Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lokai 03-20-08, 01:33 AM	So over past 2 weeks decided to play a mystic theurge with some friends via maptools, and staring at class and realizing how bland it is. All get is +1 arcane and divine casting ability SO i asked myself " HEY can i keep theme and make it better?" while i doubt be using this for my current game i was bored and wrote this up. Probably alot of grammical and spelling errors so pleae excuse those, but like some thoughts on what people think. To strong? still weak? can it be fine tuned? i still say MT needs somthing more then caster levels and this is my atempt at giving it just that ^^. The Mystic Theurge Redux Description: The mystic theurge are arcane or divine casters that choose to walk two roads at once. Some are worshipers of gods of magic, or an arcane caster that hears calling of his god or goddess. No matter what walk of life the theurge comes from, one thing remains true above all else, they strive to master and worship magic of all kinds. Requirements: Ability to cast level 1 arcane and divine spells. Knowledge arcana and religion 6 ranks. Class Features Armor and Weapon Proficiency: mystic theurges do not gain any weapon or armor proficiencys. Spells: Mystic theurge chooses one arcane class and one divine class that he belongs to, and continues to gain spells per day as if he had advanced in those classes. However he does not gain any of those classes class abilities, nor does any of his abilities he currently has advance in any way. Theurgeic Magic I: at level one a mystic theurge learns that be it divine or arcane magic is a force with in him he can control to his whim. A mystic theurge can choose to use a diivne spell in an arcane spell slot or an arcane spell in a divine spell slot, or if he has a spontanious casting class(like a sorcerer) he can cast any spell he knows using a divine or arcane spell per day. However, can not say spontaniously cast a spell in a divine spell slot using a sorcerer(or any spontaneous casting class) spell per day. Theurgeic Magic II: he mystic theurge learns that what applies for his divine or arcane class can easily be used for his other divine or arcane class. Any feat or magic item that effects your divine or arcane class also effects your other divine or arcane class.( for example if you take practiced caster for your cleric levels, this feat now effect your wizard levels as well). Theurgic Magic III: Delving deeper into there magic a mystic theurge learns how to manipulate arcane and divine magic in deep ways. When a theurge accesses this ability he learns a new metamagic feat, using this feat the mystic theurge can combine one divine spell with one arcane spell for a combined effect. The two spells must both be non-combative or damaging, or a buff ect must be similar. In addition damaging effects add ½ of second chosen spells damage on top of first spells effect, any secondary effects of ethier spell occur at same time. When combine two damaging spells together you first choose which spell use for type of damage, you think add both spells secondary effects to the spell(such as flamestrikes ½ divine damage) and use highest of two's spell level for the new spells level. The damage the spell does is increased by one die grade( so if its a fireballs 1d6/lvl becomes 1d8/lvl) but not exceeding d12 damage. If combine two effect spells both of spells effects trigger at same time, and add a +2 DC to the spell, using higher spells level for DC. So thus if combined baleful transposition and charm person the effect of both would trigger, it would require a save for each effect at a +2 DC using baleful transposition's spell level for DC( so 10+2+prime stat+2) for the effect. When combine 2 buffs into one spell you combine both buff effects into one, using spell with shortest duration as new duration. This is an extrodinary ability used as a swift action, capable of being used once per day per 2 mystic theurge levels. Theurgic Magic IV: Delving even deeper into there art, mystic theurge learns how to effectivly combine arcane and divine magic when trying to beat some one's Spell resistance or making any caster checks. When ever you make a spell resistance check or a caster check of any kind you take two classes you chose to qualify you for your mystic theurge class and add it to your mystic theurge levels. For example, if your 3 wizard/3 cleric/8 mystic theruge you add 3+3+8=14 for any caster check or by passing resistances. Theurgic Magic V: Using this ability a mystic theurge is able to consume a spell per day or a spell slot(losing what ever spell is in slot at time) to instantly apply effects of a metamagic feat to ethier a divine or arcane spell. Theurgic Magic VI: The mystic theurge learns to combine divine casting with there arcane casting in such a way that can channel 2 spells at same time. However one spell must be arcane and other spell must be divine and you must spend a full round action to do so. But because requires so much focus can not cast defensivly while preforming this ability, and you get an additional -4 to all concentration checks when channeling this ability. Theurgic Secret: When a mystic theurge delves deep into his art he learns to manipulate his magic in special ways. Each time you attain this ability gain a bonus metamagic feat. Level 1 Theurgic Magic I, +1 existing arcane and divine spell casting class. 2. Theurgic Magic II, +1 existing arcane and divine spell casting class 3 Theurgic Secret, +1 existing arcane and divine spell casting class 4.Theurgic Magic III, +1 existing arcane and divine spell casting class. 5.Theurgic Secret, +1 existing arcane and divine spell casting class 6. Theurgic Magic IV, +1 existing arcane and divine casting class 7 Theurgic Secret, +1 existing arcane and divine casting class 8.Theurgic Magic V, +1 existing arcane and divine casting class 9 Theurgic Secret, +1 existing arcane and divine casting class 10. Theurgic Magic VI, Theurgic Secret, +1 existing arcane and divine casting class this was just for fun i don't care if hate it or love it just give me feedback on what ya think.
