Mystic Theurge or Ultimate Magus? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mystic Theurge or Ultimate Magus? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
schlitz1231
08-31-07, 12:46 PM Hi! What would be a better prestige class for a party with a Barbarian, Assasin, Cleric, and Ranger(dual wield) ? Mystic Theurge (from DM Manual) or the Ultimate Magus (from Complete Mage) ?

Also, if its mystic theurge, which arcane spellcasting class would be better for that class, wiz or sorc?

Thanks in advance!
Coldin
08-31-07, 01:34 PM For which character?
1 ton ghost
08-31-07, 01:40 PM conservatively speaking, you already have 1 Divine so it stands to reason you should push for Arcane though i would be loathe to mulit-class Wiz/Sor, though that's an opinion of choice, not fact.

if you have no clr/brd, theurge is a very good idea. plus you have no moral debates about applications of magic if both spheres of influence rest w/in 1 caster. frequently, the cleric and mage often lock horns given they are the alleged "brain and heart" of the party. theurge is both and has undisputed power tactically and socially speaking.

in your specific case, i would go all Arcane and stress Wizard as they are more practical and can plan better for the long run
Hsien
08-31-07, 01:45 PM There are a couple variables there, and it really depends on what you like and the group.
At low-mid levels, a Druid/Wiz (conj)/MTh that specializes in summoning, Augment Summoning feat, can be brutal.
( haven't had opportunity to test high level yet )

UM, if DM allows the Practised Spellcaster trick, is very good if your looking towards high end games.
StevenO
08-31-07, 02:13 PM Given that you have the Tank, Skill, and Healing roles filled I'd suggest UM over the MT. The MT will cost you at least three levels of arcane magic and wether or not the cleric levels (also three behind) will make up for it is somewhat questionable. UM only needs to set you back one Wizard level of casting early and two by the time your done. You may not get as much utility from your "secondary" casting class but your primary should be almost as strong as a straight caster.
JoshuaZ
08-31-07, 10:25 PM Hi! What would be a better prestige class for a party with a Barbarian, Assasin, Cleric, and Ranger(dual wield) ? Mystic Theurge (from DM Manual) or the Ultimate Magus (from Complete Mage) ?

Also, if its mystic theurge, which arcane spellcasting class would be better for that class, wiz or sorc?

Thanks in advance!

Since you already have a cleric there's not much need to take mystic theurge since that makes you a weaker wizard who can do some of the things a cleric can do, but not as well as the straight cleric. On the other hand, the UM never gets 9th level spells before epic levels.
StevenO
08-31-07, 11:15 PM Since you already have a cleric there's not much need to take mystic theurge since that makes you a weaker wizard who can do some of the things a cleric can do, but not as well as the straight cleric. On the other hand, the UM never gets 9th level spells before epic levels.
While I generally agree with the statement about the MT and cleric but take a better look at the UM. It is general knowledge that using the Practiced Spellcaster feat early on your spontaneous casting class will allow the wizard casting to advance to 17th or 18th level by your 20th character level. Although the feats are tight it is possible to go UM and only lose two wizard casting levels while gaining nine casting levels of sorcerer.
schlitz1231
09-01-07, 01:11 AM For which character?

sorry, forgot to mention. im the fifth member, a mage(sorc or wiz)
schlitz1231
09-01-07, 01:17 AM thanks for the replies everyone!

...in your specific case, i would go all Arcane and stress Wizard as they are more practical and can plan better for the long run

actually im not really clear with the two mages, would it be correct to place the damage spells to sorc and the other types(invisibility, color spray, other situational spells) to wiz?
schlitz1231
09-01-07, 01:22 AM ...UM, if DM allows the Practised Spellcaster trick, is very good if your looking towards high end games.

Whats do you mean by the practised spellcaster trick? Also, "high end" meaning stong late game? Im really interested in the late game, since i would mostly be supporting my team during early levels.
imakuni67
09-01-07, 09:42 AM What is this practiced spellcaster feat i keep hearing so much about?
Hsien
09-01-07, 12:29 PM Check out the Ult Magus Handbook on the Ch Opt board...6th post

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=727042
StevenO
09-01-07, 02:39 PM Whats do you mean by the practised spellcaster trick? Also, "high end" meaning stong late game? Im really interested in the late game, since i would mostly be supporting my team during early levels.
Practiced Spellcaster is a feat which lets you "fill in" casting levels lost; a more complete description can be found other places with the feat being in at least the Complete Divine AND Complete Arcane.

