Mystic Theurge Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mystic Theurge Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Radablast
07-11-07, 02:32 PM Greetings!

Question: When a Sor/Clr/MT goes up a level in MT, is he still able to swap out a spell from his Sor spell list at even numbered levels? If so, how do you decide which level is the even numbered level?

For example, lets say the PC is high enough to gain Greater Dispel Magic and no longer needs the 3rd level spell Dispel Magic, can he swap out the third level spell for a different one?

Any supporting documentation would be great, if possible. :)

Thank you!
rironin
07-11-07, 02:36 PM Since the description of swapping spells at 4th level and every even-numbered level thereafter is part of the Spells class feature for the Sorcerer, and not some other class feature, then I believe that you are able to swap out spells when you gain the appropriate Mystic Theurge level.

As for when, you have an "effective sorcerer level" - if you were a Sor 4/Clr 3/MT 1, for instance, you cast Spells as a level 5 sorcerer. With one more level of MT, you would cast spells as a level 6 sorcerer, and this would be your next "even numbered level" of sorcerer spellcasting, at which point you would be able to swap a spell.
zorgling25
07-11-07, 02:37 PM When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Reading this strictly, I would say that no, you would not get to swap out spells. The ability to swap out spells is an ability exclusive to the Sorcerer (clerics, wizards and druids don't get it), and therefore counts as a class ability. Its up to you DM, ultimately though.

On a side not, why would you swap out Dispel Magic, even after you got Greater Dispelling? Its still very possible to make the caster level checks, and you'd probably have more casts/day for Dispel Magic than Greater Dispelling.
rironin
07-11-07, 02:43 PM Reading this strictly, I would say that no, you would not get to swap out spells. The ability to swap out spells is an ability exclusive to the Sorcerer (clerics, wizards and druids don't get it), and therefore counts as a class ability. Its up to you DM, ultimately though.

On a side not, why would you swap out Dispel Magic, even after you got Greater Dispelling? Its still very possible to make the caster level checks, and you'd probably have more casts/day for Dispel Magic than Greater Dispelling.Hmm, you may be right. Didn't read it uber-closely. I guess it depends on how you read "gains new spells per day as if you had gained a level..."

On the one hand, you could say that that means you only learn new spells and get new spells per day. But on the other hand, I think that a wizard mystic theurge would gain two new spells for his spellbook when he gained a level, would he not? That is a wizard-exclusive ability. The swapping is a part of how sorcerers gain new spells, similar to how wizards get those two spells in their spellbook when they gain a level.

Personally, my instinct would be to take the entire "Spells" entry from the classes you're basing mystic theurge on, and effectively paste them into your class abilities as a mystic theurge. It seems like this "Spells" section always details the basic way the class gains spells, and lists other class abilities elsewhere. I'd be inclined to give the mystic theurge everything the "Spells" section includes from both classes - unless there's some class that breaks this pattern that I'm not aware of.
Puca
07-11-07, 02:47 PM Strictly speaking, zorgling is correct. It does specifically say "even numbered sorcerer level" so it could be ruled as not applicable when you advance in a PrC. They arent, strictly speaking, sorcerer levels.

I do agree with rironin though on how it should be interpreted. The ability to swap is a part of your spellcasting, like gaining spells known, etc. and therefore should be allowed.

On a side not, why would you swap out Dispel Magic, even after you got Greater Dispelling? Its still very possible to make the caster level checks, and you'd probably have more casts/day for Dispel Magic than Greater Dispelling.My opinion: Because sorcerers have too few spells known to devote 2 of them to spells that do the same thing.
Radablast
07-11-07, 02:54 PM On a side not, why would you swap out Dispel Magic, even after you got Greater Dispelling? Its still very possible to make the caster level checks, and you'd probably have more casts/day for Dispel Magic than Greater Dispelling.

Like PUCA says, the Sorcerer has too few spells to have redundant or simialr spells.

Thank you all for your responses, please continue the discussion if needed. :)
dorpond
07-11-07, 03:44 PM We know two facts about the MT(Per SRD):

1. When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously.
2. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

We know this fact about Sorcerers:
1. Under the SPELLS heading it states: Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows.

(FYI: Bards can also do this but a bit differently)

I would simply add yout MT to your Sorcerer/Bard level to determine if they can be switched out.

What hurt is it anyway really? I would never want to force my player to have a level 3 spell that is useless at level 16.

Does that sound right?
RGard
07-11-07, 08:21 PM We know two facts about the MT(Per SRD):

1. When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously.
2. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

We know this fact about Sorcerers:
1. Under the SPELLS heading it states: Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows.

(FYI: Bards can also do this but a bit differently)

I would simply add yout MT to your Sorcerer/Bard level to determine if they can be switched out.

What hurt is it anyway really? I would never want to force my player to have a level 3 spell that is useless at level 16.

Does that sound right?

Sounds like a better solution to me.
gbnogkfs
07-21-07, 01:01 PM if you read that quote really strictly, it does not say that you get any new spell known, either...

just ponder these two facts:

1) all the PrCs that have the "+1 spellcasting level" have slightly different spelling for what the whole gaming community consider being the description of the same ability (just compare the PrCs in the DMG!!!!)

2) this is an old question never really put to rest; I personally don't know the answer, but probably there is some Sage Ruling somewhere...

