Mystic Therge; can this work? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mystic Therge; can this work? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Meat_Grinder
04-15-08, 03:50 AM Mystic Theurge has always been one of my top favourite prestiges, but the overall opinion on it is that it is way too weak from low-to-mid levels, and that's true. Even if you use wizard and cleric to get to the class you'd still be 3 levels behind in spellcasting, meaning you'd have a hard time accessing the higher level spells.

The problem is even bigger with spontaneous casters, since you'd be 4 levels behind in spellcasting. However, I'm curious if this little trick would work and actually make a spontaneous Theurge somewhat competitive:

The trick is to take Kobold as your race. Now, most of you familiar with Kobold Sorcerers already can see where this is heading.

At 1st level, we take a level of Sorcerer and the Dragonwrought feat, changing our type to dragon. We also perfom the Draconic Rite of Passage from RoTD. Next, we have a look at Dragons of Eberron, mainly the Dragon Archetypes. From there, we choose Loredrake, giving us 2 levels of Sorcerer Spell known, Spells per Day, Caster level and such. Now our Kobold is casting spells as a 3rd level Sorcerer.

Next, we take 4 levels of Favored Soul from Complete Divine, giving us 4 levels of spontaneous casting in Cleric magic. So far, our level 5 Kobold is casting as a Lvl 3 Sorcerer and a Lvl 4 Favored Soul.

When we enter level six, we perform the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a9) Don't forget to take the Draconic Reservoir feat at lvl 3. This gives us one more level in Sorcerer Casting, meaning our Kobold now can cast as a Lvl 4 Sorcerer and a Lvl 4 Favored Soul, meaning he can cast both 2nd Lvl Arcane and Divine spells, as per the requirements in Mystic Theurge, so we enter that Prestige Class.

The result is a lvl 6 Kobold who casts spells as a Lvl 5 Sorcerer and a Lvl 5 Favored Soul, meaning he is only one level behind in casting with both classes. This should keep his Spell Levels high enough to be able to compete with the teams main Arcane/Divine casters, and also gives him an impressive amount of spells per day he can cast.

Can this trick actually work? Some might question the point of performing the Greater Rite before actually taking any level, but at least my DM let me do it. I just told him that my Kobold takes time in meditation and some other hoogabooga -stuff, has a "Heureka!" moment and becomes equally adept in both sides of his magical coin.
Damned slayer
04-15-08, 09:14 AM you take feat after you lvled so I think as written it doesn't work
would enter theurge at lvl 7
for the other parts don't know
I'm AFB and not familiar with those feat
RobbyPants
04-15-08, 09:21 AM Now our Kobold is casting spells as a 3rd level Sorcerer.

Next, we take 4 levels of Favored Soul from Complete Divine, giving us 4 levels of spontaneous casting in Cleric magic. So far, our level 5 Kobold is casting as a Lvl 3 Sorcerer and a Lvl 4 Favored Soul.

When we enter level six,
If I'm understanding this all correctly, you wouldn't be able to enter at level 6, because you'd only have 3 sorcerer levels, which only grants you 1st level spells.
Meat_Grinder
04-15-08, 09:31 AM you take feat after you lvled so I think as written it doesn't work

If you're talking about Draconic Reservoir, I forgot to mention that you're supposed to take it at Lvl 3. My bad.

But if you're not able to pull off the "Greater Draconic Rite" -trick, then it doesn't work. Just wanted to clarify that is this acceptable by the rules or was my DM just being generous.
Sinfire Titan
04-15-08, 10:13 AM Why bother with that headache and shaky rulings when you can use Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist and go Wizard 1/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10 and then finish with whatever you want?
Shadowhowler
04-15-08, 10:47 AM Why bother with that headache and shaky rulings when you can use Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist and go Wizard 1/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10 and then finish with whatever you want?

Sounds like he really wants spontanious casting... why eles go Sorcerer/Favored Soul rather then Wizard/Cleric or similar?
Sinfire Titan
04-15-08, 10:58 AM Sounds like he really wants spontanious casting... why eles go Sorcerer/Favored Soul rather then Wizard/Cleric or similar?

The only thing a Sorcerer is good for is being a Tazer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shockingGrasp.htm#) 24/7. Favored Soul doesn't even have that honor.