For the UM the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" is using PS to increase the caster level of one spell type (normally the spontaneous class) so that it is higher than the other. This lets the levels the UM levels with a single +1 arcane spellcasting go toward the class with the lower CASTER LEVEL inspite of actually casting higher level spells. Normally the UM's casting is split 11/11 at 15th level but using practiced spellcaster you can make that split 12/10 favoring either spellcasting type or 13/9 favoring prepared spells. Giving up two levels of spellcasting isn't something a wizard should do lightly but it isn't such a bad option with the UM.

When figuring out which spells to take for which class you typically want the ones you'll cast a lot as sorcerer spells. I'd also put some no save spells into sorcerer as that is the class that typically gets the short end of UM. Another thing to recognize is that some spells slots are likely to be spent on "free" metamagic. When working on a Wizard/UM both the sorcerer and Beguiler (PHB2) can work well as the spontaneous side; the sorcerer gives you more freedom but the Beguiler know a lot more spells.
schlitz1231
09-02-07, 04:11 AM from what ive read in other posts, why do people seem to favor prepared class over the spontaneous class? actually i like the spontaneous one more because i need not think every day which spells to prepare and have more spells per day, but at the cost of flexibility.

also, are the 8th and 9th level spells really that powerful/important? (havent reached those levels.. highest i have ever reached is Char Level 7 or 3rd level spells)
ninjarabbit
09-02-07, 08:49 AM from what ive read in other posts, why do people seem to favor prepared class over the spontaneous class? actually i like the spontaneous one more because i need not think every day which spells to prepare and have more spells per day, but at the cost of flexibility.

also, are the 8th and 9th level spells really that powerful/important? (havent reached those levels.. highest i have ever reached is Char Level 7 or 3rd level spells)

Because UM requires being able to cast 2nd levle prepared spells vs only requiring 1st level spontanious spells so you're going in that direction anyways.

And yes 8th and 9th levels spells are that good and powerful. Spells like wish, shapechange, time stop, mindblank, polymorph any object, dominate monster, and gate are the gamebreakers.
StevenO
09-02-07, 03:03 PM from what ive read in other posts, why do people seem to favor prepared class over the spontaneous class? actually i like the spontaneous one more because i need not think every day which spells to prepare and have more spells per day, but at the cost of flexibility.

also, are the 8th and 9th level spells really that powerful/important? (havent reached those levels.. highest i have ever reached is Char Level 7 or 3rd level spells)
People favor the prepared class in UM because you almost always enter the class casting spells one level higher. It can work for spontaneous casters but the best they get is a 17/10 split which means no 9th level spells. If favoring the spontaneous class you're also more likely to enter UM as a Wiz3/Sor2 to minimize losses but that also means you will not get 2nd level spontaneos spells until character level 6 which is a big setback.
Jaxgaret
09-02-07, 09:16 PM from what ive read in other posts, why do people seem to favor prepared class over the spontaneous class? actually i like the spontaneous one more because i need not think every day which spells to prepare and have more spells per day, but at the cost of flexibility.

also, are the 8th and 9th level spells really that powerful/important? (havent reached those levels.. highest i have ever reached is Char Level 7 or 3rd level spells)

I would recommend that if you prefer spontaneous casting, just go with a straight Sorcerer. A UM focused on its spontaneous casting is suboptimal.

You may also want a little more experience under your belt before you start tackling the complicated casting progression of a character such as a UM.
schlitz1231
09-03-07, 09:05 AM I would recommend that if you prefer spontaneous casting, just go with a straight Sorcerer.A UM focused on its spontaneous casting is suboptimal.

You may also want a little more experience under your belt before you start tackling the complicated casting progression of a character such as a UM.

oh i see.. well, i actually went forward with the UM, with focus on the Wiz. hehehe... unless we would have a reset on our charcters, il have to go forward with the UM. il just have to read more i suppose. thanks for the responses everyone!
Umbral
09-04-07, 01:13 PM UM (with fix) is good. (MT sucks).

