legend’s next turn. At 8th level, the AC and Reflex save bonuses increase to +4. Difficult Target: At 6th level a Myrmidon Legend is harder to target with ranged attacks. In any round in which the Myrmidon Legend moves twice his base land speed or more, he gains a +4 dodge bonus to AC versus all ranged attacks. This bonus stacks with the one from Quick Defense and Improved Quick Defense, and lasts until the Myrmidon Legend’s next turn. Unhindered Charge: At 7th level, the charge of a Myrmidon Legend is almost unstoppable. At any point during a charge, the Myrmidon Legend can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent of equal size to the Myrmidon Legend or smaller. This ability does not work against any opponent one or more size categories larger than the Myrmidon Legend. This is treated as an overrun with the following differences. 1) It does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and 2) if the opponent attempts to block, the Myrmidon Legend adds his class level to the opposed Str test. Lightning Strike: At 8th level a Myrmidon Legend’s charge is so deadly and surprising that opponents have a hard time reacting to the attack. A Myrmidon Legend’s bonus to his attack rolls when making a normal (not Lethal) charge attack increases to +4 and he deals +1D6 points of damage on the attack. Lethal Charge: At 9th level, the Myrmidon Legend may quickly strike down his foes. As a full round action, a Myrmidon Legend may make a special charge attack with a -4 penalty to his AC for one round. However, he gets to make a single melee attack at a -4 penalty against a number of foes he threatens along the path to his intended target equal to his class level. While performing a Lethal Charge, the Myrmidon Legend does NOT gain the benefits of his Lightning Strike or Undhindered Charge abilities. A Lethal Charge MUST be a continuous straight line, so the Myrmidon Legend cannot make any turns and does not benefit from AGILE RUNNER or any other ability that allow turning during a charge. Also, during a Lethal Charge the Myrmidon Legend must move at least 10' before he is able to attack any foes that he threatens. Please note that a LETHAL CHARGE is a special charge-like action. Any ability that allows the Myrmidon Legend to make a full attack at the end of a charge cannot be used with Lethal Charge. Also, other abilities that grant extra attacks like Cleave cannot be used during a Lethal Charge. Stroke of the Gods: At 10th level, a Myrmidon Legend has learned how to quickly deliver a killing blow to enemy champions and commanders. As a full round action, the Myrmidon Legend makes a special charge at an opponent and must be using a spear or shortsword. When he gets within reach, he makes a 5' move to the side (or forward-diagonal). The Myrmidon Legend then makes a jump check opposed by double the opponents BAB. If the opponent wins the opposed check, he gets an AoO on the Myrmidon Legend. If that AoO hits, the Myrmidon Legend can still make a normal attack, but his Stroke of Gods attempt is foiled. If the Myrmidon Legend wins the opposed check he avoids the AoO and rolls to hit as normal. If the attack is successful, it counts as an automatic critical and the target must make a Fort or Ref save (whichever is higher) vs a DC of 10+1/2 the Myrmidon Legend's Level+the Myrmidon Legend's Str bonus or be instantly reduced to 0 HP. Like Lethal Charge, Stroke of the Gods is a special charge action and abilities that allow the Myrmidon Legend to make a full attack at the end of a charge cannot be used. Nor can the following abilites be used with a Stroke of the Gods attempt: Unhindered Charge, Lightning Strike, or Lethal Charge. This ability is considered a precision-based attack (and thus does not function against undead, constructs, etc) and can only be used against enemies with a discernible anatomy who are no more than one size category larger than the Myrmidon Legend (if the enemy is one size category larger, the Myrmidon Legend takes a -5 penalty to the jump check). Other related Greek Combat Feats: 1) Power Shot: [General] Prerequisites: Power Attack, Str 15 Your skill with throwing the spear and javelin is unequalled. Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may, as a full round action, choose to subtract a number from your ranged attack roll with a spear or javelin and add the double that number to the ranged attack's damage roll. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. A spear thrown using this feat is impossible to catch or deflect. Note: It is not possible to use this feat while throwing a spear caught in the same round. 2) Close Quarters Expertise: [Fighter] Prerequisites: Weapon Focus Shortsword, Improved Shield Bash, BAB: +6 You are skilled in getting in close to an opponent and using your shield to keep him from bringing his weapon to bear. Benefit: To use this feat, you must be using a shield and you must first enter your opponent’s square and incur an AoO from this movement. If the opponent’s AoO is successful, you immediately move back to your own square and cannot use this feat for the rest of the round. If the opponent’s AoO fails, you immediately make an opposed attack roll. If you succeed, you have pinned your opponents weapon and they lose any Dex/Dodge/Fighting Defensively/Total Defense/Combat Expertise bonuses to AC until their next action. You can make a full attack against the opponent at their reduced AC. If you fail the opposed attack roll, the opponent maintains their full AC, but must move out of your square if they wish to use any large size or larger weapons. This feat is ineffective against opponents with natural weapons or those fighting unarmed. 3) Shield Specialization [General] Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency, BAB: +6 Benefit: Once per round, a shield bearer can make a single shield bash attack at his highest BAB and without incurring any penalties for two weapon fighting, but still loses the shield’s AC bonus until his next turn (unless he also has Improved Shield Bash). 4) Shield Swing [General] Prerequisite: Str 13, Shield Proficiency Benefit: You are adept at shield use and can pull a shield form your back, swing it around, slip your arms through the straps, grip the hand strap, and be ready to use the shield as a free action. Normal: Readying a shield is a move action. Again, I'd like to reitierate that very little presented here is completely original. I do not wish to take any credit for the work of others. If you see any of your creations here, please let me know and I will either give you credit, or remove them at your request. Thank you for your understanding. [edit]Added link to Wayne Reynolds website with image. [edit]5/2/05: Rearranged the levels at which certain abilities are gained. [edit]5/2/05: Fast Movement renamed Quick Steps and changed slightly (thanks to Mordin) [edit]5/2/05: Unhindered charge re-worded an toned down. No longer usable with Lethal Charge and can no longer be used against larger opponents. [edit]5/2/05: Lethal Charge moved to a higher level ability and now # of attacks are limited by Myrmidon's level. Can no longer be used with Unhindered Charge. [edit]5/2/05: Stroke of the Gods fixed to be more balanced. Slightly altered from Mordin's build. Also included text from BlainToq's suggestion [edit]5/2/05: Added Phalanx Fighting as a prerequisite. [edit]5/10/05: Changed Fort Save from Good to Poor. [edit]5/10/05: Combined Momentum with Skilled charge, edited text for balance. [edit]5/10/05: Changed Agile Runner to one 90 degree turn per point of Dex mod. [edit]5/10/05: Changed Evasion so it doesn't stack with other Evasion abilities. [edit]5/10/05: Added balance text to Lethal Charge. [edit]5/10/05: Revised Stroke of the Gods again in an attempt to Balance. [edit]5/10/05: Added line that prohibits a Myrmidon from using the Skirmish ability with any of the other Myrmidon abilities. [edit]5/13/05: Changed my mind about the Skirmish ability. Deleted relevent text [edit]5/13/05: Edited Classic Hoplite ability so it works with the Shortspear AND Shortsword. [edit]5/13/05: Edited Fast Entry to include the benefits of the Quick Reconnoiter feat. [edit]6/01/05: Edited Classic Hoplite to allow the Myrmidon to use a standard spear in one hand. [edit]6/03/05: Removed the EVASION class feature and replaced it with Improved Mobility and Greater Mobility
Kynn Elfson 04-28-05, 12:57 PM	although you may not take credit for the ideas presented, I say, you did a pretty rad job on designing it, I would love to play it for sure :D
TheOneRonin 04-28-05, 01:52 PM	Thanks for the Kudos. Again, the core design credit belongs to Green Ronin Publishing. But there are a few things that are originally mine. The Classic Hoplite Style (originally a General Feat), Close Quarters Expertise, and Shield Specialization are all mine. The rest belongs to others. And yes, I think he would be a blast to play. Espeically in a combat heavy/high enemy count/war based campaign. He would probably be less useful in a traditional dungeon crawl, but who knows. If anyone decides to play test this class, please let me know how it goes. Again, thanks for the input.
Kynn Elfson 04-28-05, 01:55 PM	In a normal campaign, I think he would excel as a specialist/shock trooper/mage killer. Think about the scene on the beach, when the mymidon's raid the temple of apollo, they loot the place and fight sneaky enemies, throw in an Orc Captain, a couple of undead, and a +3 Spear of Throwing and you got yourself a nice little scenario.
TheOneRonin 04-28-05, 02:16 PM	I agree. That whole beach fight was phenomenal. The way Achilles moved and fought...it was effortless. He never stopped or slowed down, and he always had his shield right where he needed it, even throwing it on his back to stop two arrows being fired at him while in the middle of a fight. That scene is pretty much the inspiration for this whole class. Then again, I do realize that we were watching the equivilent of a 20th level fighter taking out 1st and 2nd level warriors, but it was still thrilling. I hope I've managed to capture that spirit with this class. Seeing as how I'm the full time DM for my group, I'm not likely to be able to play this class any time soon, but I hope someone has a chance to.
Kynn Elfson 04-28-05, 02:44 PM	you definatly caught the essence of the character! And remember, you're the DM you can do anything!! Say the pc's are in a foreign land and they meet up with a stalwart warrior who is befriended by the pc's and guides them through the land, a simple NPC is suddenly the DMC!! :D
TheOneRonin 04-28-05, 03:10 PM	You know, I try to stay away from running DM PCs. I don't believe in stealing the thunder from the players...it's up to them to make the decisions and be the heroes. Kick-a$$ DM PCs tend to steal the spotlight and sort of takes away from the experience of the rest of the players. Beleive me, back in the day I ran into many DMs who's PC's where the best since sliced bread. Didn't leave much way for my character to be the hero. At any rate, it's not a bad idea for a villian, though. Espeically if the campaign is set in the middle of war/battle.
Kynn Elfson 04-28-05, 04:52 PM	ahhh true enough, when I was young I ran a dm pc a couple of times, I concentrated on my pc rather than everything else. But we learn from out mistakes. no harm no foul and all that jazz
*Truean* 04-29-05, 12:30 AM	this is actually very good
Dragon Master Zero 04-29-05, 12:39 AM	"Stroke of the Gods" is the coolest ability EVER!
PlutoniumKnight 04-29-05, 01:06 AM	Maybe limit Stroke of the Gods somewhat, you will almost certainly have maxed out ranks and a comptence item and most people would't have a sense motive high enough, a free Coup De Grace instead of a normal charge, please limit the times per day, or some other balancing factor.
Mordin 04-29-05, 02:14 AM	I have to agree with the "knight" on the stroke of the gods ability other than thant I would have to say mix this with the Scout core class and youve got one dangerous individual.
TheOneRonin 04-29-05, 09:04 AM	On second look, yeah, I suppose that Stroke of the Gods is a little over the top. Based on what you guys have suggested, I have two possible ways to change it. 1.) Leave it as is, but limit it to 3 times per day. It's still pretty powerful, though. A 10th level Myrmidon will be at LEAST a 16th level character, which means a Jump check of at least 19+Str. A Paladin is the only 1/1 BAB class that gets Sense Motive as a class skill, so anyone else is going to be hard pressed to beat that. And it's almost a sure kill on arcane casters. 2.) Allow ulimited uses, but instead of the target rolling BAB + Sense Motive, have them roll double BAB. I like this change for several reasons. First off, limiting an ability like this to a few times per day is pure metagame thinking/balancing. In real life, someone who knew how to do this maneuver could do it as often as they want. To me, it makes much more sense to limit it in other ways that are more consistant with RL and don't strain my suspension of disbelief so much. Secondly, this gives the edge to those with high BABs. This makes sense because the higher BAB you have, the more skilled/experienced combatant you are, and the better you are able to avoid/counter your opponents moves. This makes the ability easier to pull off on lower level opponents, but tougher to pull off on higher level ones...as it should be. In this case, it would be challenging to even pull this move off on a 10th level fighter, who would be rolling a D20+20 when opposing your jump check. Thridly, this makes it fall right in line with the movie. Boagrius was big and strong, but probably not extremely skilled. So he fell for this move when Achilles attempted it. However, Hector was the best warrior in all of Troy. He was able to react to this move and stop it with his shield. Also keep in mind that due to the fact that this feat requires a charge, it's not likely to be used more than once in a round vs. a single enemy. So, what are your thoughts and opinions on this?
TheOneRonin 04-29-05, 09:48 AM	Here's another thing to think about. I was wondering about how survivable a coup de grace hit from a Myrmidon might be, so I threw together some numbers, and it came out down-right scarey. Start with a human Myrmidon (FTR6/MYR10) with no magic equipment of any kind, and the following stats: STR 22 (base 18 @ 1st level, then bumped up @ 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th) Feats: Powerful Charge, Greater Powerful Charge. Attack bonus on a charge: +26 (BAB+STR+Lighning Strike) Damage: 1d6 (short spear) +9 (1.5 x STR thanks to Classic Hoplite) +5 (.5 x Myrmidon level thanks to Momentum) +1D6 (thanks to Lightning Strike) +2D6 (thanks to Greater Powerful Charge) Total: 4D6+14 (18-38 damage) Now a coup de grace is an automatic critical. The Crit on a shortspear is x2, so for crit damage we have: (1D6+14)x2 +3D6 Total: 33-58 damage That gives us a Fort save of 43-68...well nigh impossible for just about any non-epic character/monster. And that doesn't even count things like magic weapon echantments or buff spells or even power attack (which would be REALLY nasty). So how about this...we make it a "special" coup de grace, with the Fort Save DC at either 10 + one half (round down) damage or maybe even just have the DC be one half base damage. That cuts down a bit on the power of the ability while still making the Fort tough to make. So what are your thoughts?
Mordin 04-29-05, 11:09 AM	Were you are using the BAB of the myrmidon so mush how about a DC = Myrmidon's BAB + Str modifier This with the build you suggested would be a DC 22 at 16th level witch for anybody other than a 'warrior" type would be hard pressed to make hope it helps this class is very cool
Mordin 04-29-05, 11:17 AM	Should of read a little before posting. I think that using half the damage sounds good. Even thow its "unrealistic" I still think limiting some say a number of times per day equall to say his/her BAB divided 4 giving a day at 16th level and he/she will get meaner with this ability even into epic levels.
TheOneRonin 04-29-05, 01:41 PM	Should of read a little before posting. I think that using half the damage sounds good. Even thow its "unrealistic" I still think limiting some say a number of times per day equall to say his/her BAB divided 4 giving a day at 16th level and he/she will get meaner with this ability even into epic levels. Lots of people find limiting abilites to x uses/day an excellent way to balance them. From a purely mechanical standpoint it works very well. However, I personally don't care for it at all. The limitation is too artifical, and there's no really good way to explain such a limit "in-game". With arcane or divine based abilities, it's easy. But this is simply a high-level fighting technique. There is no real reason why it should be limited EXCEPT for game balance. And in my mind, there are many other ways to limit that ability that work much better. Picture this: Odysseus: Achilles, see that Trojan commander over there? If you can kill him, it will throw his troops in disarray and grant us a swift victory! Achilles: Sorry pal. I've used up my max number of killing blows for the day. Can't do that again until sunrise. Until then, I'll be in my tent. Good luck! I know that's a bit much, but you get the idea. One other thing about artifical limits is the way it affects the players. PCs tend to horde such abilities until they are positive they will really need them. It encourages metagaming to take over. "I know this orc commander isn't the adventure boss, so I'm gonna save my Stroke of the Gods uses until later on." What's the point of such an ability if players will almost never use it?
DarknessEternal 04-29-05, 06:54 PM	This PrC has way too many abilities. 14 abilities (not to mention the fast movement), many of which are awesome, is too many to pack into 10 levels of a PrC. Nothing gets that many class abilities in such a small amount of levels.