This is why Spirit Shaman is good. It doesn't suck the way those two do.
RobbyPants
04-15-08, 03:25 PM Sounds like he really wants spontanious casting... why eles go Sorcerer/Favored Soul rather then Wizard/Cleric or similar?
My guess is he's looking for Cha synergy between the two classes, and didn't think of the Archivist (which is primarily an Int-based divine caster).
Shadowhowler
04-15-08, 03:29 PM My guess is he's looking for Cha synergy between the two classes, and didn't think of the Archivist (which is primarily an Int-based divine caster).

Ah, good point... although the Favored Soul dose split it between Wis and Cha.
JulesCARV
04-15-08, 07:50 PM One issue I see with a multiclassed favored soul/sorcerer becoming a mystic theurge is that becoming a mystic theurge requires 6 ranks in knowledge (religion). Neither the sorcerer nor, bizarrely, the favored soul have that in-class. The soonest 6 ranks can be attained cross-class is 9th level. You could spend a feat on education to make all knowledge skills in-class, but it seems like you're already feat-squeezed there.

However, a sensible DM will generally say "favored souls getting knowledge (arcana) but not knowledge (religion) is probably a misprint. I rule that you get knowledge (religion)." However, the question is, would a sensible, RAW-laid back DM like that let you pull all these sorcerer spellcasting boosts too?

Could you explain the Dragons of Eberron trick regarding loredrake a bit more closely, without violating any product identity rules? What's involved in choosing a dragon archetype? Does it involve a ritual or what? I don't have DoE, so I'm curious.

Anyway, the idea of being sixth level for the purposes of the GDRoP but not having any specific class yet, but then entering mystic theurge as your sixth level class strikes me as pretty dubious. It seems to me that if you're 6th level, then you've got to have a 6th class level -- and if you didn't qualify for mystic theurge at the end of 5th level, you can't go into it. If you're not 6th level, then you can't undergo the GDRoP. Personally, I don't think it'd work. YMMV.
Wih
04-15-08, 09:34 PM Double Post
Wih
04-15-08, 09:59 PM Loredrake works like this:
Dragons from the Monster Manuals get abilities to cast spells from Domain lists as Sorceror spells, or other various abilities. Eberron Dragon Archtypes are given in Dragons of Eberron that let Dragons swap out their current archetype (such as a Blue casting Air, Evil, and Law spells) for another that isn't related to a stereotypical alignment. One option is Loredrake, which makes them cast as a Sorceror of 2 levels higher, but their Racial HD drops to a d10.

If what the OP is doing is getting 4th level sorceror casting from 1st level Sorceror + Loredrake + Greater Rite of Draconic Passage, that will give 4th level Sorceror casting. So at 6th level you'll have 4th level Favoured Soul and 4th level Sorceror casting (plus two other class levels of your choice). As long as you've somehow got the ranks (not possible without another feat which will need flaws, or classes that get the skills as class skills), you can take your 7th level as Mystic Theurge.
JulesCARV
04-15-08, 10:12 PM Thanks, Wih!
archerpwr
04-15-08, 10:30 PM I recently noticed this:
Middle Aged human, must have 19 int and bump it to 20 at 4.
Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 1/ MT 9/ Whatever 4
1) Iron Will
H) SF: Evil
3) Earth Sense
Wiz) Heighten Spell
6) Earth Spell

Only one level of wizard casting for 10th level Ur Priest. No vagueness on the Raw at all. Flaws and magical locations can free up 3 feats (change from human, nab spont. divination, etc).
Damned slayer
04-27-08, 07:59 PM when you pick the archetype do you lose the SLA you just gained or you keep them?

meaning that draconic reservoire would be a waste of feat only for greater rite?
JaronK
04-27-08, 08:27 PM First off, yes, early entry tricks and fast progression tricks both work to make MTs decent.

Second, take the White Dragonspawn template, which is a +1LA template that gives you, among other things, +1 level as a Sorcerer for casting. Very nice. With LA paydown, you can now do much better.

Of course, you're now a thrall to a White Dragon... but hey, you're a Kobold, so that's an honor anyway!

JaronK
Badbrownies
05-01-08, 12:08 AM A quick and easy solution to all of this is to play a Gestalting campaign. There - no more headaches and you could still pull all that stuff off but in half the time.
JaronK
05-01-08, 12:16 AM A quick and easy solution to all of this is to play a Gestalting campaign. There - no more headaches and you could still pull all that stuff off but in half the time.

But gestalt is a special rule that only comes up in campaigns designed around it.

The general solution is of course to just play an Archivist and get all the spells anyway, but of course that doesn't work if you want spontaneous casting.