Just remember to take the Practiced Spellcasster feat for the Sorcerer side before taking the first UM level, and you are ok.

Other options with the UM: Rather than do Sorcerer on the spont side, you can do Beguiler. Or Warmage for the blasting!

Wizard side can go with a specialist/focused specialist, and you can bar schools that you pick up spells from in your spontaneous side.
schlitz1231
09-05-07, 10:47 AM Other options with the UM: Rather than do Sorcerer on the spont side, you can do Beguiler. Or Warmage for the blasting!

Hmm.. sounds good. didn't thought of that.. actually i have no idea of the beguiler, but i have read about the warmage, and its a kinda nice class, combined with the ability of the UM to somehow share spells between the two mage classes.

Wizard side can go with a specialist/focused specialist, and you can bar schools that you pick up spells from in your spontaneous side.

With regards to this, im planning on taking evocation & enchantment as a prohibited school, but im having second thoughts, since we might need a good crowd control spells.. Another thing is that by doing the "UM trick", the levels would not be equal, therefore, whatever prohibited school i choose, i would not be able to acquire its higher level spells. Any suggestions on the prohibited schools?

Just a note, in our game, reflex saves arent applied yet, still talking about some of the rules.
StevenO
09-05-07, 02:09 PM I mentioned the Beguiler up in post #13. It is found in the PHB2 and is similiar to a Sorcerer focusing in enchantments and illusions with the skills of a rogue. Its big upside for UM is that its casting is INT based and that it "knows" all of the spells on its spell list unlike the sorcerer who has to pick and choose. There is some question to wether or not you can transfer a "wizard" spell over to beguiler which you normally wouldn't have access to but I hope most DMs would allow it. When using UM with the Beguiler I'm more likely to go target a 17/10 split instead of an 18/9 that I would with a sorcerer; getting that 5th level slot for the beguiler also opens up a lot more spell options than just getting 1+1 spells known for a sorcerer and doesn't require increasing you CHA past 14. When working with the Beguiler/UM I often prefer actual Beguiler levels because of the skill points, hit points, and a few minor class features instead of using up the single +1 spellcasting in UM; it may mean I have fewer levels to work with when I'm done with UM but I can live with that.

I don't like the warmage for the "low" side of UM so much. The problem being that almost all the class does is blast and after a point those lower level spells will not cut it because of DCs and possibly SR. Part of what makes the Warmage interesting to begin with are its later class abilities which you will not see as a UM. On the other hand if going with the Warmage as the "high" side of a UM build and using Wizard as support is something I could go for although that does mean you forsake 9th level spells pre-epic.

If going for a specialist wizard on one side of UM what schools to ban should follow normal guidelines. Just because a school is banned from your wizard casting doesn't mean you can't use those "banned" spells from you spontaneous casting class. Even early on it was suggested that a specialist wizard could take a single level of sorcerer to gain access to spell completion items from their banned schools; the UM makes that much easier with addition benefits.
schlitz1231
09-06-07, 10:53 AM Sorry, i guess i missed that part of the post. I recently checked the beguiler, and it does look good, actually somewhat better than sorc, also, it gives me the chance to put point in another stat as well. Another benefit I really liked about it is the fact that i would not need to worry about choosing a spell for the beguiler. I'll have to think about the 18/9 or 17/10 split, might get tempted to go 18 for the additional spell.

Another question, after a few more hours of reading through more books, I'm again thinking of changing class! hehe.. if there would be a good arcane PrC for spontaneous caster(preferably) or prepared class. Thought of this when I saw the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. May I continue asking for help with other PrC's or should I start a new thread?
StevenO
09-06-07, 01:51 PM Beguiler vs. Sorcerer for a UM build often comes down do how "restricted" do you think the Beguiler's spell list is compared to what spells you'd want to know as a sorcerer. Beyond that the Beguiler is better in every way (ok, you're familiar wouldn't get the sorcerer bump but the I'd be using the alternate metamagic feature for the sorcerer which is also found in the PHB2.) as it had better base class features and uses INT as a casting stat so you don't need to double up.