Mordin 04-30-05, 10:58 AM	Yes I understand that the x/day is unrealistic and you make a good point but I can see this ability get abused. Odysseus: Achilles, see that Trojan commander over there? If you can kill him, it will throw his troops in disarray and grant us a swift victory! Oh and while your at it use that ability you have and continue killing high level officers one after the next untill my reinforcements can reach you. Achilles: Uhhhh OK I love this class but because its a game it dose need some balance and the ability to kill in a single stroke is very mean. JMO thow
Rogue Newb 04-30-05, 12:14 PM	There is a tactical feat in CW that deals with being in shield walls and such. You should require it. Hoplites invented the shieldwall. And it balances it some more by making it nigh impossible to fit in any Spellcaster levels with that many feats. Anyway a nice way to power up a ahigh level fighhter.
BlaineTog 04-30-05, 01:56 PM	Cool class. Overpowered, but cool. Most of the abilities are fine, except for these ones: Fast Movement: At first level, the Myrmidon’s base speed is faster than the norm for his race by +5 feet. The Myrmidon gains an additional +5 feet to his base speed at 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th levels respectively. These bonuses apply when the Myrmidon is wearing no armor, or light armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the Myrmidon’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. A Barbarian’s fast movement ability stacks with the Myrmidon’s fast movement ability.This seems a bit obscene. +25 to his base speed would be powerful enough, except he's assumed to be chanrging a lot, and once he gets Lethal Blow, you're looking at far too many potential kills. +5 or maybe +10 would be more than enough. Lethal Charge: At 6th level, the Myrmidon may quickly strike down his foes. As a full round action, a Myrmidon may make a special charge attack with a -4 penalty to his AC for one round. However, he gets to make a single melee attack at a -4 penalty against every foe he threatens along the path to his intended target. At 9th level, the attack penalty for Lethal Charge is reduced to -2. The AC penalty is not affected.As I said, this is too powerful considering how far his charge is gonna take him, and since he can change direction a lot. It could be fixed by making him winded afterwards (maybe -2 penalty to Str, Dex, and Reflex saves for 1d4 or 1d3 rounds) and reducing his base speed. Unhindered Charge: At 7th level, the charge of a Myrmidon is almost unstoppable. At any point during a charge, the Myrmidon can attempt to move through a squared occupied by an opponent. This is treated as an overrun with the following differences. 1) It does not provoke an attack of opportunity, 2) if the opponent attempts to block, the Myrmidon adds his class level to the opposed Str test, and 3) the Myrmidon can choose to not allow the opponent to avoid.Far, far, FAR too good. Remove all three diferences and it'll be fine. Stroke of the Gods: At 10th level, a Myrmidon has learned how to quickly deliver a killing blow to enemy champions and commanders. As a full round action, the Myrmidon charges an opponent using a spear or shortsword. When he gets within reach, he makes a 5' move to the side (or forward-diagonal). The Myrmidon then makes a jump check opposed by the opponent’s sense motive + BAB. If he wins the opposed check he avoids the AoO and rolls to hit as normal. If successful, the hit is treated like a coup de grace.This one, however, takes the cake. Here's how the balance it: Stroke of the Gods: At 10th level, a Myrmidon has learned how to quickly deliver a killing blow to enemy champions and commanders. As a full round action, the Myrmidon charges an opponent using a spear or shortsword. When he gets within reach, he makes a 5' move to the side (or forward-diagonal). This provokes an Attack of Opportunity. If the AoO hits and deals 10% or more of the Mymidon's maximum health, the ability fails. The Myrmidon then makes a jump check opposed by the opponent’s sense motive check + BAB. If the Myrmidon succeeds, he rolls an attack against the enemy. If the attack is succesful, he deals damage as normal and the enemy must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Myrmidon level + Strength mod) or die. This ability is considered a precision-based attack (and thus does not function against undead, constructs, etc) and can only be used against enemies with a discernible anatomy who are no more than one size category larger than the Myrmidon (if the enemy is one size category larger, the Myrmidon takes a -5 penalty to the jump check).Yep. Much more complicated. But much less broken. The one you have up there now is just too good.
*Truean* 04-30-05, 02:34 PM	What's actually kinda sad (other than the fact that so few will really appreciate this): Achillies didn't have a "fighting style" Achillies had a frame of mind Achillies said, "I am good enough to do anything." Achillies accomplished incredible things. Achillies was great for that and because he choose to take pity on Piram when everything told him he shouldn't. Translation, he took the high road in the end.... Later Truean
bossloki 04-30-05, 05:41 PM	Lethal charge is way too strong; especially combined with fast movement. At 9th level he can possibly make 331 attacks with all of them at only -2 to hit and -4 to AC. With a normal 30' movement it would still be 181. With Agile runner that number can go up yet again. By charging through a battle field a few times he can potentially cripple an army. If you have three opponents in adjacent squares the myrmidon can attack all three. He can go through the middle square (With unhindered charge) and still threaten all three opponents. Now, multiply that by the number of sqaures he can move in a charge. And I haven't even added the speed bonuses of expeditious retreat or haste. I would suggest limiting lethal charge to one extra attack per class level and possibly one use per conflict. But I have to admit I still like the class. Good Job!
Mordin 04-30-05, 08:55 PM	Phalanx Fighter, Dash, Fleet of Foot, Brutal Throw and Power Throw are all feats in the Com. Warriors and Com. Adventurers. You should take a look at these feats they replace alot of abilities in this class. It might help balance this class a bit. Still love this class thow.
Kynn Elfson 05-01-05, 02:17 AM	um....... Achilles was the son of Zeus. Don't talk to me about over powered. He. Was. The. Son. Of. Zeus. (and yes I knwo it says otherwise in the movie.....but there are differing views, as is the case with most things mythological.) Achilles was the half brother of Hercules, this class portrays Achilles character very accuratly. You have to consider his use of STROKE OF THE GODS, Achilles was a man who wanted greatness, whose greatest fear was to be forgotten, so keeping that in mind, he obviously could run around the battle field killing all the major players, but.......why? He can beat them all without batting an eye. He was friggen Achilles. That was his signature move, why use it on the common fodder, the unwashed masses. He was a man devoted to his cause, his cause was greatness. Good day.
Kynn Elfson 05-01-05, 02:20 AM	Although, I love this class, I must say it doesn't portray the rest of the Myrmidon's very efficiently. They were basically the best of the best of the few and the proud!! Fast. Deadly. Efficient. But nothing like Achilles.
bossloki 05-01-05, 05:24 AM	The creators stated intent was to portray the fighting style of Achilles (not Achilles himself) while trying to maintain balance. Besides in the myths he was invulnerable due to being dunked in the river styx as an infant. So if you follow that line of thought his AC was pretty much irrelevent; because except for his heels he couldn't be hurt. That was his primary "power" as a warrior. But that's off the subject. This PRC is well thought out and seems like it will be a lot of fun to play.
ShadowNinja 05-01-05, 06:05 AM	My D+D group ( I play a swashbuckler) was just leveling up when I read this PrC. I met all the pre-requisits. And so I took the PrC. It is amazing. I am not tenth level in it (Just 1st) But even then it adds so much flavor. I get to describe just how I kill people in fancy ways! The swashbucler's Acrobatic Charge works very well for this character. My final comment: This PrC rocks! Though it might need some balancing at higher levels. Because at higher levels :fight!: (Myrmidon) vs :invasion: (enemy army) = :pile: of soldiers.
*Truean* 05-01-05, 08:30 AM	Son of Zeus? Where'd you get that? Achillies was the son of a moral man: abeit a king (hence why he was a prince and had a kingdom). His mother was Thetis (spelling?) who was a sea nymph who helped Zeus out once. She dipped Achillies in a river (some say with ambrosia flowing in it) by his ankle to make him immortal. Well, we all know that he was immortal except for one spot: el ankle, which is otherwise known as the achillies heel.... Thetis had to beg Zeus to help Achillies by making the agrives (Greeks) loose to learn humility and call in a favor.... She did this because her son was stripped of his prize girl (litterally... times were a little different back then) for no other reason than the greed of Agamemnon (spelling?). So, no not the son of Zeus to my knowledge.... Check out the Illiad.... There could be some ideas in there that could help you out with this: though he is refered to as: "the godlike runner" a thousand freaking times. Achillies also had a tendency to go nuts and just start killing things or doing things that were just plain odd. Take a look at the chapter on how he "fought a river." Later Truean
Mordin 05-01-05, 08:50 PM	This is an awesome class but like many others feal its overpowered. So I figured I would try and "fix" it while still keeping its general flavor. To "TheOneRonin" unbelevable class its awesome Myrmidon Requirements: Alignment: Any Base Attack Bonus: +7 Skills: Jump 10 ranks. Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Run, Fleet of Foot, Weapon Proficiency (simple), Weapon Proficiency (shortsword), Armor Proficiency (light), Shield Proficiency. Class Features: BAB: Good (as fighter) Good Saves: Fort and Reflex Poor Saves: Will Hit Dice: 1d10 Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str). Skill Points at Each Level: 2+ Int modifier. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Myrmidon gains no additional proficiencies. LEVEL ABILITIES: 1. Classic Hoplite Style, quick steps 2. Momentum, agile runner 3. Evasion, ready shield, quick steps 4. Fast entry, agile defense, agile runner 5. Bonus feat 6. Skilled charge, agile runner, quick steps 7. Bonus feat 8. Lethal charge, agile runner 9. Quick steps 10. Stroke of the gods Classic Hoplite Style: The Myrmidon is an expert in shield and shortspear combat and knows how to use these two weapons in perfect harmony. When fighting with a shield and shortspear, a Myrmidon treats any shortspear he/she wields as though he/she is using it two-handed, gaining the 1.5 strength bonus to damage while wielding the shortspear one-handed. Quick Steps (Ex): A Myrmidon is taught that to win a fight its best to do it quickly. At 1st level, a Myrmidon gains a +5 to his/her base movement. He/she gains an additional +5 to his/her base movement at 3rd, 6th and 9th level. This ability stacks with all other similar abilities (such as a barbarian’s fast movement). Momentum (Ex): At 2nd level, a Myrmidon gains a bonus to damage equal to ½ his/her class level (round down) on a successful charge attack. He/she only gains this bonus with a shortsword, shortspear, light armor and/or shield. Agile Runner (Ex): At 2nd level, a Myrmidon becomes even more agile on his/her feet. He/she may make an additional 90-degree direction change during a charge. This ability stacks with the Fleet of Foot feat. This ability allows a Myrmidon to charge around corners, avoid combatants and other obstacles while still building momentum for the inevitable clash of arms. He/she may make an additional 90-degree direction change at 4th, 6th and 8th level. Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level, A Myrmidon can avoid damage from certain attacks with a successful Reflex save (see the monk class feature, page 41 of the Player’s Handbook). Ready Shield (Ex): At 3rd level, a Myrmidon becomes so familiar with his/her shield that he/she can equip a stowed shield as a free action (this dose not include a tower shield). Fast Entry (Ex): At 4th level, a Myrmidon learns to enter combat so quickly that his/her opponents have a difficult time reacting. Myrmidons gain a +2 circumstance bonus to initiative (this stack with other feats and abilities such as Improved Initiative). Agile Defense (Ex): At 4th level, a Myrmidon becomes more difficult to hit while on the move. A Myrmidon gains a +2 circumstance bonus to his/her AC during any round in which he/she moves more than 5’. In addition, he/she also gains a +2 circumstance bonus to all reflex saving throws when performing a double move action. This bonus last until the Myrmidons next turn. At 8th level the bonus gained by this abilitie improves to +4. Bonus Feat: At 5th level, a Myrmidon gains the Spring Attack feat as a bonus feat. Skilled Charge (Ex): At 6th level, a Myrmidon no longer suffers the -2 AC penalty when performing a charge action (this ability dose not affect a Lethal Charge, see bellow). Bonus Feat: At 7th level, Myrmidon gains the Phalanx Fighter feat as a bonus feat. Lethal Charge (Ex): At 8th level, a Myrmidon learns a special charge. He/she gains +4 bonus on the attack roll but suffers a -4 penalty to his/her AC until the start of the next round. In addition, the Myrmidon gains a +1d6 damage on the charge for every 10’ moved before the attack (any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to the extra damage from this charge). Stroke of the Gods (Ex): At 10th level, a Myrmidon has learned to quickly deliver death to his/her enemies. As a full round action, a charging Myrmidon using a shortsword or shortspear can perform a special feint. When he/she reaches an opponent during a charge he/she moves 5’ to one side of the target provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attack of opportunity succeeds the ability is wasted and the Myrmidon attack as usual. If the attack of opportunity fails the Myrmidon makes a jump check opposed by the targets sense motive check + BAB. If the Myrmidon succeeds, he/she rolls an attack against the enemy. If the attack is successful the target takes damage as usual and must make a fortitude or reflex save (whichever is higher) (DC = 10 + ½ the Myrmidons class level + his/her strength modifier) or die(any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to this ability).
BlaineTog 05-01-05, 09:26 PM	Mordin, *That* is a balanced class. Good job fixing it. :king:
TheOneRonin 05-02-05, 09:30 AM	Thanks for all of the fantastic input. You guys pointed out a lot of things I had not thought of, and gave me plenty of creative ways to fix the initial probelms. I've edited the opening post to reflect the changes I've made. Here are my reasons for what I've done: First, to BlaineToq: RE: Fast Movement This seems a bit obscene. +25 to his base speed would be powerful enough, except he's assumed to be chanrging a lot, and once he gets Lethal Blow, you're looking at far too many potential kills. +5 or maybe +10 would be more than enough. Well, seeing as how a maxed out Myrmidon (FTR6/MYR10) would have a base move of 55' and an equal level Monk (MNK16) has a base move of 80', I don't think the movment ability in itself is overly powerful. Again, as originally written, the further a Myrmidon could travel on a Lethal Charge, the more potential enemies he could attack. That's one of the reasons I changed Lethal Charge. RE: Lethal Charge As I said, this is too powerful considering how far his charge is gonna take him, and since he can change direction a lot. It could be fixed by making him winded afterwards (maybe -2 penalty to Str, Dex, and Reflex saves for 1d4 or 1d3 rounds) and reducing his base speed. You make a very good point. That's one of the main reasons why I changed Lethal Charge. However, I think making the Myrmidon winded afterwards goes against the spirit of the class. RE: Unhindered Charge Far, far, FAR too good. Remove all three diferences and it'll be fine. Hehe...remove all three and the ability isn't even as good as the Improved Overrun feat. Heck, remove all three and you don't have any special ability whatsoever. Personally, I feel that this ability in itself isn't overpowered. What made it overpowered was being able to combine it with Lethal Charge. So I fixed that. I also dropped the 3rd benefit of the ability. That keeps it from stepping on the toes of the Improved Overrun feat. Also I specified in the text that a Myrmidon can NOT use this ability to move through the square of a target larger than him. This was intended in the origial build, but I forgot to include it. Again, before you think an ability such as this is overpowered, you might want to check on what other classes can do that is similar. A 13th level Monk with maxed ranks in Tumble can essentially do the same thing, but moving at a base speed of 35 (1/2 the 13th level Monk's normal 70 base speed) with a simple DC 25 tumble check. Let's see...max ranks in tumble would be 16, plust at least an 18 dex by that level is +20. And the Monk can do that with no special Feat or other ability. RE: Stroke of the Gods This one, however, takes the cake. Here's how the balance it: <balance text snipped> Again, I see exactly the point you make. However, I chose to go a bit different route than you suggested. I did use your text about it being a precision attack, though. However, I believe that one's battle awareness is what would save a target from this ability, that's why I dumped sense motive altogether and made the roll DOUBLE BAB. The more combat seasoned the target is, the less likely they are to fall to this ability. Oh, and Mordin...great build! It's still not exactly the way I would like it, but I would bet most DMs would allow your build in their games way before they would allow mine. Finally, I've done some looking through the core (PHB only) classes to see how this prestige class synergizes with them. However, i don't have all of the COMPLETE line of books, so I don't know much about the other base classes. Can anyone give me some details on classes that would work well as the foundation for a Myrmidon? Also, please let me know if there are any classes who's abilities synergize TOO well with the Mrymidon's and should not be allowed to take any Myrmidon levels.
