Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir_Chivalry 09-16-07, 02:12 PM	I'm planning on playing a mystic theurge sometime in the future. I'd like to know, what classes, feats, skills, other things should I consider for the character?
masterartisan 09-16-07, 02:22 PM	I'm planning on playing a mystic theurge sometime in the future. I'd like to know, what classes, feats, skills, other things should I consider for the character? practiced spellcaster! twice once for the arcane caster once for the divine. Practiced Spellcaster: Choose one of your spellcasting classes. The spells you cast from this class have +4 Caster level (up to your number of HD). This feat helps multiclassed characters.
Mordin 09-16-07, 06:54 PM	I second that notion, plus any of the reserve feats (Com. Mage) are great. Also sense your overall caster level is hurting Spell Penetration and Greater are always good.
dman11235 09-16-07, 07:29 PM	Ah, but your CL is up thanks to practiced spell caster. They don't hurt anyway. And I second the reserve feats. At level 20 you can have level 9 spells in two classes if you go with druid 3/wizard or wu jen 3/mistic theurge 4/arcane heirophant 10. Or just arcane 5/divine 5/mystic theurge 10 and then in epic take the epic mystic theurge progression.
StevenO 09-16-07, 11:20 PM	MT can be used with classes that offer advanced spellcasting (9th level spells in 10 levels) in some crazy combinations. If going the more conventional route I'd recommend looking a the Cloistered Cleric (UA, SRD) as an alternative to a full cleric. After completing MT at 16th level you're normally better off filling the remaining levels concentrating on one casting type allowing you to get a 17/13 casting split. Once you get into Epic the MT isn't so good as you only advance one casting type each level instead of both.
dman11235 09-16-07, 11:22 PM	Wait, what? I thought epic was still both. Checking now... Wow, that's dumb.
FrostHammer 09-17-07, 12:55 AM	I wonder if you can fit Ur priest somewhere in a MT build.
dman11235 09-17-07, 02:51 AM	It's divine.
goawayugh 09-17-07, 09:58 AM	I wonder if you can fit Ur priest somewhere in a MT build. You can. I have. It's nice (well maybe not for the PC's who will have to face him, *evil laugh*).
runestar 09-17-07, 10:07 AM	You could consider the archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3), thus allowing you to focus on int alone, rather than both int and wis.
Puca 09-17-07, 01:17 PM	Just another point of view on the Reserve Feats: Theyre very good at letting you "cast" all day long. BUT: You have a butt-load of spells already. Reserve Feats are powered by the appropriately-typed spell of the highest level: BUT: Youre several spell-levels behind straight casters. Even for straight casters, using a reserve feat means not using the typically better spell. And your spells are worse (based on max-level) than those of a straight caster. Shooting fire all day long sounds good, but it looses its luster when you do less damage than a torch. Id go crafting: You have access to so many spells, you can make anything you want. If you plan on trying to be offensive, your spells are going to have a lower DC than the other guys, so boosting them with feats is a good way to go. Quicken Spell: you have so many slots, you can afford to cast more than one per round.
dman11235 09-17-07, 01:47 PM	Um, you can't cast more than one quicken spell per round. Unless you mean casting more than one spell per round, then that's fine.
Puca 09-17-07, 02:19 PM	Um, you can't cast more than one quicken spell per round. Unless you mean casting more than one spell per round, then that's fine. Yeah, I just meant a regular spell and a quickened spell. Like one of the things MTs do well is buff: lots of low level spells and spells from both the arcane and divine disciplines. An MT with Quicken Spell can do this faster sending fully buffed fighters into melee a round or two sooner, or, if you have a primary caster in your party too, handle the buffing and free him up to start casting offensive or battlefield control spells that much sooner. Quicken is sort of a no-brainer feat for most casters who can use it, but it sucks up high-level spell slots so you can never use it as much as youd like and have your most powerful spells. With two lists, you can get around that limitation a little bit.
FrostHammer 09-21-07, 02:05 AM	You can. I have. It's nice (well maybe not for the PC's who will have to face him, *evil laugh*). Can you post your builds?
goawayugh 09-21-07, 07:11 AM	Can you post your builds? I'd be happy to, except that it is gestalt. Are you sure you still want to see it? PS: Yes, I know the suggested rule of gestalt is that you don't use duel progression classes. I gave my two PC's the option of allowing them, reminding them that I will most likely use it for the BBEG, and they opted for allowing the duel PrC's anyway (even though neither of them has taken a level in one...).
dman11235 09-21-07, 12:52 PM	Yes.
goawayugh 09-21-07, 01:02 PM	Ok. I will type it up in notepad first. I'm usually only on during the weekday's during the day, so I will most likely put it up here on Monday (just don't have enough time to do it today).