JaronK

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meat_Grinder 04-15-08, 03:50 AM	Mystic Theurge has always been one of my top favourite prestiges, but the overall opinion on it is that it is way too weak from low-to-mid levels, and that's true. Even if you use wizard and cleric to get to the class you'd still be 3 levels behind in spellcasting, meaning you'd have a hard time accessing the higher level spells. The problem is even bigger with spontaneous casters, since you'd be 4 levels behind in spellcasting. However, I'm curious if this little trick would work and actually make a spontaneous Theurge somewhat competitive: The trick is to take Kobold as your race. Now, most of you familiar with Kobold Sorcerers already can see where this is heading. At 1st level, we take a level of Sorcerer and the Dragonwrought feat, changing our type to dragon. We also perfom the Draconic Rite of Passage from RoTD. Next, we have a look at Dragons of Eberron, mainly the Dragon Archetypes. From there, we choose Loredrake, giving us 2 levels of Sorcerer Spell known, Spells per Day, Caster level and such. Now our Kobold is casting spells as a 3rd level Sorcerer. Next, we take 4 levels of Favored Soul from Complete Divine, giving us 4 levels of spontaneous casting in Cleric magic. So far, our level 5 Kobold is casting as a Lvl 3 Sorcerer and a Lvl 4 Favored Soul. When we enter level six, we perform the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a9) Don't forget to take the Draconic Reservoir feat at lvl 3. This gives us one more level in Sorcerer Casting, meaning our Kobold now can cast as a Lvl 4 Sorcerer and a Lvl 4 Favored Soul, meaning he can cast both 2nd Lvl Arcane and Divine spells, as per the requirements in Mystic Theurge, so we enter that Prestige Class. The result is a lvl 6 Kobold who casts spells as a Lvl 5 Sorcerer and a Lvl 5 Favored Soul, meaning he is only one level behind in casting with both classes. This should keep his Spell Levels high enough to be able to compete with the teams main Arcane/Divine casters, and also gives him an impressive amount of spells per day he can cast. Can this trick actually work? Some might question the point of performing the Greater Rite before actually taking any level, but at least my DM let me do it. I just told him that my Kobold takes time in meditation and some other hoogabooga -stuff, has a "Heureka!" moment and becomes equally adept in both sides of his magical coin.
Damned slayer 04-15-08, 09:14 AM	you take feat after you lvled so I think as written it doesn't work would enter theurge at lvl 7 for the other parts don't know I'm AFB and not familiar with those feat
RobbyPants 04-15-08, 09:21 AM	Now our Kobold is casting spells as a 3rd level Sorcerer. Next, we take 4 levels of Favored Soul from Complete Divine, giving us 4 levels of spontaneous casting in Cleric magic. So far, our level 5 Kobold is casting as a Lvl 3 Sorcerer and a Lvl 4 Favored Soul. When we enter level six, If I'm understanding this all correctly, you wouldn't be able to enter at level 6, because you'd only have 3 sorcerer levels, which only grants you 1st level spells.
Meat_Grinder 04-15-08, 09:31 AM	you take feat after you lvled so I think as written it doesn't work If you're talking about Draconic Reservoir, I forgot to mention that you're supposed to take it at Lvl 3. My bad. But if you're not able to pull off the "Greater Draconic Rite" -trick, then it doesn't work. Just wanted to clarify that is this acceptable by the rules or was my DM just being generous.
Sinfire Titan 04-15-08, 10:13 AM	Why bother with that headache and shaky rulings when you can use Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist and go Wizard 1/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10 and then finish with whatever you want?
Shadowhowler 04-15-08, 10:47 AM	Why bother with that headache and shaky rulings when you can use Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist and go Wizard 1/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10 and then finish with whatever you want? Sounds like he really wants spontanious casting... why eles go Sorcerer/Favored Soul rather then Wizard/Cleric or similar?
Sinfire Titan 04-15-08, 10:58 AM	Sounds like he really wants spontanious casting... why eles go Sorcerer/Favored Soul rather then Wizard/Cleric or similar? The only thing a Sorcerer is good for is being a Tazer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shockingGrasp.htm#) 24/7. Favored Soul doesn't even have that honor. This is why Spirit Shaman is good. It doesn't suck the way those two do.