Targetting an 18/9 or 17/10 split can be challenging. When going with the Sorcerer I say the 18/9 is a no brainer because your gaining an extra 8th and 9th level slot (and probably getting two new 9th level spells) instead of picking up a single 5th level sorcerer spell; additionally not needing the CHA above 14 to cast all your spontaneous spells is an added benefit. With the Beguiler it isn't so clear because instead of those couple extra wizard spells and slot you gain a whole list of options by getting 5th level beguiler spells.

If you want information on another PrC I suggest doing a search for it, probably restricted to the class and character optimization boards, to find more information on it first. The 7FV is seen as a very strong PrC that ties in nicely with Archmage at the highest levels.
malignor
09-06-07, 02:14 PM Personally, I would go MT.
Having a backup healer is always nice.
Plus you can use pretty much any magic item.

I like the Druid/Wiz(conj) idea mentioned earlier. Though the summons would be a little weak, you'd have some serious battlefield control.
schlitz1231
09-07-07, 12:23 PM After thinking it over, from what i saw in the posts here and other threads as well, and asking our DM as well if he would allow another change in character class (since our most recent D&D session did not have much combat, mostly character fixing and story based), I'm really thinking on changing classes! Sorry for the sudden change of mind, don't worry, after this decision, I'm sure it would be permanent. ;) well, it basically went back to sorc vs beguiler. and whatever PrC's would fit them. I guess a prepared class just isnt for me..
schlitz1231
09-07-07, 12:27 PM just to add to the post. Im not sure as to whether our damage output would be enough without the other sorc/wiz spells if ever i choose beguiler, but i really like the fact that he automatically knows all the spells in his list, this would make it easier for me since i don't have to choose which spells would fit most situations better..but i think this would be going out of the topic already... hehehe
Umbral
09-07-07, 12:34 PM If you're still thinking Beguiler for UM, make sure the Beguiler is your first level.

Otherwise, if you prefer spont spells to prepared, it is possible to make the spont side of an UM primary.
Not quite as powerful, but you may enjoy it more. Have a lower-level Wizard side for flexibility. Maybe specialize that, as you will not lose any higher spells on that.
The_Shaman
09-07-07, 12:37 PM A wizard/beguiler UM is nice. If you want to make a Theurge, consider using Archivist instead of cleric for the Int synergy. While they need to actually scribe spells, iirc they can scribe spells from every divine list.
Umbral
09-07-07, 12:44 PM I would heavily advise against the Mystic Theurge. It is mentioned in the "Worst PrC" thread for a reason. Especially since your party has a cleric who will already be doing everything on the Divine side way better than you.

If you want a divine/arcane caster, a straight Cleric, or an Archivist with the Spell Domain is much more effective. (Domain through PrC)
Jaxgaret
09-07-07, 02:44 PM just to add to the post. Im not sure as to whether our damage output would be enough without the other sorc/wiz spells if ever i choose beguiler, but i really like the fact that he automatically knows all the spells in his list, this would make it easier for me since i don't have to choose which spells would fit most situations better..but i think this would be going out of the topic already... hehehe

What's the rest of your party's composition?

If you don't already have a dedicated Trapfinder, definitely go with Beguiler.
forsaken1111
09-07-07, 02:55 PM What's the rest of your party's composition?

If you don't already have a dedicated Trapfinder, definitely go with Beguiler.

Did you miss the first post?
AtsuiShoto
09-07-07, 06:01 PM I actually think that with the Precocious Apprentice cheese to enter it, the Mystic Theurge is pretty cool. I would go Sorc 1/ Cleric 3/ MT X
schlitz1231
09-07-07, 11:19 PM What's the rest of your party's composition?

If you don't already have a dedicated Trapfinder, definitely go with Beguiler.

Our party comprises of barbarian, ranger(TWF style), assasin, cleric, and mage(me). The assasin is the one who looks for traps.
Jaxgaret
09-08-07, 03:56 PM Did you miss the first post?

Our party comprises of barbarian, ranger(TWF style), assasin, cleric, and mage(me). The assasin is the one who looks for traps.

Woops. Yeah, I completely missed that. :embarrass

I would say go with Sorcerer then.