Sagetim 09-21-07, 09:06 PM	Just another point of view on the Reserve Feats: Theyre very good at letting you "cast" all day long. BUT: You have a butt-load of spells already. Reserve Feats are powered by the appropriately-typed spell of the highest level: BUT: Youre several spell-levels behind straight casters. Even for straight casters, using a reserve feat means not using the typically better spell. And your spells are worse (based on max-level) than those of a straight caster. Shooting fire all day long sounds good, but it looses its luster when you do less damage than a torch. Id go crafting: You have access to so many spells, you can make anything you want. If you plan on trying to be offensive, your spells are going to have a lower DC than the other guys, so boosting them with feats is a good way to go. Quicken Spell: you have so many slots, you can afford to cast more than one per round. crafting would be a nice way to go with a MT. Granted, if you really want to go crafting (and your dm allows the base class) Artificier would work much better. However, in a land where there's no artificiers, a MT could make some pretty badass items. Even mix arcane and divine components. Like a staff of fire that gives fireball, flame strike, etc. Or (if druid is the divine) produce flame gauntlets that let you be a pyromaniac all day long. Also worth mentioning: yes, practiced caster is a must have feat for the MT. Even at the first level of MT, your caster level for both your classes will be equal to your hit die. Meaning your Fireball will be mean (once you get it) your flame strike will be strong, and when you get access to spells, they'll be stronger than when most people gain access to the spell. You may be getting it later, but when you can get both fireball and cure serious wounds in the same level, I'd be willing to forgive.
Molot 09-23-07, 03:23 PM	Archivist+Wizzie has one little nice thing, besides all else - You can use one Boccob's Blessed Spell book for both classes. I'd suggest, however, builds with Druid. Then, you can take levels in both MT and arcane heirophant. You'll end up with some arcane/natural fluff, and you still will have up to 6 pre-epic (thus double casting) MT levels after going epic.
Sagetim 09-23-07, 05:14 PM	Archivist+Wizzie has one little nice thing, besides all else - You can use one Boccob's Blessed Spell book for both classes. I'd suggest, however, builds with Druid. Then, you can take levels in both MT and arcane heirophant. You'll end up with some arcane/natural fluff, and you still will have up to 6 pre-epic (thus double casting) MT levels after going epic. If your evil, go for ur priest. You'll be able to get 9th level casting of divine from the ur priest progression, then 9th level arcane from the 9 levels of arcane and 10 of mt. Of course, that would require being evil...
Molot 09-23-07, 06:29 PM	If your evil, go for ur priest.For non-good characters, Divine Crusader does just the same thing, but with extremely limited spell selection - one domain only.
goawayugh 09-25-07, 09:38 AM	Some of you wanted to see my build using Ur Priest and MT. Sorry it took so long for me to put it up here, I just forgot about it. After looking at it again, I realized that I didn't use MT, I used Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) instead (it is basically the same thing). Just a reminder:I'd be happy to, except that it is gestalt. Are you sure you still want to see it? PS: Yes, I know the suggested rule of gestalt is that you don't use duel progression classes. I gave my two PC's the option of allowing them, reminding them that I will most likely use it for the BBEG, and they opted for allowing the duel PrC's anyway (even though neither of them has taken a level in one...). Beguiler 15/Mindbender 1/ Spellthief 1/Druid 1/Ardent 2//Factotum 1/ Nomad 5/ Cerebremancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/cerebremancer.htm) 4/ Ur Priest 2/ Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) 8 Here's the breakdown: LE Human Level Classes increased Feats Special notes 1 Beguiler 1/Factotum 1 Able Learner, Iron Will 2 Beguiler 2/Nomad 1 Psicrystal Affinity Psicrystal personality: Nimble (+2 initiative) 3 Beguiler 3/Nomad 2 Spell Focus (evil) Advanced Learning: ? (1st) 4 Beguiler 4/Nomad 3 5 Beguiler 5/Nomad 4 Silent Spell 6 Mindbender 1/Nomad 5 Mindsight 7 Spellthief 1/Cerebremancer 1 8 Druid 1/Cerebremancer 2 Shapeshifting variant (using for stealth) 9 Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 3 Master Spellthief Mantles: Time (see below), Freedom (+10' speed) 10 Ardent 2/Cerebremancer 4 Mantle: Knowledge 11 Beguiler 6/Ur Priest 1 12 Beguiler 7/Ur Priest 2 Eschew Materials Advanced Learning: ? (6th) 13 Beguiler 8/Psychic Theurge 1 14 Beguiler 9/Psychic Theurge 2 15 Beguiler 10/Psychic Theurge 3 Rapid Metamagic, Still Spell 16 Beguiler 11/Psychic Theurge 4 Advanced Learning: ? (8th) 17 Beguiler 12/Psychic Theurge 5 18 Beguiler 13/Psychic Theurge 6 Extraordinary Concentration 19 Beguiler 14/Psychic Theurge 7 20 Beguiler 15/Psychic Theurge 8 Advanced Learning: ? (9th) Even though Beguiler is, by far, the biggest part of him, I think of him mostly as an Ur Priest. Notes: BAB: Who cares, he can cast divine power. Saves: Haven't figured the numbers yet, you do the math if you want. Arcane spells: 9th level, CL 20 Divine spells: 9th level, CL 20 (10 from Ur Priest, +1/2 from other casting classes (Beguiler)) Powers: 9th level, ML 17 Steal Spell: up to 9th level (because of Master Spellthief) Mindbender 1 + Mindsight: An essential part of any arcane casting build. Time Mantle: +2 initiative, can expend Psi Focus to delay damage for 1 round, in which he will teleport to safety. Factotum + Able Learner: This was taken mostly to make skill points less of a hassle for me. Advanced Learning: Haven't decided yet. I do use the Eclectic Learning variant form PHBII, so many options are open. I did not use flaws, even though I do allow them in my games, only because neither of the PC's have any flaws. I'm not entirely sure that I feel comfortable unleashing this demigod* upon my players. He would completely decimate them. At first, I was excited to make him, but he turned out much more powerful than I had expected in the beginning. *I don't mean demigod as in "Divine Rank 1-5", it is just an analogy to make this sentence sound better.