EDIT: oh, I forgot... I stand on the change side, as that feature is described under the "Spells" ability
Puca
07-23-07, 10:25 AM if you read that quote really strictly, it does not say that you get any new spell known, either...This at least was addressed in the 3.0 FAQ: You get the increased spells-known. It is an inherent part of casting. I think it is a sound argument to say the swapping-out spells is too. But like you said, it hasnt been explicitly addressed anywhere that I know of either.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Radablast 07-11-07, 02:32 PM	Greetings! Question: When a Sor/Clr/MT goes up a level in MT, is he still able to swap out a spell from his Sor spell list at even numbered levels? If so, how do you decide which level is the even numbered level? For example, lets say the PC is high enough to gain Greater Dispel Magic and no longer needs the 3rd level spell Dispel Magic, can he swap out the third level spell for a different one? Any supporting documentation would be great, if possible. :) Thank you!
rironin 07-11-07, 02:36 PM	Since the description of swapping spells at 4th level and every even-numbered level thereafter is part of the Spells class feature for the Sorcerer, and not some other class feature, then I believe that you are able to swap out spells when you gain the appropriate Mystic Theurge level. As for when, you have an "effective sorcerer level" - if you were a Sor 4/Clr 3/MT 1, for instance, you cast Spells as a level 5 sorcerer. With one more level of MT, you would cast spells as a level 6 sorcerer, and this would be your next "even numbered level" of sorcerer spellcasting, at which point you would be able to swap a spell.
zorgling25 07-11-07, 02:37 PM	When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day. Reading this strictly, I would say that no, you would not get to swap out spells. The ability to swap out spells is an ability exclusive to the Sorcerer (clerics, wizards and druids don't get it), and therefore counts as a class ability. Its up to you DM, ultimately though. On a side not, why would you swap out Dispel Magic, even after you got Greater Dispelling? Its still very possible to make the caster level checks, and you'd probably have more casts/day for Dispel Magic than Greater Dispelling.
rironin 07-11-07, 02:43 PM	Reading this strictly, I would say that no, you would not get to swap out spells. The ability to swap out spells is an ability exclusive to the Sorcerer (clerics, wizards and druids don't get it), and therefore counts as a class ability. Its up to you DM, ultimately though. On a side not, why would you swap out Dispel Magic, even after you got Greater Dispelling? Its still very possible to make the caster level checks, and you'd probably have more casts/day for Dispel Magic than Greater Dispelling.Hmm, you may be right. Didn't read it uber-closely. I guess it depends on how you read "gains new spells per day as if you had gained a level..." On the one hand, you could say that that means you only learn new spells and get new spells per day. But on the other hand, I think that a wizard mystic theurge would gain two new spells for his spellbook when he gained a level, would he not? That is a wizard-exclusive ability. The swapping is a part of how sorcerers gain new spells, similar to how wizards get those two spells in their spellbook when they gain a level. Personally, my instinct would be to take the entire "Spells" entry from the classes you're basing mystic theurge on, and effectively paste them into your class abilities as a mystic theurge. It seems like this "Spells" section always details the basic way the class gains spells, and lists other class abilities elsewhere. I'd be inclined to give the mystic theurge everything the "Spells" section includes from both classes - unless there's some class that breaks this pattern that I'm not aware of.
Puca 07-11-07, 02:47 PM	Strictly speaking, zorgling is correct. It does specifically say "even numbered sorcerer level" so it could be ruled as not applicable when you advance in a PrC. They arent, strictly speaking, sorcerer levels. I do agree with rironin though on how it should be interpreted. The ability to swap is a part of your spellcasting, like gaining spells known, etc. and therefore should be allowed. On a side not, why would you swap out Dispel Magic, even after you got Greater Dispelling? Its still very possible to make the caster level checks, and you'd probably have more casts/day for Dispel Magic than Greater Dispelling.My opinion: Because sorcerers have too few spells known to devote 2 of them to spells that do the same thing.
Radablast 07-11-07, 02:54 PM	On a side not, why would you swap out Dispel Magic, even after you got Greater Dispelling? Its still very possible to make the caster level checks, and you'd probably have more casts/day for Dispel Magic than Greater Dispelling. Like PUCA says, the Sorcerer has too few spells to have redundant or simialr spells. Thank you all for your responses, please continue the discussion if needed. :)
dorpond 07-11-07, 03:44 PM	We know two facts about the MT(Per SRD): 1. When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. 2. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. We know this fact about Sorcerers: 1. Under the SPELLS heading it states: Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. (FYI: Bards can also do this but a bit differently) I would simply add yout MT to your Sorcerer/Bard level to determine if they can be switched out. What hurt is it anyway really? I would never want to force my player to have a level 3 spell that is useless at level 16. Does that sound right?
RGard 07-11-07, 08:21 PM	We know two facts about the MT(Per SRD): 1. When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. 2. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. We know this fact about Sorcerers: 1. Under the SPELLS heading it states: Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. (FYI: Bards can also do this but a bit differently) I would simply add yout MT to your Sorcerer/Bard level to determine if they can be switched out. What hurt is it anyway really? I would never want to force my player to have a level 3 spell that is useless at level 16. Does that sound right? Sounds like a better solution to me.
gbnogkfs 07-21-07, 01:01 PM	if you read that quote really strictly, it does not say that you get any new spell known, either... just ponder these two facts: 1) all the PrCs that have the "+1 spellcasting level" have slightly different spelling for what the whole gaming community consider being the description of the same ability (just compare the PrCs in the DMG!!!!) 2) this is an old question never really put to rest; I personally don't know the answer, but probably there is some Sage Ruling somewhere... EDIT: oh, I forgot... I stand on the change side, as that feature is described under the "Spells" ability
Puca 07-23-07, 10:25 AM	if you read that quote really strictly, it does not say that you get any new spell known, either...This at least was addressed in the 3.0 FAQ: You get the increased spells-known. It is an inherent part of casting. I think it is a sound argument to say the swapping-out spells is too. But like you said, it hasnt been explicitly addressed anywhere that I know of either.