Another good choice would be Bard/Sublime Chord due to your plethora of melee damage dealers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
schlitz1231 08-31-07, 12:46 PM	Hi! What would be a better prestige class for a party with a Barbarian, Assasin, Cleric, and Ranger(dual wield) ? Mystic Theurge (from DM Manual) or the Ultimate Magus (from Complete Mage) ? Also, if its mystic theurge, which arcane spellcasting class would be better for that class, wiz or sorc? Thanks in advance!
Coldin 08-31-07, 01:34 PM	For which character?
1 ton ghost 08-31-07, 01:40 PM	conservatively speaking, you already have 1 Divine so it stands to reason you should push for Arcane though i would be loathe to mulit-class Wiz/Sor, though that's an opinion of choice, not fact. if you have no clr/brd, theurge is a very good idea. plus you have no moral debates about applications of magic if both spheres of influence rest w/in 1 caster. frequently, the cleric and mage often lock horns given they are the alleged "brain and heart" of the party. theurge is both and has undisputed power tactically and socially speaking. in your specific case, i would go all Arcane and stress Wizard as they are more practical and can plan better for the long run
Hsien 08-31-07, 01:45 PM	There are a couple variables there, and it really depends on what you like and the group. At low-mid levels, a Druid/Wiz (conj)/MTh that specializes in summoning, Augment Summoning feat, can be brutal. ( haven't had opportunity to test high level yet ) UM, if DM allows the Practised Spellcaster trick, is very good if your looking towards high end games.
StevenO 08-31-07, 02:13 PM	Given that you have the Tank, Skill, and Healing roles filled I'd suggest UM over the MT. The MT will cost you at least three levels of arcane magic and wether or not the cleric levels (also three behind) will make up for it is somewhat questionable. UM only needs to set you back one Wizard level of casting early and two by the time your done. You may not get as much utility from your "secondary" casting class but your primary should be almost as strong as a straight caster.
JoshuaZ 08-31-07, 10:25 PM	Hi! What would be a better prestige class for a party with a Barbarian, Assasin, Cleric, and Ranger(dual wield) ? Mystic Theurge (from DM Manual) or the Ultimate Magus (from Complete Mage) ? Also, if its mystic theurge, which arcane spellcasting class would be better for that class, wiz or sorc? Thanks in advance! Since you already have a cleric there's not much need to take mystic theurge since that makes you a weaker wizard who can do some of the things a cleric can do, but not as well as the straight cleric. On the other hand, the UM never gets 9th level spells before epic levels.
StevenO 08-31-07, 11:15 PM	Since you already have a cleric there's not much need to take mystic theurge since that makes you a weaker wizard who can do some of the things a cleric can do, but not as well as the straight cleric. On the other hand, the UM never gets 9th level spells before epic levels. While I generally agree with the statement about the MT and cleric but take a better look at the UM. It is general knowledge that using the Practiced Spellcaster feat early on your spontaneous casting class will allow the wizard casting to advance to 17th or 18th level by your 20th character level. Although the feats are tight it is possible to go UM and only lose two wizard casting levels while gaining nine casting levels of sorcerer.
schlitz1231 09-01-07, 01:11 AM	For which character? sorry, forgot to mention. im the fifth member, a mage(sorc or wiz)
schlitz1231 09-01-07, 01:17 AM	thanks for the replies everyone! ...in your specific case, i would go all Arcane and stress Wizard as they are more practical and can plan better for the long run actually im not really clear with the two mages, would it be correct to place the damage spells to sorc and the other types(invisibility, color spray, other situational spells) to wiz?
schlitz1231 09-01-07, 01:22 AM	...UM, if DM allows the Practised Spellcaster trick, is very good if your looking towards high end games. Whats do you mean by the practised spellcaster trick? Also, "high end" meaning stong late game? Im really interested in the late game, since i would mostly be supporting my team during early levels.
imakuni67 09-01-07, 09:42 AM	What is this practiced spellcaster feat i keep hearing so much about?
Hsien 09-01-07, 12:29 PM	Check out the Ult Magus Handbook on the Ch Opt board...6th post http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=727042