RobbyPants 04-15-08, 03:25 PM	Sounds like he really wants spontanious casting... why eles go Sorcerer/Favored Soul rather then Wizard/Cleric or similar? My guess is he's looking for Cha synergy between the two classes, and didn't think of the Archivist (which is primarily an Int-based divine caster).
Shadowhowler 04-15-08, 03:29 PM	My guess is he's looking for Cha synergy between the two classes, and didn't think of the Archivist (which is primarily an Int-based divine caster). Ah, good point... although the Favored Soul dose split it between Wis and Cha.
JulesCARV 04-15-08, 07:50 PM	One issue I see with a multiclassed favored soul/sorcerer becoming a mystic theurge is that becoming a mystic theurge requires 6 ranks in knowledge (religion). Neither the sorcerer nor, bizarrely, the favored soul have that in-class. The soonest 6 ranks can be attained cross-class is 9th level. You could spend a feat on education to make all knowledge skills in-class, but it seems like you're already feat-squeezed there. However, a sensible DM will generally say "favored souls getting knowledge (arcana) but not knowledge (religion) is probably a misprint. I rule that you get knowledge (religion)." However, the question is, would a sensible, RAW-laid back DM like that let you pull all these sorcerer spellcasting boosts too? Could you explain the Dragons of Eberron trick regarding loredrake a bit more closely, without violating any product identity rules? What's involved in choosing a dragon archetype? Does it involve a ritual or what? I don't have DoE, so I'm curious. Anyway, the idea of being sixth level for the purposes of the GDRoP but not having any specific class yet, but then entering mystic theurge as your sixth level class strikes me as pretty dubious. It seems to me that if you're 6th level, then you've got to have a 6th class level -- and if you didn't qualify for mystic theurge at the end of 5th level, you can't go into it. If you're not 6th level, then you can't undergo the GDRoP. Personally, I don't think it'd work. YMMV.
Wih 04-15-08, 09:34 PM	Double Post
Wih 04-15-08, 09:59 PM	Loredrake works like this: Dragons from the Monster Manuals get abilities to cast spells from Domain lists as Sorceror spells, or other various abilities. Eberron Dragon Archtypes are given in Dragons of Eberron that let Dragons swap out their current archetype (such as a Blue casting Air, Evil, and Law spells) for another that isn't related to a stereotypical alignment. One option is Loredrake, which makes them cast as a Sorceror of 2 levels higher, but their Racial HD drops to a d10. If what the OP is doing is getting 4th level sorceror casting from 1st level Sorceror + Loredrake + Greater Rite of Draconic Passage, that will give 4th level Sorceror casting. So at 6th level you'll have 4th level Favoured Soul and 4th level Sorceror casting (plus two other class levels of your choice). As long as you've somehow got the ranks (not possible without another feat which will need flaws, or classes that get the skills as class skills), you can take your 7th level as Mystic Theurge.
JulesCARV 04-15-08, 10:12 PM	Thanks, Wih!
archerpwr 04-15-08, 10:30 PM	I recently noticed this: Middle Aged human, must have 19 int and bump it to 20 at 4. Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 1/ MT 9/ Whatever 4 1) Iron Will H) SF: Evil 3) Earth Sense Wiz) Heighten Spell 6) Earth Spell Only one level of wizard casting for 10th level Ur Priest. No vagueness on the Raw at all. Flaws and magical locations can free up 3 feats (change from human, nab spont. divination, etc).
Damned slayer 04-27-08, 07:59 PM	when you pick the archetype do you lose the SLA you just gained or you keep them? meaning that draconic reservoire would be a waste of feat only for greater rite?
JaronK 04-27-08, 08:27 PM	First off, yes, early entry tricks and fast progression tricks both work to make MTs decent. Second, take the White Dragonspawn template, which is a +1LA template that gives you, among other things, +1 level as a Sorcerer for casting. Very nice. With LA paydown, you can now do much better. Of course, you're now a thrall to a White Dragon... but hey, you're a Kobold, so that's an honor anyway! JaronK
Badbrownies 05-01-08, 12:08 AM	A quick and easy solution to all of this is to play a Gestalting campaign. There - no more headaches and you could still pull all that stuff off but in half the time.
JaronK 05-01-08, 12:16 AM	A quick and easy solution to all of this is to play a Gestalting campaign. There - no more headaches and you could still pull all that stuff off but in half the time. But gestalt is a special rule that only comes up in campaigns designed around it. The general solution is of course to just play an Archivist and get all the spells anyway, but of course that doesn't work if you want spontaneous casting. JaronK