ShadowNinja 05-02-05, 12:02 PM	I think I said this earlier, but uhhh. Swashbuckler. (Complete Warrior) They are sort of the same idea, just imaging the Swashbuckler slightly differently then a pirate and you get Achiless (Flashy, Egoistical...) So yeah, they synergize well. :D
Maraxus 05-02-05, 02:18 PM	The class is nice. It has the "unique fighting stile" I miss at so many fighter PrCs. It has prestige!!! However, it is hopelessly overpowered. I think a medium BAB would be a good point to begin balancing it. Than you need something to lower the power of the first levels, who are even more powerful per level. A myrmidon should be more powerful than average fighter bob. Just not more powerful per level! Therefor I would suggest, you take this abilities and arange them over 20 levels and have a core class. Make sure, it is not front loaded.
TheOneRonin 05-02-05, 04:42 PM	The class is nice. It has the "unique fighting stile" I miss at so many fighter PrCs. It has prestige!!! However, it is hopelessly overpowered. I think a medium BAB would be a good point to begin balancing it. Than you need something to lower the power of the first levels, who are even more powerful per level. A myrmidon should be more powerful than average fighter bob. Just not more powerful per level! Therefor I would suggest, you take this abilities and arange them over 20 levels and have a core class. Make sure, it is not front loaded. I can certianly see how this class has an edge in combat ability over many others, though I am curious as to what exactly you think makes it hoplessly overpowered. First off, make sure you've re-read the build since my revisions. I took into account many of the opinions of those who posted, and even followed some of their suggestions. Most of what was considered criminally out of balance has been corrected. In light of the revisions, I still fail to see what is overpowered about the class. Here are a few things to consider. 1.) Most of the class abilites revolve around/require charging. This means that aside from the Lethal Charge ability, this class will usually be limited to one attack per round. And as for Lethal Charge, well as written it is extremely sub-par when compared to Whirlwind attack. a.) Whirlwind attack has 4 feats as prerequisites, can be gained by 6th level, allows a single attack at highest BAB vs. up to 8 opponents (16 if using a reach weapon, 24 if using a spiked chain) with no attack or AC penalty, and the use of the feat itself provokes no AoO. b.) Lethal charge requires AT LEAST 15 character levels to get access to, allows a single attack at highest BAB (with a -4 penalty to hit and a -4 penalty to AC) vs. up to 10 opponents, and the movement through threatened spaces itself provokes AoOs from every opponent you hit but do not kill. Like I said, FAR inferior to Whirlwind Attack. So far inferior, in fact, that I think I might revise it again. 2.) A Myrmidon is limited to Light Armor if he wants to make use of most of his class abilities. Even with the AC bonuses from Quick Defense and Difficult Target, the Myrmidon will still be behind an equal level Fighter, Paladin, or Cleric in terms of Armor Class. 3.) A Myrmidon has a poor will save, and is just as subject to spells and abilities that call for such. A Hold Person spell is just as likely to ruin the Myrmidon's day as it is the Fighter's day. 4.) Vs. Flying opponents. There you go...boom, almost all abilities down the drain. Stroke of the Gods...yes, it's a pretty powerful ability. For a 10th level prestige class (16th+ character level) ability, it should be. Again, it's something that's only available as part of a charge action, which means at MAXIMUM it can be used once per round. Secondly, any High BAB NPC within a few levels of the Myrmidon should have a very good chance of avoiding the attack in the first place. A 15th level fighter rolls a D20+30 vs. the Myrmidon's jump check. Sounds like the fighter has the advantage. Don't even get me started on what casters can do to counter this. The spirit of Stroke of the Gods is to give the high level Myrmidon a way to dispatch mid-level threats with a single attack. Opponents that are 3-5 hit die/levels lower than the Myrmidon should be the primary targets for said ability. As for the other abilities, well I just don't see how they can be considered over powered. The Myrmidon will be attacking less and doing less damage than the Greatsword specialized Whirlwind Cleaving Fighter and will be moving less than the missile deflecting, flurrying Monk. Again, if you can give me some concrete examples of what abilities qualify as overpowered, I will be more than glad to re-examine them. Oh, and as a side note, giving a medium BAB progression to a class who's primary and ONLY focus is combat seems to be incredibly silly.
Maraxus 05-04-05, 08:59 PM	Okay, I'm always happy to help: Hit Die: D10, Good BAB, Fort and Ref Save Okay, allready better than any core class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency/Restrictions One should compare the Myrmidon with the ranger. It's the best class anyway. :) Class Abilities: Quick Steps: +20ft movement. Very good. Classic Hoplite Style: Basicly this means he gets his complead shield bonus for free. Okay, later, the availabily of animated shields reduces the effect of this, however, than shield attacks become useful. Quite a powerful ability. Momentum: Okay, +1 to +5 damage on charges. Nice. Skilled Charge: Nice, too. Agile runner: Again, a little, useful ability. Evasion: As said, we compare to the ranger. He get's this ability on 9th level, the Myrmidon on 3rd. Fast Entry: +2 bonus to their initiative checks: Okay. RUN action does no longer provokes AoOs: Powerful!!! Quick Defense: Another good ability. Difficult Target: Not as good as Quick defence but still nice. Unhindered Charge: Overrun is not very useful, so I have no problem with that. Lightning Strike: Total +4 attack, +8.5 on damage from charges. Lethal Charge: This is the best ability. Much better than whirlwind. Whirlwind hits about 3 targets, normally - if you can herd them together. Maybe 6 with a spiked chain, we didn't have someone like this jet. But with this ability (and quick steps and agile runner), you should be able to hit them all (Or. Hm, I'm just seeing, that fast entry does not help. But nevertehless.. Stroke of the Gods: Hm, the main roll is Jump vs. 2*BAB. First, BAB is not total attack. Then the Jump-spell, cast by a 9th level caster adds +30 to this check. So basicly you can choose to force your opponent to make a difficult save or die. So, we have 6 really good abilities, and 6 useful, minor abilities. Comparing this with the ranger - let's say levels 6-15, we have: 4 good abilities (none as good as Classic Hoplite Style, Lethal Charge or Stroke of the Gods, however) and 4 minor abilities (and again, I don't thing these abilities are as good as quick defense or lightning strike). And if a class surpasses the ranger like this...let's not compare it with the fighter. Okay "hopelessly overpowered" was to quick judged - but "to strong to allow it" still aplies, in my eyes.
Mordin 05-05-05, 11:35 AM	First glad I could help Second if you can’t afford it quite yet at least go and read the Scout class in the Com. Adventurers. IMO it’s the best core class you could use for the Myrmidon. Allot of the Ideas I got for the revision I did, were from the feats in Com. Warriors-you should check it out too. One of the reasons I cut out some of the abilities was some sound similar to one another (like quick defense & difficult target), and as far as "balance" it gives allot of abilities in a short amount of time IMO. That being said, again go take a look at the Scout class.
Mordin 05-05-05, 11:40 AM	Here Maraxus maybe this will work if you looked at my original revision Ive "added" an ability and, at least IMO balanced the other. Deadly Charge (Ex): At 8th level, a Myrmidon learns a special charge. He/she gains +4 bonus on the attack roll but suffers a -4 penalty to his/her AC until the start of the next round. In addition, the Myrmidon gains a +1d6 damage on the charge for every 10’ moved before the attack (any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to the extra damage from this charge). Lethal Charge (Ex): At 9th level, a Myrmidon has learned to strike down multiple enemies during a charge. As a full round action, a Myrmidon may attack a number of enemies he/she passes during a charge equal to ½ his/her class level (round down). The Myrmidon makes these attacks at his/her full base attack bonus with a -4 penalty and suffers a -4 penalty to his/her AC. He/she must move at least 10’ before attacking any foes with this ability. This action provokes attacks of opportunity from all targets that threaten him/her (a deadly charge may not be used during a lethal charge).
TheOneRonin 05-05-05, 12:52 PM	You make a couple of good points, but let's see if I can elaborate on some of the points you've made. Okay, I'm always happy to help: Hit Die: D10, Good BAB, Fort and Ref Save Okay, allready better than any core class. The Myrmidon is not a core class. It is a prestige class. Therefore it should be better than a core class. Those abilities are VERY similar to a ranger, but the Myrmidon is not a skirmisher like the ranger is. He is a full-blown warrior. However, I will consider either dropping the hit die down to a D8 or changing the Fort Save to Poor. The latter is a more likely choice. Weapon and Armor Proficiency/Restrictions One should compare the Myrmidon with the ranger. It's the best class anyway. :) In progress. Though remember, you are comparing a 20-level core class with a 10-level prestige class. Apples and oranges. Class Abilities: Quick Steps: +20ft movement. Very good. Right. And a Monk (core class) gets +30' of movement across the first 10 levels, and +60' of movement if you finish out the whole class. So +20' of movement means a base move of 50' and a double move of 100'. That ability in itself isn't a HUGE advantage. The best thing about it is the way it synergizes with the other class abilities. And you still didn't point out HOW this ability is overpowered. "Very good" doesn't really quantify anything. Classic Hoplite Style: Basicly this means he gets his complete shield bonus for free. Okay, later, the availabily of animated shields reduces the effect of this, however, than shield attacks become useful. Quite a powerful ability. Okay, let's see if I can explore this a bit. "...complete shield bonus for free,"...I'm guessing you mean the Myrmidon can add 1.5 times his STR bonus to damage when using a shortspear and still get the bonus for using a shield. Well there are a couple of things to keep in mind here. 1.) The two weapon fighting/two weapon defense chain of feats essentially does the same thing, only better. The Myrmidon is limited to using a shortspear (1D6, 20/x2), and can't attack with his shield w/out losing the shield bonus. Of course he can always take Imp Shield Bash, but then he still sufferes all the two weapon fighting penalties. 2.) A Myrmidon should be charging almost every round, so given that he will normally only get a single attack and won't even be able to gain any benefits from twf or imp shield bash. 3.) Let's compare a Myrmidon (FTR6/MYR5) with a two weapon fighting expert (FTR11). Let's assume both have an 18 STR, and no magical or masterwork Items whatsoever. Let's give the Fighter Two weapon fighting, Imp Two Weapon Fighting, Two wpn defense, imp two weapon defense, and greater two wpn defense. The fighter will be using a longsword in his primary hand and a shortsword in his off hand. Myrmidon: Melee attack w/shortspear: +15/+10/+5, damage: 1D6+6 Shield bonus to AC: +2 (heavy shield) Fighter: Melee attack w/longsword: +13/+8/+3, damage: 1D8+4 Melee attack w/shortsword: +13/+8, damage: 1D6+2 Shield bonus to AC: +3 (greater two wpn fighting) Looks to me like the Fighter has the advantage here, no matter how you cut it. Try running the numbers with the Myrmidon using Power Attack or Combat Expertise to even up the numbers. The Fighter still comes out ahead. Any any enchantment you can give to the Myrmidon to make him better, you can give to the two weapon fighter. Momentum: Okay, +1 to +5 damage on charges. Nice. I agree. It's a nice little bonus, but nothing that should be considered overpowered. Consider it the Myrmidon version of Greater Weapon Specialization, but with the limit of only getting the bonus during a charge. Which means you can only get that bonus ONCE per round. Not several times per round like Weapon Specialization. Skilled Charge: Nice, too. Okay, I'm not trying to be an a$$ here, but you aren't helping your argument. Saying an ability is "nice" or "good" doesn't explain why it is over powered or unbalanced. Your argument started off with a very strong point, about how no other core classes have a D10 hit die, good BAB, and two strong saves. That is the sort of argument that points out WHY a certain part of the class may be unblanced/overpowered. Of course, in the case of Skilled Charge, you might just be saying that this ability is a good one and not overpowered at all. If that is the case, I'm just going to pull my foot out of my mouth and sit here sheepishly. :D Agile runner: Again, a little, useful ability. Sure...useful. I'm going to assume you mean it's a "good" ability for the class and not overpowered. Evasion: As said, we compare to the ranger. He get's this ability on 9th level, the Myrmidon on 3rd. Make sure you check your math here. Yes, the ranger gets Evasion at 9th level. That ranger will also be a 9th level character. The Myrmidon is a prestige class, and requires a BAB of +6 just for entry. Which means, at a bare minimum, a character wishing to become a Myrmidon must have at LEAST 6 character levels in a class or classes that grant a good BAB progression. So a character with 6 levels of fighter and 3 levels of Myrmidon will get Evasion. Low and behold...that's a 9th level character. And just FYI, Monks and Rogues get evasion at 2nd level. Fast Entry: +2 bonus to their initiative checks: Okay. RUN action does no longer provokes AoOs: Powerful!!! Yup, same thing here. You say it's powerful but don't say how. Maybe I'm just missing something. Here's what I know about the RUN action. 1.) As a full round action, you move your base move x4, lose Dex and Dodge bonuses to AC, and any threatened area you pass through provokes an AoO. Oh, and you don't get to make any attacks at all. 2.) With the RUN Feat (prereq for the Myrmidon), you move your base move x5 and get to retain your Dex and Dodge bonus to AC. You still provoke AoOs and still don't get to make any attacks. 3.) With FAST ENTRY, you move your base speed x5, retain dex and dodge bonus, and do not provoke AoOs. You STILL don't get to make any attacks. A RUN action is not the same as a CHARGE action which means you don't get to make an attack at the end, and you can't use the MOMENTUM, SKILLED CHARGE, AGILE RUNNER, UNHINDERED CHARGE, LIGHTNING STRIKE, LETHAL CHARGE, or STROKE OF THE GODS abilities. It simply allows the Myrmidon to move quickly to the ideal place on the battlefield. Quick Defense: Another good ability. I agree. A Myrmidon is only going to be wearing light armor or no armor, so he needs all the AC he can get. This ability helps out a little, but I don't think is overpowered. Difficult Target: Not as good as Quick defence but still nice. Indeed. It is designed to complement Quick Defense. Unhindered Charge: Overrun is not very useful, so I have no problem with that. That's funny. This is one of the more powerful abilities, especially for classes who can move really fast. This ability allows a Myrmidon to move right past any opponents who are in his way. Got a line of bugbears in front of the evil mage? No problem...move right through them with Unhindered Charge so you can get to the mage in the back. Most other characters can move through occupied squares by using the Tumble skill, but the Myrmidon is much better at it. Again, the primary use of this ability is to move through occupied squares without provoking any AoOs. Lightning Strike: Total +4 attack, +8.5 on damage from charges. Hmmm....+8.5 damage? Ahhh, you must be adding in the damage bonus from Momentum. That basically comes out to +5-12 (1D6+4) with 8 levels of Myrmidon. Not too bad...about the same as a medium creature using Greater Powerful Charge. Lethal Charge: This is the best ability. Much better than whirlwind. Whirlwind hits about 3 targets, normally - if you can herd them together. Maybe 6 with a spiked chain, we didn't have someone like this jet. But with this ability (and quick steps and agile runner), you should be able to hit them all (Or. Hm, I'm just seeing, that fast entry does not help. But nevertehless.. Okay, if your DM only puts your group against a small number of creatures per encounter, I can see how Whirlwind on the average will only hit about 3 targets. But it has potential to hit MANY more. In MANY of my games, the players get surround by bad guys. RARELY do enemies attack when they don't outnumber the players. In that situation, Whirlwind attack comes in REALLY handy. Next, I think you make a good point about using Agile Charge to run around and hit a bunch of people surrounding you. But keep a few things in mind. 1.) Moving through threatened squares while using Lethal Charge DOES provoke AoOs. So running around in circles will likely allow the enemies as many attacks against you as you get against them. Not a wise choice. 2.) You take a -4 to hit and a -4 to AC. That makes you less effective in combat, and an easier target to hit. Again, that's not a good thing if you are going to be provoking AoOs left and right. 3.) You cannot combine the Lightning Strike and Unhindered Charge abilities with Lethal Charge, so no +4 to hit, +1D6 to dam, and no overruning occupied squares with no threat of AoOs. 4.) You must move at least 10' before you can make any attacks. If you are partially surrounded, that means several AoOs are coming your way before you even get to make a single attack. Stroke of the Gods: Hm, the main roll is Jump vs. 2*BAB. First, BAB is not total attack. Then the Jump-spell, cast by a 9th level caster adds +30 to this check. So basicly you can choose to force your opponent to make a difficult save or die. You don't have to look hard to find benefits from different classes working togther. Monks usually have fairly decent ACs. But if you have the party mage throw Mage Armor and Shield spells on him, and the Party cleric throws Shield of faith on him, he becomes an AC machine. Measuring a classes power/balance by using abilities from another class is not a very good method. And as for a save or die ability, remember that the Myrmidon needs to be AT LEAST 16th level before he gets Stroke of the Gods, and Clerics and Wizards/Sorcerers get Symbol of Death at 16th level as well. So, we have 6 really good abilities, and 6 useful, minor abilities. Comparing this with the ranger - let's say levels 6-15, we have: 4 good abilities (none as good as Classic Hoplite Style, Lethal Charge or Stroke of the Gods, however) and 4 minor abilities (and again, I don't thing these abilities are as good as quick defense or lightning strike). And if a class surpasses the ranger like this...let's not compare it with the fighter. We really shouldn't be comparing a prestige class to a core class anyway. Prestige classes are supposed to specialize in their particular niche, and be better at it than the core classes. That's why they are prestige classes. Okay "hopelessly overpowered" was to quick judged - but "to strong to allow it" still aplies, in my eyes. Indeed. And you have given me some food fo though, but I still think the class is relatively balanced as written. You should try comparing it to other warrior-centric prestige classes and see how it measures up. And as always, as DM, it's your game, and your decision.
