Mystic Theurge, Ultimate Magus interaction [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mystic Theurge, Ultimate Magus interaction [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nighzmarquls
07-23-07, 04:51 AM If you have a Level in a Prestige Class Such as Ultimate Magus (Complete Mage) or Mystic Theurge (Dungeon Masters Guide) then could you take a level in another prestige class which gave you +1 level spells per day in already existing spell casting class to add +1 level spells per day to mystic theurge and there by add a level of spell casting ability to each class associated with mystic theurge?
essentially getting two levels of spellcasting for 1 level of spellcasting in Another class then mystic theurge?

and by that logic, if so could you attach mystic theurge to ultimate magus (as an arcane spellcasting class) and for each level in mystic theurge or another class which mystic theurge is attached too then gain three spellcasting levels for each level?
TheAnthroDM
07-23-07, 05:02 AM To quote the Skingrad Alchemist
Let's assume..... "No."
Jungingen
07-23-07, 06:13 AM No.

Mystic Theurge and Ultimate Magus have no spellcasting capability.

They advance the spellcasting abilities of one or two spellcasting classes which you had prior to taking your level of MT/UM.

Taking another PrC after that advances one or both of those original spellcasting classes further.

About the best you're going to get is CL 17 in two classes at 20th level, plus or minus things like Practiced Spellcaster, etc.
Nighzmarquls
07-23-07, 06:29 AM Isn't their spell casting ability that of the classes which they inherit from/augment though?

Or has there been a more complete/comprehensive definition of what an 'existing spell casting class' is?

if so an amendment to my above inquiry would be a clearer definition of what that means?
TheAnthroDM
07-23-07, 06:52 AM It doesn't work. All plus "+1 to existing spellcasting class" stack with each other, and draw from the progression of the base class. You cannot advance the spellcasting of the mystic theurge because the mystic theurge has no spellcasting ability, but instead advanced that of two base classes. I believe this is in the FAQ but I'm not sure.
Nighzmarquls
07-23-07, 07:59 AM It doesn't work. All plus "+1 to existing spellcasting class" stack with each other, and draw from the progression of the base class. You cannot advance the spellcasting of the mystic theurge because the mystic theurge has no spellcasting ability, but instead advanced that of two base classes. I believe this is in the FAQ but I'm not sure.

I have gone through both of the official FAQs and have not found a reference to this yet.

Your standing on it makes sense and the over all ruling of a DM is the last case but I've had games get snagged for several hours while arguments and discussion occur on things that there are clear and specific rules for.
(when everyone is in a good mood this can even be alot of fun)

Is there another source I could check ?
The_Shaman
07-23-07, 08:11 AM I'm not sure - there is probably a Sage answer somewhere, but I do not know where.

The problem with UMagus, the Theurge, and others is that they only continue another progression and do not grant one themselves. Where the class gives its own progression, and it is a good one - Sublime Chord, Ur-priest, Nar demonbinder and others being the prime suspects - then you can use another PrC to improve that. The Archmage, for example, counts for your levels in whatever class grants you a spellcasting progression. Unfortunately, the wording in the SRD is rather vague.
lion93
07-23-07, 02:31 PM You're wishing for 'more wishes.' That way lies madness.
StevenO
07-23-07, 07:16 PM Example of why "+1 level of spellcasting" only apply to classes with actual progressions.

Character has PrC 1 that gives +1 arcane spellcasting.
Character then takes MT or UM both of which grant +1 Arcane casting plus something else.
Now if I apply the MT bonus to PrC 1 that gives me another +1 which I apply back to MT which set up an upward spiral that gives me unlimited spellcasting.
Jungingen
07-23-07, 07:42 PM Check it out, yo. I'm flowing straight from the survivin' scrolls! Meaning the SRD, of course.

When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously.

The bits that I emphasized are important. Since you're gaining spells AS IF you had ALSO gained a level in a spellcasting class, we know that MT has no spellcasting ability which can later be enhanced.

And seriously, son, if your idea worked then the CO boards would be eating it up. They would already have an Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge/True Necromancer/Ultimate Magus/Cerebromancer build with all the spells and powers of a 67th Wizard, a 55th Favored Soul and a 32nd Psion. Actually they'd probably use Ardent instead. But never you mind!

The point is "no."

However, if you really want to be a 97th-level Sorcerer, look up the Hive Mind builds on the CO boards. That's about the wildest caster level scaling that you can get legally.
Nighzmarquls
07-23-07, 07:43 PM Except that in the rules it DOES say that you must have class that you have before taking the prestige class.

so you cannot do a recursive addition of classes through that method because how would you have a mystic theurge or ultimate magus before taking it? the problem I have is what happens when you have both of them?