PurinaDragonChow 03-21-08, 11:26 AM	Interesting. If I read it right, you can enter the class as early as 4th level. I think it might be a good idea to make the requirements such that you you can't take your first level until 6th. You could choose to keep one spellcasting class pretty strong (only lose 1 caster level) or mix it up. I tend to think that a dual casting class is balanced as long as one class lags behind the other by a few levels. Also, what if the class had more levels, so that if you enter it as soon as you qualify, you can stay in it all the way to 20th level? I think you could probably just spread the existing abilities out over the levels and continue the spell progression.
Lokai 03-21-08, 12:20 PM	well that'd make it a base class, by making it like it is now removes the bland feel of class. Because have to take practiced caster twice usually i removed that to save a feat. In addition i wanted feel of a caster thats not just using divine and arcane but literally mixing them. I removed the requirement for 2nd level spells so that not hurting so much instead of lagging 2 spell levels behind only lagging maybe 1. In end though still end up like... 5 wizard/5 cleric 10 MT just instead of waiting till 7-8th level to get 3rd level spells should ave them maybe a level behind a pure caster.Problem with current MT is that, from 1-15 or so your so far behind pure caster in spells known and spell levels you can cast that its not practical. For example a wizard 10 can cast what 5th or 6th level spells, a wizard 3/cleric 3/MT4 can only cast 4th at best nearly 2 spell levels behind a pure caster. Staying 1 behind is good enough since at 15 have to go back and take 1 level of each to hit 20 or some other class(in fact considering banning druids so can't cheese with arcane heirophant). In end class WILL end same spells per day and spells know and levels known that you can cast, just way i've done it your not useless through early levels. Still working on the class a bit, however i find that giving class somthing that makes it stand out a bit more is essential in its present state no reason to take mystic theurge at all.
StevenO 03-21-08, 02:03 PM	No. Just dropping the spellcasting requirement down from 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells is a HUGE power boost. Now instead of trading in three casting levels of one type for 13 of the other you are trading in one for 11 casting levels. Without even considering your special abilities consider how this looks: Cleric1/Wizard2/yourMT10 has casting like a Wizard 12 AND Cleric 11 at only 13th level!! Oh my, you are one casting level back (and two bonus feats) when compared to a straight wizard of your level but you get all the benefits of starting as a cleric (Domains, two good saves, better hp) PLUS 11 casting levels. If this alone doesn't convice you how broken your redux is nothing can. As simple and boring as the MT is if it were much more powerful it would become truely crazy unless you also made it much more restrictive. The only things I'd even consider changing on the MT are the HD (should use at least the average d6 to split the typical arcane d4 and divine d8) and possibly increase the BAB to 3/4. If you insist on a MT remake you should follow the examples set forth in the Complete Mage; I could see doing a divine/arcane version of the Ultimate Magus but the abilities need a little work.
Lokai 03-21-08, 04:39 PM	No. Just dropping the spellcasting requirement down from 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells is a HUGE power boost. Now instead of trading in three casting levels of one type for 13 of the other you are trading in one for 11 casting levels. Without even considering your special abilities consider how this looks: Cleric1/Wizard2/yourMT10 has casting like a Wizard 12 AND Cleric 11 at only 13th level!! Oh my, you are one casting level back (and two bonus feats) when compared to a straight wizard of your level but you get all the benefits of starting as a cleric (Domains, two good saves, better hp) PLUS 11 casting levels. If this alone doesn't convice you how broken your redux is nothing can. As simple and boring as the MT is if it were much more powerful it would become truely crazy unless you also made it much more restrictive. The only things I'd even consider changing on the MT are the HD (should use at least the average d6 to split the typical arcane d4 and divine d8) and possibly increase the BAB to 3/4. If you insist on a MT remake you should follow the examples set forth in the Complete Mage; I could see doing a divine/arcane version of the Ultimate Magus but the abilities need a little work. and at same time if its done other way, your so far behind in casting that your by most people's standards considered useless. For example, ask anyone done MT what level have level 3 spells, talking 9th-10th level when a pure caster has that at level 5. In long run of the game a pure caster WILL pull ahead still. Only thing lower requirement does is insure that a MT isn't lagging behind at start. Insures that he can still heal when needed buff, or cast offensive spells as needed and not be casting level 2 spells against a CR 10 creature. Once hit 10 levels of MT you slow down again and pure caster pulls ahead. Big idea behind this version of MT is that when hit 20 still at same base level as you were before, only now got some class features. What i mean by still at same level is for example a level 5 cleric/5 wizard 10 MT with current DMG mystic theurge at end is considered 15th level caster in both. my version as a 5 cleric/ 5 wizard/ 10 MT your STILL a 15th level caster in each. Big point is in long run of it, still the same at end, just don't struggle through first 10 levels. good example of what i've done is Red Mage from final fantasy. Through start of game a red mage is amazing he has heals, offense, and heavy armor happily casts and fights and does great! as game progresses and hit toward end game he slows way down, and other pure casters pull ahead of him and are stronger spell for spell. I have done same basic thing strengthend them in those starting levels, in fact ONLY ability in my version am considering pulling are free metamagic feats since 5 free metamagic feats. As for hp, no hp is good low base hp, low base attack, which is part of penalty for studing both kinds of magic.