TheOneRonin 05-05-05, 02:51 PM	I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'm going to put my two cents in anyways. 8-) Here Maraxus maybe this will work if you looked at my original revision Ive "added" an ability and, at least IMO balanced the other. Deadly Charge (Ex): At 8th level, a Myrmidon learns a special charge. He/she gains +4 bonus on the attack roll but suffers a -4 penalty to his/her AC until the start of the next round. In addition, the Myrmidon gains a +1d6 damage on the charge for every 10’ moved before the attack (any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to the extra damage from this charge). Ummm...dang. With 9 levels of myrmidon and a 100' double move that's +10d6 damage on a charge. Wow! That seems to me to be a lot more lethal than anything else in my Myrmidon build, except for Stroke of the Gods. Lethal Charge (Ex): At 9th level, a Myrmidon has learned to strike down multiple enemies during a charge. As a full round action, a Myrmidon may attack a number of enemies he/she passes during a charge equal to ½ his/her class level (round down). The Myrmidon makes these attacks at his/her full base attack bonus with a -4 penalty and suffers a -4 penalty to his/her AC. He/she must move at least 10’ before attacking any foes with this ability. This action provokes attacks of opportunity from all targets that threaten him/her (a deadly charge may not be used during a lethal charge). That's almost exactly like my revision of Lethal Charge, except it's limited to a max of 5 targets instead of 10. I still think that makes it far weaker than Whirlwind Attack, especially when you consider the attack and AC penalties, AND the fact that you provoke AoOs when you move. I just don't see a reason to tone down this ability from the way I have it written. Again, it might just be the way I run my games.
Maraxus 05-05-05, 05:34 PM	The Myrmidon is not a core class. It is a prestige class. Therefore it should be better than a core class :D You think I mean this sig seriously? :D A prestige should be better than a core class. - It just should not be better per level. And I fear this one is. You should compare PrCs only to core classes. If you compare one prestige class to the next and the next one to the last and so one, you will only fall further and further (in little steps) apart from that, what defines what's balanced. By the way, where I said "nice" or "good" ability: I meant: Nothing wrong, or overpowered with this ability. Basicly, none of your abilities is overpowered. It's the great number of abilities. So to small points: You don't have to look hard to find benefits from different classes working togther. Monks usually have fairly decent ACs. But if you have the party mage throw Mage Armor and Shield spells on him, and the Party cleric throws Shield of faith on him, he becomes an AC machine. Measuring a classes power/balance by using abilities from another class is not a very good method. And as for a save or die ability, remember that the Myrmidon needs to be AT LEAST 16th level before he gets Stroke of the Gods, and Clerics and Wizards/Sorcerers get Symbol of Death at 16th level as well. Yes, and I consider this. The monk is good because of his AC. Would the AC-bonus be an armor bonus (like mage armor) or deflection bonus (like shield of faith), the monk would be worse. It isn't and it is good that way. But if you don't like it that way, you can take a ring with jump, too. And your class is a fighter, therefor he should not have an death attack, even if the wizard has it. Give him d4 hit-dies and poor BAB, is he should force the enemies to do saves or die (no, not really, but one could say that). You said, a PrC should only fit into a niche, than why does your class can do everything: Deal damage, defent himself and use a death effect? Second: Lethal Charge vs. Whirlwind attack: Okay, you could also argue, that you fight gibberings, who swarm at 3 per square and with a spiked chain whirlwind you cen attack 72 of them. ... I agree that depends on what the dm throws at the party. I realized, that masses of low level enemies are no callenge for a high level party, the best challenge is another group of about equal size and level. Okay, there is the question of AoO. You could rely on your armor class. At least you have mobility to even out the -4 from Lethal Charge. Maybe, a "something" of greater invisibility would be a better option. At all, I would say, it is at least compareable to whirlwind. Third: Classic Hoplite Style Hey, you are giving the fighter 5 feats, and the Myrmidon none? He should have improved shield bash and two weapon fighting, too. Also, a good strength for 11th level fighters should be 22, magic equipment should be +3 to +2. Then I come to values of: Myrmidon: Melee attack w/shortspear +3: +18/+13/+8, damage: 1D6+12 Shield bash: +18, damage 1d4+3 Shield bonus to AC: +4 (light Spiked shield +3) Fighter: Melee attack w/longsword +3: +18/+13/+8, damage: 1D8+9 Melee attack w/shortsword +2: +18/+13, damage: 1D6+5 Shield bonus to AC: +3 (greater two wpn fighting) All together, the fighter deals about 3 damage per turn more vs AC 23, the Myrmidon has 1 more AC and: Momentum +3, Quick Steps +15ft, Skilled Charge, Agile Runner, Evasion, Fast Entry, Quick Defense and Difficult Target. As I said, Classic Hoplite Style alone is not overpowered, no single ability is. It's the mass of abilities that is to much.
Mordin 05-05-05, 06:15 PM	Point taken on "my" lethal charge, Im personaly geting rid of the AoO for 2 reasons- 1-like you've said whirlwind attack nuf said and in my build Ive added the Spring Attack feat to me this ability represents his/her further knowledge of this feat(im keeping the limited targets thow I personaly think its a bit more "balanced") 2-"My" deadly charge is very comparable to many high level touch spells so I don't think the damage is of the charts and with a comparable touch spell I only have to hit their touch AC unlike with this ability were I have to hit their normal AC. I love all the imput your geting this class is comming along nicely :)
eRaz0r 05-05-05, 06:39 PM	I think one of the things about putting so many features that synergize well with a charge, is the powerful ability to get other features from other classes which synergize well with this class. For example, the Myrmidon currently has no ability to avoid broken terrain on a charge. He is good at charging down opponents, but cannot leap obstacles. Personally, I think that's an oversight, but it's easily avoided with the Swashbucklers ability at IIRC 5th level. Also, there are plenty of other classes which give abilities like Powerful Charge and Pounce-like Full Attacks on Charges which can be abused by mixing in with Myrmidon levels. Imagine a Pouncing Myrmidon with Lethal Charge and Stroke of the Gods? First he slaughters everyone on the way to the BBEG, and then he jumps up and stabs that guy in the eye? EVen in the event that he is hit by the AoO, he gets his full attack action against the bad guy, in addition to all the enemies he attacked with Lethal Charge. And what happens if he takes Great Cleave as well? If his attack on the lethal charge downs a foe, he can smack into the next guy with Great Cleave and then get another attack on him with Lethal Charge. If he misses with that, he can use his direction changing ability to turn around and mow him down again, or use his overrun ability to knock him down and then, since he's still threatening him 5' later, use Lethal Charge with a +4 for attacking a prone target, and if he concludes his charge there, finish with a Full Attack on the Pounce or a Stroke of the Gods. I think the idea is great, I just think the game mechanics need some cleaning up so that there aren't so many potential loopholes (especially when combined with other classes).
eRaz0r 05-05-05, 06:55 PM	Comparing power to touch spells is a bad design flaw. Touch spells have a limited number of uses per day, and an opportunity cost for their use (such as giving up a slot to prepare them, or a "spells known" position to get them, and then Casting Defensively to use them in combat etc etc etc). Compare that with an ability that has no spell failure, unlimited number of uses per *encounter* let alone per day, and surely you can see the power comparison is not appropriate. You should be comparing it to the Assassin's Death Attack ability. It's about the only thing that comes close, and your death charge is way more powerful than the Assassins Death Attack. This may be fitting since you have to be 16th level to get the DEath Charge.. but it otherwise is more powerful. It's basically instant death to any mage, and with the myrmidons avoidance abilities (evasion, ranged attack AC bonus on a charge) + the initiative boosting and speed bonus, this is a better mage slayer than the Occult Slayer or Suel Archanamach or Monk, and combined with any for even more focus in that direction.
Mordin 05-05-05, 07:03 PM	Thanx for pointing the spell comparison out to me that dose open the eyes a bit. Personally, I think that's an oversight, but it's easily avoided with the Swashbucklers ability at IIRC 5th level. It actually 7th level and it’s called acrobatic charge, and I think that is one thing that balances this class a bit because the only way to overcome the obsticles in his/her way is to be a Swashbucklers and that dosnt realy fit the fill of this PrC unless you min/max ;) Here is the revision I’m going to use unless someone can point out something that I’ve grossly overlooked. :) Myrmidon Requirements: Alignment: Any Base Attack Bonus: +7 Skills: Jump 10 ranks. Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Run, Fleet of Foot, Weapon Proficiency (simple), Weapon Proficiency (shortsword), Armor Proficiency (light), Shield Proficiency. Class Features: BAB: Good (as fighter) Good Saves: Fort and Reflex Poor Saves: Will Hit Dice: 1d8 Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str). Skill Points at Each Level: 2+ Int modifier. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Myrmidon gains no additional proficiencies. LEVEL ABILITIES: 1. Classic Hoplite Style, quick steps 2. Momentum, agile runner 3. Evasion, ready shield, quick steps 4. Fast entry, agile defense, agile runner 5. Bonus feat 6. Skilled charge, agile runner, quick steps 7. Bonus feat 8. Deadly charge, agile runner 9. Lethal charge, quick steps 10. Stroke of the gods Classic Hoplite Style: The Myrmidon is an expert in shield and shortspear combat and knows how to use these two weapons in perfect harmony. When fighting with a shield and shortspear, a Myrmidon treats any shortspear he/she wields as though he/she is using it two-handed, gaining the 1.5 strength bonus to damage while wielding the shortspear one-handed. Quick Steps (Ex): A Myrmidon is taught that to win a fight its best to do it quickly. At 1st level, a Myrmidon gains a +5 to his/her base movement. He/she gains an additional +5 to his/her base movement at 3rd, 6th and 9th level. This ability stacks with all other similar abilities (such as a barbarian’s fast movement). Momentum (Ex): At 2nd level, a Myrmidon gains a bonus to damage equal to ½ his/her class level (round down) on a successful charge attack. He/she only gains this bonus with a shortsword, shortspear, light armor and/or shield. Agile Runner (Ex): At 2nd level, a Myrmidon becomes even more agile on his/her feet. He/she may make an additional 90-degree direction change during a charge. This ability stacks with the Fleet of Foot feat. This ability allows a Myrmidon to charge around corners, avoid combatants and other obstacles while still building momentum for the inevitable clash of arms. He/she may make an additional 90-degree direction change at 4th, 6th and 8th level. Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level, A Myrmidon can avoid damage from certain attacks with a successful Reflex save (see the monk class feature, page 41 of the Player’s Handbook). Ready Shield (Ex): At 3rd level, a Myrmidon becomes so familiar with his/her shield that he/she can equip a stowed shield as a free action (this dose not include a tower shield). Fast Entry (Ex): At 4th level, a Myrmidon learns to enter combat so quickly that his/her opponents have a difficult time reacting. Myrmidons gain the Quick Reconnoiter feat as a bonus, even if he/she dose not have the prerequisite for it. Agile Defense (Ex): At 4th level, a Myrmidon becomes more difficult to hit while on the move. A Myrmidon gains a +2 circumstance bonus to his/her AC during any round in which he/she moves more than 5’. In addition, he/she also gains a +2 circumstance bonus to all reflex saving throws when performing a double move action. This bonus last until the Myrmidons next turn. At 8th level the bonus gained by this abilitie improves to +4. Bonus Feat: At 5th level, a Myrmidon gains the Spring Attack feat as a bonus feat. Skilled Charge (Ex): At 6th level, a Myrmidon no longer suffers the -2 AC penalty when performing a charge action (this ability dose not affect a Deadly Charge, see bellow). Bonus Feat: At 7th level, Myrmidon gains the Phalanx Fighter feat as a bonus feat. Deadly Charge (Ex): At 8th level, a Myrmidon learns a special charge. He/she gains +4 bonus on the attack roll but suffers a -4 penalty to his/her AC until the start of the next round. In addition, the Myrmidon gains a +1d6 damage on the charge for every 10’ moved before the attack. This ability may only be used once per encounter. (any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to the extra damage from this charge). Lethal Charge (Ex): At 9th level, a Myrmidon has learned to strike down multiple enemies during a charge. As a full round action, a Myrmidon may attack a number of enemies he/she passes during a charge equal to ½ his/her class level (round down). The Myrmidon makes these attacks at his/her full base attack bonus with a -4 penalty and suffers a -4 penalty to his/her AC. He/she must move at least 10’ before attacking any foes with this ability. This action dose not provokes attacks of opportunity (a Deadly Charge may not be used during a lethal charge). Stroke of the Gods (Ex): At 10th level, a Myrmidon has learned to quickly deliver death to his/her enemies. As a full round action, a charging Myrmidon using a shortsword or shortspear can perform a special feint. When he/she reaches an opponent during a charge he/she moves 5’ to one side of the target provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attack of opportunity succeeds the ability is wasted and the Myrmidon attack as usual. If the attack of opportunity fails the Myrmidon makes a jump check opposed by double the targets base attack bonus + the targets Dex modifier. If the Myrmidon succeeds, he/she rolls an attack against the enemy. If the attack is successful it is treated as a critical hit, the target takes damage as usual and must make a fortitude or reflex save (whichever is higher) (DC = 10 + ½ the Myrmidons class level + his/her strength modifier) or die. Note: This ability can only be use on an opponent of equal or smaller size than the Myrmidon. In addition, any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to this ability.