StevenO 09-01-07, 02:39 PM	Whats do you mean by the practised spellcaster trick? Also, "high end" meaning stong late game? Im really interested in the late game, since i would mostly be supporting my team during early levels. Practiced Spellcaster is a feat which lets you "fill in" casting levels lost; a more complete description can be found other places with the feat being in at least the Complete Divine AND Complete Arcane. For the UM the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" is using PS to increase the caster level of one spell type (normally the spontaneous class) so that it is higher than the other. This lets the levels the UM levels with a single +1 arcane spellcasting go toward the class with the lower CASTER LEVEL inspite of actually casting higher level spells. Normally the UM's casting is split 11/11 at 15th level but using practiced spellcaster you can make that split 12/10 favoring either spellcasting type or 13/9 favoring prepared spells. Giving up two levels of spellcasting isn't something a wizard should do lightly but it isn't such a bad option with the UM. When figuring out which spells to take for which class you typically want the ones you'll cast a lot as sorcerer spells. I'd also put some no save spells into sorcerer as that is the class that typically gets the short end of UM. Another thing to recognize is that some spells slots are likely to be spent on "free" metamagic. When working on a Wizard/UM both the sorcerer and Beguiler (PHB2) can work well as the spontaneous side; the sorcerer gives you more freedom but the Beguiler know a lot more spells.
schlitz1231 09-02-07, 04:11 AM	from what ive read in other posts, why do people seem to favor prepared class over the spontaneous class? actually i like the spontaneous one more because i need not think every day which spells to prepare and have more spells per day, but at the cost of flexibility. also, are the 8th and 9th level spells really that powerful/important? (havent reached those levels.. highest i have ever reached is Char Level 7 or 3rd level spells)
ninjarabbit 09-02-07, 08:49 AM	from what ive read in other posts, why do people seem to favor prepared class over the spontaneous class? actually i like the spontaneous one more because i need not think every day which spells to prepare and have more spells per day, but at the cost of flexibility. also, are the 8th and 9th level spells really that powerful/important? (havent reached those levels.. highest i have ever reached is Char Level 7 or 3rd level spells) Because UM requires being able to cast 2nd levle prepared spells vs only requiring 1st level spontanious spells so you're going in that direction anyways. And yes 8th and 9th levels spells are that good and powerful. Spells like wish, shapechange, time stop, mindblank, polymorph any object, dominate monster, and gate are the gamebreakers.
StevenO 09-02-07, 03:03 PM	from what ive read in other posts, why do people seem to favor prepared class over the spontaneous class? actually i like the spontaneous one more because i need not think every day which spells to prepare and have more spells per day, but at the cost of flexibility. also, are the 8th and 9th level spells really that powerful/important? (havent reached those levels.. highest i have ever reached is Char Level 7 or 3rd level spells) People favor the prepared class in UM because you almost always enter the class casting spells one level higher. It can work for spontaneous casters but the best they get is a 17/10 split which means no 9th level spells. If favoring the spontaneous class you're also more likely to enter UM as a Wiz3/Sor2 to minimize losses but that also means you will not get 2nd level spontaneos spells until character level 6 which is a big setback.
Jaxgaret 09-02-07, 09:16 PM	from what ive read in other posts, why do people seem to favor prepared class over the spontaneous class? actually i like the spontaneous one more because i need not think every day which spells to prepare and have more spells per day, but at the cost of flexibility. also, are the 8th and 9th level spells really that powerful/important? (havent reached those levels.. highest i have ever reached is Char Level 7 or 3rd level spells) I would recommend that if you prefer spontaneous casting, just go with a straight Sorcerer. A UM focused on its spontaneous casting is suboptimal. You may also want a little more experience under your belt before you start tackling the complicated casting progression of a character such as a UM.
schlitz1231 09-03-07, 09:05 AM	I would recommend that if you prefer spontaneous casting, just go with a straight Sorcerer.A UM focused on its spontaneous casting is suboptimal. You may also want a little more experience under your belt before you start tackling the complicated casting progression of a character such as a UM. oh i see.. well, i actually went forward with the UM, with focus on the Wiz. hehehe... unless we would have a reset on our charcters, il have to go forward with the UM. il just have to read more i suppose. thanks for the responses everyone!