StevenO 03-21-08, 05:46 PM	Dropping the casting level requirement as this remake does alone doesn't change how a Clr5/Wiz5/Mt10 looks at the end compared with the core MT. The BIG problem is that now you can look at a Clr1/Wiz9/MT10 which is only one casting level behind a straight wizard but adds all the support casting of a cleric 11. Lowering the casting requirement certainly does make it MUCH stronger at low levels but it also removes what keeps it from being overpowered at higher levels. Unless a player has no interest in optimizing will you EVER see a theruge type caster end up with an even casting split. The MT may look like it should be 15/15 at 20th level but 17/13 is FAR more likely and the same holds true for the dual casting classes found in the Complete Mage. The only exceptions to this are the Arcane Heirophant because you just stack on MT levels for a possible 17/17 casting and the True Necromancer because it is 14 levels of not quite full dual casting progression. If you want a MT with class features BESIDES spellcasting you must make the class even more restrictive.
Lokai 03-21-08, 06:49 PM	Dropping the casting level requirement as this remake does alone doesn't change how a Clr5/Wiz5/Mt10 looks at the end compared with the core MT. The BIG problem is that now you can look at a Clr1/Wiz9/MT10 which is only one casting level behind a straight wizard but adds all the support casting of a cleric 11. Lowering the casting requirement certainly does make it MUCH stronger at low levels but it also removes what keeps it from being overpowered at higher levels. Unless a player has no interest in optimizing will you EVER see a theruge type caster end up with an even casting split. The MT may look like it should be 15/15 at 20th level but 17/13 is FAR more likely and the same holds true for the dual casting classes found in the Complete Mage. The only exceptions to this are the Arcane Heirophant because you just stack on MT levels for a possible 17/17 casting and the True Necromancer because it is 14 levels of not quite full dual casting progression. If you want a MT with class features BESIDES spellcasting you must make the class even more restrictive. so your saying a level 19 wizard and 11 cleric so basically 9th level wizard spells and 6th level cleric. I can see verstility in this, but giving up alot of late game cleric spells. Agian this is major problem with MT like alot are saying, never get level 9 spells and thats a huge thing however i do see what your saying. Casting heals and all wizard spells is pretty amazing, adding addional restrictions is probably a good idea. My intention however was to take MT and make it useful, in its present state only good when your 20 i think i will ask my DM to reduce level requirement on my MT i am playing up to and see how it effects the group as a test. But when look at class by itself its alright, its when start stacking it with A.Heirophant and true necro things can get ify. However i will point this out it is DM's job to prevent munchking like that. for example we can both agree that 5 cleric/5 wizard/10 MT is pretty ok even with changes i made, but when see somthing like you suggested 1 cleric/3 wizard/10 MT/ 6 Arcane Heirophant thats when things get problematic. Its DM's job to step in and just explain that can't have two classes that are vastly differant. One is for druids one is for clerics, one rule would fix it as a house rule is somthing like " can only take 1 duel progression class in any build" would stop that. I find alot of DM's just let players get away with to much, i put my foot down and personally only aspect of this class i find ify is free metamagic. Edit: and what changes would you suggest?