TheOneRonin 05-10-05, 11:26 AM	:D You think I mean this sig seriously? :D A prestige should be better than a core class. - It just should not be better per level. And I fear this one is. You should compare PrCs only to core classes. If you compare one prestige class to the next and the next one to the last and so one, you will only fall further and further (in little steps) apart from that, what defines what's balanced. If you take a look at most prestige classes, you'll notice that they tend to focus a character into a particular niche. While filling that niche, they are better than just about any other class. However, when out of that niche, they lose many of their advantages. I don't have any of my books at work, so I can't make any good comparisons. When I go home for lunch, I'll get some more accurate info. By the way, where I said "nice" or "good" ability: I meant: Nothing wrong, or overpowered with this ability. Basicly, none of your abilities is overpowered. It's the great number of abilities. Yeah, I thought about that halfway through my last post. Sorry if I came off defensive. And as for the great number of abilities, keep in mind a few things. Most prestige classes get an ability every level, even if it's an improvement to an ability they got a few levels before. Maybe the Myrmidon does have a few more than the average. I'll do some comparison when I can get my hands on my copy of the DMG and Complete Warrior so I have access to some prestige classes. So to small points: Yes, and I consider this. The monk is good because of his AC. Would the AC-bonus be an armor bonus (like mage armor) or deflection bonus (like shield of faith), the monk would be worse. Okay, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Yes, a monk loses many of his abilities when he wears armor, but it does not say that he loses his abilities when he gets an armor bonus. Mage Armor is an Armor bonus, but doesn't interfere with a Monk's abilities at all. Neither do the Shield spell or the Shield of Faith spell. All three of those bonuses stack, AND those are all low level spells. But if you don't like it that way, you can take a ring with jump, too. And your class is a fighter, therefor he should not have an death attack, even if the wizard has it. Give him d4 hit-dies and poor BAB, is he should force the enemies to do saves or die (no, not really, but one could say that). Sure, a ring a Jump would certainly help the Myrmidon tremendously in this regard. And so would a jump spell. Perhaps I should make the opposed roll an opposed attack roll instead of a Jump check vs. 2xBAB. So you are of the opinion that a one-hit kill attack should be reserved for arcane casters only? Of course, you are totally entitled to your opinion. Look, maybe I'm coming at this from the wrong direction. Obviously, most of you who dislike Stroke of the Gods feel that the MECHANICS for the ability make it overpowered and unbalanced. That's fine...the MECHANICS need work. However I don't think there is anything wrong with the SPIRIT of the ability. What I was trying to accomplish with this ability is give the Myrmidon a special attack that he can use to dispatch certain enemies with a single hit. This ability should be easily defeted/stopped/defended against by NPC's of equal or much higher level than the Myrmidon, but should be usable an unlimited number of times per day. Please keep in mind this is not an ability that is designed to let the Mrymidon kill equal or higher level NPCs in one hit. Yes, it's possible for that to happen, but should be rare. That's what I was fooling around with the mechanics, trying to make a to represent this with dice rolls. If you guys have some suggestions for accomplishing this, please let me know. Also, keep in mind that the Myrmidon will be at least a 16th level character when he gets this, so it's okay if the ability lets him kill CR9 or CR10 creatures with impunity. You said, a PrC should only fit into a niche, than why does your class can do everything: Deal damage, defent himself and use a death effect? Okay, my Prestige class deals damage. An equal level Barbarian (core class) who is raging and using a two hander deals more. Yeah, my Myrmidon gets a couple of bonuses to his AC. He is still limited to Light armor, so even with the bonuses he will always be a few AC points behind the Fighter, Paladin, and Cleric (and any other class that can wear Plate and use a shield). And remember, his AC bonuses are circumstantial. If he can't move around, he doesn't get them. As for the Death Effect, well, I think I covered that in my response above. Is the Myrmidon an effective combat class? Yes. Can it do everything? No. The Myrmidon cannot cast spells, heal, shapechange, or buff himself or others. He also doesn't get a large pool of skill points nor a wide selection of skills. He isn't stealthy like the ranger or rouge, nor is he any more skilled at ranged combat than any other good BAB class. His niche is moving around the battlefield, charging, and dealing with large numbers of enemies. Outside of that niche, he's just a fighter in light armor...not really even as good as a fighter in light armor (who will have the feats to make him more effective). Second: Lethal Charge vs. Whirlwind attack: Okay, you could also argue, that you fight gibberings, who swarm at 3 per square and with a spiked chain whirlwind you cen attack 72 of them. ... I agree that depends on what the dm throws at the party. I realized, that masses of low level enemies are no callenge for a high level party, the best challenge is another group of about equal size and level. Okay, there is the question of AoO. You could rely on your armor class. At least you have mobility to even out the -4 from Lethal Charge. Maybe, a "something" of greater invisibility would be a better option. At all, I would say, it is at least compareable to whirlwind. You make some good points, but you are still missing some. With whirlwind, you NEVER provoke any attacks, AoOs or otherwise. You simply make a single attack roll against every enemy in a square you threaten. There is ZERO risk in using Whirlwind attack. With Lethal Charge, you gain the POTENTIAL of a better benefit than Whirlwind (possibly more attacks) with a serious risk (every enemy you pass gets an AoO). Sure the -4 to AC is cancled out from Mobility, but you are still relying on your base AC. Chances are if the enemies can't hit you, then they aren't much of a threat (and can be smoked by the mage's fireball). If they can hit you, then you are in more danger than if you sit still and do a whirlwind. Also keep in mind that you are comparing essentially a 6th level Feat (Whirlwind Attack) with a 15th level ability (Lethal Charge). By the very nature of being a much higher level ability, it SHOULD be better. And as written, it isn't MUCH better. Third: Classic Hoplite Style Hey, you are giving the fighter 5 feats, and the Myrmidon none? He should have improved shield bash and two weapon fighting, too. Very good point. If I was building a Mrymidon, I would probably try to have those feats in my build. Also, a good strength for 11th level fighters should be 22, magic equipment should be +3 to +2. Then I come to values of: Myrmidon: Melee attack w/shortspear +3: +18/+13/+8, damage: 1D6+12 Shield bash: +18, damage 1d4+3 Shield bonus to AC: +4 (light Spiked shield +3) Fighter: Melee attack w/longsword +3: +18/+13/+8, damage: 1D8+9 Melee attack w/shortsword +2: +18/+13, damage: 1D6+5 Shield bonus to AC: +3 (greater two wpn fighting) All together, the fighter deals about 3 damage per turn more vs AC 23, the Myrmidon has 1 more AC and: Momentum +3, Quick Steps +15ft, Skilled Charge, Agile Runner, Evasion, Fast Entry, Quick Defense and Difficult Target. Let's see if I can clarify a few things here. First off, a +3 shield doesn't get that bonus to hit AND to AC, so the Myrmidon's attack bonus with the shield would be +15. Next, the Fighter's short sword has one less enchancement bonus than his longsword, so his attack bonuses with it should be +17/+12. You say the Myrmidon has +1 more AC? Are you forgetting the fact that the Two weapon fighter is probably in Full Plate? That right there is going to be at least 4 AC points higher than the Myrmidon's light armor. So the Fighter still comes out ahead. Now you said the Myrmidon has 1 more AC and: Momentum +3, Quick Steps +15ft, Skilled Charge, Agile Runner, Evasion, Fast Entry, Quick Defense and Difficult Target. Yes, the Myrmidon in this scenario (FTR6/MYR5) will have all of the those abilites. The Fighter in this scenario (FTR11) will have the 5 feats I listed, plus 6 more (7 if Human). I'm sure any of us on this board can spec out an 11th level two-weapon Fighter, so I won't waste my time doing it. Suffice to say, both classes will have a plethora of abilities at said level. As I said, Classic Hoplite Style alone is not overpowered, no single ability is. It's the mass of abilities that is to much. Again, I don't think there are too many abilities. What I can do is combine a few of the abilities into a single ability if that makes people feel better. I think I might just do that.
TheOneRonin 05-10-05, 11:45 AM	I think one of the things about putting so many features that synergize well with a charge, is the powerful ability to get other features from other classes which synergize well with this class. This is very true, and something I only really considered after putting the class together. And this is something that DOES need to be addressed. For example, the Myrmidon currently has no ability to avoid broken terrain on a charge. He is good at charging down opponents, but cannot leap obstacles. Personally, I think that's an oversight, but it's easily avoided with the Swashbucklers ability at IIRC 5th level. Not so much an oversite, but sort of a limitation built into the class. It can be overcome, but you need a few more levels than if you were just building a Myrmidon out of a fighter. Also, there are plenty of other classes which give abilities like Powerful Charge and Pounce-like Full Attacks on Charges which can be abused by mixing in with Myrmidon levels. See, that's why I post stuff like this on the boards...so you guys can fill in my knowledge gaps. Getting to make a full attack at the end of a charge can certianly cause problems, especially with some of the Myrmidon's abilities. I'm going to adjust the description text to fix some of this. Imagine a Pouncing Myrmidon with Lethal Charge and Stroke of the Gods? First he slaughters everyone on the way to the BBEG, and then he jumps up and stabs that guy in the eye? EVen in the event that he is hit by the AoO, he gets his full attack action against the bad guy, in addition to all the enemies he attacked with Lethal Charge. And what happens if he takes Great Cleave as well? If his attack on the lethal charge downs a foe, he can smack into the next guy with Great Cleave and then get another attack on him with Lethal Charge. If he misses with that, he can use his direction changing ability to turn around and mow him down again, or use his overrun ability to knock him down and then, since he's still threatening him 5' later, use Lethal Charge with a +4 for attacking a prone target, and if he concludes his charge there, finish with a Full Attack on the Pounce or a Stroke of the Gods. [\quote] Again, some very good points. I'm going to work some more on the wording for the Myrmidon's abilities to make sure overlaps like this cannot occur. [quote]I think the idea is great, I just think the game mechanics need some cleaning up so that there aren't so many potential loopholes (especially when combined with other classes). VERY true. Consider the cleanup in progress.
TheOneRonin 05-10-05, 04:25 PM	Okay, I went back and built in some limitations in the class. It should be pretty clear which abilities can be used with which other abilities, both from within the Myrmidon class and from without. Also, I've just some cursory reading on some of the other core and prestige classes that are in my other books, and here's what I've come up with. Swashbuckler The Swashbuckler has many abilities that synergize well with the Myrmidon, but it takes a considerable number of levels in Swashbuckler to meet the Myrmidon prerequesites. Since the Swashbuckler doesn't start with any shield proficiency, he needs 5 feats to qualify (Shield Proficiency, Dodge, Mobility, Run, Phalanx Fighting). That means a human swashbuckler can't pick up his first level of Myrmidon until after 9th level, while a non-human Swashbuckler has to wait until he has 12 levels behind him. This makes the swashbuckler less appealing as a base class for a non-human since you won't be able to progress past 8th level as a Myrmidon. The Insightful Strike, Grace, Dodge Bonus, and Acrobatic Charge are all very useful abilities for a Myrmidon, though are hardly game breaking. Any higher level Swashbuckler abilities are not likely to show up as the character will most likely be taking Myrmidon levels after reaching 10th level. Dervish The Dervish is another prestige class that involves lots of movement and excellent combat skills. It also happens to have a D10 hit die, good BAB, and two good saves...something which I was told earlier was overpowered. The Dervish also gets extra movement (+15' as opposed to the Myrmidon's +20'), AC bonuses (which apply more often than the Mymidon's AC bonus), and plenty of other bonuses. Luckily, the Prerequisites are robust enough for both prestige classes that even a 20th level character isn't likely to have more than a handful of levels in both Myrmidon and Dervish. Also of note, the Assassin, Darkwood Staker, and Dark Hunter all get Death Attacks that require a Fort save vs DC 10+class level+attrib mod or die. These abilities can be used any number of times per day, and only require the character to study his target for 3 rounds. That is a bit of a limitation, but not a serious one. Consider that the Myrmidon's "death attack" has a chance to fail before the attack is even rolled, and has an easier save. To me, that sort of balances the abilities. Also, I was thinking about limiting Stroke of the Gods to one attempt per enemy. If that attempt fails, you cannot use it against that enemy ever again. Scout I don't have Complete Adventurer, but from what I've heard, the Scout class has a Skirmish ability that grants extra damage dice every other level as long as the Scout moves 10' or more in a round. While this ability would rock for the Myrmidon, I feel it's over the top. The Myrmidon is built around charging, and adding 3 or 4 extra dice of damage for every charge is too much. That's why I prohibit the Myrmidon from taking advantage of any Skirmish ability.
Mordin 05-11-05, 12:30 AM	I just realized this Wizard beat you to the "Power shot" feat Brutal Throw Use Str rather that Dex for thrown weapons Power throw Brutal throw and power attack are pre-reqs Power attacks with thrown weapons (Com. Adventurers) After your last post and some of the advice from some of the oother posts I took a close look at my build and changed a few things special notice to stroke of the gods mechanics and pre-reqs mostly just reworded some things. Myrmidon Requirements: Alignment: Any Base Attack Bonus: +7 Skills: Jump 10 ranks. Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Run, Fleet of Foot, Phalanx Fighter, Weapon Proficiency (simple), Weapon Proficiency (shortsword), Armor Proficiency (light), Shield Proficiency. Class Features: BAB: Good (as fighter) Good Saves: Fort and Reflex Poor Saves: Will Hit Dice: 1d10 Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str). Skill Points at Each Level: 2+ Int modifier. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Myrmidon gains no additional proficiencies. LEVEL ABILITIES: 1. Classic Hoplite Style, quick steps 2. Momentum, agile runner 3. Evasion, ready shield, quick steps 4. Skilled charge, agile defense, agile runner 5. Fast entry 6. Agile runner, quick steps, agile defense 7. Deadly charge 8. Lethal charge, agile runner, agile defense 9. Quick steps 10. Stroke of the gods Classic Hoplite Style: The Myrmidon is an expert in shield and shortspear combat and knows how to use these two weapons in perfect harmony. When fighting with a shield and shortspear, a Myrmidon treats any shortspear he/she wields as though he/she is using it two-handed, gaining the 1.5 strength bonus to damage while wielding the shortspear one-handed. Quick Steps (Ex): A Myrmidon is taught that to win a fight its best to do it quickly. At 1st level, a Myrmidon gains a +5 to his/her base movement. He/she gains an additional +5 to his/her base movement at 3rd, 6th and 9th level. This ability stacks with all other similar abilities (such as a barbarian’s fast movement). Momentum (Ex): At 2nd level, a Myrmidon gains a bonus to damage equal to ½ his/her class level (round down) on a successful charge attack. He/she only gains this bonus with a shortsword, shortspear, light armor and/or shield. If the Myrmidon has an ability that allows him/her to make a full-attack action at the end of a charge this bonus damage only applies to the first attack. Agile Runner (Ex): At 2nd level, a Myrmidon becomes even more agile on his/her feet. He/she may make an additional 90-degree direction change during a charge. This ability stacks with the Fleet of Foot feat. This ability allows a Myrmidon to charge around corners, avoid combatants and other obstacles while still building momentum for the inevitable clash of arms. He/she may make an additional 90-degree direction change at 4th, 6th and 8th level. Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level, A Myrmidon can avoid damage from certain attacks with a successful Reflex save (see the monk class feature, page 41 of the Player’s Handbook). If a Myrmidon has this ability from another class he/she gain no additional benefits. Ready Shield (Ex): At 3rd level, a Myrmidon becomes so familiar with his/her shield that he/she can equip a stowed shield as a free action (this dose not include a tower shield). Skilled Charge (Ex): At 4th level, a Myrmidon no longer suffers the -2 AC penalty when performing a charge action (this ability dose not affect a Deadly Charge, see bellow). Agile Defense (Ex): At 4th level, a Myrmidon becomes more difficult to hit while on the move. A Myrmidon gains a +2 circumstance bonus to his/her AC during any round in which he/she moves more than 5’. In addition, he/she also gains a +2 circumstance bonus to all reflex saving throws when performing a double move action. This bonus last until the Myrmidons next turn. He/she gains a +3 bonus at 6th level and +4 at 8th level. Fast Entry (Ex): At 5th level, a Myrmidon learns to enter combat so quickly that his/her opponents have a difficult time reacting. Myrmidons gain the Quick Reconnoiter feat as a bonus, even if he/she dose not have the prerequisite for it. In addition, when taking a RUN action, he/she no longer provokes attacks of opportunity when moving throw threatened squares. Deadly Charge (Ex): At 7th level, a Myrmidon learns a special charge. He/she gains +4 bonus on the attack roll but suffers a -4 penalty to his/her AC until the start of the next round. In addition, the Myrmidon gains a +1d6 damage on the charge. Note: any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to the extra damage from this charge. Lethal Charge (Ex): At 8th level, a Myrmidon has learned to strike down multiple enemies during a charge. As a full round action, a Myrmidon may attack a number of enemies he/she passes during a charge equal to his/her class level. He/she may not target any one target more than once during a Lethal Charge. The Myrmidon makes these attacks at his/her full base attack bonus with a -4 penalty and suffers a -4 penalty to his/her AC. He/she must move at least 10’ before attacking any foes with this ability. This action provokes attacks of opportunity (a Deadly Charge may not be used during a lethal charge). Stroke of the Gods (Ex): At 10th level, a Myrmidon has learned to quickly deliver death to his/her enemies. As a full round action, a charging Myrmidon using a shortsword or shortspear can perform a special feint. When he/she reaches an opponent during a charge he/she moves 5’ to one side of the target provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attack of opportunity succeeds the ability fails and the Myrmidon attacks as usual. If the attack of opportunity fails the Myrmidon makes a jump check opposed by double the targets base attack bonus + the targets Dex modifier (if wearing armor with a max Dex bonus use your effective Dex bonus). If the Myrmidon succeeds, he/she rolls an attack against the enemy. If the attack is successful it is treated as a critical hit, the target takes damage as usual and must make a fortitude or reflex save (whichever is higher) (DC = 10 + ½ the Myrmidons class level + his/her strength modifier) or be reduced to 0 hit points. If the attack fails, the target can not be targeted again by this ability for 24 hours. Note: This ability can only be use on an opponent of equal or smaller size than the Myrmidon. In addition, any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to this ability. Note: Deadly Charge, Lethal Charge and Stroke of the Gods may not be used together during any one charge action. Note: Any ability from another class that allows a Myrmidon to make a full-attack action at the end of a charge may not use this (or similar ability) at the end of a Deadly Charge, Lethal Charge or the Stroke of the Gods ability.