Umbral 09-04-07, 01:13 PM	UM (with fix) is good. (MT sucks). Just remember to take the Practiced Spellcasster feat for the Sorcerer side before taking the first UM level, and you are ok. Other options with the UM: Rather than do Sorcerer on the spont side, you can do Beguiler. Or Warmage for the blasting! Wizard side can go with a specialist/focused specialist, and you can bar schools that you pick up spells from in your spontaneous side.
schlitz1231 09-05-07, 10:47 AM	Other options with the UM: Rather than do Sorcerer on the spont side, you can do Beguiler. Or Warmage for the blasting! Hmm.. sounds good. didn't thought of that.. actually i have no idea of the beguiler, but i have read about the warmage, and its a kinda nice class, combined with the ability of the UM to somehow share spells between the two mage classes. Wizard side can go with a specialist/focused specialist, and you can bar schools that you pick up spells from in your spontaneous side. With regards to this, im planning on taking evocation & enchantment as a prohibited school, but im having second thoughts, since we might need a good crowd control spells.. Another thing is that by doing the "UM trick", the levels would not be equal, therefore, whatever prohibited school i choose, i would not be able to acquire its higher level spells. Any suggestions on the prohibited schools? Just a note, in our game, reflex saves arent applied yet, still talking about some of the rules.
StevenO 09-05-07, 02:09 PM	I mentioned the Beguiler up in post #13. It is found in the PHB2 and is similiar to a Sorcerer focusing in enchantments and illusions with the skills of a rogue. Its big upside for UM is that its casting is INT based and that it "knows" all of the spells on its spell list unlike the sorcerer who has to pick and choose. There is some question to wether or not you can transfer a "wizard" spell over to beguiler which you normally wouldn't have access to but I hope most DMs would allow it. When using UM with the Beguiler I'm more likely to go target a 17/10 split instead of an 18/9 that I would with a sorcerer; getting that 5th level slot for the beguiler also opens up a lot more spell options than just getting 1+1 spells known for a sorcerer and doesn't require increasing you CHA past 14. When working with the Beguiler/UM I often prefer actual Beguiler levels because of the skill points, hit points, and a few minor class features instead of using up the single +1 spellcasting in UM; it may mean I have fewer levels to work with when I'm done with UM but I can live with that. I don't like the warmage for the "low" side of UM so much. The problem being that almost all the class does is blast and after a point those lower level spells will not cut it because of DCs and possibly SR. Part of what makes the Warmage interesting to begin with are its later class abilities which you will not see as a UM. On the other hand if going with the Warmage as the "high" side of a UM build and using Wizard as support is something I could go for although that does mean you forsake 9th level spells pre-epic. If going for a specialist wizard on one side of UM what schools to ban should follow normal guidelines. Just because a school is banned from your wizard casting doesn't mean you can't use those "banned" spells from you spontaneous casting class. Even early on it was suggested that a specialist wizard could take a single level of sorcerer to gain access to spell completion items from their banned schools; the UM makes that much easier with addition benefits.
schlitz1231 09-06-07, 10:53 AM	Sorry, i guess i missed that part of the post. I recently checked the beguiler, and it does look good, actually somewhat better than sorc, also, it gives me the chance to put point in another stat as well. Another benefit I really liked about it is the fact that i would not need to worry about choosing a spell for the beguiler. I'll have to think about the 18/9 or 17/10 split, might get tempted to go 18 for the additional spell. Another question, after a few more hours of reading through more books, I'm again thinking of changing class! hehe.. if there would be a good arcane PrC for spontaneous caster(preferably) or prepared class. Thought of this when I saw the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. May I continue asking for help with other PrC's or should I start a new thread?