The question should possibly be clarified that the increase in spell-level I'm referring to is getting 1 in EACH class of the base divine, spontaneous arcane and prepared classes used for mystic theurge and ultimate magus by using 1 level mystic theurge to level up ultimate magus and a divine class and the two levels from ultimate magus to level the spontaneous and prepared arcane classes.

If this is viable you could have the casting ability in spells of a level 11 prepared arcane, level 10 spontaneous arcane, level 13 divine by level 18 which is not too much more powerful then a pure mystic theurge but is still significantly more powerful.
Check it out, yo. I'm flowing straight from the survivin' scrolls! Meaning the SRD, of course.

The bits that I emphasized are important. Since you're gaining spells AS IF you had ALSO gained a level in a spellcasting class, we know that MT has no spellcasting ability which can later be enhanced.

And seriously, son, if your idea worked then the CO boards would be eating it up. They would already have an Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge/True Necromancer/Ultimate Magus/Cerebromancer build with all the spells and powers of a 67th Wizard, a 55th Favored Soul and a 32nd Psion. Actually they'd probably use Ardent instead. But never you mind!

The point is "no."

However, if you really want to be a 97th-level Sorcerer, look up the Hive Mind builds on the CO boards. That's about the wildest caster level scaling that you can get legally.

Actually I was curious if it was possible to expand the types of spells/number of spells cast not the over all level of spells cast. However though that information states it levels as if you gained spellcasting levels in another class, that information is stored and presented under the spell casting section of the prestige class. thus its spell casting is that of the extra levels of a previous class.
Hsien
07-23-07, 08:18 PM This was just covered in the Magic and Spells forum as well:

Take Jungingen's source quote:
Quote:
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously.

UM provides spell levels to other classes and does not have it's own spell list or spell progression chart; therefore MT cannot be applied to that PrC. The spell level benefits of UM/MT have to be applied to a caster class/PrC that has a spell progression chart.
Ex: Take the +1 level provided by the MT. Now add that to the spell progression chart listed under UM....there is none, so that combination is invalid, so that + 1 spell level bonus from MT must continue to filter down to one of the arcane or spontaneous base character classes.