TheOneRonin 05-11-05, 10:11 AM	"Quick Reconnoiter" feat? Which book is that in? Any chance you can give me a basic idea what it does?
Mordin 05-11-05, 10:49 AM	Quick Reconnoiter-Spot and Listen checks as a free action, +2 to Initiative. (Com. Adventurers) Pre-reqs Listen 5 ranks, Spot 5 ranks Normal: using Spot or Listen ina reactive fashion is a free action, but actively trying to make a Spot or Listen check requires a move action.
Mordin 05-12-05, 11:37 PM	I know that Stroke of the Gods has been thrashed a little bit but something just came to mind. How would Damage Reduction effect this awesome ability??
TheOneRonin 05-13-05, 08:24 AM	First off, Quick Reconnoiter sounds like it fits this class perfectly. I think I'll adjust the Myrmidon's abilities to reflect that. Secondly, I don't think DR will really have any effect on Stroke of the Gods, short of reducing the Critical hit damage, like it would with any other damage. Now, if you are instead thinking about Improved Fortification...the ability that makes you immune (or partially immune) to critical hits and sneak attacks...I suppose that should protect you from Stroke of the Gods. It is precision based damage, so, for instance, it shouldn't have any effect on a Gelatnious Cube. Oh, and one more thing...I intentionally did not specify that the extra damage from Lightning Strike is precision damage, because it is not. It's just a flat extra D6, sorta like the extra damage you get from the Powerful Charge feat. It's not meant to be precision damage, so it should be usable against Undead and the like.
TheOneRonin 05-13-05, 04:22 PM	Okay, my copy of Complete Adventurer is in the mail, but until it gets here I'm thinking about removing the Skirmish prohibition in my Myrmidon writeup. From what I've read here on the boards, the Scout only gets an improvement to this damage once every 4 levels. That's not too bad, and even with many levels of Scout, a Myrmidon won't be getting that many extra damage dice. And add to that, a high level Myrmidon with full BAB and a high STR will probably do more damage in a single round with multiple attacks than he will with charging. So for now, the Mymidon has become SKIRMISH compatible. Also, when Complete Adventurer gets here, I might edit, change, update some of his abilities. One final note...I was thinking about adding the LEAP ATTACK feat as a prereq, seeing as how it looks like a toned down version of Stroke of the Gods, and would synergize well with the Myrmidon's other abilities.
Mordin 05-13-05, 11:06 PM	Thats right on the Skirmish- they also get a +1 AC bonus any round when he/she moves atleast 10 feet (this dosnt start until 3rd level). IMO youve created the perfect PrC for the scout class just wait till you get your book you will see what I mean. I dont know if you noticed in my build I incresed the pre-reqs with the Fleet of Foot feat. I figured it suited the class. I agree with the leap attack idea
Mordin 05-15-05, 07:22 PM	just noticed something the scout class has a average BAB progresion
TheOneRonin 05-16-05, 09:07 AM	Yeah, I noticed that too. However, it doesn't really delay the Scout's entry into the Myrmidon class by much. Think about this, you need 4 feats + proficiency in Shortswords and Shields just to get in. For a non human, non Fighter character, that's 9th level before you qualify...or higher if your base class doesn't have martial proficiency (all) or shield proficiency. For a Scout, you are looking at level 8 before you can meet the BAB requirement anyway. And if you are human, that means you willl be elligible to take your 1st level of Myrmidon by 9th character level. If you are non-human, it's 12th. And I think it's very unlikely that a player would start taking levels in a prestige class that he/she can't finish. (btw, we don't play with Epic-anything, so I disregard it completely). If you think about it, the only way to get there sooner is to take levels in fighter for the bonus feats. That is by design. If you want to have levels in a class with really neat abilities that stack with Myrmidon abilites, you will have to delay entry into the Myrmidon class. If you want early entry, you need at least one or more of levels of fighter. In fact, I'm actually considering adding an additional feat to the prerequisite list. The idea is that you need to be really dedicated to becoming a Myrmidon from the beginning...and to reduce "cherry-picking".
Mordin 05-16-05, 11:44 PM	Useing the changes I've made to the class I'm going to use a 3rd ftr/4th scout. I'm not going to change my version anymore I think its finally well balanced and still very close to your original design. FINALL VERSION Myrmidon Requirements: Alignment: Any Base Attack Bonus: +6 Skills: Jump 9 ranks. Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Run, Fleet of Foot, Phalanx Fighter, Weapon Proficiency (simple), Weapon Proficiency (shortsword), Armor Proficiency (light), Shield Proficiency. Class Features: BAB: Good (as fighter) Good Saves: Fort and Reflex Poor Saves: Will Hit Dice: 1d10 Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str). Skill Points at Each Level: 2+ Int modifier. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Myrmidon gains no additional proficiencies. LEVEL ABILITIES: 1. Classic Hoplite Style, quick steps 2. Momentum, agile runner 3. Evasion, ready shield, quick steps 4. Skilled charge, agile defense, agile runner 5. Fast entry 6. Agile runner, quick steps, agile defense 7. Deadly charge 8. Lethal charge, agile runner, agile defense 9. Quick steps 10. Stroke of the gods Classic Hoplite Style: The Myrmidon is an expert in shield and shortspear combat and knows how to use these two weapons in perfect harmony. When fighting with a shield and shortspear, a Myrmidon treats any shortspear he/she wields as though he/she is using it two-handed, gaining the 1.5 strength bonus to damage while wielding the shortspear one-handed. Quick Steps (Ex): A Myrmidon is taught that to win a fight its best to do it quickly. At 1st level, a Myrmidon gains a +5 to his/her base movement. He/she gains an additional +5 to his/her base movement at 3rd, 6th and 9th level. This ability stacks with all other similar abilities (such as a barbarian’s fast movement). Momentum (Ex): At 2nd level, a Myrmidon gains a bonus to damage equal to ½ his/her class level (round down) on a successful charge attack. He/she only gains this bonus with a shortsword, shortspear, light armor and/or shield. If the Myrmidon has an ability that allows him/her to make a full-attack action at the end of a charge this bonus damage only applies to the first attack. Agile Runner (Ex): At 2nd level, a Myrmidon becomes even more agile on his/her feet. He/she may make an additional 90-degree direction change during a charge. This ability stacks with the Fleet of Foot feat. This ability allows a Myrmidon to charge around corners, avoid combatants and other obstacles while still building momentum for the inevitable clash of arms. He/she may make an additional 90-degree direction change at 4th, 6th and 8th level. Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level, A Myrmidon can avoid damage from certain attacks with a successful Reflex save (see the monk class feature, page 41 of the Player’s Handbook). If a Myrmidon has this ability from another class he/she gain no further benefits. Ready Shield (Ex): At 3rd level, a Myrmidon becomes so familiar with his/her shield that he/she can equip a stowed shield as a free action (this dose not include a tower shield). Skilled Charge (Ex): At 4th level, a Myrmidon no longer suffers the -2 AC penalty when performing a charge action (this ability dose not affect a Deadly Charge, see bellow). Agile Defense (Ex): At 4th level, a Myrmidon becomes more difficult to hit while on the move. A Myrmidon gains a +2 circumstance bonus to his/her AC during any round in which he/she moves more than 5’. In addition, he/she also gains a +2 circumstance bonus to all reflex saving throws when performing a double move action. This bonus last until the Myrmidons next turn. He/she gains a +3 bonus at 6th level and +4 at 8th level. Fast Entry (Ex): At 5th level, a Myrmidon learns to enter combat so quickly that his/her opponents have a difficult time reacting. Myrmidons gain the Quick Reconnoiter feat as a bonus, even if he/she dose not have the prerequisite for it. In addition, when taking a RUN action, he/she no longer provokes attacks of opportunity when moving throw threatened squares. Deadly Charge (Ex): At 7th level, a Myrmidon has learned to intensify his/her damage during a charge. He/she may now gain a +4 bonus on the attack roll but suffers a -4 penalty to his/her AC rather than the normal +2/-2 until the start of the next round. If the Myrmidon chooses to do this he/she gains a +1d6 damage during a charge. Lethal Charge (Ex): At 8th level, a Myrmidon has learned to strike down multiple enemies during a charge. As a full round action, a Myrmidon may attack a number of enemies he/she passes during a charge equal to his/her class level. He/she may not target any one target more than once during a Lethal Charge. The Myrmidon makes these attacks at his/her full base attack bonus with a -4 penalty and suffers a -4 penalty to his/her AC. He/she must move at least 10’ before attacking any foes with this ability. This action provokes attacks of opportunity. Stroke of the Gods (Ex): At 10th level, a Myrmidon has learned to quickly deliver death to his/her enemies. As a full round action, a charging Myrmidon using a shortsword or shortspear can perform a special feint. When he/she reaches an opponent during a charge he/she moves 5’ to one side of the target provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attack of opportunity succeeds the ability fails and the Myrmidon attacks as usual. If the attack of opportunity fails the Myrmidon makes a jump check opposed by double the targets base attack bonus + the targets Dex modifier (if wearing armor with a max Dex bonus use your effective Dex bonus). If the Myrmidon succeeds, he/she rolls an attack against the enemy. If the attack is successful it is treated as a critical hit, the target takes damage as usual and must make a fortitude or reflex save (whichever is higher) (DC = 10 + ½ the Myrmidons class level + his/her strength modifier) or be reduced to 0 hit points. If the attack fails, the target can not be targeted again by this ability for 24 hours. Note: This ability can be used on an opponent of one size category larger than the Myrmidon with a -5 penalty to his/her jump check or an opponent of equal or smaller size than the Myrmidon with no penalty. In addition, any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to this ability. Note: Deadly Charge, Lethal Charge and Stroke of the Gods may not be used together during any one charge action. Note: Any ability from another class that allows a Myrmidon to make a full-attack action at the end of a charge may not use this (or similar ability) at the end of a Deadly Charge, Lethal Charge or the Stroke of the Gods ability.
Ambian Eagleheart 05-17-05, 05:16 AM	I'm probably wrong about this but I've always beleived that Myrmidon was a direct translation of the the term 'Royal Purple' or 'Deep Purple' regarding the colour of their armour. If you look carefully during the movie, I think you will see that the armour isn't actually black, but the color Myrmidon. They were sort of the Kings bodyguard, that had gathered to fight under their leader Achilles. That is why you see Achilles and his cousin having a swordplay during the early stages of the movie when the Greek king informally requests his aid, by sending Achilles friend. What turned these troops into such an awesome fighting machine was the almost fanactical devotion the men had for Achilles and his supernatural abilities to fight. But that is only a part of the story. After Achilles confronts Hector and kills him, he desecrates the body by dragging it off behind his chariot (as you see in the movie). What happened next was not seen in the movie. The gods withdrew their favour from Achilles, even to the point of guiding a poisoned dart to pierce his "Achilles Heel" (it wasn't an arrow, cashing in on Orlando Bloom's "legolas" I reckon). The point to this post is that he lived under a "code" or deal very similar to what a Paladin or a Samurai lives under, even though he didn't know it. So if your going to make this class as a combat machine, try to balance it with a moral code of sorts. At least it would be a balanced character. I'm not knocking the idea. I have an Elven City-State in my campaign world that is based on Sparta-complete with Hoplites. So I'm interested in how this character class experiment goes as I wan't to use a much weaker version-focusing on Shield walls and Aiding others and other things. BEING FREE MEANS DOING WHAT I TELL YOU TO DO!!! Rakshasha Kal' Perone.
TheOneRonin 05-17-05, 08:30 AM	Mordin: Wow...6 prerequisite feats...you'll only meet that qualification with a FTR3/SCOUT4 if you are human. For anything non-human, you'll need another level of fighter, or two more levels of scout. Still, it's a pretty viable version of the Myrmidon. Ambian: I think you are dead on with what you have written. Basically, I wasn't trying to capture the nature of the mymidons in The Illiad, but more translate the fighting style of Achilles into a playable prestige class for DND. I was trying more to grasp the flavor of the fighting that we see him do on screen rather than trying to be more historically accurate. "Mymidon" is the name I picked because it sounds more elite than Hoplite, and as simple nod to the men who served under Achilles (but who really couldn't fight like him at all). As for your Spartan Elves, I would LOVE to read anything you have written about them. In general, this prestige class should (if used at all) be reserved for your Elven Generals and/or Heroes, not for the rank and file troops. However, I have been toying with the idea of a Hoplite base class that is pretty much patterned after the Spartan Warriors of Ancient Greece. Maybe we can colaborate on that project. What do you think?
Mordin 05-17-05, 11:32 AM	actualy a non-human can make it by 3 fighter/4 scout BAB +6 6th level PC 3 general feats 1,3,6 level 3rd Fighter 2 fighter feats 1,2 level 4th Scout 1 bonus feat 4 level Thats all 6 A Human PC would actualy have a feat not necessary for the class pre-reqs
flxbraden 05-17-05, 03:15 PM	The hoplite's armor the panoply consisted of a shield, helmet, breastplate, greaves (plate armor worn around the lower leg), sword, spear, and tunic, and weighed about seventy pounds so far i like this prc alot. you have classic hoplite style as a shield and shortspear i dont think the spear they carried was short 6 to 8 feet. all so as it says in the text above they wore breastplate, I mite be wrong but i think achilles was wearing breastplate in the movie. you have the myridon in light armour. as allways if i am wrong let me know.