Puca 09-25-07, 11:04 AM	The most powerful way to go would be to take nine levels of wizard. At level nine you can easily have the knowledge prereqs for Ur Priest, and can meet the minimum ranks in Bluff as cross-class skill. At level 9, you will also meet the base save of +3 fortitude. Then you take 2 levels of ur-priest to meet the divine requirements, and 8 more levels of MT gives you full cleric casting ability of the ur-priest and the ability to also cast ninth-level arcane spells at character-level 19. If you wanted to get in faster, a one level dip into a class with Bluff as a class skill and good fort saves would let you meet the prereqs as soon as level 5. So wizard 4/swashbuckler1/ur-priest2 could qualify. With 8 levels of MT, you have full casting of ur-priest spells by level 15 and are casting 6th-level arcane as well. With 5 levels to go before epic, you can continue to advance in an arcane class and get 9th-level arcane by level 20. Edit: I didnt mean this as a comparison to goawayughs version. Not really using either gestalt of psionics, I couldnt. :) I was just throwing out ideas.
goawayugh 09-25-07, 11:17 AM	I know I could optimize him further, but the classes he has are a lot for flavor too. Yes, Wizard would be more powerful. I know I could get into Ur Priest much earlier (his original build had him in Ur Priest at 6th level), but he will be appearing in the game at 20th level, so at what levels he takes which classes is irrelevent. He already has full Ur Priest casting at CL 20, full Beguiler casting at CL20, and almost full manifesting at ML 17. I was looking at the end result, not at which level he gains different abilities.
madbliza 09-25-07, 02:13 PM	When I did the Mystic Theurge, I dipped into a level of Geomancer so that my DC's stayed with my strongest stat. Of course, it gave me cool green hair too.
goawayugh 09-25-07, 02:27 PM	When I did the Mystic Theurge, I dipped into a level of Geomancer so that my DC's stayed with my strongest stat. Of course, it gave me cool green hair too. There is a max spell level on that which scales with your Geomancer level. If it was a one level dip, then it would only work on your 0 level spells.
madbliza 09-25-07, 02:55 PM	If that's the case, my DM let me get away with some serious BS.
goawayugh 09-25-07, 03:06 PM	It's not just up to the DM to make sure everything is working the way it should. PCs should keep track of that kind of stuff too.
madbliza 09-25-07, 06:38 PM	True, but if I approach the DM and say, "Does this work like this?" And he goes, "Yes it does." Then its not my fault.
Sagetim 09-26-07, 02:19 AM	True, but if I approach the DM and say, "Does this work like this?" And he goes, "Yes it does." Then its not my fault. This is true. Just don't show him the thread if you ever plan on using that character again. If you do want to show him the thread, then make sure you've given them some food stuffs to convince them not to strangle you afterwards.
goawayugh 09-26-07, 06:59 AM	True, but if I approach the DM and say, "Does this work like this?" And he goes, "Yes it does." Then its not my fault. Acceptable. This is true. Just don't show him the thread if you ever plan on using that character again. If you do want to show him the thread, then make sure you've given them some food stuffs to convince them not to strangle you afterwards. Not acceptable. This, I would consider cheating. There is a difference between powergaming, munchkining, and cheating. If you are aware that you, and your DM, have been interpreting a rule the wrong way (in your favor) and you keep this information from him, you're cheating. Unless, of course, you were kidding. In that case....haha....sorry, I just don't find cheating funny.