There are PrC's that UM/MT could apply towards, essentially any PrC that has it's own spell list/spell progresssion chart...take Assassin for example.
Nighzmarquls
07-23-07, 08:40 PM Okay Thanks! do you know where on the magic forum this was brought up?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nighzmarquls 07-23-07, 04:51 AM	If you have a Level in a Prestige Class Such as Ultimate Magus (Complete Mage) or Mystic Theurge (Dungeon Masters Guide) then could you take a level in another prestige class which gave you +1 level spells per day in already existing spell casting class to add +1 level spells per day to mystic theurge and there by add a level of spell casting ability to each class associated with mystic theurge? essentially getting two levels of spellcasting for 1 level of spellcasting in Another class then mystic theurge? and by that logic, if so could you attach mystic theurge to ultimate magus (as an arcane spellcasting class) and for each level in mystic theurge or another class which mystic theurge is attached too then gain three spellcasting levels for each level?
TheAnthroDM 07-23-07, 05:02 AM	To quote the Skingrad Alchemist Let's assume..... "No."
Jungingen 07-23-07, 06:13 AM	No. Mystic Theurge and Ultimate Magus have no spellcasting capability. They advance the spellcasting abilities of one or two spellcasting classes which you had prior to taking your level of MT/UM. Taking another PrC after that advances one or both of those original spellcasting classes further. About the best you're going to get is CL 17 in two classes at 20th level, plus or minus things like Practiced Spellcaster, etc.
Nighzmarquls 07-23-07, 06:29 AM	Isn't their spell casting ability that of the classes which they inherit from/augment though? Or has there been a more complete/comprehensive definition of what an 'existing spell casting class' is? if so an amendment to my above inquiry would be a clearer definition of what that means?
TheAnthroDM 07-23-07, 06:52 AM	It doesn't work. All plus "+1 to existing spellcasting class" stack with each other, and draw from the progression of the base class. You cannot advance the spellcasting of the mystic theurge because the mystic theurge has no spellcasting ability, but instead advanced that of two base classes. I believe this is in the FAQ but I'm not sure.
Nighzmarquls 07-23-07, 07:59 AM	It doesn't work. All plus "+1 to existing spellcasting class" stack with each other, and draw from the progression of the base class. You cannot advance the spellcasting of the mystic theurge because the mystic theurge has no spellcasting ability, but instead advanced that of two base classes. I believe this is in the FAQ but I'm not sure. I have gone through both of the official FAQs and have not found a reference to this yet. Your standing on it makes sense and the over all ruling of a DM is the last case but I've had games get snagged for several hours while arguments and discussion occur on things that there are clear and specific rules for. (when everyone is in a good mood this can even be alot of fun) Is there another source I could check ?
The_Shaman 07-23-07, 08:11 AM	I'm not sure - there is probably a Sage answer somewhere, but I do not know where. The problem with UMagus, the Theurge, and others is that they only continue another progression and do not grant one themselves. Where the class gives its own progression, and it is a good one - Sublime Chord, Ur-priest, Nar demonbinder and others being the prime suspects - then you can use another PrC to improve that. The Archmage, for example, counts for your levels in whatever class grants you a spellcasting progression. Unfortunately, the wording in the SRD is rather vague.
lion93 07-23-07, 02:31 PM	You're wishing for 'more wishes.' That way lies madness.
StevenO 07-23-07, 07:16 PM	Example of why "+1 level of spellcasting" only apply to classes with actual progressions. Character has PrC 1 that gives +1 arcane spellcasting. Character then takes MT or UM both of which grant +1 Arcane casting plus something else. Now if I apply the MT bonus to PrC 1 that gives me another +1 which I apply back to MT which set up an upward spiral that gives me unlimited spellcasting.
Jungingen 07-23-07, 07:42 PM	Check it out, yo. I'm flowing straight from the survivin' scrolls! Meaning the SRD, of course. When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. The bits that I emphasized are important. Since you're gaining spells AS IF you had ALSO gained a level in a spellcasting class, we know that MT has no spellcasting ability which can later be enhanced. And seriously, son, if your idea worked then the CO boards would be eating it up. They would already have an Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge/True Necromancer/Ultimate Magus/Cerebromancer build with all the spells and powers of a 67th Wizard, a 55th Favored Soul and a 32nd Psion. Actually they'd probably use Ardent instead. But never you mind! The point is "no." However, if you really want to be a 97th-level Sorcerer, look up the Hive Mind builds on the CO boards. That's about the wildest caster level scaling that you can get legally.
Nighzmarquls 07-23-07, 07:43 PM	Except that in the rules it DOES say that you must have class that you have before taking the prestige class. so you cannot do a recursive addition of classes through that method because how would you have a mystic theurge or ultimate magus before taking it? the problem I have is what happens when you have both of them? The question should possibly be clarified that the increase in spell-level I'm referring to is getting 1 in EACH class of the base divine, spontaneous arcane and prepared classes used for mystic theurge and ultimate magus by using 1 level mystic theurge to level up ultimate magus and a divine class and the two levels from ultimate magus to level the spontaneous and prepared arcane classes. If this is viable you could have the casting ability in spells of a level 11 prepared arcane, level 10 spontaneous arcane, level 13 divine by level 18 which is not too much more powerful then a pure mystic theurge but is still significantly more powerful. Check it out, yo. I'm flowing straight from the survivin' scrolls! Meaning the SRD, of course. The bits that I emphasized are important. Since you're gaining spells AS IF you had ALSO gained a level in a spellcasting class, we know that MT has no spellcasting ability which can later be enhanced. And seriously, son, if your idea worked then the CO boards would be eating it up. They would already have an Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge/True Necromancer/Ultimate Magus/Cerebromancer build with all the spells and powers of a 67th Wizard, a 55th Favored Soul and a 32nd Psion. Actually they'd probably use Ardent instead. But never you mind! The point is "no." However, if you really want to be a 97th-level Sorcerer, look up the Hive Mind builds on the CO boards. That's about the wildest caster level scaling that you can get legally. Actually I was curious if it was possible to expand the types of spells/number of spells cast not the over all level of spells cast. However though that information states it levels as if you gained spellcasting levels in another class, that information is stored and presented under the spell casting section of the prestige class. thus its spell casting is that of the extra levels of a previous class.
Hsien 07-23-07, 08:18 PM	This was just covered in the Magic and Spells forum as well: Take Jungingen's source quote: Quote: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. UM provides spell levels to other classes and does not have it's own spell list or spell progression chart; therefore MT cannot be applied to that PrC. The spell level benefits of UM/MT have to be applied to a caster class/PrC that has a spell progression chart. Ex: Take the +1 level provided by the MT. Now add that to the spell progression chart listed under UM....there is none, so that combination is invalid, so that + 1 spell level bonus from MT must continue to filter down to one of the arcane or spontaneous base character classes. There are PrC's that UM/MT could apply towards, essentially any PrC that has it's own spell list/spell progresssion chart...take Assassin for example.
Nighzmarquls 07-23-07, 08:40 PM	Okay Thanks! do you know where on the magic forum this was brought up?