TheOneRonin 05-17-05, 04:09 PM	The hoplite's armor the panoply consisted of a shield, helmet, breastplate, greaves (plate armor worn around the lower leg), sword, spear, and tunic, and weighed about seventy pounds. Don't forget the Peturgis, or leather skirt/apron that fastened around the waist and hung down to near the knees. And I'm not 100% positive, but I think the whole panoply + shield was more like 40 lbs rather than 70 lbs. so far i like this prc alot. you have classic hoplite style as a shield and shortspear i dont think the spear they carried was short 6 to 8 feet. Here's where I used a DND convention for terminology. The DND SRD defines a shortspear as spear which is short/small enough to be used in one hand. I'm sure the historical Hoplite spear is somewhere around 6+ feet, so there's no disagreement here. In all honesty, I think the way DND handles reach weapons is flat silly, but that's another thread for another time. So as is, the Classic Hoplite Style requires the use of a shield and any spear that is small enough to be used in one hand. all so as it says in the text above they wore breastplate, I mite be wrong but i think achilles was wearing breastplate in the movie. you have the myridon in light armour. as allways if i am wrong let me know. Here's where I did just the opposite of the previous paragraph. In the movie Troy, and likely historically as well, the Hoplites wore a piece of chest armor called a cuirass. It's basically a "breastplate" in the dictionary sense (A piece of armor that covers the breast). However, DND 3.5 defines the "Breastplate" as a specific type of armor. A Hoplite's Panoply would likely be equivilent to the DND studded leather or chain shirt armor. And while the main piece of the Panolpy is usually a bronze or leather "breastplate", it should not be confused with the DND "Breastplate" (medium armor, +5 AC, +3 Max Dex, etc....).
flxbraden 05-17-05, 04:16 PM	i except... i always thought they where heavier armored then that. ya know the whole they where the heavy infantry and all... :D
TheOneRonin 05-19-05, 10:39 AM	I think the definition of "heavy Infantry" changed at least slightly between 1800 BC and 1500 AD.
Ambian Eagleheart 05-25-05, 02:09 AM	i except... i always thought they where heavier armored then that. ya know the whole they where the heavy infantry and all... :D You had to furnish the cost of your arms and armour yourself. Also the richest land for metals was Spain and the closest Greece got to their was their port at Massaila in the French Riviera (modern day Marsellie? don't know about the spelling). In a land that was rather poor in metals and had a ferociously hot summer. It didn't make sense to encase yourself in Plate Mail, even if you could afford it. Also keep in mind the advantage of an interlocked hoplite shieldwall. Areas that could still be reached (like the head or the lower legs) were protected by a helmet or leg greaves. A lot of poorer Hoplites fought with no armour whatsoever, their interlocked shields giving them a surprising amount of protection. There are a couple of changes that the Myrmidon Class could do with Add Self Sufficiency (or even Diehard) as a bonus feat. Swap Agile Runner for Combat Reflexes. Combat Reflexes allows you to perfectly capture the style of warfare that the Myrmidon's excelled at. Speartips lashing out from behind a formidable shieldwall the moment an enemy shows any weakness. Agile Defense I'd half the Agile Defense bonus (+1). Combined with Evasion, this might be a bit of overkill. You can still have a bonus. Just +2 mnight be a bit steep. Stroke of the God's. Keep the name but I'd replace this with an Assasins Death attack ability. Make the concerntration time a single round or enhance the abilities. We all saw Achilles in action at the begining of the movie (I'd have stayed in bed too) but what about THAT JAVELIN THRIW on the beach. Noticing the approaching Troy counterattack, Achilles casually picks up a Javelin and hurls it into the oncomming cavalry. Hector's best friend is impaled at an incredible distance and the look of surprise on Hectors' face is priceless. He has seen an impossible throw and being 1st prince of Troy and its champion, realizes that hew will one day face what he can already sees as his nemesis. PS MENELAUS and Queen HELEN (of Troy) were actually Spartan's. So you could go to the library and do some reading. If any one wants to know anymore contact me via PM or E-Mail.
TheOneRonin 05-25-05, 08:57 AM	You had to furnish the cost of your arms and armour yourself. Also the richest land for metals was Spain and the closest Greece got to their was their port at Massaila in the French Riviera (modern day Marsellie? don't know about the spelling). In a land that was rather poor in metals and had a ferociously hot summer. It didn't make sense to encase yourself in Plate Mail, even if you could afford it. That bit about furnishing your own arms and armor is entirely correct. However, keep in mind that full plate armor didn't even exist until the early 13th century. Also keep in mind the advantage of an interlocked hoplite shieldwall. Areas that could still be reached (like the head or the lower legs) were protected by a helmet or leg greaves. A lot of poorer Hoplites fought with no armour whatsoever, their interlocked shields giving them a surprising amount of protection. I agree. This was a considerable advantage for the Hoplites. Just as long as they didn't face anyone else who used the same tactic. Then they about broke even. There are a couple of changes that the Myrmidon Class could do with Add Self Sufficiency (or even Diehard) as a bonus feat. Swap Agile Runner for Combat Reflexes. Combat Reflexes allows you to perfectly capture the style of warfare that the Myrmidon's excelled at. Speartips lashing out from behind a formidable shieldwall the moment an enemy shows any weakness. That would be a good starting point if I was out to create a prestige class or base class that emulated the ancient Greek Hoplite. But that wasn't my goal at all. Honestly, I don't think a Hoplite would be worth crap in a standard DND game. Think about it. Shield Wall: Yeah, with only 3 to 5 other characters in your party, many of which who aren't even proficient in shields, do you really think you can make an effective shield wall? Short Sword and Spear only: Yes, these are the traditional weapons of the Hoplite. And in most regards (from a DND standpoint) are totally inferior to many other weapons (i.e. Rapier, Longsword, Bastardsword, GreatAxe, Greatsword, Longspear, BattleAxe, etc...). It's hard to make a really effective Fighter who uses just these weapons. Limited to light armor: DND is not limited to the terrain of Ancient Greece, even if your campaign might be. A Fighter-type class is going to be really hurt by being restricted to light armor. It was sufficient for the Greeks because, as you pointed out, it was too damn hot for pretty much anyone to wear anything heavier. Vs. plate armor wearers, the Hoplites would be at a severe disadvantage. All in all, I think the Historical Hoplite would suck as a DND class. Not only that, but it would have to be used in a very specific campaign just to mitigate it's weaknesses. What I tried to do with the Myrmidon (which apparently was a poor choice for the name because of all of the historical baggage that comes along with it) was create a flexible fighting class that has a bit of flavor from Ancient Greece, but also reflects the fighting style that we see Achilles use in the movie Troy. He fought as an individual most of the time, running out in front and killing the enemy single-handedly. To me, I've managed to capture that with a flexible, non-campaign specific prestige class. This guy isn't supposed to be a rank and file soldier. He is supposed to be a hero...like all other DND classes. Agile Defense I'd half the Agile Defense bonus (+1). Combined with Evasion, this might be a bit of overkill. You can still have a bonus. Just +2 might be a bit steep. I think it works well with the class. And think about the limitations. To get the bonus to reflex saves, you have to move AT LEAST twice your base move. Which means you have to take a run action (no attacks), a double move (no attacks), or charge an enemy that is exactly double your base move away from you. In most cases, the Myrmidon is only going to get the Ref save bonus when trying to cover lots of ground, and will be forfeiting his attacks to do so. Stroke of the God's. Keep the name but I'd replace this with an Assasins Death attack ability. Make the concerntration time a single round or enhance the abilities. We all saw Achilles in action at the begining of the movie (I'd have stayed in bed too) but what about THAT JAVELIN THRIW on the beach. Noticing the approaching Troy counterattack, Achilles casually picks up a Javelin and hurls it into the oncomming cavalry. Hector's best friend is impaled at an incredible distance and the look of surprise on Hectors' face is priceless. He has seen an impossible throw and being 1st prince of Troy and its champion, realizes that hew will one day face what he can already sees as his nemesis. I agree that the spear throw was VERY impressive, and it's something I tried to at least simulate with the Power Throw feat. However, that ability doesn't fit well with the conception of the Myrmidon class as written, so I decided not to include it as a core ability. As for the Assassin's Death Attack, the Myrmidon's is easier to survive. I did that on purpose because the myrmidon doesn't need to study his foe like the assassin does. PS MENELAUS and Queen HELEN (of Troy) were actually Spartan's. So you could go to the library and do some reading. If any one wants to know anymore contact me via PM or E-Mail. I did a text search on all three pages of this thread, and the words "helen" and "menelaus" only show up on your post and nowhere else. What in this entire thread gave you the idea that we didn't know those two were Spartans? Even if you don't read much history (which I do voraciously), you would know that Menelaus was the king of Sparta and Helen was his wife by virtue of what we see in the movie. And I think it's a little pretentious of you to suggest that I (or anyone else posting on this thread) go the library and do some reading. I own leather-bound copied of The Illiad and The Oddyssey which I have read quite frequently. An though I no longer frequent the library (not since college), I do go to significant pains to read up on any subject I plan on discussing.
Ambian Eagleheart 05-27-05, 02:14 AM	I included the information about Queen Helen and King Menelaus' ancestry for the benefit of those who haven't read books but have only seen the movie. I know this didn't sound that way but that wasn't my intent. I only started to research the history of Sparta when I was creating my Campaign World. I don't have a library of my own, so I have to use the Public Library (It's where I am right now, actually). Apart from what I have been able to learn from there, that is all I know on the subject. I kind of got the wrong idea about the character class concept you were trying to create. I was making my suggestions around the Myrmidons themselves and not about Achilles. The reason that I disagreed with Stroke of the God's was that I wanted to see players come up with different death attacks, apart from the way it is done at the beginning of the movie. It is a pretty cool move though, I just thought it would better to have Players come up with new ways to use the attack. What brought Ancient Greece undone (in their battles against Ancient Rome), was the tactical inflexibility of their army more than arms or armour. The Romans would fight them over hilly terrain which would make it easy for the Romans to break up the Greek formations and destroy them peicemeal. Under D and D rules the Spear is a rather ineffective weapon but the Hoplites used longer spears than the D and D Spear (They were slightly shorter than medievil pikes in length {I THINK}). A bristling wall of Longspears with reach could be a formidable obstruction. That is why I thought the idea of using Combat Reflexes to gain attacks of opportunity to make it even more lethal. You did point out the obvious downfall to any type of shieldwall / phalanx type of fighting though. You would need at least 3 people similarly trained to make it effective. I am sorry if anybody has mistaken my post and gotten offended!!! ______________________ There are no perfect people, only perfect intentions.
TheOneRonin 05-27-05, 08:54 AM	I included the information about Queen Helen and King Menelaus' ancestry for the benefit of those who haven't read books but have only seen the movie. I know this didn't sound that way but that wasn't my intent. I only started to research the history of Sparta when I was creating my Campaign World. I don't have a library of my own, so I have to use the Public Library (It's where I am right now, actually). Apart from what I have been able to learn from there, that is all I know on the subject. Ahhh, I see. You have my sincerest apologies then. It's often easy to misinterpret what people say on these boards because all we have to go by is the text...no tone, no facial expressions, no body language. Plus, when you've lurked about here as long as I have, you see more than your fair share of hostile posters. I kind of got the wrong idea about the character class concept you were trying to create. I don't think you are alone there. Like I stated earlier, I suppose MYRMIDON is a bit misleading. The name would probably fit better with a base class than a prestige class. If you have any suggestions for a better name, please send them my way. I was making my suggestions around the Myrmidons themselves and not about Achilles. The reason that I disagreed with Stroke of the God's was that I wanted to see players come up with different death attacks, apart from the way it is done at the beginning of the movie. It is a pretty cool move though, I just thought it would better to have Players come up with new ways to use the attack. That's actually a pretty darned good idea. Want to help me work on the mechanics and implementation of it? Under D and D rules the Spear is a rather ineffective weapon but the Hoplites used longer spears than the D and D Spear (They were slightly shorter than medievil pikes in length {I THINK}). A bristling wall of Longspears with reach could be a formidable obstruction. That is why I thought the idea of using Combat Reflexes to gain attacks of opportunity to make it even more lethal. Yes, the normal spear in DND 3.5 is given the "short end of the stick" (pun intended). Indeed, a normal 6'-7' spear when wielded in two hand should have considerably more reach than a longsword. But unfortunately, it isn't that way in the RAW. What also screws the DND spear wielder is that your normal Spear (1D8 dam, ctrit 20/x3) is considered a two handed weapon, and therefore can't be used in conjunction with a shield. And as for combat reflexes making a longspear more effective...how right you are! Quite a while back, I had a high dex Fighter built around the longspear. He couldn't use it every fight, but when he could, he was king. You did point out the obvious downfall to any type of shieldwall / phalanx type of fighting though. You would need at least 3 people similarly trained to make it effective. Right. And while DND does emphasize teamwork, normal play is not conducive to things like shield walls and phalanxs. That sort of formation fighting is for armies and the rank&file common soldier. If you watch the movies Troy, Gladiator, Braveheart, and even Lord of the Rings, you see such tactics. But they aren't used by the "HEROES". Achilles, Ajax, Hector, Maximus, William Wallace, Aragorn, Gimli, etc. all wade into battle single-handedly. They charge the mass formations of the enemy and chop them to pieces. They obliterate the rank&file, and are only slowed when they encounter a worthy opponent. THAT'S what DND should play like. That's how the players should feel. They should be the ones who can charge into a formation of Orcs and tear them apart. They are the Heroes. And that's what I was looking for when I wrote up the Myrmidon. He's a hero...one who runs across the battlefield, leaving dead enemies in his wake and targeting commanders, champions, and other heroes like himself. Leave the formation fighting, phalanxes, and shield walls to the NPCs. I am sorry if anybody has mistaken my post and gotten offended!!! That was completely my mistaken interpretation of your post. No apology necessary.
TheOneRonin 06-02-05, 10:11 AM	Greetings all. I have been trying to figure out how to word a feat that lets a Shortsword+Shield wielding character get up very close to an opponent and prevent that opponent from being able to fight back effectively. I tried to do with the feat CLOSE QUARTERS EXPERTISE, but it didn't come out quite like I wanted it to. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can do this?
Quirriff 06-02-05, 10:52 AM	For crying out load, we don't need a Prc class to be a Myrmidon, Do we want to create about 10000 million Prc classes and Base classes to replace what 1 class can do. It's YOU people who are killing the fighter.
TheOneRonin 06-02-05, 11:18 AM	Whoa...calm down. First off, if you are trying to build a HISTORICAL Myrmidon from ancient Greece, then yes, you can do this with the Fighter base class. If you would have read this entire thread, you'd realize that "Myrmidon" is just a name I decided to use for flavor. This class was NOT, I repeat NOT designed to be a perfect facsimilie of the ACTUAL GREEK MYRMIDONS. If you can come up with a better name for this class, I'm all ears. In fact, from all of the misinterpretation I'm getting, I'm about a hair's width from changing it to something else like "Spear Charging Expert" or whatever just to keep you historians from bashing me over the head for the name choice. Secondly, "WE" have done nothing to "kill" the fighter. The problem here is the Fighter class itself. If the Fighter COULD do all that you say it can, then there would be no need nor desire by anyone to create a Fighter-ish prestige class. To me, you have two primary categories of prestige classes. The first type is the prestige class that blends two or more base classes together and does a better job than flat multiclassing. The Eldritch Knight, Bladesinger, and Spellsword are all perfect examples of this type of prestige class. The other category is the Prestige class that takes a certain ability or base class feature and focuses on developing/improving that one thing. These classes lose some flexibility, but gain exceptional power in their chosen niche. Order of the Bow Initiate, Frenzied Beserker, and the Myrmidon are all examples of this. Frankly, if a straight Fighter COULD do what my Myrmidon could do, then I never would have bothered to creat this prestige class. And for crying out "loud", why can't people read an entire thread before making a generalization based solely on the thread's title.