StevenO 09-06-07, 01:51 PM	Beguiler vs. Sorcerer for a UM build often comes down do how "restricted" do you think the Beguiler's spell list is compared to what spells you'd want to know as a sorcerer. Beyond that the Beguiler is better in every way (ok, you're familiar wouldn't get the sorcerer bump but the I'd be using the alternate metamagic feature for the sorcerer which is also found in the PHB2.) as it had better base class features and uses INT as a casting stat so you don't need to double up. Targetting an 18/9 or 17/10 split can be challenging. When going with the Sorcerer I say the 18/9 is a no brainer because your gaining an extra 8th and 9th level slot (and probably getting two new 9th level spells) instead of picking up a single 5th level sorcerer spell; additionally not needing the CHA above 14 to cast all your spontaneous spells is an added benefit. With the Beguiler it isn't so clear because instead of those couple extra wizard spells and slot you gain a whole list of options by getting 5th level beguiler spells. If you want information on another PrC I suggest doing a search for it, probably restricted to the class and character optimization boards, to find more information on it first. The 7FV is seen as a very strong PrC that ties in nicely with Archmage at the highest levels.
malignor 09-06-07, 02:14 PM	Personally, I would go MT. Having a backup healer is always nice. Plus you can use pretty much any magic item. I like the Druid/Wiz(conj) idea mentioned earlier. Though the summons would be a little weak, you'd have some serious battlefield control.
schlitz1231 09-07-07, 12:23 PM	After thinking it over, from what i saw in the posts here and other threads as well, and asking our DM as well if he would allow another change in character class (since our most recent D&D session did not have much combat, mostly character fixing and story based), I'm really thinking on changing classes! Sorry for the sudden change of mind, don't worry, after this decision, I'm sure it would be permanent. ;) well, it basically went back to sorc vs beguiler. and whatever PrC's would fit them. I guess a prepared class just isnt for me..
schlitz1231 09-07-07, 12:27 PM	just to add to the post. Im not sure as to whether our damage output would be enough without the other sorc/wiz spells if ever i choose beguiler, but i really like the fact that he automatically knows all the spells in his list, this would make it easier for me since i don't have to choose which spells would fit most situations better..but i think this would be going out of the topic already... hehehe
Umbral 09-07-07, 12:34 PM	If you're still thinking Beguiler for UM, make sure the Beguiler is your first level. Otherwise, if you prefer spont spells to prepared, it is possible to make the spont side of an UM primary. Not quite as powerful, but you may enjoy it more. Have a lower-level Wizard side for flexibility. Maybe specialize that, as you will not lose any higher spells on that.
The_Shaman 09-07-07, 12:37 PM	A wizard/beguiler UM is nice. If you want to make a Theurge, consider using Archivist instead of cleric for the Int synergy. While they need to actually scribe spells, iirc they can scribe spells from every divine list.
Umbral 09-07-07, 12:44 PM	I would heavily advise against the Mystic Theurge. It is mentioned in the "Worst PrC" thread for a reason. Especially since your party has a cleric who will already be doing everything on the Divine side way better than you. If you want a divine/arcane caster, a straight Cleric, or an Archivist with the Spell Domain is much more effective. (Domain through PrC)
Jaxgaret 09-07-07, 02:44 PM	just to add to the post. Im not sure as to whether our damage output would be enough without the other sorc/wiz spells if ever i choose beguiler, but i really like the fact that he automatically knows all the spells in his list, this would make it easier for me since i don't have to choose which spells would fit most situations better..but i think this would be going out of the topic already... hehehe What's the rest of your party's composition? If you don't already have a dedicated Trapfinder, definitely go with Beguiler.
forsaken1111 09-07-07, 02:55 PM	What's the rest of your party's composition? If you don't already have a dedicated Trapfinder, definitely go with Beguiler. Did you miss the first post?
AtsuiShoto 09-07-07, 06:01 PM	I actually think that with the Precocious Apprentice cheese to enter it, the Mystic Theurge is pretty cool. I would go Sorc 1/ Cleric 3/ MT X
schlitz1231 09-07-07, 11:19 PM	What's the rest of your party's composition? If you don't already have a dedicated Trapfinder, definitely go with Beguiler. Our party comprises of barbarian, ranger(TWF style), assasin, cleric, and mage(me). The assasin is the one who looks for traps.
Jaxgaret 09-08-07, 03:56 PM	Did you miss the first post? Our party comprises of barbarian, ranger(TWF style), assasin, cleric, and mage(me). The assasin is the one who looks for traps. Woops. Yeah, I completely missed that. :embarrass I would say go with Sorcerer then. Another good choice would be Bard/Sublime Chord due to your plethora of melee damage dealers.