StevenO 03-21-08, 10:54 PM	so your saying a level 19 wizard and 11 cleric so basically 9th level wizard spells and 6th level cleric. I can see verstility in this, but giving up alot of late game cleric spells. Agian this is major problem with MT like alot are saying, never get level 9 spells and thats a huge thing however i do see what your saying. Casting heals and all wizard spells is pretty amazing, adding addional restrictions is probably a good idea. My intention however was to take MT and make it useful, in its present state only good when your 20 i think i will ask my DM to reduce level requirement on my MT i am playing up to and see how it effects the group as a test. But when look at class by itself its alright, its when start stacking it with A.Heirophant and true necro things can get ify. However i will point this out it is DM's job to prevent munchking like that. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP LATE GAME SPELLS THEN PLAY A SINGLE CLASS CHARACTER. I am trying to point out that I could play a wizard taking a single level dip into cleric and basically suffer NO loss of wizard casting ability in exchange for ELEVEN levels of clerical casting. If getting six ranks in Knowledge(Religion) wasn't so hard this would work even better for a Sorcerer who would get massive numbers of Turn attempts for a high CHA which could be burn on Divine Feats. More later but first. for example we can both agree that 5 cleric/5 wizard/10 MT is pretty ok even with changes i made, Having that split at 20th level is not something I'd be shooting for. The changes you want however make things broken early on. As I keep saying you start cleric (it is the more survivable class) and that is the only level of wizard casting a character needs to give up until they reach 15th level. Sure the spells are delayed one level but then you have all those clerical casting levels to fall back on. At level 14 (Clr1/Wiz3/MT*10) you know two fewer spells and cast one less 6th ant 7th level spell than a wizard of your level but 11 levels of divine casting to make up for that which includes 6th level spells. Ending up with a 15/15 casting split at 20th level has never been an issue because while most theruge type classes come close to that the optimal choice always favors one side to the other. The MT is fine as it is. It already contributes to a large number "broken" builds when combined with advanced casting progression PrCs. True it is boring as written but that doesn't change its use. For what you want you should just see if you can talk the DM into playing a gestalt character. The rules are in the UA and amount to combining the abilities of two classes into a single character. The system is designed with a much higher power level in mind and such characters should NOT be played alongside normal characters. Suggesting changes is very difficult when I don't know what you expect. Part of that is I expect you want too much than is good for anything resembling game balance. If you are trying to make an arcane/divine hybred that doesn't have to sacrific so much to both casting sides I'd suggest modifying the Ultimate Magus (and dropping the MT to prevent the 18/14 casting split). What to change: Prereqs: Add Magic or Spell Domain, Add Knowledge (Religion) 4 Change Spellcasting to 1st level arcane or divine spells and 2nd level for the other Class abilities: Spellcasting leave unchanged except alter spontaneous/prepared for arcane/divine Arcane Spell Power: Require turn attempt as a free action to empower any spell cast as such. Expanded Knowledge: Prepare an Arcane spell known of the listed level as your domain spell and cast it as a divine spell.
Lokai 03-24-08, 01:33 AM	well know not posted in some time but yea after discussing it with close D&D buddies and reviewing it in my head i do agree i went overboard, though my intention orginally was to make it more viable for sorcerers/shugenja/spirit shamans, i suppose creating a version of ultimate magus designed around spontanous casting instead might be better, dunno thanks for input though appeciate it.
teshen 03-24-08, 12:51 PM	. . . As simple and boring as the MT is if it were much more powerful it would become truely crazy unless you also made it much more restrictive. The only things I'd even consider changing on the MT are the HD (should use at least the average d6 to split the typical arcane d4 and divine d8) and possibly increase the BAB to 3/4. If you insist on a MT remake you should follow the examples set forth in the Complete Mage; I could see doing a divine/arcane version of the Ultimate Magus but the abilities need a little work. I'd lean toward d6 and a handful of variable class features on the mystic theurge... think eldritch disciple. I think a ultimate magus derived version could be cool, too. Make it so that you can emphasize either the divine or arcane and lose dual casting on about 3 levels (just a single casting advancement there) and, again, add some variable features... and you're probably good.
bluedsteel 03-24-08, 02:20 PM	Ummm... MT effectively gets 2 caster levels per level. And you want to give it more stuff and make it easier to access? What's wrong with your brain? And a lot of your magics are broken. Magic II, at a quick glance, breaks all kinds of feats and items that are specifically designed to only work with one kind of casting. Your magic III gives an interesting metamagic feat... for no metamagic cost(!), that can be used as a swift action?!? Properly built, a character could have this thing 7-8 times per day! Magic IV means practiced spellcaster, even though broken by magic II, is worthless since you're pretty much guaranteed to never lose a CL check ever again. CL is applied to the spell type used for a reason. Magic V... HOLY MOTHER OF GOBLINKIND! I can now burn a lvl 1 spell and instantly apply persistent spell?!? If (as I surmise) this is like the sudden metamagic feats, this is broken beyond belief. Hmmm... persistent heightened Shapechange for two lvl 1 spells, or even cantrips? Yes please! Magic VI breaks summoning forever... hmm, I can cast Summon Elemental Swarm and Summon Elemental Monolith simultaneously, as a full-round action? Let me think about that. YES! Just at a quick glance, the Magics, generally, are just... just... :uh-huh: :shocked: :OMG! :drool: :evillaugh :king: :bravo: And all of this is for a class that already has an extremely powerful ability - namely, dual casting progression? Just... just build Pun-Pun. You'll break the game a few levels earlier. :uh-huh: :surrender