Mordin 06-02-05, 11:56 AM	For crying out load, we don't need a Prc class to be a Myrmidon, Do we want to create about 10000 million Prc classes and Base classes to replace what 1 class can do. It's YOU people who are killing the fighter. :mymy: Relax if you dont like it dont use it, its that simple. Its no fault of "ours" that the fighter class is only there for bonus feats. If you can build this class with a core fighter lets see it. ------------------------------ I would love to see some mechanics that simulate not just his jump attack "stroke of the gods" but how about the blow that kills Hextor. Achelies spining shield, spear tip, shield spear tip, and... thunk the spear makes it to the same target just got their without the jump. Maybe you could just add a different skill used when you dont want to use the "jump". Unfortunantly this brings me back to (bluff/sense motive) or something simillar. As far as geting close to an opponent with shield and sword use a variant of the Shield Pin feat.
flxbraden 06-02-05, 01:49 PM	Right. And while DND does emphasize teamwork, normal play is not conducive to things like shield walls and phalanxs. That sort of formation fighting is for armies and the rank&file common soldier. If you watch the movies Troy, Gladiator, Braveheart, and even Lord of the Rings, you see such tactics. But they aren't used by the "HEROES". Achilles, Ajax, Hector, Maximus, William Wallace, Aragorn, Gimli, etc. all wade into battle single-handedly. They charge the mass formations of the enemy and chop them to pieces. They obliterate the rank&file, and are only slowed when they encounter a worthy opponent. THAT'S what DND should play like. That's how the players should feel. They should be the ones who can charge into a formation of Orcs and tear them apart. They are the Heroes. And that's what I was looking for when I wrote up the Myrmidon. He's a hero...one who runs across the battlefield, leaving dead enemies in his wake and targeting commanders, champions, and other heroes like himself. Leave the formation fighting, phalanxes, and shield walls to the NPCs. Yes sir thats what it's all about. at least in the past 11 years thats what i have played a HERO.... I really like this prc...
TheOneRonin 06-02-05, 01:50 PM	I would love to see some mechanics that simulate not just his jump attack "stroke of the gods" but how about the blow that kills Hextor. Achelies spining shield, spear tip, shield spear tip, and... thunk the spear makes it to the same target just got their without the jump. If I remember correctly, he was spinning with his shortsword and spear head. It was more of a bluff type move...to keep Hector distracted, focusing on the sword attack and not noticing the follow up with the spear head. He uses a very similar move earlier on in the movie, when he is fighting his way up to the Temple of Apollo. In that scene, he had two shortswords and did the same overhead spinning maneuver, but buried one sword into a soldiers head instead. I've seen several different martial arts styles that employ a similar maneuver, and we do something very close to it in Escrima. However, I'm not quite sure how to make it into a feat/ability. If you have an idea, then fire away. Maybe you could just add a different skill used when you dont want to use the "jump". Unfortunantly this brings me back to (bluff/sense motive) or something simillar. Yeah. Perhaps this was just Achilles using "Improved Feint" and making his opponent flat footed, or something to that effect. As far as geting close to an opponent with shield and sword use a variant of the Shield Pin feat. I think I sorta did that with the Close Combat Expertise feat, but I'm still not happy with the result. And all the Pin Shield feat does is prevent your opponent from using his shield. What if he doesn't have one to begin with? If a character who is skilled with a shortsword and a shield can get up really close to one who is using a greatsword, he should be able to keep the greatsword guy from bringing his weapon fully to bear. I don't know...maybe such a thing is beyond the scope of DND feats/abilites.
flxbraden 06-02-05, 02:00 PM	i know in the one of the underdark books (forgot the name) it has a chart for negatives when in i cramped area (less than 5 feet you cant use a 2 handed weapon) i cant remember the whole chart. seemes like you could make a feat that gave that kinda advantage....
TheOneRonin 06-03-05, 01:35 PM	I sorta changed my mind about the Evasion thing. That ability, along with the increased reflex save provides too much magical defense and not enough mundane defense. So I went ahead and removed Evasion, and replaced it with Improved and Greater Mobility. The idea here is that while provoking AoOs from moving, the Myrmidon is still very difficult (but not impossible) to hit. That way, the Myrmidon's defense is more mundane and less supernatural. Plus it no longer steals the Rogue/Ranger/Monk's thunder. So what do you guys and girls think?
Mordin 06-05-05, 01:48 PM	I agree with the Mobility thing it seems to fit the concept of this class better IMO.
Ciradin 03-12-06, 08:02 AM	Achillies' Dad was named Peleus. The metion him like a bazillion times in the Illiad, but you never meet him.
Ruecian 08-15-06, 07:03 PM	All myrmidons and achilles are actually wearing a Bronze breastplate armor like described in the PHB (I said described LIKE not LIKE that one) Got a helmet, curiass, greaves, arm protections (forgot what they are called), and the skirt. Of course you can built this set of leather and make it count as light armor but using the stats of a chain shirt of course. If u use the bronze one, counts as medium armor, or mix bronze and leather and make your own armor). IMHO. Other than that, u got a nice Achilles based class. I wanted to see some of those spartan elves, I did spartan orcs (they were civilized version from their now leader half-orc, that lived with humans).
HatTrick 08-16-06, 02:37 PM	First off, sweet PRC. I wish my DMs were open to player created classes, cause I'd really really love to try this one out. Sure I will some day. Now for comments 1: :mymy: Relax if you dont like it dont use it, its that simple. Its no fault of "ours" that the fighter class is only there for bonus feats. If you can build this class with a core fighter lets see it. I don't think that the fighter is being killed by PrCs. If anything they're bringing it new life. As has been stated several times in this thread, this, and every other PrC, fills a niche. It's kinda like real life, you start with general training, move on to more specific and more specific untill you're specilizing. OR you never specialize and you're a jack of all trades (or weapons in this case). Fighter, to me, symbolizes general warrior type training, and it's feats, and the PrCs that you can get to from it, represent specialization. 2: I'm trying to think of some names, but in the meantime how about Myrmidon Hero or Myrmidon Legend, or some simple adition like that to seperate this class from the shield locking masses? (oh, and the idea of the shield locker, group fighter, etc, reminds me of the tactical soldier in the miniatures handbook). 3: I don't think the abilities of this class are in any way overpowered. You've got a really well thought out balance here I think. I also don't think that the skirmish abilitiy should be ruled out. If someone wants to take the extra levels for sirmish, they're losing some bonus feats, etc, so it's a trade off. I feel that for proper balance, an artificial (This ability can not be used with) is not as desirable as the idea of (hmmm, I could use that ability but I would be trading off this and this...). Like has been said about the attacking several foes, you're potentially better than wirwind, but there are downsides to consider (attacks of opportunity). 4: As for the strike of the gods. I really like what you're going for here, and I've often thought about trying to emulate that particular strike from the movie in various characters. I LOVE the idea of an actual class ability. I wonder about a couple points though a: In the movie, the big guy he took down likely was comparible to a straight fighter. Good BAB. With double BAB blocking he should have been able to avoid the strike. I almost feel like it's more a precision thing, maybe dex based in some way. Sure BAB represents combat prowess and should definately play a big part, but I feel like a rogue or monk would duck the strike, etc. I'm not sure double BAB is quite what you're looking for. I envision some use of touch AC, not including armor since you're going for a softspot. I also see that a ref save is part of not being reduced to 0, so that in some way represents avoiding the shot. I'm just kinda rambling on the point but hopfully it gives you some food for thought :) b: When Achilles' strike is blocked in the 1 on 1 duel, it staggers his opponant. Purhaps that is something you can incorperate. A successful block of the strike (making the save) staggers an opponant in some way. I'm gonna continue to watch to see how this pans out, really great char concept. Hope I helped in some small way.
Alpha_Moose 08-16-06, 10:51 PM	Great idea for a prestige class! Really like it, but the strike of the gods ability is a bit confusing. If you combine the monks quivering palms with the assassin's death strike you could get something simpler. I know you don't want a times/day thing or have to watch the opponent so many rounds, but it would be better (simpler) just having a DC based on class level. I don't have any real problems with the class as a whole, because he needs alot of room to make his abilities worthwhile.
TheOneRonin 01-24-07, 12:18 PM	Okay, so I'm like 5 months behind on replying to this. Haven't had a lot of DND going on for a while, so I'm just now getting back to the boards. It's good to see this thread STILL has some life. 8-) First off, sweet PRC. I wish my DMs were open to player created classes, cause I'd really really love to try this one out. Sure I will some day. Thanks for the kudos. And you should let your DM take a look at it. It never hurts. Oh, but make sure he's seen "Troy" first. ;-) Now for comments 2: I'm trying to think of some names, but in the meantime how about Myrmidon Hero or Myrmidon Legend, or some simple adition like that to seperate this class from the shield locking masses? (oh, and the idea of the shield locker, group fighter, etc, reminds me of the tactical soldier in the miniatures handbook). Very nice! I like it! Myrmidon Legend! I'll make that change right away! 3: I don't think the abilities of this class are in any way overpowered. You've got a really well thought out balance here I think. I also don't think that the skirmish abilitiy should be ruled out. If someone wants to take the extra levels for sirmish, they're losing some bonus feats, etc, so it's a trade off. I feel that for proper balance, an artificial (This ability can not be used with) is not as desirable as the idea of (hmmm, I could use that ability but I would be trading off this and this...). Like has been said about the attacking several foes, you're potentially better than wirwind, but there are downsides to consider (attacks of opportunity). Interesting perspective. I really don't know too much about all the classes that get the skirmish ability (outside of the scout). I imagine that losing feats and/or BAB would probably be a big enough hit to keep things balanced. However, if there is a 1/1 BAB progression skirmishing class out there, it would add a good bit of nastiness to the Myrmidon Ledgend. That's something I'd like to avoid. So for now I will remove the skirmish incompatibility. 4: As for the strike of the gods. I really like what you're going for here, and I've often thought about trying to emulate that particular strike from the movie in various characters. I LOVE the idea of an actual class ability. I wonder about a couple points though... Thanks again! It was tough to put mechanics to it, and I'm still not 100% happy with it. But it seems to work. a: In the movie, the big guy he took down likely was comparible to a straight fighter. Good BAB. With double BAB blocking he should have been able to avoid the strike. I almost feel like it's more a precision thing, maybe dex based in some way. Sure BAB represents combat prowess and should definately play a big part, but I feel like a rogue or monk would duck the strike, etc. I'm not sure double BAB is quite what you're looking for. I envision some use of touch AC, not including armor since you're going for a softspot. I also see that a ref save is part of not being reduced to 0, so that in some way represents avoiding the shot. I'm just kinda rambling on the point but hopfully it gives you some food for thought :) Most certianly food for thought. Here is the rationale behind my choices: #1 I wanted the Mymidon to be able to "one shot" lesser opponents, but not be able to reliably do it to equal/higher level NPCs. Basically, a greatsword wielding, power-attacking fighter can often do this with sheer damage and a full-attack. So I didn't feel like the ability would be "over-powered". #2 The earliest a Myrmidon would be able to do this is level 16. So what is his jump check going to look like at level 16? Max jump ranks: 19 Bonus from extra movement: +8 bonus from Str of 20: +5 Total: +32 to jump For a 16th level fighter, double his BAB would be +32. So basically these two opponents are looking at a straight opposed D20 roll...completely random, to determine who wins. Now, the Myrmidon's STR may be higher, or they may have a magic item that increases their jump check, but NPCs around their level should still have a chance. And even for those that fail the opposed roll, the save DC is not all that difficult for an opponent around the level of the Mymidon. If the Myrmidon from the above example were attacking a monk or rogue, that character would be facing a Ref save DC of 20. Seeing as how their base Ref save is 10 + Dex bonus, it should be very easy for them to avoid the death attack and simply walk away with just having suffered a critical hit. Basically, I wanted the Stroke of the Gods move to be useable vs. any lower level opponenets, but have enough safeguards built into it to prevent it from being a way to 1-shot the BBEG. Of course, the BBEG's lieutenant might not be so lucky. b: When Achilles' strike is blocked in the 1 on 1 duel, it staggers his opponant. Purhaps that is something you can incorperate. A successful block of the strike (making the save) staggers an opponant in some way. I had actually thought about that, but I figured the ability was powerful enough as is, and the "staggering" could be seen as making the save and avoiding the death attack, but still taking the crit damage. I'm gonna continue to watch to see how this pans out, really great char concept. Hope I helped in some small way. Thanks for your interest and feedback. I really appreciate it.
philnicau 01-24-07, 08:07 PM	The Myrmidon's were not Human, but were in fact Ants who had been given Human form by the gods, after a plague killed all of the Men on their Island. So they should be a Race.
Ioreck 01-25-07, 02:40 AM	I absolutely love this class. One of the best thing's I've seen on these forumns in a while. I've always felt that the fighter should branch into a prc at level 10, at the latest. We need more of these kinds of classes. Feats just don't cut it right now (unless you check out Races of War). Only thing I can say is about phalanx fighting... you have it as a prereq but you don't build on it anywhere. This seems very much like a solo class, running around on the battlefield, than one for fighting in regiments. That's more of a Spratan thing. Good stuff though. And it's good to see Mordin's still giving suggestions to cool classes. This recieves a bookmark!
TheOneRonin 01-25-07, 09:58 AM	The Myrmidon's were not Human, but were in fact Ants who had been given Human form by the gods, after a plague killed all of the Men on their Island. So they should be a Race. <shakes head> Apparently, expecting people to read the entire entry and not just comment on the title is asking too much.
Jaxgaret 01-25-07, 08:27 PM	Whoa whoa WHOA. To the people stating this and that fact about Achilles being the son of Zeus and the Myrmidons being ant people, just look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmidon Wiki-alwaysrightia ftw.
TheOneRonin 01-26-07, 10:34 AM	I absolutely love this class. One of the best thing's I've seen on these forumns in a while. Thank ya much! Only thing I can say is about phalanx fighting... you have it as a prereq but you don't build on it anywhere. This seems very much like a solo class, running around on the battlefield, than one for fighting in regiments. That's more of a Spratan thing. Well, there are three reasons I chose Phalanx Fighting as a prereq. #1: Fluff. Since the Myrmidon Legend has to start out his/her career in a different class, I figured the Phalanx Fighting feet would refect initial training in sword/spear and shield fighting. Basically, I couldn't find a better feat to emulate the light weapon + shield fighting the character has to know before taking levels in Myrmidon Legend. #2: Mechanical Advantage. Since the Myrmidon Legend will likely be fighting with a shield+light weapon his whole career, he needs SOMETHING to keep him from being grossely overshadowed by a two-handed warrior. #3: Delay class entry. This is a sort of balance issue. I wanted to setup the prereqs so that only the most bonus-feat heavy classes could get into it early. And Phalanx fighting seems to fit the background flavor of such a character.
Ioreck 01-26-07, 02:49 PM	Sounds good to me.
TheOneRonin 01-31-07, 01:39 PM	Well, with the upcoming film "300", I will likely end up revisiting my build of this class. I'm sure we are going to see plenty of interesting combat, and hopefully it will help me breathe new life into this class.
Ioreck 01-31-07, 07:47 PM	nonono! this class is great as is! for 300, what we'll need is a new class! or perhaps the same class will do. From the trailers, we've seen alot of "dynamic" combat, like in this class, but in the movie, there will no doubt be alot more historically acurate techniques. More reliance on teammates and defense, than just raw power. The spartan would no doubt be similar to this class, although I'd say more AB and AC abilities. They seem to be a better all around fighter, outclassing the opponent in every way.
Turaj 01-31-07, 08:14 PM	I agree. A new class needs to be made for the movie 300. This class seems to be more mobile, where the Spartans seem to stay grouped and then pummel the Persians into the ground. Love the class, can't wait to see any new developments! :love:
Ioreck 03-14-07, 11:14 PM	Soooo when are we gonna see a Spartan? 300 freakin rocked!!! More emphasis on sheer prowess, and teamwork!